voicing your opinion?
Brian and Kathy Stamp
If you are on another email list or group and something like spanking comes up, do you try to voice your concerns or opinions on it? I just did because it seemed to be the norm on a board when discussing a behavioural issue and I wanted the posters to know that there are others who feel differently even if it's not the "norm" for the group.
I'm wondering now if it was wise, as I wait for the fall out.
Curious how you all handle things like that.
Kathy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm wondering now if it was wise, as I wait for the fall out.
Curious how you all handle things like that.
Kathy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-=-If you are on another email list or group and something like spanking
comes up, do you try to voice your concerns or opinions on it? -=-
I always do.
<< I'm wondering now if it was wise, as I wait for the fall out. >>
"Wise" in making your daily life better?
Or "wise" in that you will probably cause a family to rethink their position
on spanking?
And maybe cause MANY families to do so.
If it's not an unschooling list, don't send this very link, but if you go in
here you can find a link or two you COULD send them.
Every time a spanking debate has started on an unschooling list it gets ugly,
and usually the target mom (the one who defended spanking) doesn't change her
mind, but others on the side do. At least one each time has said so. And
probably there are more who didn't say so.
So maybe it will be uncomfortable for you to speak up, and maybe they'll even
throw you off the list. How uncomfortable? As uncomfortable as a spanking?
As uncomfortable as the guilt of not having said something that might have
made a difference?
Sandra
comes up, do you try to voice your concerns or opinions on it? -=-
I always do.
<< I'm wondering now if it was wise, as I wait for the fall out. >>
"Wise" in making your daily life better?
Or "wise" in that you will probably cause a family to rethink their position
on spanking?
And maybe cause MANY families to do so.
If it's not an unschooling list, don't send this very link, but if you go in
here you can find a link or two you COULD send them.
Every time a spanking debate has started on an unschooling list it gets ugly,
and usually the target mom (the one who defended spanking) doesn't change her
mind, but others on the side do. At least one each time has said so. And
probably there are more who didn't say so.
So maybe it will be uncomfortable for you to speak up, and maybe they'll even
throw you off the list. How uncomfortable? As uncomfortable as a spanking?
As uncomfortable as the guilt of not having said something that might have
made a difference?
Sandra
tjreynoso
Do you mean on another non-unschooling list or group?
Wouldn't make much sense to have a list or group where you couldn't
or shouldn't voice your opinion.
--- In [email protected], "Brian and Kathy
Stamp" <bstamp@c...> wrote:
it? I just did because it seemed to be the norm on a board when
discussing a behavioural issue and I wanted the posters to know that
there are others who feel differently even if it's not the "norm"
for the group.
Wouldn't make much sense to have a list or group where you couldn't
or shouldn't voice your opinion.
--- In [email protected], "Brian and Kathy
Stamp" <bstamp@c...> wrote:
> If you are on another email list or group and something likespanking comes up, do you try to voice your concerns or opinions on
it? I just did because it seemed to be the norm on a board when
discussing a behavioural issue and I wanted the posters to know that
there are others who feel differently even if it's not the "norm"
for the group.
>
> I'm wondering now if it was wise, as I wait for the fall out.
>
> Curious how you all handle things like that.
>
> Kathy
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jon and Rue Kream
I always speak up when someone raises spanking as an option. Even if
that person is not open to hearing about other ways to live with
children, maybe someone else who hears me is. In any case, I can't just
say nothing when it comes to children being hit. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that person is not open to hearing about other ways to live with
children, maybe someone else who hears me is. In any case, I can't just
say nothing when it comes to children being hit. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa
--- In [email protected], "Brian and Kathy
Stamp" <bstamp@c...> wrote:
<<If you are on another email list or group and something like
spanking comes up, do you try to voice your concerns or opinions on
it? I just did because it seemed to be the norm on a board when
discussing a behavioural issue and I wanted the posters to know that
there are others who feel differently even if it's not the "norm"
for the group.>>
Well.....I cetainly have never had a problem voicing my opinion,
even if it isn't the "norm" or if I know others will not agree with
me. My family and friends know not to ask my opinion uless they
really want an honest answer. :)
I've voiced an opposing opinion on some other groups that I belong
to and knew that the "fall out" would be interesting to hear, if
nothing else. Usually, when I voice this opposing opinion, I know
that others are not going to agree with me (and that's ok, not
everyone will always agree with me) but, I want them to know that
there are other ways of looking at different situtations. Since I
usually know this in advance, I don't take what they say
personally. Also, since most people are "grown ups" there is
usually a grown up discussion and not "yelling" and name calling,
which makes it easier to see other points of view.
Melissa
Stamp" <bstamp@c...> wrote:
<<If you are on another email list or group and something like
spanking comes up, do you try to voice your concerns or opinions on
it? I just did because it seemed to be the norm on a board when
discussing a behavioural issue and I wanted the posters to know that
there are others who feel differently even if it's not the "norm"
for the group.>>
Well.....I cetainly have never had a problem voicing my opinion,
even if it isn't the "norm" or if I know others will not agree with
me. My family and friends know not to ask my opinion uless they
really want an honest answer. :)
I've voiced an opposing opinion on some other groups that I belong
to and knew that the "fall out" would be interesting to hear, if
nothing else. Usually, when I voice this opposing opinion, I know
that others are not going to agree with me (and that's ok, not
everyone will always agree with me) but, I want them to know that
there are other ways of looking at different situtations. Since I
usually know this in advance, I don't take what they say
personally. Also, since most people are "grown ups" there is
usually a grown up discussion and not "yelling" and name calling,
which makes it easier to see other points of view.
Melissa
pam sorooshian
I don't argue it there, but I do make an offer -- "If there are people
here who, like me, don't want to spank their children, and prefer to
find ways to live together that don't involve punishment, please feel
free to join my support list by sending a blank email to
"[email protected]." Please note that this list
is for support of those who do not want to spank their children, not
for debating spanking at all."
-pam
here who, like me, don't want to spank their children, and prefer to
find ways to live together that don't involve punishment, please feel
free to join my support list by sending a blank email to
"[email protected]." Please note that this list
is for support of those who do not want to spank their children, not
for debating spanking at all."
-pam
On Mar 18, 2004, at 8:34 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
> "Wise" in making your daily life better?
> Or "wise" in that you will probably cause a family to rethink their
> position
> on spanking?
> And maybe cause MANY families to do so.
>
> If it's not an unschooling list, don't send this very link, but if you
> go in
> here you can find a link or two you COULD send them.
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
J. Stauffer
<<< Curious how you all handle things like that.>>>>
Back when I was a therapist working at a children's locked psychiatric
facility, a young family admitted their 5yo child who was mentally retarded.
She threw fits, bit people, didn't sleep much, etc.....but I kept wondering
why in the world this family admitted her. She was 5 for gosh sakes. I had
children of my own and couldn't imagine not being able to handle a 5yo.
Then David came to live with us when we were foster parents. David was 3
and actively psychotic. He threw fits almost non-stop, kept forgetting
about the dog and screaming his head off every time he saw it, would attack
other children for no apparent reason, didn't sleep at all that I could
tell. After 6 days, I asked for him to be moved because I couldn't handle
that kid. A mother of 2 who had been trained for 6 years in child
psychology and had 10 years experience as a therapist couldn't handle a 3 yo
boy.
That was when I quit judging the parenting techniques of other parents...at
least the ones I didn't know. I don't know the story.
Do I think spanking is a good and effective parenting response? No. Do I
think time-out is? No. Do I think every child is capable of the empathy
required to make discussions of how our behavior effects others effective?
No. Do I think there are parents that spank their kids at the drop of a
hat? Yes. Do I think there are parents that have tried talking, tried
removing from the situation, tried distracting and then finally spanked
because they didn't know what else to do? Yes.
Have I spanked my kids? Yes. Is it something I would recommend to others?
No.
Julie S.
Back when I was a therapist working at a children's locked psychiatric
facility, a young family admitted their 5yo child who was mentally retarded.
She threw fits, bit people, didn't sleep much, etc.....but I kept wondering
why in the world this family admitted her. She was 5 for gosh sakes. I had
children of my own and couldn't imagine not being able to handle a 5yo.
Then David came to live with us when we were foster parents. David was 3
and actively psychotic. He threw fits almost non-stop, kept forgetting
about the dog and screaming his head off every time he saw it, would attack
other children for no apparent reason, didn't sleep at all that I could
tell. After 6 days, I asked for him to be moved because I couldn't handle
that kid. A mother of 2 who had been trained for 6 years in child
psychology and had 10 years experience as a therapist couldn't handle a 3 yo
boy.
That was when I quit judging the parenting techniques of other parents...at
least the ones I didn't know. I don't know the story.
Do I think spanking is a good and effective parenting response? No. Do I
think time-out is? No. Do I think every child is capable of the empathy
required to make discussions of how our behavior effects others effective?
No. Do I think there are parents that spank their kids at the drop of a
hat? Yes. Do I think there are parents that have tried talking, tried
removing from the situation, tried distracting and then finally spanked
because they didn't know what else to do? Yes.
Have I spanked my kids? Yes. Is it something I would recommend to others?
No.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 9:53 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> If you are on another email list or group and something like spanking
comes up, do you try to voice your concerns or opinions on it? I just did
because it seemed to be the norm on a board when discussing a behavioural
issue and I wanted the posters to know that there are others who feel
differently even if it's not the "norm" for the group.
>
> I'm wondering now if it was wise, as I wait for the fall out.
>
> Curious how you all handle things like that.
>
> Kathy
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Brian and Kathy Stamp
"That was when I quit judging the parenting techniques of other parents...at least the ones I didn't know. I don't know the story."
I was just trying to point out there is another way. If the only way to get a child to behave is by spanking, there is a much deeper problem as was the case in your situtation. Gosh I would hope that a child with a psychiatric illness wouldn't be hit as a solution.
Kathy
I was just trying to point out there is another way. If the only way to get a child to behave is by spanking, there is a much deeper problem as was the case in your situtation. Gosh I would hope that a child with a psychiatric illness wouldn't be hit as a solution.
Kathy
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Stauffer
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
<<< Curious how you all handle things like that.>>>>
Back when I was a therapist working at a children's locked psychiatric
facility, a young family admitted their 5yo child who was mentally retarded.
She threw fits, bit people, didn't sleep much, etc.....but I kept wondering
why in the world this family admitted her. She was 5 for gosh sakes. I had
children of my own and couldn't imagine not being able to handle a 5yo.
Then David came to live with us when we were foster parents. David was 3
and actively psychotic. He threw fits almost non-stop, kept forgetting
about the dog and screaming his head off every time he saw it, would attack
other children for no apparent reason, didn't sleep at all that I could
tell. After 6 days, I asked for him to be moved because I couldn't handle
that kid. A mother of 2 who had been trained for 6 years in child
psychology and had 10 years experience as a therapist couldn't handle a 3 yo
boy.
That was when I quit judging the parenting techniques of other parents...at
least the ones I didn't know. I don't know the story.
Do I think spanking is a good and effective parenting response? No. Do I
think time-out is? No. Do I think every child is capable of the empathy
required to make discussions of how our behavior effects others effective?
No. Do I think there are parents that spank their kids at the drop of a
hat? Yes. Do I think there are parents that have tried talking, tried
removing from the situation, tried distracting and then finally spanked
because they didn't know what else to do? Yes.
Have I spanked my kids? Yes. Is it something I would recommend to others?
No.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 9:53 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> If you are on another email list or group and something like spanking
comes up, do you try to voice your concerns or opinions on it? I just did
because it seemed to be the norm on a board when discussing a behavioural
issue and I wanted the posters to know that there are others who feel
differently even if it's not the "norm" for the group.
>
> I'm wondering now if it was wise, as I wait for the fall out.
>
> Curious how you all handle things like that.
>
> Kathy
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
Thank you for saying that.
As much as I strive to do better, there are times when I reach a point and don't know what else to do.
I don't believe in spanking, but my kids are familiar enough with it to know what it means. So on a rare occasion it happens.
I'm not proud of it, and I always try to go back and see what I could do differently to avoid it in the future.
But it happens.
I also have a son who was quite the challenge when he was little. Although I know so much more now than I did then, I *do* understand how people get themselves into situations that involve less than ideal parenting. So I try not to judge.
Kristen
As much as I strive to do better, there are times when I reach a point and don't know what else to do.
I don't believe in spanking, but my kids are familiar enough with it to know what it means. So on a rare occasion it happens.
I'm not proud of it, and I always try to go back and see what I could do differently to avoid it in the future.
But it happens.
I also have a son who was quite the challenge when he was little. Although I know so much more now than I did then, I *do* understand how people get themselves into situations that involve less than ideal parenting. So I try not to judge.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Stauffer
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
<<< Curious how you all handle things like that.>>>>
Back when I was a therapist working at a children's locked psychiatric
facility, a young family admitted their 5yo child who was mentally retarded.
She threw fits, bit people, didn't sleep much, etc.....but I kept wondering
why in the world this family admitted her. She was 5 for gosh sakes. I had
children of my own and couldn't imagine not being able to handle a 5yo.
Then David came to live with us when we were foster parents. David was 3
and actively psychotic. He threw fits almost non-stop, kept forgetting
about the dog and screaming his head off every time he saw it, would attack
other children for no apparent reason, didn't sleep at all that I could
tell. After 6 days, I asked for him to be moved because I couldn't handle
that kid. A mother of 2 who had been trained for 6 years in child
psychology and had 10 years experience as a therapist couldn't handle a 3 yo
boy.
That was when I quit judging the parenting techniques of other parents...at
least the ones I didn't know. I don't know the story.
Do I think spanking is a good and effective parenting response? No. Do I
think time-out is? No. Do I think every child is capable of the empathy
required to make discussions of how our behavior effects others effective?
No. Do I think there are parents that spank their kids at the drop of a
hat? Yes. Do I think there are parents that have tried talking, tried
removing from the situation, tried distracting and then finally spanked
because they didn't know what else to do? Yes.
Have I spanked my kids? Yes. Is it something I would recommend to others?
No.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 9:53 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> If you are on another email list or group and something like spanking
comes up, do you try to voice your concerns or opinions on it? I just did
because it seemed to be the norm on a board when discussing a behavioural
issue and I wanted the posters to know that there are others who feel
differently even if it's not the "norm" for the group.
>
> I'm wondering now if it was wise, as I wait for the fall out.
>
> Curious how you all handle things like that.
>
> Kathy
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brian and Kathy Stamp
"So I try not to judge." I think there is a difference between judging and between trying to point out other solutions. Do you try not to judge anyone on anything? Or is it just because you have found yourself doing it that you try not to judge?
Do you judge school teachers that lose it? Do you judge parents out in public that scream and yell or lose it? Do you judge working moms, stay at home moms, attachement moms, non-attachment moms? I think we all have beliefs and there is a big difference between judging and sharing our beliefs.
If nobody ever shared that there is an alternative to spanking, many moms might never know it.
Kathy
Do you judge school teachers that lose it? Do you judge parents out in public that scream and yell or lose it? Do you judge working moms, stay at home moms, attachement moms, non-attachment moms? I think we all have beliefs and there is a big difference between judging and sharing our beliefs.
If nobody ever shared that there is an alternative to spanking, many moms might never know it.
Kathy
----- Original Message -----
From: Have a Nice Day!
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
Thank you for saying that.
As much as I strive to do better, there are times when I reach a point and don't know what else to do.
I don't believe in spanking, but my kids are familiar enough with it to know what it means. So on a rare occasion it happens.
I'm not proud of it, and I always try to go back and see what I could do differently to avoid it in the future.
But it happens.
I also have a son who was quite the challenge when he was little. Although I know so much more now than I did then, I *do* understand how people get themselves into situations that involve less than ideal parenting. So I try not to judge.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Stauffer
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
<<< Curious how you all handle things like that.>>>>
Back when I was a therapist working at a children's locked psychiatric
facility, a young family admitted their 5yo child who was mentally retarded.
She threw fits, bit people, didn't sleep much, etc.....but I kept wondering
why in the world this family admitted her. She was 5 for gosh sakes. I had
children of my own and couldn't imagine not being able to handle a 5yo.
Then David came to live with us when we were foster parents. David was 3
and actively psychotic. He threw fits almost non-stop, kept forgetting
about the dog and screaming his head off every time he saw it, would attack
other children for no apparent reason, didn't sleep at all that I could
tell. After 6 days, I asked for him to be moved because I couldn't handle
that kid. A mother of 2 who had been trained for 6 years in child
psychology and had 10 years experience as a therapist couldn't handle a 3 yo
boy.
That was when I quit judging the parenting techniques of other parents...at
least the ones I didn't know. I don't know the story.
Do I think spanking is a good and effective parenting response? No. Do I
think time-out is? No. Do I think every child is capable of the empathy
required to make discussions of how our behavior effects others effective?
No. Do I think there are parents that spank their kids at the drop of a
hat? Yes. Do I think there are parents that have tried talking, tried
removing from the situation, tried distracting and then finally spanked
because they didn't know what else to do? Yes.
Have I spanked my kids? Yes. Is it something I would recommend to others?
No.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 9:53 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> If you are on another email list or group and something like spanking
comes up, do you try to voice your concerns or opinions on it? I just did
because it seemed to be the norm on a board when discussing a behavioural
issue and I wanted the posters to know that there are others who feel
differently even if it's not the "norm" for the group.
>
> I'm wondering now if it was wise, as I wait for the fall out.
>
> Curious how you all handle things like that.
>
> Kathy
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<<Gosh I would hope that a child with a psychiatric illness wouldn't be hit
as a solution.>>>
No, he was tied up in a straight jacket instead <sigh>. He eventually grew
old enough to drug and then eventually gained some bit of empathy....he
still could not function in a family setting.
Julie S.
as a solution.>>>
No, he was tied up in a straight jacket instead <sigh>. He eventually grew
old enough to drug and then eventually gained some bit of empathy....he
still could not function in a family setting.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> "That was when I quit judging the parenting techniques of other
parents...at least the ones I didn't know. I don't know the story."
>
> I was just trying to point out there is another way. If the only way to
get a child to behave is by spanking, there is a much deeper problem as was
the case in your situtation. Gosh I would hope that a child with a
psychiatric illness wouldn't be hit as a solution.
>
> Kathy
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: J. Stauffer
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
>
>
> <<< Curious how you all handle things like that.>>>>
>
> Back when I was a therapist working at a children's locked psychiatric
> facility, a young family admitted their 5yo child who was mentally
retarded.
> She threw fits, bit people, didn't sleep much, etc.....but I kept
wondering
> why in the world this family admitted her. She was 5 for gosh sakes. I
had
> children of my own and couldn't imagine not being able to handle a 5yo.
>
> Then David came to live with us when we were foster parents. David was
3
> and actively psychotic. He threw fits almost non-stop, kept forgetting
> about the dog and screaming his head off every time he saw it, would
attack
> other children for no apparent reason, didn't sleep at all that I could
> tell. After 6 days, I asked for him to be moved because I couldn't
handle
> that kid. A mother of 2 who had been trained for 6 years in child
> psychology and had 10 years experience as a therapist couldn't handle a
3 yo
> boy.
>
> That was when I quit judging the parenting techniques of other
parents...at
> least the ones I didn't know. I don't know the story.
>
> Do I think spanking is a good and effective parenting response? No. Do
I
> think time-out is? No. Do I think every child is capable of the
empathy
> required to make discussions of how our behavior effects others
effective?
> No. Do I think there are parents that spank their kids at the drop of a
> hat? Yes. Do I think there are parents that have tried talking, tried
> removing from the situation, tried distracting and then finally spanked
> because they didn't know what else to do? Yes.
>
> Have I spanked my kids? Yes. Is it something I would recommend to
others?
> No.
>
> Julie S.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 9:53 AM
> Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
>
>
> > If you are on another email list or group and something like spanking
> comes up, do you try to voice your concerns or opinions on it? I just
did
> because it seemed to be the norm on a board when discussing a
behavioural
> issue and I wanted the posters to know that there are others who feel
> differently even if it's not the "norm" for the group.
> >
> > I'm wondering now if it was wise, as I wait for the fall out.
> >
> > Curious how you all handle things like that.
> >
> > Kathy
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
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>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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J. Stauffer
<<I was just trying to point out there is another way>>
I think that is always appropriate. For every problem, there are answers,
as in plural.
Julie S.
I think that is always appropriate. For every problem, there are answers,
as in plural.
Julie S.
Brian and Kathy Stamp
"No, he was tied up in a straight jacket instead <sigh>. He eventually grew old enough to drug and then eventually gained some bit of empathy....he still could not function in a family setting."
That is terribly sad. I'm just not sure I understand the comparison of an obvious mentally ill child to that of a normal healthy child being spanked or hit for making mistakes or sometimes just for doing something the parent didn't happen to like at that moment.
Should we just close our eyes to possible abuse, so as not to sit in judgement of others?
Kathy
That is terribly sad. I'm just not sure I understand the comparison of an obvious mentally ill child to that of a normal healthy child being spanked or hit for making mistakes or sometimes just for doing something the parent didn't happen to like at that moment.
Should we just close our eyes to possible abuse, so as not to sit in judgement of others?
Kathy
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Stauffer
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
<<<Gosh I would hope that a child with a psychiatric illness wouldn't be hit
as a solution.>>>
No, he was tied up in a straight jacket instead <sigh>. He eventually grew
old enough to drug and then eventually gained some bit of empathy....he
still could not function in a family setting.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> "That was when I quit judging the parenting techniques of other
parents...at least the ones I didn't know. I don't know the story."
>
> I was just trying to point out there is another way. If the only way to
get a child to behave is by spanking, there is a much deeper problem as was
the case in your situtation. Gosh I would hope that a child with a
psychiatric illness wouldn't be hit as a solution.
>
> Kathy
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: J. Stauffer
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
>
>
> <<< Curious how you all handle things like that.>>>>
>
> Back when I was a therapist working at a children's locked psychiatric
> facility, a young family admitted their 5yo child who was mentally
retarded.
> She threw fits, bit people, didn't sleep much, etc.....but I kept
wondering
> why in the world this family admitted her. She was 5 for gosh sakes. I
had
> children of my own and couldn't imagine not being able to handle a 5yo.
>
> Then David came to live with us when we were foster parents. David was
3
> and actively psychotic. He threw fits almost non-stop, kept forgetting
> about the dog and screaming his head off every time he saw it, would
attack
> other children for no apparent reason, didn't sleep at all that I could
> tell. After 6 days, I asked for him to be moved because I couldn't
handle
> that kid. A mother of 2 who had been trained for 6 years in child
> psychology and had 10 years experience as a therapist couldn't handle a
3 yo
> boy.
>
> That was when I quit judging the parenting techniques of other
parents...at
> least the ones I didn't know. I don't know the story.
>
> Do I think spanking is a good and effective parenting response? No. Do
I
> think time-out is? No. Do I think every child is capable of the
empathy
> required to make discussions of how our behavior effects others
effective?
> No. Do I think there are parents that spank their kids at the drop of a
> hat? Yes. Do I think there are parents that have tried talking, tried
> removing from the situation, tried distracting and then finally spanked
> because they didn't know what else to do? Yes.
>
> Have I spanked my kids? Yes. Is it something I would recommend to
others?
> No.
>
> Julie S.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 9:53 AM
> Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
>
>
> > If you are on another email list or group and something like spanking
> comes up, do you try to voice your concerns or opinions on it? I just
did
> because it seemed to be the norm on a board when discussing a
behavioural
> issue and I wanted the posters to know that there are others who feel
> differently even if it's not the "norm" for the group.
> >
> > I'm wondering now if it was wise, as I wait for the fall out.
> >
> > Curious how you all handle things like that.
> >
> > Kathy
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<<I think there is a difference between judging and between trying to point
out other solutions.>>>
I absolutely agree. I do try not to judge. Just as I try to give the child
that is screaming and having a meltdown in the store the benefit of the
doubt (no nap, hungry, didn't want to be shopping, etc.), I try to give the
mom who is having a meltdown the benefit of the doubt too (overtired, didn't
have time for lunch, etc.)
That doesn't mean that I don't try to help if it seems appropriate
(entertain the child in the check-out line, offer to hold the baby while the
mom helps the toddler, etc.)
It means that I don't automatically assume that the person having the
meltdown is lacking in some way. Every single person has had a meltdown at
one time or another, not been as kind as they wish they had,whatever.
Spanking and yelling are not kind things to do but I don't understand why
they have been demonized so much more so than the emotional damage that is
inflicted by time-out, ignoring, etc.. None of that is good and effective
parenting.
Julie S.
out other solutions.>>>
I absolutely agree. I do try not to judge. Just as I try to give the child
that is screaming and having a meltdown in the store the benefit of the
doubt (no nap, hungry, didn't want to be shopping, etc.), I try to give the
mom who is having a meltdown the benefit of the doubt too (overtired, didn't
have time for lunch, etc.)
That doesn't mean that I don't try to help if it seems appropriate
(entertain the child in the check-out line, offer to hold the baby while the
mom helps the toddler, etc.)
It means that I don't automatically assume that the person having the
meltdown is lacking in some way. Every single person has had a meltdown at
one time or another, not been as kind as they wish they had,whatever.
Spanking and yelling are not kind things to do but I don't understand why
they have been demonized so much more so than the emotional damage that is
inflicted by time-out, ignoring, etc.. None of that is good and effective
parenting.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> "So I try not to judge." I think there is a difference between judging and
between trying to point out other solutions. Do you try not to judge anyone
on anything? Or is it just because you have found yourself doing it that you
try not to judge?
>
> Do you judge school teachers that lose it? Do you judge parents out in
public that scream and yell or lose it? Do you judge working moms, stay at
home moms, attachement moms, non-attachment moms? I think we all have
beliefs and there is a big difference between judging and sharing our
beliefs.
>
> If nobody ever shared that there is an alternative to spanking, many moms
might never know it.
>
> Kathy
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Have a Nice Day!
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
>
>
> Thank you for saying that.
>
> As much as I strive to do better, there are times when I reach a point
and don't know what else to do.
>
> I don't believe in spanking, but my kids are familiar enough with it to
know what it means. So on a rare occasion it happens.
>
> I'm not proud of it, and I always try to go back and see what I could do
differently to avoid it in the future.
>
> But it happens.
>
> I also have a son who was quite the challenge when he was little.
Although I know so much more now than I did then, I *do* understand how
people get themselves into situations that involve less than ideal
parenting. So I try not to judge.
>
> Kristen
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: J. Stauffer
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
>
>
> <<< Curious how you all handle things like that.>>>>
>
> Back when I was a therapist working at a children's locked psychiatric
> facility, a young family admitted their 5yo child who was mentally
retarded.
> She threw fits, bit people, didn't sleep much, etc.....but I kept
wondering
> why in the world this family admitted her. She was 5 for gosh sakes.
I had
> children of my own and couldn't imagine not being able to handle a
5yo.
>
> Then David came to live with us when we were foster parents. David
was 3
> and actively psychotic. He threw fits almost non-stop, kept
forgetting
> about the dog and screaming his head off every time he saw it, would
attack
> other children for no apparent reason, didn't sleep at all that I
could
> tell. After 6 days, I asked for him to be moved because I couldn't
handle
> that kid. A mother of 2 who had been trained for 6 years in child
> psychology and had 10 years experience as a therapist couldn't handle
a 3 yo
> boy.
>
> That was when I quit judging the parenting techniques of other
parents...at
> least the ones I didn't know. I don't know the story.
>
> Do I think spanking is a good and effective parenting response? No.
Do I
> think time-out is? No. Do I think every child is capable of the
empathy
> required to make discussions of how our behavior effects others
effective?
> No. Do I think there are parents that spank their kids at the drop of
a
> hat? Yes. Do I think there are parents that have tried talking,
tried
> removing from the situation, tried distracting and then finally
spanked
> because they didn't know what else to do? Yes.
>
> Have I spanked my kids? Yes. Is it something I would recommend to
others?
> No.
>
> Julie S.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 9:53 AM
> Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
>
>
> > If you are on another email list or group and something like
spanking
> comes up, do you try to voice your concerns or opinions on it? I just
did
> because it seemed to be the norm on a board when discussing a
behavioural
> issue and I wanted the posters to know that there are others who feel
> differently even if it's not the "norm" for the group.
> >
> > I'm wondering now if it was wise, as I wait for the fall out.
> >
> > Curious how you all handle things like that.
> >
> > Kathy
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
group.
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> [email protected]
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
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>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
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>
>
J. Stauffer
The point is that the medical professionals didn't know what to do with
David so he was "treated" in a manner that would seem horribly abusive to
us.
This is often what is happening in a situation where a child is treated
roughly by a parent. Again, I am not advocating spanking, yelling,
time-out, etc. I just don't think it is always abusive.
As a therapist, it has been my experience that most abusers are quite nice
to their children in public....the shit hits the fan when they get home.
Julie S.
David so he was "treated" in a manner that would seem horribly abusive to
us.
This is often what is happening in a situation where a child is treated
roughly by a parent. Again, I am not advocating spanking, yelling,
time-out, etc. I just don't think it is always abusive.
As a therapist, it has been my experience that most abusers are quite nice
to their children in public....the shit hits the fan when they get home.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> "No, he was tied up in a straight jacket instead <sigh>. He eventually
grew old enough to drug and then eventually gained some bit of empathy....he
still could not function in a family setting."
>
> That is terribly sad. I'm just not sure I understand the comparison of an
obvious mentally ill child to that of a normal healthy child being spanked
or hit for making mistakes or sometimes just for doing something the parent
didn't happen to like at that moment.
>
> Should we just close our eyes to possible abuse, so as not to sit in
judgement of others?
>
> Kathy
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: J. Stauffer
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
>
>
> <<<Gosh I would hope that a child with a psychiatric illness wouldn't be
hit
> as a solution.>>>
>
> No, he was tied up in a straight jacket instead <sigh>. He eventually
grew
> old enough to drug and then eventually gained some bit of empathy....he
> still could not function in a family setting.
>
> Julie S.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
>
>
> > "That was when I quit judging the parenting techniques of other
> parents...at least the ones I didn't know. I don't know the story."
> >
> > I was just trying to point out there is another way. If the only way
to
> get a child to behave is by spanking, there is a much deeper problem as
was
> the case in your situtation. Gosh I would hope that a child with a
> psychiatric illness wouldn't be hit as a solution.
> >
> > Kathy
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: J. Stauffer
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> >
> >
> > <<< Curious how you all handle things like that.>>>>
> >
> > Back when I was a therapist working at a children's locked
psychiatric
> > facility, a young family admitted their 5yo child who was mentally
> retarded.
> > She threw fits, bit people, didn't sleep much, etc.....but I kept
> wondering
> > why in the world this family admitted her. She was 5 for gosh
sakes. I
> had
> > children of my own and couldn't imagine not being able to handle a
5yo.
> >
> > Then David came to live with us when we were foster parents. David
was
> 3
> > and actively psychotic. He threw fits almost non-stop, kept
forgetting
> > about the dog and screaming his head off every time he saw it, would
> attack
> > other children for no apparent reason, didn't sleep at all that I
could
> > tell. After 6 days, I asked for him to be moved because I couldn't
> handle
> > that kid. A mother of 2 who had been trained for 6 years in child
> > psychology and had 10 years experience as a therapist couldn't
handle a
> 3 yo
> > boy.
> >
> > That was when I quit judging the parenting techniques of other
> parents...at
> > least the ones I didn't know. I don't know the story.
> >
> > Do I think spanking is a good and effective parenting response? No.
Do
> I
> > think time-out is? No. Do I think every child is capable of the
> empathy
> > required to make discussions of how our behavior effects others
> effective?
> > No. Do I think there are parents that spank their kids at the drop
of a
> > hat? Yes. Do I think there are parents that have tried talking,
tried
> > removing from the situation, tried distracting and then finally
spanked
> > because they didn't know what else to do? Yes.
> >
> > Have I spanked my kids? Yes. Is it something I would recommend to
> others?
> > No.
> >
> > Julie S.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 9:53 AM
> > Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> >
> >
> > > If you are on another email list or group and something like
spanking
> > comes up, do you try to voice your concerns or opinions on it? I
just
> did
> > because it seemed to be the norm on a board when discussing a
> behavioural
> > issue and I wanted the posters to know that there are others who
feel
> > differently even if it's not the "norm" for the group.
> > >
> > > I'm wondering now if it was wise, as I wait for the fall out.
> > >
> > > Curious how you all handle things like that.
> > >
> > > Kathy
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
group.
> > >
> > > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> > http://www.unschooling.com
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
group.
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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>
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Brian and Kathy Stamp
"As a therapist, it has been my experience that most abusers are quite nice to their children in public....the shit hits the fan when they get home."
Oh I know this to be true. I understand melt down (by the mother) spankings more then I do the well thought out, "now this for your own good type" that tend to be much more frequent and considered acceptable.
I think if a mom loses it and apoligizes for her actions, it's not great but it's more acceptable. It's the train of thought that it(spanking) is an acceptable form of punishment that I personally don't agree with. Which is what the women on this other list were referring to. Using spanking to get kids in line.
Kathy
Oh I know this to be true. I understand melt down (by the mother) spankings more then I do the well thought out, "now this for your own good type" that tend to be much more frequent and considered acceptable.
I think if a mom loses it and apoligizes for her actions, it's not great but it's more acceptable. It's the train of thought that it(spanking) is an acceptable form of punishment that I personally don't agree with. Which is what the women on this other list were referring to. Using spanking to get kids in line.
Kathy
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Stauffer
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
The point is that the medical professionals didn't know what to do with
David so he was "treated" in a manner that would seem horribly abusive to
us.
This is often what is happening in a situation where a child is treated
roughly by a parent. Again, I am not advocating spanking, yelling,
time-out, etc. I just don't think it is always abusive.
As a therapist, it has been my experience that most abusers are quite nice
to their children in public....the shit hits the fan when they get home.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> "No, he was tied up in a straight jacket instead <sigh>. He eventually
grew old enough to drug and then eventually gained some bit of empathy....he
still could not function in a family setting."
>
> That is terribly sad. I'm just not sure I understand the comparison of an
obvious mentally ill child to that of a normal healthy child being spanked
or hit for making mistakes or sometimes just for doing something the parent
didn't happen to like at that moment.
>
> Should we just close our eyes to possible abuse, so as not to sit in
judgement of others?
>
> Kathy
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: J. Stauffer
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
>
>
> <<<Gosh I would hope that a child with a psychiatric illness wouldn't be
hit
> as a solution.>>>
>
> No, he was tied up in a straight jacket instead <sigh>. He eventually
grew
> old enough to drug and then eventually gained some bit of empathy....he
> still could not function in a family setting.
>
> Julie S.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
>
>
> > "That was when I quit judging the parenting techniques of other
> parents...at least the ones I didn't know. I don't know the story."
> >
> > I was just trying to point out there is another way. If the only way
to
> get a child to behave is by spanking, there is a much deeper problem as
was
> the case in your situtation. Gosh I would hope that a child with a
> psychiatric illness wouldn't be hit as a solution.
> >
> > Kathy
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: J. Stauffer
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> >
> >
> > <<< Curious how you all handle things like that.>>>>
> >
> > Back when I was a therapist working at a children's locked
psychiatric
> > facility, a young family admitted their 5yo child who was mentally
> retarded.
> > She threw fits, bit people, didn't sleep much, etc.....but I kept
> wondering
> > why in the world this family admitted her. She was 5 for gosh
sakes. I
> had
> > children of my own and couldn't imagine not being able to handle a
5yo.
> >
> > Then David came to live with us when we were foster parents. David
was
> 3
> > and actively psychotic. He threw fits almost non-stop, kept
forgetting
> > about the dog and screaming his head off every time he saw it, would
> attack
> > other children for no apparent reason, didn't sleep at all that I
could
> > tell. After 6 days, I asked for him to be moved because I couldn't
> handle
> > that kid. A mother of 2 who had been trained for 6 years in child
> > psychology and had 10 years experience as a therapist couldn't
handle a
> 3 yo
> > boy.
> >
> > That was when I quit judging the parenting techniques of other
> parents...at
> > least the ones I didn't know. I don't know the story.
> >
> > Do I think spanking is a good and effective parenting response? No.
Do
> I
> > think time-out is? No. Do I think every child is capable of the
> empathy
> > required to make discussions of how our behavior effects others
> effective?
> > No. Do I think there are parents that spank their kids at the drop
of a
> > hat? Yes. Do I think there are parents that have tried talking,
tried
> > removing from the situation, tried distracting and then finally
spanked
> > because they didn't know what else to do? Yes.
> >
> > Have I spanked my kids? Yes. Is it something I would recommend to
> others?
> > No.
> >
> > Julie S.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 9:53 AM
> > Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> >
> >
> > > If you are on another email list or group and something like
spanking
> > comes up, do you try to voice your concerns or opinions on it? I
just
> did
> > because it seemed to be the norm on a board when discussing a
> behavioural
> > issue and I wanted the posters to know that there are others who
feel
> > differently even if it's not the "norm" for the group.
> > >
> > > I'm wondering now if it was wise, as I wait for the fall out.
> > >
> > > Curious how you all handle things like that.
> > >
> > > Kathy
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
group.
> > >
> > > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> > http://www.unschooling.com
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
group.
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
> >
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
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>
>
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>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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>
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>
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Not judging others shouldn't preclude disagreeing when others are
recommending spanking (or time outs, or standing in the corner with both arms over the
head and one leg raised, or shaming, or whatever nasty "discipline tool" is
being recommended) as effective parenting techniques. Not to speak up is shameful,
in my opinion.
When parents say "I had to spank" not to speak up is to be seen to agree.
Young parents who are reading these discussions especially need other parents to
speak up and say "no, that is not ever necessary, you can learn to parent
differently".
I don't understand your example. Are you saying that either of those children
would have been helped by spanking, or that if parents resort to violence
with difficult children it's understandable and okay, that they shouldn't feel
bad about it or work to change it?
I don't believe any of that is true, and I think parents SHOULD feel bad when
they hurt their children. I know I do.
Deborah in IL
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
recommending spanking (or time outs, or standing in the corner with both arms over the
head and one leg raised, or shaming, or whatever nasty "discipline tool" is
being recommended) as effective parenting techniques. Not to speak up is shameful,
in my opinion.
When parents say "I had to spank" not to speak up is to be seen to agree.
Young parents who are reading these discussions especially need other parents to
speak up and say "no, that is not ever necessary, you can learn to parent
differently".
I don't understand your example. Are you saying that either of those children
would have been helped by spanking, or that if parents resort to violence
with difficult children it's understandable and okay, that they shouldn't feel
bad about it or work to change it?
I don't believe any of that is true, and I think parents SHOULD feel bad when
they hurt their children. I know I do.
Deborah in IL
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/18/04 1:37:18 PM, bstamp@... writes:
<< If nobody ever shared that there is an alternative to spanking, many moms
might never know it. >>
That's right. And if we give up trying to do better "because nobody's
perfect," we're not doing the best we can do.
-=- If the only way to get a child to behave is by spanking, there is a much
deeper problem as was the case in your situtation.-=-
And the problem is most likely with the parent. Spanking might get a child
to behave a different way at the moment, but over the years, it creates a big
adult who wants to hit other smaller people.
If someone's out of control at 50 lbs, he might grow out of it. If someone's
out of control at 200 lbs, the world has a problem.
-="So I try not to judge." I think there is a difference between judging and
between trying to point out other solutions.-=-
"I don't judge" is too often like "I don't think" or "I'm just not going to
be honest."
Without judgment we have no better/worse, no discernment, no preferences, not
likes or dislikes.
Sandra
<< If nobody ever shared that there is an alternative to spanking, many moms
might never know it. >>
That's right. And if we give up trying to do better "because nobody's
perfect," we're not doing the best we can do.
-=- If the only way to get a child to behave is by spanking, there is a much
deeper problem as was the case in your situtation.-=-
And the problem is most likely with the parent. Spanking might get a child
to behave a different way at the moment, but over the years, it creates a big
adult who wants to hit other smaller people.
If someone's out of control at 50 lbs, he might grow out of it. If someone's
out of control at 200 lbs, the world has a problem.
-="So I try not to judge." I think there is a difference between judging and
between trying to point out other solutions.-=-
"I don't judge" is too often like "I don't think" or "I'm just not going to
be honest."
Without judgment we have no better/worse, no discernment, no preferences, not
likes or dislikes.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/18/04 2:19:09 PM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< It means that I don't automatically assume that the person having the
meltdown is lacking in some way. Every single person has had a meltdown at
one time or another, not been as kind as they wish they had,whatever. >>
It's not the occasional meltdown or even swat that bothers me. It's parents
who justify their actions (sometimes elaborately), own spanking tools, have
the child apologize to the mother after the mother was the one who unreasonably
lost it, etc.
Some moms melt down as much as they want and never feel guilty, never desire
to do better.
Sandra, who was called "you little brat" more times than could be counted
<< It means that I don't automatically assume that the person having the
meltdown is lacking in some way. Every single person has had a meltdown at
one time or another, not been as kind as they wish they had,whatever. >>
It's not the occasional meltdown or even swat that bothers me. It's parents
who justify their actions (sometimes elaborately), own spanking tools, have
the child apologize to the mother after the mother was the one who unreasonably
lost it, etc.
Some moms melt down as much as they want and never feel guilty, never desire
to do better.
Sandra, who was called "you little brat" more times than could be counted
Tracey Inman
Laura wrote:
..... but I have no clue where to buy a standardized test, ive looked.
I found a site that offers a test when I thought I was going to have to go
that route. Hope it helps. http://www.baysideschoolservices.com
Tracey I.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.622 / Virus Database: 400 - Release Date: 3/13/2004
..... but I have no clue where to buy a standardized test, ive looked.
I found a site that offers a test when I thought I was going to have to go
that route. Hope it helps. http://www.baysideschoolservices.com
Tracey I.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.622 / Virus Database: 400 - Release Date: 3/13/2004
Roberta Carl
I've been reading and watching for a couple months now
and don't say anything, but had an odd response to
your conversations on this subject.
I am a mom of 5 girls(4 mine, 1 step) and have
resorted to spanking in the past (youngest is 9 so
haven't spanked in years). I was raised with the
spanking philosophy, so at times I did resort to
spanking my kids, because that is what you're
"supposed to do".
However, while reading I had a odd remembrance from my
youth. I was 7 and my mom (divorced) was leaving me
and my 8 yo sister with a babysitter (21 yr old male)
so she could go pick up something from her work. I
threw a fit because we were being left (or so that is
what my mom thought). I was spanked probably 5-6
different times in a 15 min span -- would get taken to
my room, spanked, then would run outside to try to
stop her from leaving us, then the process would
repeat itself. She never stopped to find out why I was
acting that way and I wasn't prone to acting out.
Eventually, she just up and drove away with me
standing in the front yard screaming at her to stop.
Actually, what was happening was the babysitter was
sexually molesting my 8 yo sister, and had taken us
both with him to break into a couple houses while he
was "watching" us. I didn't want my sister to be hurt,
so I was attempting to get us taken with her instead
of being left. I guess she didn't talk much to us,
because she wouldn't listen.
So... I hadn't thought of that in years, but it
definitely is a good reason to listen to your kids,
especially if the behavior they are showing isn't
normal for them.
I really have never thought about the fact that you
don't have to spank. Your discussions have a way of
making people think twice about long held "traditions"
passed down by parents and not passing them down to
your kids.
Roberta
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
http://mail.yahoo.com
and don't say anything, but had an odd response to
your conversations on this subject.
I am a mom of 5 girls(4 mine, 1 step) and have
resorted to spanking in the past (youngest is 9 so
haven't spanked in years). I was raised with the
spanking philosophy, so at times I did resort to
spanking my kids, because that is what you're
"supposed to do".
However, while reading I had a odd remembrance from my
youth. I was 7 and my mom (divorced) was leaving me
and my 8 yo sister with a babysitter (21 yr old male)
so she could go pick up something from her work. I
threw a fit because we were being left (or so that is
what my mom thought). I was spanked probably 5-6
different times in a 15 min span -- would get taken to
my room, spanked, then would run outside to try to
stop her from leaving us, then the process would
repeat itself. She never stopped to find out why I was
acting that way and I wasn't prone to acting out.
Eventually, she just up and drove away with me
standing in the front yard screaming at her to stop.
Actually, what was happening was the babysitter was
sexually molesting my 8 yo sister, and had taken us
both with him to break into a couple houses while he
was "watching" us. I didn't want my sister to be hurt,
so I was attempting to get us taken with her instead
of being left. I guess she didn't talk much to us,
because she wouldn't listen.
So... I hadn't thought of that in years, but it
definitely is a good reason to listen to your kids,
especially if the behavior they are showing isn't
normal for them.
I really have never thought about the fact that you
don't have to spank. Your discussions have a way of
making people think twice about long held "traditions"
passed down by parents and not passing them down to
your kids.
Roberta
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
http://mail.yahoo.com
J. Stauffer
<<<<It's the train of thought that it(spanking) is an acceptable form of
punishment that I personally don't agree with. >>>>>
I agree with you. But to take it a step farther....what is an acceptable
form of punishment?
When we were foster parents, we often had small children living with us who
had no clue how to treat people or how to expect others to treat them. We
were told over and over to use time-out. I kept advocating for the kids,
saying over and over that taking a child a banishing them from perhaps the
only loving presence they have known is cruel and inhumane.....nobody
listened.
But I can't say I always have the answer. I do know that as my kids get
older, they are able to reason and things go better for us all. That isn't
terribly comforting to a mom in the throws of toddlerhood.
Julie S.
punishment that I personally don't agree with. >>>>>
I agree with you. But to take it a step farther....what is an acceptable
form of punishment?
When we were foster parents, we often had small children living with us who
had no clue how to treat people or how to expect others to treat them. We
were told over and over to use time-out. I kept advocating for the kids,
saying over and over that taking a child a banishing them from perhaps the
only loving presence they have known is cruel and inhumane.....nobody
listened.
But I can't say I always have the answer. I do know that as my kids get
older, they are able to reason and things go better for us all. That isn't
terribly comforting to a mom in the throws of toddlerhood.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> "As a therapist, it has been my experience that most abusers are quite
nice to their children in public....the shit hits the fan when they get
home."
>
> Oh I know this to be true. I understand melt down (by the mother)
spankings more then I do the well thought out, "now this for your own good
type" that tend to be much more frequent and considered acceptable.
>
> I think if a mom loses it and apoligizes for her actions, it's not great
but it's more acceptable. It's the train of thought that it(spanking) is an
acceptable form of punishment that I personally don't agree with. Which is
what the women on this other list were referring to. Using spanking to get
kids in line.
>
> Kathy
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: J. Stauffer
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
>
>
> The point is that the medical professionals didn't know what to do with
> David so he was "treated" in a manner that would seem horribly abusive
to
> us.
>
> This is often what is happening in a situation where a child is treated
> roughly by a parent. Again, I am not advocating spanking, yelling,
> time-out, etc. I just don't think it is always abusive.
>
> As a therapist, it has been my experience that most abusers are quite
nice
> to their children in public....the shit hits the fan when they get home.
>
> Julie S.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 2:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
>
>
> > "No, he was tied up in a straight jacket instead <sigh>. He
eventually
> grew old enough to drug and then eventually gained some bit of
empathy....he
> still could not function in a family setting."
> >
> > That is terribly sad. I'm just not sure I understand the comparison of
an
> obvious mentally ill child to that of a normal healthy child being
spanked
> or hit for making mistakes or sometimes just for doing something the
parent
> didn't happen to like at that moment.
> >
> > Should we just close our eyes to possible abuse, so as not to sit in
> judgement of others?
> >
> > Kathy
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: J. Stauffer
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> >
> >
> > <<<Gosh I would hope that a child with a psychiatric illness
wouldn't be
> hit
> > as a solution.>>>
> >
> > No, he was tied up in a straight jacket instead <sigh>. He
eventually
> grew
> > old enough to drug and then eventually gained some bit of
empathy....he
> > still could not function in a family setting.
> >
> > Julie S.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 2:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> >
> >
> > > "That was when I quit judging the parenting techniques of other
> > parents...at least the ones I didn't know. I don't know the story."
> > >
> > > I was just trying to point out there is another way. If the only
way
> to
> > get a child to behave is by spanking, there is a much deeper problem
as
> was
> > the case in your situtation. Gosh I would hope that a child with a
> > psychiatric illness wouldn't be hit as a solution.
> > >
> > > Kathy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: J. Stauffer
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:12 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> > >
> > >
> > > <<< Curious how you all handle things like that.>>>>
> > >
> > > Back when I was a therapist working at a children's locked
> psychiatric
> > > facility, a young family admitted their 5yo child who was
mentally
> > retarded.
> > > She threw fits, bit people, didn't sleep much, etc.....but I
kept
> > wondering
> > > why in the world this family admitted her. She was 5 for gosh
> sakes. I
> > had
> > > children of my own and couldn't imagine not being able to handle
a
> 5yo.
> > >
> > > Then David came to live with us when we were foster parents.
David
> was
> > 3
> > > and actively psychotic. He threw fits almost non-stop, kept
> forgetting
> > > about the dog and screaming his head off every time he saw it,
would
> > attack
> > > other children for no apparent reason, didn't sleep at all that
I
> could
> > > tell. After 6 days, I asked for him to be moved because I
couldn't
> > handle
> > > that kid. A mother of 2 who had been trained for 6 years in
child
> > > psychology and had 10 years experience as a therapist couldn't
> handle a
> > 3 yo
> > > boy.
> > >
> > > That was when I quit judging the parenting techniques of other
> > parents...at
> > > least the ones I didn't know. I don't know the story.
> > >
> > > Do I think spanking is a good and effective parenting response?
No.
> Do
> > I
> > > think time-out is? No. Do I think every child is capable of
the
> > empathy
> > > required to make discussions of how our behavior effects others
> > effective?
> > > No. Do I think there are parents that spank their kids at the
drop
> of a
> > > hat? Yes. Do I think there are parents that have tried
talking,
> tried
> > > removing from the situation, tried distracting and then finally
> spanked
> > > because they didn't know what else to do? Yes.
> > >
> > > Have I spanked my kids? Yes. Is it something I would recommend
to
> > others?
> > > No.
> > >
> > > Julie S.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 9:53 AM
> > > Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> > >
> > >
> > > > If you are on another email list or group and something like
> spanking
> > > comes up, do you try to voice your concerns or opinions on it? I
> just
> > did
> > > because it seemed to be the norm on a board when discussing a
> > behavioural
> > > issue and I wanted the posters to know that there are others who
> feel
> > > differently even if it's not the "norm" for the group.
> > > >
> > > > I'm wondering now if it was wise, as I wait for the fall out.
> > > >
> > > > Curious how you all handle things like that.
> > > >
> > > > Kathy
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
> group.
> > > >
> > > > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> > > http://www.unschooling.com
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
> > > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
> group.
> > >
> > > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> > http://www.unschooling.com
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > ADVERTISEMENT
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jnjstau@... writes:
effective with a light, usually unintentional twist <g> Like mute point and
lacksidaisical, I think the "throws of toddlerhood" is priceless! JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> That isn'tI am immediately adding this to my collection of phrases made even more
> terribly comforting to a mom in the throws of toddlerhood.
>
effective with a light, usually unintentional twist <g> Like mute point and
lacksidaisical, I think the "throws of toddlerhood" is priceless! JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
[what JJ didn't say is the spelling should be "throes"]
<< > That isn't
effective with a light, usually unintentional twist <g> Like mute point and
lacksidaisical, I think the "throws of toddlerhood" is priceless! JJ >>
<< > That isn't
> terribly comforting to a mom in the throws of toddlerhood.I am immediately adding this to my collection of phrases made even more
>
effective with a light, usually unintentional twist <g> Like mute point and
lacksidaisical, I think the "throws of toddlerhood" is priceless! JJ >>
J. Stauffer
<<<<<Are you saying that either of those children
studying this exact type of thing don't know what to do. To judge a parent
on how they handle a situation when all you get is a single still-frame of
the movie of their lives isn't fair.
People tend to jump to the conclusion that if they see a parent meltdown
that the parent wanted to be acting that way...that this was their
plan....that they are awful, terrible people. I will tell you a real life
example to see if this helps:
You are cruising through a parking lot and just as you turn a corner you see
a dark haired woman grab a 2yo child by the arm and give her a swat on the
behind. Makes me mad just to think of that.
But let me give you the real life background. This mom had a still-born
child that she still grieved over who would have been older than this child.
The mom felt guilty that perhaps she could have done something different so
that the baby would hav lived. She played soccer as a stress-reliever for
herself and had injured her ankle the day before and was limping along. The
mom and little girl were walking alone toward the parking lot where their
car was when the little girl took off running. The mom called for her to
come back, to wait for her, to stop, etc. and the little girl laughed and
kept running. The mom was hobbling as fast as she could trying to catch the
child. The mom felt more and more panic rising in her chest as she watched
her dd getting closer and closer to the parking lot of cars. She finally
caught her right at the curb, grabbing her by the arm and giving her a swat.
The mom cried on the way home thinking of what she had done. Later, she
apologized to her daughter. The mom felt so sad that she talked to me about
it.
Was the spanking "called for"? no. Did it make her a bad mother? no.
Would a stranger upbraiding this mom be helpful? probably not.
I know people's past colors how they see things. I have never been abused
and perhaps that is why I see the above scenario happening much more often
than the woman who calls her kids names or pulls their hair when they don't
mind her immediately.
<<I think parents SHOULD feel bad when they hurt their children. I know I
do.>>
I'm not saying anything different. You admit that you sometimes hurt your
children. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't judge you as less of a person
for that.
Julie S.
> would have been helped by spanking, or that if parents resort to violencefeel
> with difficult children it's understandable and okay, that they shouldn't
> bad about it or work to change it?>>>>>Absolutely not. I'm saying that often times experts who spend years
studying this exact type of thing don't know what to do. To judge a parent
on how they handle a situation when all you get is a single still-frame of
the movie of their lives isn't fair.
People tend to jump to the conclusion that if they see a parent meltdown
that the parent wanted to be acting that way...that this was their
plan....that they are awful, terrible people. I will tell you a real life
example to see if this helps:
You are cruising through a parking lot and just as you turn a corner you see
a dark haired woman grab a 2yo child by the arm and give her a swat on the
behind. Makes me mad just to think of that.
But let me give you the real life background. This mom had a still-born
child that she still grieved over who would have been older than this child.
The mom felt guilty that perhaps she could have done something different so
that the baby would hav lived. She played soccer as a stress-reliever for
herself and had injured her ankle the day before and was limping along. The
mom and little girl were walking alone toward the parking lot where their
car was when the little girl took off running. The mom called for her to
come back, to wait for her, to stop, etc. and the little girl laughed and
kept running. The mom was hobbling as fast as she could trying to catch the
child. The mom felt more and more panic rising in her chest as she watched
her dd getting closer and closer to the parking lot of cars. She finally
caught her right at the curb, grabbing her by the arm and giving her a swat.
The mom cried on the way home thinking of what she had done. Later, she
apologized to her daughter. The mom felt so sad that she talked to me about
it.
Was the spanking "called for"? no. Did it make her a bad mother? no.
Would a stranger upbraiding this mom be helpful? probably not.
I know people's past colors how they see things. I have never been abused
and perhaps that is why I see the above scenario happening much more often
than the woman who calls her kids names or pulls their hair when they don't
mind her immediately.
<<I think parents SHOULD feel bad when they hurt their children. I know I
do.>>
I'm not saying anything different. You admit that you sometimes hurt your
children. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't judge you as less of a person
for that.
Julie S.
J. Stauffer
<<<<<It's not the occasional meltdown or even swat that bothers me. It's
parents
reality (I hit you and now you owe me an apoloby) and the warping of the
relationship (kids are nothing/kids are gifts from God) , not the swat.
Back when I worked as a therapist, we used to talk amongst ourselves about
child sexual abuse. We came to the conclusion that the molestation itself
wasn't really the problem but it was the warping of reality to cover up (mom
walking in on the abuse and ignoring it) or attempt to excuse the
molestation ("the child seduced me") that really damaged the kids.
Julie S.
parents
> who justify their actions (sometimes elaborately), own spanking tools,have
> the child apologize to the mother after the mother was the one whounreasonably
> lost it, etc.>>>>>>>This is abusive.....but the problem as I see it is the mental twisting of
reality (I hit you and now you owe me an apoloby) and the warping of the
relationship (kids are nothing/kids are gifts from God) , not the swat.
Back when I worked as a therapist, we used to talk amongst ourselves about
child sexual abuse. We came to the conclusion that the molestation itself
wasn't really the problem but it was the warping of reality to cover up (mom
walking in on the abuse and ignoring it) or attempt to excuse the
molestation ("the child seduced me") that really damaged the kids.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
>
> In a message dated 3/18/04 2:19:09 PM, jnjstau@... writes:
>
> << It means that I don't automatically assume that the person having the
>
> meltdown is lacking in some way. Every single person has had a meltdown
at
>
> one time or another, not been as kind as they wish they had,whatever. >>
>
> It's not the occasional meltdown or even swat that bothers me. It's
parents
> who justify their actions (sometimes elaborately), own spanking tools,
have
> the child apologize to the mother after the mother was the one who
unreasonably
> lost it, etc.
>
> Some moms melt down as much as they want and never feel guilty, never
desire
> to do better.
>
> Sandra, who was called "you little brat" more times than could be counted
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<[what JJ didn't say is the spelling should be "throes"]>>>
Well, pooh. At our house, toddlerhood had lots of "throw"-ing involved
<grin>
Julie S.
Well, pooh. At our house, toddlerhood had lots of "throw"-ing involved
<grin>
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
> [what JJ didn't say is the spelling should be "throes"]
>
> << > That isn't
> > terribly comforting to a mom in the throws of toddlerhood.
> >
>
> I am immediately adding this to my collection of phrases made even
more
> effective with a light, usually unintentional twist <g> Like mute point
and
> lacksidaisical, I think the "throws of toddlerhood" is priceless! JJ >>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<<And if we give up trying to do better "because nobody's
help the mom, distracting the child, etc. is a much better option than
saying to the mom "How would you like me to hit you? Assault is illegal,
you know?" or whatever.
<<<< "I don't judge" is too often like "I don't think" or "I'm just not
going to
days in the past that could have been me." And then I feel sad.
When someone who wants to unschool comes to this board and says they
panicked and gave their kids some algebra problems, I don't judge them as
being less of a parent. I think they are farther behind me in their
journey. I am thinking and I am being honest. I offer them suggestions
about what might work.
Walking up to a school-at-homer and telling them they are all wet and
unschooling is the only way to go isn't going to get me very far. Having
them see me with my kids, spend time with us playing and learning, modelling
unschooling for them might.
I feel the same about parenting issues but I think people are extremely
defensive in that area particularly. I think modelling alternative
parenting strategies, offering support is a better idea (how is that for
judgement?<grin>) than telling myself, my husband or even the parent that
the parents suck.
julie S.
> perfect," we're not doing the best we can do.>>>>>I don't think anyone is advocating this. But I think making an offer to
help the mom, distracting the child, etc. is a much better option than
saying to the mom "How would you like me to hit you? Assault is illegal,
you know?" or whatever.
<<<< "I don't judge" is too often like "I don't think" or "I'm just not
going to
> be honest.">>>>I don't agree with this at all. I react with more of "On some really bad
days in the past that could have been me." And then I feel sad.
When someone who wants to unschool comes to this board and says they
panicked and gave their kids some algebra problems, I don't judge them as
being less of a parent. I think they are farther behind me in their
journey. I am thinking and I am being honest. I offer them suggestions
about what might work.
Walking up to a school-at-homer and telling them they are all wet and
unschooling is the only way to go isn't going to get me very far. Having
them see me with my kids, spend time with us playing and learning, modelling
unschooling for them might.
I feel the same about parenting issues but I think people are extremely
defensive in that area particularly. I think modelling alternative
parenting strategies, offering support is a better idea (how is that for
judgement?<grin>) than telling myself, my husband or even the parent that
the parents suck.
julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] voicing your opinion?
>
> In a message dated 3/18/04 1:37:18 PM, bstamp@... writes:
>
> << If nobody ever shared that there is an alternative to spanking, many
moms
> might never know it. >>
>
> That's right. And if we give up trying to do better "because nobody's
> perfect," we're not doing the best we can do.
>
> -=- If the only way to get a child to behave is by spanking, there is a
much
> deeper problem as was the case in your situtation.-=-
>
> And the problem is most likely with the parent. Spanking might get a
child
> to behave a different way at the moment, but over the years, it creates a
big
> adult who wants to hit other smaller people.
>
> If someone's out of control at 50 lbs, he might grow out of it. If
someone's
> out of control at 200 lbs, the world has a problem.
>
> -="So I try not to judge." I think there is a difference between judging
and
> between trying to point out other solutions.-=-
>
> "I don't judge" is too often like "I don't think" or "I'm just not going
to
> be honest."
> Without judgment we have no better/worse, no discernment, no preferences,
not
> likes or dislikes.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
jnjstau@... writes:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Well, pooh. At our house, toddlerhood had lots of "throw"-ing involvedExactly! What she said! :) JJ
> <grin>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/18/04 02:33:21 PM Central Standard Time,
litlrooh@... writes:
I'm really not trying to criticize, but... If you don't believe in spanking
why do you then? Or am I reading this statement wrong? Your kids are familiar
enough with it to know what it means? What is it? Spanking? Because they are
familiar with it it happens? In your "rare occasion it happens" statement you
make it sound like a cold, or falling off a bike.
strategy now, instead of making statements that apply more to colds and falling
off bikes.
Obviously these are made up, not what has happened at your house. Or maybe
they have? <g>
Scene one: The kids have been in moods all day. It is like a hurricane
outside, the cable is out, the second playstation controller broke, your car has a
flat, your partner's boss promoted the office ass instead, you bought the wrong
color of hair dye and didn't notice until after you dyed it, your period is
going to start any minute, and your son decided to play an impromptu game of
baseball in the dining room and your daughter is now screaming that he wrecked
her *My Little Pony* stable. So you spank them both.
"I don't believe in it, but it happens."
Scene two: Same as above, except you intervened when you discovered the
second playstation controller was broken and now you are all sitting enjoying the
cookies you baked together, playing a rousing game of Sorry!
Bonus! You are laughing and having so much fun with the kids when you get the
call about the jerk at the office getting the promotion you can't be too
upset, you never got around to dying your hair, the chocolate in the cookies is
making you feel better about your period, you aren't going to be stepping on *My
Little Pony* pieces wrecked by a game of indoor baseball. ;o) OH! And no one
got spanked!
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
litlrooh@... writes:
>I don't believe in spanking, but my kids are familiar enough with it to knowwhat it >means. So on a rare occasion it happens.
I'm really not trying to criticize, but... If you don't believe in spanking
why do you then? Or am I reading this statement wrong? Your kids are familiar
enough with it to know what it means? What is it? Spanking? Because they are
familiar with it it happens? In your "rare occasion it happens" statement you
make it sound like a cold, or falling off a bike.
>I'm not proud of it, and I always try to go back and see what I could dodifferently >to avoid it in the future.
>But it happens.Maybe instead of investigating the whys after the fact you could develop a
strategy now, instead of making statements that apply more to colds and falling
off bikes.
Obviously these are made up, not what has happened at your house. Or maybe
they have? <g>
Scene one: The kids have been in moods all day. It is like a hurricane
outside, the cable is out, the second playstation controller broke, your car has a
flat, your partner's boss promoted the office ass instead, you bought the wrong
color of hair dye and didn't notice until after you dyed it, your period is
going to start any minute, and your son decided to play an impromptu game of
baseball in the dining room and your daughter is now screaming that he wrecked
her *My Little Pony* stable. So you spank them both.
"I don't believe in it, but it happens."
Scene two: Same as above, except you intervened when you discovered the
second playstation controller was broken and now you are all sitting enjoying the
cookies you baked together, playing a rousing game of Sorry!
Bonus! You are laughing and having so much fun with the kids when you get the
call about the jerk at the office getting the promotion you can't be too
upset, you never got around to dying your hair, the chocolate in the cookies is
making you feel better about your period, you aren't going to be stepping on *My
Little Pony* pieces wrecked by a game of indoor baseball. ;o) OH! And no one
got spanked!
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]