Kelly Lenhart

>So - if you want to talk about what's going on and why TV appears to be
>such a problem in your family - we can do that, but I'll leave it alone
>for now except to say that maybe your focus is too much on the
>tv/problem. For example, did YOU go outside and enjoy yourself - maybe
>make hot chocolate and cookies and have a picnic in the gorgeous
>outdoors? Or did you just keep thinking that they "should" look outside
>and want to go out?
>-pam

When I first joined this list I made the comment that I didn't feel like I
was ready to unschool because I had a new baby (or at that point was
exhausted from expecting one) and didn't feel like I could provide enough
stimuli. Sandra and other said, "Just do it, don't bitch about it." -grin-

And, to a large extent they were right. The real issues of unschooling
didn't need to wait and we dropped the bullshit and just started living our
lives. We are much happier, my eldest son is now reading by his choice (and
well) and the middle one is counting up a storm, etc. All is well and I
daily see signs that this was SOOOO the right way to go.

But, I do see that to a much lesser extent I was right. For a million
reasons, some of which are just the details of having very small children
and some of which are my own issues I am just not doing as good a job with
the "strewing" as I'd like. And I'm finding that instead of living my life
and letting that be an example, I'm just frustrated at trying to balance
getting anything done and still involving kids who are interested.

For example--I'm not the kind of person who has patience to let a 2.5 year
old help with the dishes. On a REALLY good day, I can. But usually I just
want to get them done. So instead of letting him help, not caring when they
get done or if we get interrupted by the infant----I crab at him.

Reading this list and talking to a friend who unschools really help by
reminding me that I need to make that shift. And slowly, I am, some days.
But it's hard to get past that notion that I need to get the dishes done so
we can do something "real" and would he just go watch TV until I'm done.

And as I sit here and read that it is so farging SAD.

-sigh-

Kelly

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/8/2004 11:48:12 AM Central Standard Time, mina@...
writes:


> Reading this list and talking to a friend who unschools really help by
> reminding me that I need to make that shift. And slowly, I am, some days.
> But it's hard to get past that notion that I need to get the dishes done so
> we can do something "real" and would he just go watch TV until I'm done.
>
>

To a 2 1/2yro the dishes are as real as it can get, LOL They see you do them
all of the time so they know they are important grown up stuff and they want
in on the action.
Laura


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> For example--I'm not the kind of person who has patience to let a
> 2.5 year
> old help with the dishes. On a REALLY good day, I can. But usually I just
> want to get them done. So instead of letting him help, not caring when they
> get done or if we get interrupted by the infant----I crab at him.
>
> Reading this list and talking to a friend who unschools really help by
> reminding me that I need to make that shift. And slowly, I am, some days.
> But it's hard to get past that notion that I need to get the dishes done so
> we can do something "real" and would he just go watch TV until I'm done.
>
> And as I sit here and read that it is so farging SAD.
>



People might instinctively prefer the public library to the dishes or
the TV, but it seems to me the key is whether we're together and wanting to be
with each other, doing whatever we're doing together.

If you do, it's great no matter what it is and if you don't, it can't
be great no matter what it is.

The kids and I saw a woman with six toddlers in tow at the public
library Friday. It was raining hard, and I figured she couldn't take them all out
in it by herself (there were strollers and gear all piled up inside the front
door.) Well, none of them were being handled very well inside either. They
might have been better off playing in the rain! She had them all lined up sitting
on the floor with their backs against the check-out desk counter, and she was
daring them to move and get a time-out. They were having a great time taking
off their shoes and tossing them away, and then running after them, giggling
gleefully. She was telling them in a big voice about how "angry" she was that
they weren't "listening" and then complaining into her CELLPHONE about how
harried she was, and snatching them back by their little arms (I almost went over
at that) to shove them back in the row she was guarding.

Their party got louder and wilder until finally a sheriff came over
and interested them in his uniform for a few minutes.

I figured she was a paid daycare provider but my 14-year-old assumed
they were septuplets, or siblings with a couple of playmates -- anyway, that
the woman was Mom and not paid caregiver. I was assuming that no Mom would ever
have decided to take them all to the library in a thunderstorm in the first
place on a Friday afternoon, in all those separate strollers, at least not
without a carefully calibrated battalion of helpers! <g> And if she had, and
gotten stuck there, she'd have been reading to them to keep them entertained.

We never did find out what the real story was, but we wound up having
an interesting discussion about it, so that was a good thing and relevant to
OUR unschooling for that reason alone. We went on from there to get the
LooneyTunes DVDs, in the rainstorm, because it was something else we chose to do
because of a current interest.

My reason for telling the story here, now, is that both the library
and the cartoons for TV were part of our fun together (we left dishes in the
sink btw <eg>) because we were together doing what we wanted to do together.
OTOH, there was no way those little ones were having a good experience even though
they were "at the library" and their probably-conscientious parents were doin
g what society expected, paying some preschool caregiver to provide them with
not just care but stimulating educational experiences -- and it turned out to
be not only NOT enriching or educational, but borderline dangerous.

So I am thinking that whether it's the library and books, or tv and
videogames -- it can't be wrong if you really enjoy it together and it can't be
made right if you just don't. JJ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lenhart

>> But it's hard to get past that notion that I need to get the dishes done
so
>> we can do something "real" and would he just go watch TV until I'm done.

>To a 2 1/2yro the dishes are as real as it can get, LOL They see you do
them
>all of the time so they know they are important grown up stuff and they
want
>in on the action.
>Laura

And a large part of my frustration level right now is that I seem to be in
this middle ground where:

1. I just want to get it done.
2. I want to share the life experience and be a patient, reasonable human.
3. Those two things are polar opposites.
4. I am a bad person for not being able to just go with #2.
5. I'm even more frustrated than if I didn't care about #2.


-sigh-

It's a work in progress. Knowing the problem is the first step, blah, blah,
bleah

Kelly

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/8/04 11:26:37 AM, jrossedd@... writes:

<< So I am thinking that whether it's the library and books, or tv and
videogames -- it can't be wrong if you really enjoy it together and it can't
be
made right if you just don't. JJ >>

Just wanted to repeat that. <g>


Our culture's book worship is a serious blockade for a lot of potential
unschoolers. Books were both a goal and an avoidance tactic for people who were
good, verbal, literate students, and so they read books for rewards, and the
rewarded themselves with books (or risked trouble to read under the desk). I
was one of those kids myself.

My husband reads fantasy novels. When he reads, he is not being with the
rest of us. When he's through, we don't share that book. Nobody else is
interested in the kind of stuff he's reading. So his book reading is an isolating
thing. Not a sin, just not a shared family activity. But when we've all
watched the same movie, that can be shared. We don't even have to watch it at the
same time. <g> The discussions are as good as discussions about books. And
lately Holly has talked me into reading two novels she didn't feel quite up to
so that I could answer her questions about details in the movies: The Green
Mile, and What's Eating Gilbert Grape. I don't mind being Holly's research
assistant. <g> She doesn't want them read aloud to her, though I've read
passages from both. She just wants me to know enough that I can answer her
questions. No problem.

I watch 24 with Kirby. That's a shared experience. It's too tense for my
tastes, but I want to continue to watch with Kirby, and we've talked about how
they build the tension with camera shots and music and darkness.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/8/04 11:32:56 AM, mina@... writes:

<<

And a large part of my frustration level right now is that I seem to be in

this middle ground where:


1. I just want to get it done.

2. I want to share the life experience and be a patient, reasonable human.

3. Those two things are polar opposites.

4. I am a bad person for not being able to just go with #2.

5. I'm even more frustrated than if I didn't care about #2.

>>

You haven't decided on priorities, perhaps.

Is your child a higher priority than housework?
For many people housework is a higher priority, and the justification used is
"It's important that the house is orderly so that my children will learn to
keep an orderly house." So they blame their children for their priorities;
that doesn't make the child the priority. <g>

Is your home the basis of your unschooling? Would you still be unschooling
in a different home? If unschooling outranks the home, that might affect how
you make decisions.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/8/2004 12:48:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, mina@...
writes:
<<For example--I'm not the kind of person who has patience to let a 2.5 year
old help with the dishes. On a REALLY good day, I can. But usually I just
want to get them done. So instead of letting him help, not caring when they
get done or if we get interrupted by the infant----I crab at him.>>


I really, really understand this. I have five children and have often felt
that it is too hard to have them directly around me all the time...especially
when they were toddlers. Sometimes I just wanted to get something done and
think my own thoughts uninterrupted while doing it. I often thought I couldn't
be an unschooler because I had too many children, and I tend to be rather
introverted. I just didn't feel that I would give each of my children enough
attention if I didn't schedule it.

I think the thing that really changed my mind was becoming a single parent.
Now I had even less time, and I realized that I didn't want to spend that time
forcing my kids to do things they didn't really want to do. This is what got
me to *let go* of the academics. Even if I am not the best *strewer*, my
kids still do better than they did when we were just relaxed homeschoolers. They
are more whole, and I think about them more. I think of them as individuals
instead of as students in my homeschool class.

This list taught me about respectful parenting and that resulted in me making
the shift in regard to bedtimes, meals, and chores. I still struggle with
living peacefully with 5 other people (my children) in a small apartment when I
have a definite need for *alone* time. It really helps me to think of my
children as *people* instead of *my children*. It also helps if I continuously
choose to trust them instead of control them.

Today I took my 6yo, Lia, to the mall for her birthday. I didn't force her
to hold my hand. I basically let her do what she wanted to and trusted her to
behave appropriately instead of trying to force her to conform to my
standards. I truly listened to her, and we had a great time! In the past, I have had
some horrible times at the mall with Lia...full of struggle, disagreements,
and tears. It was wonderful to see her maturity today and to realize what a
wonderful person she is!

--Jacqueline


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lenhart

>You haven't decided on priorities, perhaps.
>Is your child a higher priority than housework?
>For many people housework is a higher priority, and the justification used
is
>"It's important that the house is orderly so that my children will learn to
>keep an orderly house." So they blame their children for their priorities;
>that doesn't make the child the priority. <g>

Well, we did just have to deal with CYS because our landlord didn't think we
were keeping the house well enough, so house keeping is a family priority.

That said, I do try to make it not a big deal, am trying to FlyLady as best
I can and make the kid time come first. And I grew up in orderly houses
with chores, etc. and it clearly didn't do me a whit of good, so no, it's
not about that.

It's more a matter of "let me get this work done so I can come over and play
with you." I have trouble making the work into play. I have to do the
dishes at some point. I can do them when the kids are asleep and sometimes
do. But if I don't get to them and need to do them when the kids are
up....well, someday I'd like to be the kind of person who can just let her 2
year old help. And realize that maybe only half of them will get done. And
maybe I'll have to do them again. Because it's more important to have that
play time.

But I'm still hung up on the "gotta do it as work" thing.


>Is your home the basis of your unschooling? Would you still be unschooling
>in a different home? If unschooling outranks the home, that might affect
how
>you make decisions.

We end up going out and spending money and not using the things we DO have
here when the house is a mess. A clean house isn't the goal in and of
itself. A clean house is a vehicle to all sorts of other things. Right now
I'm working on the idea that CLEANING house can be the vehicle in and of
itself.

Kelly
(off to see if that 2 year old wants to do dishes.)

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/9/2004 9:02:37 AM Pacific Standard Time, mina@...
writes:
> well, someday I'd like to be the kind of person who can just let her 2
> year old help.

Some ideas that have helped me:

1. Make a sign and post it above the sink. Maybe it will say, "Watch the
bubbles" -- as in, look at the bubbles, look at how the light hits them. Put
"too much" liquid soap in so you can have lots of lather. Look at your child's
hands, in among those mountains of bubbles, tiny and yet capable. Maybe your
sign will say, "Feel the warmth," -- meaning the warm water and the warm tone
in your child's voice.

The bubbles and the warm feel of the water are what I like about washing
dishes. I replace the water often because I like the fresh water with a mountain
of bubbles on top.

The point here is to find what you like about it, what your senses enjoy
about it, and write down a reminder. Focus on getting your senses involved so
that the "nagging" part of your mind can relax and be quiet.

2. If you're not in the mood to do that, get a a separate dish tub or let
your child use a different sink. Lay a towel on the floor if it's going to get
messy. Give her (him? sorry, I don't remember) the unbreakable things, the
non-sharp silverware, and let your child go at it. If the tub is on the floor
near you while you wash, you can talk while you both work. Or put on some
music that you can both work to.

I realize these may not work for your situation, but if they do, great!

Peace,
Amy




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Feb 8, 2004, at 6:35 PM, Kelly Lenhart wrote:

> But if I don't get to them and need to do them when the kids are
> up....well, someday I'd like to be the kind of person who can just let
> her 2
> year old help. And realize that maybe only half of them will get
> done. And
> maybe I'll have to do them again. Because it's more important to have
> that
> play time.

Get a big box and label it the "while mommy is working box" and put
special things into it and bring it out only when you really want to
get some work done. Be creative - make it relevant to what you're doing
if you think that'll work. I did dishes while Rosie and I listened to
books on tape - but I think she was older than your little one. She'd
bring a little kid chair into the kitchen and sit right under my feet
(we have a tiny kitchen) and that was a little annoyance but I just got
used to that and it became our habit to listen to books while I cleaned
the kitchen. Later, when she was just started reading, she'd read out
loud to me while I did dishes.

When my sisters and I were little we had a chalkboard at the end of the
kitchen and my mom would divide it into sections and draw different
"squiggles" in each section and we'd try to make a pictures out of
them. We did this while she ironed and cleaned. We also used to play
with playdough while she worked in the kitchen. And listen to the radio
- and of course I'm old enough that the radio was dramas then - "The
Shadow" etc.


-pam
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