Heidi

what would you do, if your child wanted to go see an R-rated, very
violent, over the top ugly movie? One that you figure would damage
YOUR psyche, let alone that of a younger mind?

We don't have a "no R-rated movie" rule, and never have, but there's

ehem

"a movie" out that my 16 year old is saying she wants to go see, that
I know is too violent for me. I don't want to see it, and she can't
go without a guardian, being under 17.

What To Do?

thanks

blessings, HeidiC

pam sorooshian

If she seriously thoughtfully understanding how gruesome it was going
to be - still wanted to see it, I'd let her. Reluctantly. I'd go with
her.

But - I'd beg her to wait until it was on DVD. For my sake AND hers.

-pam
On Mar 4, 2004, at 7:02 AM, Heidi wrote:

> what would you do, if your child wanted to go see an R-rated, very
> violent, over the top ugly movie? One that you figure would damage
> YOUR psyche, let alone that of a younger mind?
>
> We don't have a "no R-rated movie" rule, and never have, but there's
>
> ehem
>
> "a movie" out that my 16 year old is saying she wants to go see, that
> I know is too violent for me. I don't want to see it, and she can't
> go without a guardian, being under 17.
>
> What To Do?
>
> thanks
>
> blessings, HeidiC
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
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<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/4/2004 10:05:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
<<what would you do, if your child wanted to go see an R-rated, very
violent, over the top ugly movie? One that you figure would damage
YOUR psyche, let alone that of a younger mind?>>


LOL! This topic comes up a lot in our house! When I was a controlling type
of parent, I use to have the rule *no R rated movies unless watched at home
with a parent present*. My rationale was that at home my children would be free
to leave the room if they were disturbed by something, and a parent would be
close at hand if they wanted to talk about something. I still think watching
movies that might be disturbing at home with a parent is a good idea, but we
don't have this rule anymore.

I don't really like watching movies at home and am very disturbed personally
by graphic displays of violence, and I'm probably more sensitive in this area
than any of my children. Letting go of the *a parent must be present* rule
gives my children the chance to see lots more movies. Also my 15 yo dd looks
like an adult and no one ever questions her when she goes to see movies at the
theater. It probably doesn't hurt that all of her friends are 17 or older.

One of the best things about dropping the movie rules is that my kids are now
far more discerning in what they watch. I think before they thought it was
cool to watch horror movies and now they just say *I don't like that*. Having
the freedom to watch anything, helps them decide what they really do want to
watch.

If I had a child who needed me to get into an R movie at the theaters, and I
really didn't want to see that movie, I would try to recruit another adult to
see it with them. If this wasn't possible, they'd have to wait 'til it came
out on DVD...which doesn't take all that long now <g>.

--Jacqueline




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/4/04 8:05:10 AM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

<< what would you do, if your child wanted to go see an R-rated, very

violent, over the top ugly movie? One that you figure would damage

YOUR psyche, let alone that of a younger mind? >>

She's sixteen?
Is there an adult friend of yours who would go with her?

I would pay someone else's ticket who'd be willing to see it with her.

If it were "The Passion of the Christ," I would try to talk her into waiting
for DVD. They WILL have DVDs soon, no doubt, considering the expense of the
movie production and their intent. It won't be as intense at home as it is in
a movie theatre in the dark where you can't easily get away from it and you're
sharing the expansive energy of a several hundred fervent fans.

Sandra

joylyn

What movie is it?

Joylyn

Heidi wrote:

> what would you do, if your child wanted to go see an R-rated, very
> violent, over the top ugly movie? One that you figure would damage
> YOUR psyche, let alone that of a younger mind?
>
> We don't have a "no R-rated movie" rule, and never have, but there's
>
> ehem
>
> "a movie" out that my 16 year old is saying she wants to go see, that
> I know is too violent for me. I don't want to see it, and she can't
> go without a guardian, being under 17.
>
> What To Do?
>
> thanks
>
> blessings, HeidiC
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
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> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

Hi Joyce

It is The Passion of the Christ. I thought for sure, the list would
figure it out: over the top violent; "a movie" as if there were any
other movie being talked about everywhere, right now...etc.

I don't want to see it because: 1)the violence 2)I don't go to other
things just because everyone else is going 3)my imagination is just
as vivid as I want it to be; Mel Gibson has a much more graphic
imagination than I. 4) I've read the book LOL

But my girl and I talked about it today, and she's decided, she
doesn't want to see the movie just because everyone in her youth
group is going. If she were to go, it would be just to check it out,
and she didn't want to attend this particular movie, "just because."
If she were desperately craving to go see it, we'd go together. As it
is, we're staying away.

blessings, heidiC

--- In [email protected], joylyn <joylyn@e...>
wrote:
> What movie is it?
>
> Joylyn
>
> Heidi wrote:
>
> > what would you do, if your child wanted to go see an R-rated, very
> > violent, over the top ugly movie? One that you figure would damage
> > YOUR psyche, let alone that of a younger mind?
> >
> > We don't have a "no R-rated movie" rule, and never have, but
there's
> >
> > ehem
> >
> > "a movie" out that my 16 year old is saying she wants to go see,
that
> > I know is too violent for me. I don't want to see it, and she
can't
> > go without a guardian, being under 17.
> >
> > What To Do?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > blessings, HeidiC
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
group.
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> > http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]?
subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
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> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Roberts

There is much worse violence in many other movies.

Elizabeth

Heidi <bunsofaluminum60@...> wrote:
Hi Joyce

It is The Passion of the Christ. I thought for sure, the list would
figure it out: over the top violent; "a movie" as if there were any
other movie being talked about everywhere, right now...etc.

I don't want to see it because: 1)the violence 2)I don't go to other
things just because everyone else is going 3)my imagination is just
as vivid as I want it to be; Mel Gibson has a much more graphic
imagination than I. 4) I've read the book LOL

But my girl and I talked about it today, and she's decided, she
doesn't want to see the movie just because everyone in her youth
group is going. If she were to go, it would be just to check it out,
and she didn't want to attend this particular movie, "just because."
If she were desperately craving to go see it, we'd go together. As it
is, we're staying away.

blessings, heidiC

--- In [email protected], joylyn <joylyn@e...>
wrote:
> What movie is it?
>
> Joylyn
>
> Heidi wrote:
>
> > what would you do, if your child wanted to go see an R-rated, very
> > violent, over the top ugly movie? One that you figure would damage
> > YOUR psyche, let alone that of a younger mind?
> >
> > We don't have a "no R-rated movie" rule, and never have, but
there's
> >
> > ehem
> >
> > "a movie" out that my 16 year old is saying she wants to go see,
that
> > I know is too violent for me. I don't want to see it, and she
can't
> > go without a guardian, being under 17.
> >
> > What To Do?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > blessings, HeidiC
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
group.
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> > http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
> >
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> > [email protected]
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subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joylyn

Heidi wrote:

> Hi Joyce

Hi Heidi

The name is Joylyn :-)

>
>
> It is The Passion of the Christ. I thought for sure, the list would
> figure it out: over the top violent; "a movie" as if there were any
> other movie being talked about everywhere, right now...etc.

I didn't want to assume.

>
>
> I don't want to see it because: 1)the violence 2)I don't go to other
> things just because everyone else is going 3)my imagination is just
> as vivid as I want it to be; Mel Gibson has a much more graphic
> imagination than I. 4) I've read the book LOL

I don't think that anyone should ever see a movie against their will. I
also think that age 16 is old enough, in most cases, to see whatever
movie she wants. Does a R rating mean you have to be there, or could
you buy the ticket and let her go. Does she havea friend who would go
with her? Again, you can buy tickets, and then go to see peter pan
yourself or something. :-) Another adult that could go with her? Wait
until it's on DVD?

>
>
> But my girl and I talked about it today, and she's decided, she
> doesn't want to see the movie just because everyone in her youth
> group is going. If she were to go, it would be just to check it out,
> and she didn't want to attend this particular movie, "just because."
> If she were desperately craving to go see it, we'd go together. As it
> is, we're staying away.

Oh, then the decisions been made.

Joylyn

>
>
> blessings, heidiC
>
> --- In [email protected], joylyn <joylyn@e...>
> wrote:
> > What movie is it?
> >
> > Joylyn
> >
> > Heidi wrote:
> >
> > > what would you do, if your child wanted to go see an R-rated, very
> > > violent, over the top ugly movie? One that you figure would damage
> > > YOUR psyche, let alone that of a younger mind?
> > >
> > > We don't have a "no R-rated movie" rule, and never have, but
> there's
> > >
> > > ehem
> > >
> > > "a movie" out that my 16 year old is saying she wants to go see,
> that
> > > I know is too violent for me. I don't want to see it, and she
> can't
> > > go without a guardian, being under 17.
> > >
> > > What To Do?
> > >
> > > thanks
> > >
> > > blessings, HeidiC
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
> group.
> > >
> > > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> > > http://www.unschooling.com
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
> > >
> > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > [email protected]
> > > <mailto:[email protected]?
> subject=Unsubscribe>
> > >
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> > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
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[email protected]

In a message dated 3/4/04 7:11:25 PM, mamabethuscg@... writes:

<< There is much worse violence in many other movies. >>

Have you see it?

My friend Rhonda thought it was the worst she had ever seen.

Sandra

joylyn

Here is a great link to look closely at movies, their content, etc.

www.gradingthemovies.com

Here is the link for Passion of Christ

http://www.gradingthemovies.com/html/mv/gtm_mv001150.shtml

This site has a very christain leaning, and one shouldn't read the
reviews if you don't want the ending given away (although that's hardly
a problem in Passion) but I have found it helpful for me in making
choices regarding which movies I want to see myself, or which movies I
want to take young children to see. I just take all they say with a
large spoon of salt, and consider this website as only one source of
information, which I use to make an informed decision.

Joylyn

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 3/4/04 7:11:25 PM, mamabethuscg@... writes:
>
> << There is much worse violence in many other movies. >>
>
> Have you see it?
>
> My friend Rhonda thought it was the worst she had ever seen.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
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> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 3/4/04 7:11:25 PM, mamabethuscg@y... writes:
>
> << There is much worse violence in many other movies. >>
>
> Have you see it?
>
> My friend Rhonda thought it was the worst she had ever seen.
>
> Sandra

I've seen it. I don't think it's worse than Quentin Tarentino films like Pulp Fiction, nor is it
worse than Good Fellas... Saving Private Ryan is gorier.

I actually felt like the movie was so stylized that the violence just didn't hit me nearly as
hard as say, Cold Mountain (more recent, far more emotionally powerful and painful to
watch movie).

If the viewer is familiar with the Christ story, then this movie doesn't hold the shock value
that other movies have. And it is possible to avert the eyes since everyone knows when the
nails will be hammered or the whip will be let fly.

The objectionable parts, for me, had less to do with the violence and more to do with the
caricatures of the Jews and Romans.

Mature teens who are used to viewing R rated movies won't find this one more difficult to
watch, though they may find the story more personal. I actually wish I had been more
moved.

Julie

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/4/04 8:14:54 PM, julie@... writes:

<< I've seen it. I don't think it's worse than Quentin Tarentino films like
Pulp Fiction, nor is it

worse than Good Fellas... Saving Private Ryan is gorier. >>

Ah, there y'go. I fear Saving Priate Ryan and will probably never see it.
I was warned off Pulp Fiction by my husband after he saw it in the theatre,
and the way I had to watch it finally was years later on DVD, in small bits.

I'm just all for video or DVD and good old "pause" and "mute" for easing into
violent or heartbreaking stories a little more slowly.

Books can be closed. Plays have intermissions. A two hour movie can be
like a roller coaster ride, in the dark.

Sandra

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:

>
> Ah, there y'go. I fear Saving Priate Ryan and will probably never see it.
> I was warned off Pulp Fiction by my husband after he saw it in the theatre,
> and the way I had to watch it finally was years later on DVD, in small bits.

When violence and drugs get combined in a movie, I'm a goner. I can't get the images out
of my mind.
>
> I'm just all for video or DVD and good old "pause" and "mute" for easing into
> violent or heartbreaking stories a little more slowly.
>
> Books can be closed. Plays have intermissions. A two hour movie can be
> like a roller coaster ride, in the dark.


Totally agree. I didn't like Pulp Fiction at all, saw it on video and will never see another one
by Tarantino again. Mafia movies always put me over the edge. I did see SPR in the theater,
though, and made it through.

I have a really hard time with violence on the screen, too. I would have waited with the
Passion, but in my context it became necessary for me to have an informed opinion. :)

Julie

unschlngmom

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 3/4/04 7:11:25 PM, mamabethuscg@y... writes:
>
> << There is much worse violence in many other movies. >>
>
> Have you see it?
>
> My friend Rhonda thought it was the worst she had ever seen.
>
> Sandra

That is exactly what I was going to ask. I saw it. It is very
horrific, violent, brutal. I'm sure the movie will have a different
effect on individuals based on thier personal beliefs. It was
particularly difficult for me because I know the story is true. It
was not some made up, blow em up, aliens from space,
action/fantasy/fiction movie. I think Heidi's daughter made the right
decision, much better to see it at home where you can walk away, fast
forward, come back later.

Diane

unschlngmom

--- .
>
> I actually felt like the movie was so stylized that the violence
just didn't hit me nearly as
> hard as say, Cold Mountain (more recent, far more emotionally
powerful and painful to
> watch movie).

I saw that too. BLAH, bunch of baloney.. totally non believable.
Ruby was the only good character. I'm glad Renee won the oscar. The
rest of characters were stereotyped and predictable.


> The objectionable parts, for me, had less to do with the violence
and more to do with the
> caricatures of the Jews and Romans.
>

I wonder, how would one make and accurate a movie about the
crucifixion and not offend the Romans or the Jews?

Diane

J. Stauffer

<<How would one make an accurate movie of the crucifixion and not offend the
Romans and the Jews?>>

I agree. I haven't seen the movie, but I know the story <grin>. I was
watching Dennis Miller tonight and they were talking about all the
anti-semitism, etc., etc..

How can something be bigotry if it is a representation of historical fact?
It is like saying "Schindler's List" is Anti-German or "The Donner Party" is
Anti-carnivore.

It isn't like it is some new theory that Mel came up with....The plot has
been around for awhile.

Julie S.

J. Stauffer

<<< A priest wrote in our diocesan paper that he felt that the Romans in
particular, in the film, were caricatures of " bad guys" so your other
comment re caricatures was interesting....Leonie >>>

Funny....Ms. Allred, a guest attorney on the Dennis Miller Show, was
claiming that the Romans were shown as sympathetic and that the Jews were
shown as the villians.

Another commentator who had seen the movie stated that he felt the movie
clearly indicated that HUMANITY was at fault.

Julie S.

queenjane555

> Funny....Ms. Allred, a guest attorney on the Dennis Miller Show, was
> claiming that the Romans were shown as sympathetic and that the
Jews were
> shown as the villians.


I haven't been able to see the movie yet, but its my understanding
that Pilate was portrayed "sympathetically" (as in, not really
wanting to crucify Jesus), but the Roman soldiers who beat and
crucified Jesus were portrayed as out of control sadists, and also
not very smart. Mel Gibson states that he wanted to be true to the
Gospels, and so i went and reread the crucifiction parts. Pilate IS
protrayed sympathetically there. Also its ridiculous for anyone to
say that "the Jews" were the villians, as obviously Jesus, Mary, Mary
Magdalene, and all of the disciples were Jewish. From everything i've
heard on tv programs, yes, the "Jewish religious leaders" were not
portrayed very positively, but again, they arent exactly heroes in
the New Testament either. I think there is some merit to the argument
that many of the arguments against this movie are arguments against
the Gospels themselves. (disclaimer: I am no Bible expert!)


> Another commentator who had seen the movie stated that he felt the
movie
> clearly indicated that HUMANITY was at fault.


As Roger Ebert argued, its such a moot point to argue who was "at
fault" as, according to Christian doctrine, Jesus' death was
preordained and *required*. Christians believe that Jesus came to
earth for the very purpose to die for our sins. He was the
"sacrificial lamb", accepted this role, and did not try to flee or to
defend himself. Mel Gibson has stated that this is the reason it is
HIS hand that was filmed pounding the first nail into Jesus' palm,
because he feels HE is as much to "blame" for the death as anyone.

Katherine

queenjane555

I was actually going to take my 7 yo son to see The Passion of the
Christ, until i read Roger Ebert's review and he stated "This is the
most violent movie i have ever seen." For a movie reviewer, who has
seen thousands of movies, to say this, means that it is VERY violent.
I don't think violent necessarily means "bad" or "without
value"...but it made me pause and think that i probably won't be
taking my son. He said he did want to go, even though its subtitled
and he isnt the quickest reader yet. I wasnt too worried about the
violence aspect because he isnt that sensitive and has been exposed
to alot of different movies. The only movie that i actually felt
super uncomfortable letting him watch was "House of 1000 Corpses",
which was actually kinda weird and funny but SUPER gory (probably one
of the most gory movies ive ever seen), it was just too "in your
face", and i asked him if he wanted $5 to go play video games instead
(in retrospect, not the safest thing to do!), and he jumped at the
chance.

I'll definantly offer him the chance to watch "Passion" when we get
it on DVD, so he can stop it or leave the room if he wants. But i
can't really imagine keeping a 16 yo from watching anything.

Personally, i find emotionally "violent" movies or scenes way more
damaging to my psyche....i will NEVER forget how i felt during the
seen in Schindler's List, where all the children were loaded up in
trucks and were being driven off, waving goodbye to their mothers,
who ran toward them screaming for their children. That pierced my
soul, just the idea of it. Or the scene in Sophie's Choice, in which
Sophie must choose which child will die, her daughter or her son.

I can't even bring myself to finish the second half of "Life Is
Beautiful"...as soon as the Nazis showed up, i turned it off. I just
didnt want to know....the other day my sister told me how it ended. I
don't know if i'll ever finish that movie.

Katherine

Dawn Adams

Diane writes:
I wonder, how would one make and accurate a movie about the
crucifixion and not offend the Romans or the Jews?
>>>>>>>>>>

Well, the Romans aren't really around anymore and from what I've heard from Jewish people in the media is that they aren't offended. Wary of what Pession plays often inspire yes, but no offended by the actual movie.

Dawn ( in NS)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dawn Adams

<<< A priest wrote in our diocesan paper that he felt that the Romans in
particular, in the film, were caricatures of " bad guys" so your other
comment re caricatures was interesting....Leonie >>>

Funny....Ms. Allred, a guest attorney on the Dennis Miller Show, was
claiming that the Romans were shown as sympathetic and that the Jews were
shown as the villians.

Another commentator who had seen the movie stated that he felt the movie
clearly indicated that HUMANITY was at fault.
>>>>>>>>>>>>

All proof that what the viewer brings to a movie is at least as important as what the filmaker intended to say with the movie. :)

Dawn (in NS)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Roberts

Yes. I didn't have a problem with what was shown in a technical manner of the violence.

In the opening scene, He steps on a snake. The fight between the apostles and the soldiers is not graphic, although they do clearly show the guy who lost an ear...but Christ heals him.

At His arrest, he's hit and spat upon. He's sent to be tortured, but not killed, by Pilate. A Cat-o'nine-tail is a brutal weapon. The damage shown actually...wasn't quite as bloody as it would have been in real life. It was more that you could clearly see the edges of the openings, whereas in real-life, had someone been beaten that severly there would have been much more blood. The blood in that scene was more of the trail as they dragged Christ away. The Roman soldiers are portrayed as enjoying what they are doing though, which "could" be true.

They do keep punching and kicking Christ at just about every oppportunity, and are shown using the butt of a spear to press the thorny crown into His head. As He is carrying the cross, they continue to strike at Him to keep Him going as if He was an animal.

The crucifixion scene itself shows them placing the nail on his hand, then shows them drawing back to drive it in...then shows it poking through the wood beneath with blood running down.

The only part that I didn't actually watch was while, on their crosses, after taunting Christ, the one theif has an eye poked out by a crow.

Afterwards, when the soldier pierces Christ's side, the blood is showing spewing forth..showering the soldier, rather than seeping out as is commonly portrayed.

What affected me was that it is so easy, even as a Christian, to just think..Ok, Christ died for my sins and it happened to be up on a cross. To keep it in a sanitized sort of understanding, not dwelling on the brutality of it.

This movie brought that home in a way nothing else has. I fully came to realize that anyone else would not have been able to keep going through all of that, let alone to live so long upon the cross. And the fact that He CHOSE to do so is amazingly wonderful.

There are some very Catholic overtones to the story as it is portrayed, but given that the director is a devout Catholic, then it's to be expected. But overall, it is true to the Gospels and wonderful.

One thing that I especially liked is that Mr. Gibson didn't ignore the spiritual warfare aspect of the entire situation. Satan is there prominently, taunting Christ and trying to get Him to give up. While the Scriptures don't mention that Satan was there, it's easy to understand that he must have been...how could he not have tried, especially given his earlier temptations to Christ?

Elizabeth

SandraDodd@... wrote:

In a message dated 3/4/04 7:11:25 PM, mamabethuscg@... writes:

<< There is much worse violence in many other movies. >>

Have you see it?

My friend Rhonda thought it was the worst she had ever seen.

Sandra


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Elizabeth Roberts

The only Romans who seemed to be sympathetic were Pilate and Claudia.
Elizabeth

"J. Stauffer" <jnjstau@...> wrote:
<<< A priest wrote in our diocesan paper that he felt that the Romans in
particular, in the film, were caricatures of " bad guys" so your other
comment re caricatures was interesting....Leonie >>>

Funny....Ms. Allred, a guest attorney on the Dennis Miller Show, was
claiming that the Romans were shown as sympathetic and that the Jews were
shown as the villians.

Another commentator who had seen the movie stated that he felt the movie
clearly indicated that HUMANITY was at fault.

Julie S.




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[email protected]

About violence and brutality on the screen, and how reason can cope
with it --



> To keep it in a sanitized sort of understanding, not dwelling on the
> brutality of it.


To reason about it rather than being emotionally overpowered and
rendered intellectually helpless before it, you mean?

Yeah, that seems to be the whole point of this film. From all accounts
(haven't seen it myself) it does an effective job of short-circuiting reason
and going straight for the emotional jugular vein, even of non-Christians one
way or another.

Religion is all about Power of Story, and so are the movies. It's a
potent combination.


>
> This movie brought that home in a way nothing else has. I fully came to
> realize that anyone else would not have been able to keep going through all of
> that, let alone to live so long upon the cross.


Not to quibble (since we just agreed this is about emotion rather than
knowledge and reason), but didn't death on the cross usually require days to
slowly perish from asphyxia? I was taught that Jesus' death was unusually
quick in coming, probably because of the earlier wounds.


>
> There are some very Catholic overtones to the story as it is portrayed, but
> given that the director is a devout Catholic, then it's to be expected. But
> overall, it is true to the Gospels and wonderful.



Again not to quibble, but I've read news accounts saying Gibson cannot
be considered a "devout Catholic" and may not be Catholic at all. Apparently
he rejects most tenets of organized Catholicism, including the Pope's
infallibility. OTOH, I am neither Catholic nor Jewish, nor have I see the movie, so
what do I know? <g> The point is that there are questions, lots of reasonable
questions, when one isn't all caught up in vivid, violent, emotional power of
it.

>
> One thing that I especially liked is that Mr. Gibson didn't ignore the
> spiritual warfare aspect of the entire situation.
>
>


Like it or not, this may be the most insightful comment I've seen
ANYONE make about this movie, Elizabeth! Good for you.

Spiritual warfare indeed. JJ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Roberts
<mamabethuscg@y...> wrote:
> There is much worse violence in many other movies.
>
> Elizabeth

Hi Elizabeth

And I don't go see those movies, either.
>
> Heidi <bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
> Hi Joyce
>
> It is The Passion of the Christ. I thought for sure, the list would
> figure it out: over the top violent;

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], "unschlngmom" <unschlngmom@a...>
wrote:

> > The objectionable parts, for me, had less to do with the violence
> and more to do with the
> > caricatures of the Jews and Romans.
> >
>
> I wonder, how would one make and accurate a movie about the
> crucifixion and not offend the Romans or the Jews?

By varying their reactions so that they aren't a uniform blob. Without going into the
historical context (except to say that at the time of the writing of the Gospels, the writers
had good reason to not offend Rome to protect themselves), I don't respect uniform
characterizations.

The Romans didn't have a particular stake in Jesus' death over, say, the two theives on the
cross. So why the extra laughter and joking and making their task harder by beating him
all the way up the Via Dolorosa?

And the Jewish angry mob scene? Please. Reminded me of bad film making, not of the
story in the Gospels.

Jhmo,
Julie

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], "J. Stauffer" <jnjstau@g...> wrote:
> <<How would one make an accurate movie of the crucifixion and not offend the
> Romans and the Jews?>>
>
> I agree. I haven't seen the movie, but I know the story <grin>. I was
> watching Dennis Miller tonight and they were talking about all the
> anti-semitism, etc., etc..
>
> How can something be bigotry if it is a representation of historical fact?
> It is like saying "Schindler's List" is Anti-German or "The Donner Party" is
> Anti-carnivore.
>
> It isn't like it is some new theory that Mel came up with....The plot has
> been around for awhile.

And that position has been responsible for the deaths of millions of Jews over the course
of our Christian history. It's one thing to show a representation of the Gospel that includes
Jewish leaders who wanted Jesus dead (there is no real treatment of the reasons for that
position in this movie), it's another to make them look like villians in a melodrama.

Check out the history of composition of the Gospels (Marcus Borg has a pretty readabled
book called _Reading the Bible Again for the First Time_). You'll get a window of insight
into why the Gospels are written the way they are based on the times in which they were
written...

Julie

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], "Gerard Westenberg" <westen@b...>
wrote:
> <<I actually wish I had been more
> moved.>>>
>
> Julie, I am interested in this comment. Why do you wish you were more moved?

Well, I probably should say I was conflicted on multiple levels going in to the movie and
had anticipated being moved to tears over what Jesus went through. I was not only not
moved, but I was left cold.

I felt like who Jesus is to me was missing from that movie.

>
> A priest wrote in our diocesan paper that he felt that the Romans in particular, in the
film, were caricatures of " bad guys" so your other comment re caricatures was
interesting....Leonie

It's easy to think that "because it's in the original story, it is legit." When we think of WWII
movies, we have had to come to a place where we no longer caricature the Japanese, for
instance, because the issues were far more complex than what we wanted to believe about
them right after WWII.

This kind of nuanced understanding of Romans, Jews, etc. has been stunted in Christian
history because of a literalist interpretation of the Gospels without also learning the
hitorical context of composition. That literalism has been the groundwork for generations
of anti-semitism.

Julie

Gerard Westenberg

<<I actually wish I had been more
moved.>>>

Julie, I am interested in this comment. Why do you wish you were more moved? I haven't seen the film and have no plans right now to see it, but I am curious about the reactions of others.

A priest wrote in our diocesan paper that he felt that the Romans in particular, in the film, were caricatures of " bad guys" so your other comment re caricatures was interesting....Leonie


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