A cry for perspective....
[email protected]
I am not sure this would fall under any unschooling topic but I hope a
few of you can offer me a few options on how I might handle this.
I am angry, I was hoping that it would pass but it is not. My 12yro plays
basketball on our church team, he has played different sports with the same kids
(and coaches) for the last several years. He likes to participate and has
always been very happy with being a team player. I have let a number of issues
pass because he has not had a problem I have. As in most organizations there are
a few fathers that always coach, they have the time and the interest and from
observation I can see how their kids perform is very important to them. The
mothers are exactly the same, they know every sport intimately and can get quite
riled though they keep it within acceptable (so they don't get thrown out
acceptable) limits.
Except for volleyball which has a mother coaching who is wonderful and fair
my son sits out a good bit. He is a good player but I guess he is not a "star"
player. (I also think how the coach plays a player and the message he sends
affects a persons playing, we live up or down to others expectations but that is
another post)
Both coaches sons are "star" players, there are a number of very good players
on the team. My son missed both practices last week and was therefore
relegated to playing just a few minutes of one quarter. It was never put into words
but a comment made at team picture day Sunday confirmed what we already
thought, sitting out longer than usual was a punitive measure. What really hurt was
that one of our older boys came and also one of my son's friends.
This is getting wordy, please bear with me.
I am having a real problem with all of this because even if my son went to
both practices he only ever gets to play a quarter at most. I might even be able
to swallow that had I not witnessed this. The assistant Coaches son has a
hard time staying calm, when he is getting stressed because they are behind or he
has made a mistake he does something so that he can act like he is injured so
he can go sit down and cry, when he is finished crying he wants right back in
the game. I watched a few weeks ago this whole scenario and watched him get
back up and say something to his father who right away reached over (they were
having a time out) and tap my son on the shoulder, my son's face dropped, he
too knew what was going on. This happend every time.
I watched it happen again this week with a different kid since my son was
benched anyhow.
My DH thinks I should let it go, I am gagging on it. I do not want to call
and scream at them, I want to call and explain how this all looks from another
POV. My son has signed up to play baseball with pretty much the same people
and I am trying to find a way to get through this.
Should I call the coach about the inconsistencies I see or should I let it
go? If I should let it go I need to find a way to look at the situation that
does now appall me.
Help!
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
few of you can offer me a few options on how I might handle this.
I am angry, I was hoping that it would pass but it is not. My 12yro plays
basketball on our church team, he has played different sports with the same kids
(and coaches) for the last several years. He likes to participate and has
always been very happy with being a team player. I have let a number of issues
pass because he has not had a problem I have. As in most organizations there are
a few fathers that always coach, they have the time and the interest and from
observation I can see how their kids perform is very important to them. The
mothers are exactly the same, they know every sport intimately and can get quite
riled though they keep it within acceptable (so they don't get thrown out
acceptable) limits.
Except for volleyball which has a mother coaching who is wonderful and fair
my son sits out a good bit. He is a good player but I guess he is not a "star"
player. (I also think how the coach plays a player and the message he sends
affects a persons playing, we live up or down to others expectations but that is
another post)
Both coaches sons are "star" players, there are a number of very good players
on the team. My son missed both practices last week and was therefore
relegated to playing just a few minutes of one quarter. It was never put into words
but a comment made at team picture day Sunday confirmed what we already
thought, sitting out longer than usual was a punitive measure. What really hurt was
that one of our older boys came and also one of my son's friends.
This is getting wordy, please bear with me.
I am having a real problem with all of this because even if my son went to
both practices he only ever gets to play a quarter at most. I might even be able
to swallow that had I not witnessed this. The assistant Coaches son has a
hard time staying calm, when he is getting stressed because they are behind or he
has made a mistake he does something so that he can act like he is injured so
he can go sit down and cry, when he is finished crying he wants right back in
the game. I watched a few weeks ago this whole scenario and watched him get
back up and say something to his father who right away reached over (they were
having a time out) and tap my son on the shoulder, my son's face dropped, he
too knew what was going on. This happend every time.
I watched it happen again this week with a different kid since my son was
benched anyhow.
My DH thinks I should let it go, I am gagging on it. I do not want to call
and scream at them, I want to call and explain how this all looks from another
POV. My son has signed up to play baseball with pretty much the same people
and I am trying to find a way to get through this.
Should I call the coach about the inconsistencies I see or should I let it
go? If I should let it go I need to find a way to look at the situation that
does now appall me.
Help!
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wendy Carr
This is one reason I have never put my son in sports! This stuff happens all the time, and I just don't want to deal with it. I hope you figure this out, and soon! Good luck!
----- Original Message -----
From: BonKnit@...<mailto:BonKnit@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 11:00 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] A cry for perspective....
I am not sure this would fall under any unschooling topic but I hope a
few of you can offer me a few options on how I might handle this.
I am angry, I was hoping that it would pass but it is not. My 12yro plays
basketball on our church team, he has played different sports with the same kids
(and coaches) for the last several years. He likes to participate and has
always been very happy with being a team player. I have let a number of issues
pass because he has not had a problem I have. As in most organizations there are
a few fathers that always coach, they have the time and the interest and from
observation I can see how their kids perform is very important to them. The
mothers are exactly the same, they know every sport intimately and can get quite
riled though they keep it within acceptable (so they don't get thrown out
acceptable) limits.
Except for volleyball which has a mother coaching who is wonderful and fair
my son sits out a good bit. He is a good player but I guess he is not a "star"
player. (I also think how the coach plays a player and the message he sends
affects a persons playing, we live up or down to others expectations but that is
another post)
Both coaches sons are "star" players, there are a number of very good players
on the team. My son missed both practices last week and was therefore
relegated to playing just a few minutes of one quarter. It was never put into words
but a comment made at team picture day Sunday confirmed what we already
thought, sitting out longer than usual was a punitive measure. What really hurt was
that one of our older boys came and also one of my son's friends.
This is getting wordy, please bear with me.
I am having a real problem with all of this because even if my son went to
both practices he only ever gets to play a quarter at most. I might even be able
to swallow that had I not witnessed this. The assistant Coaches son has a
hard time staying calm, when he is getting stressed because they are behind or he
has made a mistake he does something so that he can act like he is injured so
he can go sit down and cry, when he is finished crying he wants right back in
the game. I watched a few weeks ago this whole scenario and watched him get
back up and say something to his father who right away reached over (they were
having a time out) and tap my son on the shoulder, my son's face dropped, he
too knew what was going on. This happend every time.
I watched it happen again this week with a different kid since my son was
benched anyhow.
My DH thinks I should let it go, I am gagging on it. I do not want to call
and scream at them, I want to call and explain how this all looks from another
POV. My son has signed up to play baseball with pretty much the same people
and I am trying to find a way to get through this.
Should I call the coach about the inconsistencies I see or should I let it
go? If I should let it go I need to find a way to look at the situation that
does now appall me.
Help!
Laura
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/04 9:08:04 AM, BonKnit@... writes:
<< I am angry, I was hoping that it would pass but it is not. My 12yro plays
basketball on our church team, he has played different sports with the same
kids
(and coaches) for the last several years. He likes to participate and has
always been very happy with being a team player. >>
I want to pick three words out of this and tell you what my first impression
was:
church
team
happy
Churches always have and always will have social problems. Some of them ARE
social problems.
Teams always have and always will have problems. Either they're run "fairly"
and they stink, or they're run to win, and that stinks for those who don't
feel it was fair. That problem has existed since people said "let's share."
"Happy" is the main one. If your so is happy, he will still go. If he's not
happy, don't press him to go.
You can't change church. You can't change teams.
And part of your complaint is the overinvolvement of parents. Don't become
one.
If YOUR happiness depends on your son's happiness, that's co-dependency.
You're not on the team. You're not even on the team of coach-supporting,
kid-pushing moms, it doesn't sound like.
If you're freaking out on the side, will your son be trying to decide what to
do based in part on whether it will make you happy? That's too much
responsibility for him.
Maybe you can just tell him once a week or less "You don't have to go if you
don't want to." But if the not going involves practices, that will cost him at
games.
Not all kids are great athletes or singers or actors or swimmers, and in a
case in which a team is trying to fulfill a goal, that goal is rarely to give
everyone a chance.
<<My DH thinks I should let it go, I am gagging on it. >>
How does your son feel?
<<I do not want to call
and scream at them,>>
Good!
<< I want to call and explain how this all looks from another POV.>>
If you really want to do anything, put it in writing. Then you can polish it
and say your whole piece without the coach interrupting or justifying. Print
it out. Make a copy. Sign it in pretty ink. Give it to him in writing so
he can't forget or misquote or ignore.
It probably won't help him, but it might help you.
<<If I should let it go I need to find a way to look at the situation that
does now appall me.>>
Do you have to go to the games yourself? Really. Marty wants to play ice
hockey again this coming year. We bought him skates on Saturday. We went to
the rink and picked up the schedule. He would be on the dregs team (our term,
not theirs) for being a homeschooler, with kids from high schools not big
enough to have a team, but that's fine. But if he does play, I intend to solicit
hockey-fan friends of ours to go and cheer him on. I do NOT want to watch
him play. I watched him when he was 8/9 and it was not easy. His dad was in
Minneapolis working and so I was the one to take him to games. I care SO much
more about Marty's safety and his pretty face than I do about hockey. It's so
stressful for me that I'm a detriment.
Do you think maybe if watching the games makes you a bundle of motherly
frustration that you could just go shopping during games or maybe stay home and
cook him his very favorite foods so when he gets home he can tell you the good
parts of the game without you editorializing what he says because you saw what
one of the other dads looked like or heard what one of the moms said? It seems
like what's smallish to him is huge to you, perhaps.
There are options, though. Maybe you don't have to be at every game.
Sandra
<< I am angry, I was hoping that it would pass but it is not. My 12yro plays
basketball on our church team, he has played different sports with the same
kids
(and coaches) for the last several years. He likes to participate and has
always been very happy with being a team player. >>
I want to pick three words out of this and tell you what my first impression
was:
church
team
happy
Churches always have and always will have social problems. Some of them ARE
social problems.
Teams always have and always will have problems. Either they're run "fairly"
and they stink, or they're run to win, and that stinks for those who don't
feel it was fair. That problem has existed since people said "let's share."
"Happy" is the main one. If your so is happy, he will still go. If he's not
happy, don't press him to go.
You can't change church. You can't change teams.
And part of your complaint is the overinvolvement of parents. Don't become
one.
If YOUR happiness depends on your son's happiness, that's co-dependency.
You're not on the team. You're not even on the team of coach-supporting,
kid-pushing moms, it doesn't sound like.
If you're freaking out on the side, will your son be trying to decide what to
do based in part on whether it will make you happy? That's too much
responsibility for him.
Maybe you can just tell him once a week or less "You don't have to go if you
don't want to." But if the not going involves practices, that will cost him at
games.
Not all kids are great athletes or singers or actors or swimmers, and in a
case in which a team is trying to fulfill a goal, that goal is rarely to give
everyone a chance.
<<My DH thinks I should let it go, I am gagging on it. >>
How does your son feel?
<<I do not want to call
and scream at them,>>
Good!
<< I want to call and explain how this all looks from another POV.>>
If you really want to do anything, put it in writing. Then you can polish it
and say your whole piece without the coach interrupting or justifying. Print
it out. Make a copy. Sign it in pretty ink. Give it to him in writing so
he can't forget or misquote or ignore.
It probably won't help him, but it might help you.
<<If I should let it go I need to find a way to look at the situation that
does now appall me.>>
Do you have to go to the games yourself? Really. Marty wants to play ice
hockey again this coming year. We bought him skates on Saturday. We went to
the rink and picked up the schedule. He would be on the dregs team (our term,
not theirs) for being a homeschooler, with kids from high schools not big
enough to have a team, but that's fine. But if he does play, I intend to solicit
hockey-fan friends of ours to go and cheer him on. I do NOT want to watch
him play. I watched him when he was 8/9 and it was not easy. His dad was in
Minneapolis working and so I was the one to take him to games. I care SO much
more about Marty's safety and his pretty face than I do about hockey. It's so
stressful for me that I'm a detriment.
Do you think maybe if watching the games makes you a bundle of motherly
frustration that you could just go shopping during games or maybe stay home and
cook him his very favorite foods so when he gets home he can tell you the good
parts of the game without you editorializing what he says because you saw what
one of the other dads looked like or heard what one of the moms said? It seems
like what's smallish to him is huge to you, perhaps.
There are options, though. Maybe you don't have to be at every game.
Sandra
Wife2Vegman
--- Jen Garrison Stuber <garrisonstuber@...>
wrote:
volleyball. Sarah was playing on a private school's
team. The year before the emphasis had been on fun,
gaining experience, and team work. It was the first
year the school had a team.
This year it was on winning.
The coach asked the girls if winning was important and
if she should play them all equally or put the best
players in to win.
Of course the girls all said to play the best players,
because who wants to be accused of causing the team to
lose and disappoint everyone else, just because of
their "selfish" desire to play? Sheesh...
They were still expected to come to all the practices
though, and put in as much effort as the star players.
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
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wrote:
> The inconsistency is between your premise of teamWe had a similar experience this past fall with
> sports (working as a
> team, rotation, fairness, collaboration), and the
> coachs' (and other
> parents') premise of team sports (play the "star"
> players to win the
> game).
>
> You're dead on about self-fulfilling prophecies
> ("poor" players play
> "poorly"--well, duh, with less attention and fewer
> opportunities . .
> .), and I think that very much factors in here.
volleyball. Sarah was playing on a private school's
team. The year before the emphasis had been on fun,
gaining experience, and team work. It was the first
year the school had a team.
This year it was on winning.
The coach asked the girls if winning was important and
if she should play them all equally or put the best
players in to win.
Of course the girls all said to play the best players,
because who wants to be accused of causing the team to
lose and disappoint everyone else, just because of
their "selfish" desire to play? Sheesh...
They were still expected to come to all the practices
though, and put in as much effort as the star players.
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/04 10:48:53 AM, garrisonstuber@... writes:
<< You're dead on about self-fulfilling prophecies ("poor" players play
"poorly"--well, duh, with less attention and fewer opportunities . .
.), and I think that very much factors in here. >>
If Howard Gardner's right (and why wouldn't he be? <g>) then there is an
intelligence that covers physical ability (kinesthetic). More than one for sports
(kinesthetic, spatial, logical, interpersonal).
Some kids WILL have more than others, whether they spend the whole game
playing or on the bench, whether they go to 40 practices or none.
Probably the coaches' kids are better because of genetics and opportunity.
They were good before the dads decided to coach, probably, rather than the
other way around.
<<However, that the team(s) are
associated with the church may give you room to speak with the pastor
about your premise and theirs, and s/he may have some perspective on
the whole thing, as well.>>
Still, though, if the majority of the kids are enjoying it, it wouldn't make
sense to change the system for one or two kids.
Very cool story, Jen. I'd want to work with him too!
-=-On sportsmanship in the face of unfairness:
The other day I was watching "The Apprentice" (the "reality" show
where D. Trump is "interviewing" for someone to run one of his
companies for a year). A fellow named Bowie was chucked (I think
because he waffled on his answer of who was the worst player), but in
his cab ride of shame, instead of insulting Trump, the other players,
or the process, he thanked Trump, the show, and his fellow players,
and wished them the best. If I had a company, I'd have been calling
the guy that night--there's one classy fellow. (I'm betting we *DO*
see him hired on by a firm).-=-
Sandra
<< You're dead on about self-fulfilling prophecies ("poor" players play
"poorly"--well, duh, with less attention and fewer opportunities . .
.), and I think that very much factors in here. >>
If Howard Gardner's right (and why wouldn't he be? <g>) then there is an
intelligence that covers physical ability (kinesthetic). More than one for sports
(kinesthetic, spatial, logical, interpersonal).
Some kids WILL have more than others, whether they spend the whole game
playing or on the bench, whether they go to 40 practices or none.
Probably the coaches' kids are better because of genetics and opportunity.
They were good before the dads decided to coach, probably, rather than the
other way around.
<<However, that the team(s) are
associated with the church may give you room to speak with the pastor
about your premise and theirs, and s/he may have some perspective on
the whole thing, as well.>>
Still, though, if the majority of the kids are enjoying it, it wouldn't make
sense to change the system for one or two kids.
Very cool story, Jen. I'd want to work with him too!
-=-On sportsmanship in the face of unfairness:
The other day I was watching "The Apprentice" (the "reality" show
where D. Trump is "interviewing" for someone to run one of his
companies for a year). A fellow named Bowie was chucked (I think
because he waffled on his answer of who was the worst player), but in
his cab ride of shame, instead of insulting Trump, the other players,
or the process, he thanked Trump, the show, and his fellow players,
and wished them the best. If I had a company, I'd have been calling
the guy that night--there's one classy fellow. (I'm betting we *DO*
see him hired on by a firm).-=-
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/2004 10:37:32 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
know how they work (or don't work for everyone as the case may be). I won't
pretend I like it at least in the younger age groups. I was always under the
impression that the younger teams were developmental teams which I took to mean "we
are learning the game in a fun, safe environment for all". I learned long ago
that while I may come across a good team/coach just as I came across good
caring teachers when my kids were in school that I shouldn't come to expect that
as the norm cause it just wasn't so. It has been my experience for the most
part that as one thing you mentioned "They are in it to win", the kids feelings
be damned.
<And part of your complaint is the overinvolvement of parents. Don't become
one>
I don't intend to which is why I wrote asking for help with perspective. I
did ask my DH to go in for picture day because I didn't feel up to going in and
making nice.
<If YOUR happiness depends on your son's happiness, that's co-dependency.
You're not on the team. You're not even on the team of coach-supporting,
kid-pushing moms, it doesn't sound like.
If you're freaking out on the side, will your son be trying to decide what to
do based in part on whether it will make you happy? That's too much
responsibility for him.>
No, I don't give him my feelings. Last week he walked out at the end of the
game and did not want to go to the end of game coach huddle thing, we did not
force him, he was angry and upset and we just let him have that. I love that my
DH is very OK with who our kids are though he sees what I see.
<
Maybe you can just tell him once a week or less "You don't have to go if you
don't want to." But if the not going involves practices, that will cost him
at
games.>
We did talk about it and I let the decision to go to practice or not be his,
I don't think he realized they would be punitive about it though. Now he
knows.
Just talking it out or writing it out has helped I can pinpoint my problem, I
am just angry at the inconsistency and what I perceive as smugness on their
part in letting my son know "the rules." As my mother would so aptly put it I
want to rip their masks off.
<How does your son feel?>
I try hard not to give him my anger, that is too much to deal with.
<<I
If you really want to do anything, put it in writing. Then you can polish it
and say your whole piece without the coach interrupting or justifying. Print
it out. Make a copy. Sign it in pretty ink. Give it to him in writing so
he can't forget or misquote or ignore.
It probably won't help him, but it might help you.>
Good idea, yes, I admit this is all about me and my anger at them.
<<I
There are options, though. Maybe you don't have to be at every game.>
I have skipped a couple of basketball games and I may have to sit out a few
baseball. In a way it is almost a sad thing to sit back from this and see how
important these sports are to these people. I feel sorry for their kids too
even if they seem to enjoy it. It is all done towards a goal, I am sure they are
looking to high school and the college scholarships and we are just not on
that track. It is hard when we are playing for different reasons.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Teams always have and always will have problems. Either they're runI do agree and as 12yro is my 6th son I have seen a good many teams, I do
> "fairly"
> and they stink, or they're run to win, and that stinks for those who don't
> feel it was fair. That problem has existed since people said "let's share."
>
>
know how they work (or don't work for everyone as the case may be). I won't
pretend I like it at least in the younger age groups. I was always under the
impression that the younger teams were developmental teams which I took to mean "we
are learning the game in a fun, safe environment for all". I learned long ago
that while I may come across a good team/coach just as I came across good
caring teachers when my kids were in school that I shouldn't come to expect that
as the norm cause it just wasn't so. It has been my experience for the most
part that as one thing you mentioned "They are in it to win", the kids feelings
be damned.
<And part of your complaint is the overinvolvement of parents. Don't become
one>
I don't intend to which is why I wrote asking for help with perspective. I
did ask my DH to go in for picture day because I didn't feel up to going in and
making nice.
<If YOUR happiness depends on your son's happiness, that's co-dependency.
You're not on the team. You're not even on the team of coach-supporting,
kid-pushing moms, it doesn't sound like.
If you're freaking out on the side, will your son be trying to decide what to
do based in part on whether it will make you happy? That's too much
responsibility for him.>
No, I don't give him my feelings. Last week he walked out at the end of the
game and did not want to go to the end of game coach huddle thing, we did not
force him, he was angry and upset and we just let him have that. I love that my
DH is very OK with who our kids are though he sees what I see.
<
Maybe you can just tell him once a week or less "You don't have to go if you
don't want to." But if the not going involves practices, that will cost him
at
games.>
We did talk about it and I let the decision to go to practice or not be his,
I don't think he realized they would be punitive about it though. Now he
knows.
Just talking it out or writing it out has helped I can pinpoint my problem, I
am just angry at the inconsistency and what I perceive as smugness on their
part in letting my son know "the rules." As my mother would so aptly put it I
want to rip their masks off.
<How does your son feel?>
I try hard not to give him my anger, that is too much to deal with.
<<I
If you really want to do anything, put it in writing. Then you can polish it
and say your whole piece without the coach interrupting or justifying. Print
it out. Make a copy. Sign it in pretty ink. Give it to him in writing so
he can't forget or misquote or ignore.
It probably won't help him, but it might help you.>
Good idea, yes, I admit this is all about me and my anger at them.
<<I
There are options, though. Maybe you don't have to be at every game.>
I have skipped a couple of basketball games and I may have to sit out a few
baseball. In a way it is almost a sad thing to sit back from this and see how
important these sports are to these people. I feel sorry for their kids too
even if they seem to enjoy it. It is all done towards a goal, I am sure they are
looking to high school and the college scholarships and we are just not on
that track. It is hard when we are playing for different reasons.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/2004 12:09:45 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
just gifted in this game, I would bet he is good at other sports as well. What
I so much enjoyed in this kid is that he was not a starliner, he played well,
with grace and natural ability that can't be faked. He was also one of the
most generous kids on the team, while the coaches son rarely passed the ball to
my son this kid did not have the "team" mindset, he had not played with this
particular group of boys before so he didn't have the "game plan" so to speak
in his mind, in other words he did not know my son's "place" on the team and
consistantly passed my son the ball, which allowed my son in one game to make an
excellent play, a lay-up which he would have never been allowed to try
normally. It was one of those rare moments.
I just thought of another thing that I realize has been working on me. It's
how whenever my son would do something good the coach moms would always make
sure to tell me what a good job he did. They don't reassure each other when
their boys do something good. I guess that has always made me feel singled out as
though my son doing something good was really something to shout about. Just
odd things that stick in ones crawl.I think these are also things that are
affecting the way I feel. (I would never have said to the one coach mom, It's so
good to see K make it through the game this week w/o falling apart, he must be
maturing, you must be proud.)
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Probably the coaches' kids are better because of genetics and opportunity.One thing I have truly enjoyed is watching one boy who is what I would call
>
> They were good before the dads decided to coach, probably, rather than the
> other way around.
>
just gifted in this game, I would bet he is good at other sports as well. What
I so much enjoyed in this kid is that he was not a starliner, he played well,
with grace and natural ability that can't be faked. He was also one of the
most generous kids on the team, while the coaches son rarely passed the ball to
my son this kid did not have the "team" mindset, he had not played with this
particular group of boys before so he didn't have the "game plan" so to speak
in his mind, in other words he did not know my son's "place" on the team and
consistantly passed my son the ball, which allowed my son in one game to make an
excellent play, a lay-up which he would have never been allowed to try
normally. It was one of those rare moments.
I just thought of another thing that I realize has been working on me. It's
how whenever my son would do something good the coach moms would always make
sure to tell me what a good job he did. They don't reassure each other when
their boys do something good. I guess that has always made me feel singled out as
though my son doing something good was really something to shout about. Just
odd things that stick in ones crawl.I think these are also things that are
affecting the way I feel. (I would never have said to the one coach mom, It's so
good to see K make it through the game this week w/o falling apart, he must be
maturing, you must be proud.)
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/2004 11:48:46 AM Central Standard Time,
garrisonstuber@... writes:
situation worse. I just need to get some distance from it.
<You may want to have some conversations with your kid along the lines
of what you consider important (being part of the team, giving 100%
even if you're only called .05% of the time, practicing to become a
better player, the value of sportsmanship). >
We have had this conversation before and we just had it again. I don't care
if you play or not but if you play here are the rules of the team. If you
choose not to follow them all, or not all of the time then you need to understand
what the consequences are.
He did not want to go do the team picture Sunday because he was still mad but
I explained that the baseball team is made up of the same kids and a mix of
the same coaches and they will not forget if you mess up their team picture. I
let it be his choice whether to go or not but made sure he understood that
there might be repercussions. He decided to go...with dad, LOL
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
garrisonstuber@... writes:
> You could call the coach, but I hasten to discourage you--the coach isYes, you are right and that is why I have held back. I don't want to make the
> not inconsistent within his premise "play the "star" players to win
> the game"--the inconsistency is between his premise and yours. (Which
> is not to say that I don't completely agree with yours: I do. I just
> think the conversation will be fruitless and frustrating).
>
>
situation worse. I just need to get some distance from it.
<You may want to have some conversations with your kid along the lines
of what you consider important (being part of the team, giving 100%
even if you're only called .05% of the time, practicing to become a
better player, the value of sportsmanship). >
We have had this conversation before and we just had it again. I don't care
if you play or not but if you play here are the rules of the team. If you
choose not to follow them all, or not all of the time then you need to understand
what the consequences are.
He did not want to go do the team picture Sunday because he was still mad but
I explained that the baseball team is made up of the same kids and a mix of
the same coaches and they will not forget if you mess up their team picture. I
let it be his choice whether to go or not but made sure he understood that
there might be repercussions. He decided to go...with dad, LOL
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/2004 11:37:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
There are options, though. Maybe you don't have to be at every game.
Sandra
I've coached lots of teams, my children have played on lots more. I've seen
the faces and heard the words of the kids who have parents who do NOT come to
their games. I'd ask my child if it was important to them that I be at their
games. Most times it is very important to them.
My 19 year old has played on teams since he was three, every year, every
season. When he gets angry at me and wants to throw something at me to "prove"
I've been a neglectful mother in some way, he will still say, remember those two
times you didn't come to my games? I'll remind him it was only one game I've
missed in sixteen years. He'll remind me the game I sat in the car and
watched in the freezing rain the day I was released from the hospital after giving
birth counts as NOT being at the game because he couldn't see or hear me,
although I could see him play.
The other game I missed, I was in the middle of giving birth, no chance I
could be there. Sometimes it's VERY important to them. He rarely remembers I
rescheduled surgery three times one spring so I could see his play off games
when he had pro scouts watching him pitch. It's the times that I wasn't there
that stick out most in his mind.
I'm sorry it hurts him so much to remember me not being there.
I definitely would ask.
Oh, and many times it IS hard to watch as a mother, but I do it because I
love him and it's important to him.
I also think that it's up to a coach to find a way to win games including the
team. If one or two players playing part of a ballgame of any kind cause you
to not win, then as a coach you aren't really coaching very well, in my
opinion. You win as a team, you loose as a team, but I know it doesn't always work
out that way, I'm sorry for those children the coach has less faith in. They
surprise you most sometimes I think. Great heart always wins with me over
great talent with attitude...
If you did talk to the coach, maybe mentioning very calmly that your child
would be so lifted up by getting in the game a little more and he feels he
really needs to contribute to the team more than he currently is doing. I'd leave
it at that. Make it seem like it's all about your child, not the coach's
coaching style. After all isn't it supposed to be about the KIDS anyway?
Best of luck with this situation.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
There are options, though. Maybe you don't have to be at every game.
Sandra
I've coached lots of teams, my children have played on lots more. I've seen
the faces and heard the words of the kids who have parents who do NOT come to
their games. I'd ask my child if it was important to them that I be at their
games. Most times it is very important to them.
My 19 year old has played on teams since he was three, every year, every
season. When he gets angry at me and wants to throw something at me to "prove"
I've been a neglectful mother in some way, he will still say, remember those two
times you didn't come to my games? I'll remind him it was only one game I've
missed in sixteen years. He'll remind me the game I sat in the car and
watched in the freezing rain the day I was released from the hospital after giving
birth counts as NOT being at the game because he couldn't see or hear me,
although I could see him play.
The other game I missed, I was in the middle of giving birth, no chance I
could be there. Sometimes it's VERY important to them. He rarely remembers I
rescheduled surgery three times one spring so I could see his play off games
when he had pro scouts watching him pitch. It's the times that I wasn't there
that stick out most in his mind.
I'm sorry it hurts him so much to remember me not being there.
I definitely would ask.
Oh, and many times it IS hard to watch as a mother, but I do it because I
love him and it's important to him.
I also think that it's up to a coach to find a way to win games including the
team. If one or two players playing part of a ballgame of any kind cause you
to not win, then as a coach you aren't really coaching very well, in my
opinion. You win as a team, you loose as a team, but I know it doesn't always work
out that way, I'm sorry for those children the coach has less faith in. They
surprise you most sometimes I think. Great heart always wins with me over
great talent with attitude...
If you did talk to the coach, maybe mentioning very calmly that your child
would be so lifted up by getting in the game a little more and he feels he
really needs to contribute to the team more than he currently is doing. I'd leave
it at that. Make it seem like it's all about your child, not the coach's
coaching style. After all isn't it supposed to be about the KIDS anyway?
Best of luck with this situation.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/2004 12:52:29 PM Central Standard Time,
WendyWCarr@... writes:
decision I would not have my kids play sports but they like it. They may get mad
at the infairness sometimes but I can see I am the one who has the bigger
issues, LOL
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
WendyWCarr@... writes:
> This is one reason I have never put my son in sports! This stuff happensActually I do feel better after being able to talk about it. If it were my
> all the time, and I just don't want to deal with it. I hope you figure this
> out, and soon! Good luck!
>
decision I would not have my kids play sports but they like it. They may get mad
at the infairness sometimes but I can see I am the one who has the bigger
issues, LOL
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/2004 1:25:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, BonKnit@...
writes:
I feel sorry for their kids too
even if they seem to enjoy it. It is all done towards a goal, I am sure they
are
looking to high school and the college scholarships and we are just not on
that track. It is hard when we are playing for different reasons.
Laura
Laura,
One thing did come to mind as I read and re-read your post. Being on
different tracks. For some kids it is their ultimate dream to play some pro sport.
They never miss a practice, they work at home, they read books, heck some
sleep with their baseball glove or a football or whatever. It's their dream.
They see it on TV or wherever and they WANT it for themselves. Some parents work
hard to help their child achieve whatever dreams they have. Buying expensive
equipment (did you know some baseball bats are $500.00?), driving them to and
from practice, making arrangements to be at games. Whatever they can think
of to support their son or daughter.
Other parents have children that just want to play a sport. Just for the fun
of it, just to be a part of a team and around other children. They have no
intense desire to make it a life long goal of achievement, they know this,
their parents know this. They play on a different level. Practice really isn't
that important to them, because the "game" (as in general not as in one
particular day of seven innings or whatever), it's just a PART of what makes them
happy and who they are.
So two children and two (or four or six) parents come to the same game with
the same coaches with completely different agendas.
Personally if a child misses practice, they sit, no matter who. Even the
"star" would sit the first half or first innings. As a coach, you recognize that
everyone has other "stuff" to do, some make practice a priority and some
don't. The one's who do, obviously want to play. Now if there is a funeral or
wedding or something other than then child just choosing to not come, that's
different.
I still believe that every child who commits to being on a team should be
treated as a team member and be given playing time. Should every child get the
exact same number of innings/quarters? I firmly believe that in the younger
ages, maybe nine and younger that should be true. Most often around here that's
how it goes. Everyone plays the same number of innings/quarters, for the
most part. If you miss practice however, that means you sit, regardless. The
older teams don't do that fairness, number of innings thing, they do sit you if
you don't practice.
Should they base playing time on ability? Maybe dedication to the team?
Maybe who's dad coaches? Most likely it's going to be based on putting the best
nine or five or twelve on the field to win the game. But in any given game,
in any given play, ANY child should be able to be considered one of the best,
five, nine or twelve on the field/court.
I have always respected the child that comes to me personally and told me
they felt they could do more to help the team out, by being on the field more,
playing more innings and were willing to do whatever it took to get into the
game more. I've never much been affected by the parent who comes to me with the
same concerns.
Maybe have your son approach the coach and tell him he's wants to step up his
play to the next level, to play more and sit less and what could he do to
accomplish that goal?
I hope your son has a great time with basketball AND baseball, my very
favorite sport!
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
I feel sorry for their kids too
even if they seem to enjoy it. It is all done towards a goal, I am sure they
are
looking to high school and the college scholarships and we are just not on
that track. It is hard when we are playing for different reasons.
Laura
Laura,
One thing did come to mind as I read and re-read your post. Being on
different tracks. For some kids it is their ultimate dream to play some pro sport.
They never miss a practice, they work at home, they read books, heck some
sleep with their baseball glove or a football or whatever. It's their dream.
They see it on TV or wherever and they WANT it for themselves. Some parents work
hard to help their child achieve whatever dreams they have. Buying expensive
equipment (did you know some baseball bats are $500.00?), driving them to and
from practice, making arrangements to be at games. Whatever they can think
of to support their son or daughter.
Other parents have children that just want to play a sport. Just for the fun
of it, just to be a part of a team and around other children. They have no
intense desire to make it a life long goal of achievement, they know this,
their parents know this. They play on a different level. Practice really isn't
that important to them, because the "game" (as in general not as in one
particular day of seven innings or whatever), it's just a PART of what makes them
happy and who they are.
So two children and two (or four or six) parents come to the same game with
the same coaches with completely different agendas.
Personally if a child misses practice, they sit, no matter who. Even the
"star" would sit the first half or first innings. As a coach, you recognize that
everyone has other "stuff" to do, some make practice a priority and some
don't. The one's who do, obviously want to play. Now if there is a funeral or
wedding or something other than then child just choosing to not come, that's
different.
I still believe that every child who commits to being on a team should be
treated as a team member and be given playing time. Should every child get the
exact same number of innings/quarters? I firmly believe that in the younger
ages, maybe nine and younger that should be true. Most often around here that's
how it goes. Everyone plays the same number of innings/quarters, for the
most part. If you miss practice however, that means you sit, regardless. The
older teams don't do that fairness, number of innings thing, they do sit you if
you don't practice.
Should they base playing time on ability? Maybe dedication to the team?
Maybe who's dad coaches? Most likely it's going to be based on putting the best
nine or five or twelve on the field to win the game. But in any given game,
in any given play, ANY child should be able to be considered one of the best,
five, nine or twelve on the field/court.
I have always respected the child that comes to me personally and told me
they felt they could do more to help the team out, by being on the field more,
playing more innings and were willing to do whatever it took to get into the
game more. I've never much been affected by the parent who comes to me with the
same concerns.
Maybe have your son approach the coach and tell him he's wants to step up his
play to the next level, to play more and sit less and what could he do to
accomplish that goal?
I hope your son has a great time with basketball AND baseball, my very
favorite sport!
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<< Should I call the coach about the inconsistencies I see or should I let
it
them to be there for your son or anyone else.
Second, I would remember that lots of coaches' kids are star players. Not
necessarily because the coach is unfair but because the parent is a coach as
a way of supporting their kids' interest in that sport.
Third, I would ask my son how he feels about what is going on before I poked
my nose in it. After all, it is about him right? Not about your sense of
fairness.
Fourth, I would volunteer to coach next year.
Julie S.
it
> go? If I should let it go I need to find a way to look at the situationthat
> does now appall me.>>>>First, I would remember that these coaches are volunteers. Nobody is paying
them to be there for your son or anyone else.
Second, I would remember that lots of coaches' kids are star players. Not
necessarily because the coach is unfair but because the parent is a coach as
a way of supporting their kids' interest in that sport.
Third, I would ask my son how he feels about what is going on before I poked
my nose in it. After all, it is about him right? Not about your sense of
fairness.
Fourth, I would volunteer to coach next year.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <BonKnit@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 10:00 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] A cry for perspective....
> I am not sure this would fall under any unschooling topic but I
hope a
> few of you can offer me a few options on how I might handle this.
>
> I am angry, I was hoping that it would pass but it is not. My 12yro plays
> basketball on our church team, he has played different sports with the
same kids
> (and coaches) for the last several years. He likes to participate and has
> always been very happy with being a team player. I have let a number of
issues
> pass because he has not had a problem I have. As in most organizations
there are
> a few fathers that always coach, they have the time and the interest and
from
> observation I can see how their kids perform is very important to them.
The
> mothers are exactly the same, they know every sport intimately and can get
quite
> riled though they keep it within acceptable (so they don't get thrown out
> acceptable) limits.
>
> Except for volleyball which has a mother coaching who is wonderful and
fair
> my son sits out a good bit. He is a good player but I guess he is not a
"star"
> player. (I also think how the coach plays a player and the message he
sends
> affects a persons playing, we live up or down to others expectations but
that is
> another post)
>
> Both coaches sons are "star" players, there are a number of very good
players
> on the team. My son missed both practices last week and was therefore
> relegated to playing just a few minutes of one quarter. It was never put
into words
> but a comment made at team picture day Sunday confirmed what we already
> thought, sitting out longer than usual was a punitive measure. What really
hurt was
> that one of our older boys came and also one of my son's friends.
>
> This is getting wordy, please bear with me.
>
> I am having a real problem with all of this because even if my son went to
> both practices he only ever gets to play a quarter at most. I might even
be able
> to swallow that had I not witnessed this. The assistant Coaches son has a
> hard time staying calm, when he is getting stressed because they are
behind or he
> has made a mistake he does something so that he can act like he is injured
so
> he can go sit down and cry, when he is finished crying he wants right back
in
> the game. I watched a few weeks ago this whole scenario and watched him
get
> back up and say something to his father who right away reached over (they
were
> having a time out) and tap my son on the shoulder, my son's face dropped,
he
> too knew what was going on. This happend every time.
>
> I watched it happen again this week with a different kid since my son was
> benched anyhow.
>
> My DH thinks I should let it go, I am gagging on it. I do not want to call
> and scream at them, I want to call and explain how this all looks from
another
> POV. My son has signed up to play baseball with pretty much the same
people
> and I am trying to find a way to get through this.
>
>> Help!
> Laura
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<<They may get mad
yelled at kids, at refs, whoever. I couldn't hardly stand it but Zach
seemed unfazed.
I asked Zach about it, telling him that I was troubled but wanted to get his
feel on it. Zach said it didn't bother him, he felt the kids deserved to
get yelled at (things like not coming to practice, not coming on time,
missing easy plays and then goofing off during practice), that he wasn't
getting yelled at....no problem.
So I sucked it up and let him play.
Julie S.
> at the infairness sometimes but I can see I am the one who has the biggerSame at our house. Zach (10) had a yelling coach last year in baseball. He
> issues, LOL>>>>>
yelled at kids, at refs, whoever. I couldn't hardly stand it but Zach
seemed unfazed.
I asked Zach about it, telling him that I was troubled but wanted to get his
feel on it. Zach said it didn't bother him, he felt the kids deserved to
get yelled at (things like not coming to practice, not coming on time,
missing easy plays and then goofing off during practice), that he wasn't
getting yelled at....no problem.
So I sucked it up and let him play.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <BonKnit@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] A cry for perspective....
> In a message dated 2/3/2004 12:52:29 PM Central Standard Time,
> WendyWCarr@... writes:
>
>
> > This is one reason I have never put my son in sports! This stuff happens
> > all the time, and I just don't want to deal with it. I hope you figure
this
> > out, and soon! Good luck!
> >
>
> Actually I do feel better after being able to talk about it. If it were my
> decision I would not have my kids play sports but they like it. They may
get mad
> at the infairness sometimes but I can see I am the one who has the bigger
> issues, LOL
> Laura
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/2004 4:06:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
Same at our house. Zach (10) had a yelling coach last year in baseball. He
yelled at kids, at refs, whoever. I couldn't hardly stand it but Zach
seemed unfazed.
I asked Zach about it, telling him that I was troubled but wanted to get his
feel on it. Zach said it didn't bother him, he felt the kids deserved to
get yelled at (things like not coming to practice, not coming on time,
missing easy plays and then goofing off during practice), that he wasn't
getting yelled at....no problem.<<<<<
I refused to suck it up. ALL the parents were sitting on the sidelines
(baseball) and bitching all through the games and practices about what a jerk he was
and what an awful coach. Of course they said nothing.
First I went through all the "chains of command": I talked (sweetly! I *AM*
Southern, ya' know!) to the coach. Then to the next guy up, the next, and the
next. Finally I was at the top of the pile, and still nothing was being
done---although each said he would talk to the coach and work it out. Eventually I
started yelling on the sidelines.
The final straw came when he scheduled an extra "optional" practice on a
Saturday afternoon. June in Columbia! Guys, it's HOT! They practiced from
12:00-3:00 with ONE water break----and then had a game at 4:00. (This jerk sat in the
shade, yelling the whole time---showing NO respect to these kids). THEN he got
mad when they weren't hustling at the game from 4:00 to 6:00.
The jerk actually told my husband that Ben needed to get control over ME! <g>
Well, that didn't go over too well. Ben told him that if he had a problem
with me, that HE needed to deal with me himself, if he's man enough. <g>
Cameron liked baseball until this coach. Cameron (and all the other boys on
the team) were glad that I was standing up for them because they had no other
options. THEY couldn't; their parents wouldn't. Sad. I actually got cheers from
the kids! <g>
At one of his stupid practices, Cameron shattered his index finger----broke
it into four-five pieces. Three pins to repair it. He was out the second half
of the season.
This idiot actually had the gall to call me the next year to try to get me to
have Cameron play for him again, "I'll let bygones be bygones..." crap. I
flat out told him he was a horrible coach, a horrible person, and that he should
never be allowed near any children EVER. I followed it up with a letter to the
Park & Recs about how horrible he was and about how I wasn't listened to all
season.
Which leads me to now! <g> Duncan wants to play baseball this spring! UGH!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jnjstau@... writes:
Same at our house. Zach (10) had a yelling coach last year in baseball. He
yelled at kids, at refs, whoever. I couldn't hardly stand it but Zach
seemed unfazed.
I asked Zach about it, telling him that I was troubled but wanted to get his
feel on it. Zach said it didn't bother him, he felt the kids deserved to
get yelled at (things like not coming to practice, not coming on time,
missing easy plays and then goofing off during practice), that he wasn't
getting yelled at....no problem.<<<<<
I refused to suck it up. ALL the parents were sitting on the sidelines
(baseball) and bitching all through the games and practices about what a jerk he was
and what an awful coach. Of course they said nothing.
First I went through all the "chains of command": I talked (sweetly! I *AM*
Southern, ya' know!) to the coach. Then to the next guy up, the next, and the
next. Finally I was at the top of the pile, and still nothing was being
done---although each said he would talk to the coach and work it out. Eventually I
started yelling on the sidelines.
The final straw came when he scheduled an extra "optional" practice on a
Saturday afternoon. June in Columbia! Guys, it's HOT! They practiced from
12:00-3:00 with ONE water break----and then had a game at 4:00. (This jerk sat in the
shade, yelling the whole time---showing NO respect to these kids). THEN he got
mad when they weren't hustling at the game from 4:00 to 6:00.
The jerk actually told my husband that Ben needed to get control over ME! <g>
Well, that didn't go over too well. Ben told him that if he had a problem
with me, that HE needed to deal with me himself, if he's man enough. <g>
Cameron liked baseball until this coach. Cameron (and all the other boys on
the team) were glad that I was standing up for them because they had no other
options. THEY couldn't; their parents wouldn't. Sad. I actually got cheers from
the kids! <g>
At one of his stupid practices, Cameron shattered his index finger----broke
it into four-five pieces. Three pins to repair it. He was out the second half
of the season.
This idiot actually had the gall to call me the next year to try to get me to
have Cameron play for him again, "I'll let bygones be bygones..." crap. I
flat out told him he was a horrible coach, a horrible person, and that he should
never be allowed near any children EVER. I followed it up with a letter to the
Park & Recs about how horrible he was and about how I wasn't listened to all
season.
Which leads me to now! <g> Duncan wants to play baseball this spring! UGH!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
One good sport to try is swimming...although I'm sure that can have some of the same problems, depending on the coach.
We have found that even if our kids aren't swimming live heats, they can improve their own times, which is a success in and of itself. Its both an individual sport and a team sport.
I had my daughter on a soccer team. It was AWFUL. The coach was very "win" oriented and was rude to the kids. Some of the parents were worse than the coach. I hated it. My daughter hated it, and we quit.
We are trying cheerleading next. I'm hoping that this cheering squad is what its portrayed to be: inclusive and non-competitive. They do actually compete in the fall, but not in the spring. Spring is mostly for learning. So, I hope it works out.
Kristen
Kristen
We have found that even if our kids aren't swimming live heats, they can improve their own times, which is a success in and of itself. Its both an individual sport and a team sport.
I had my daughter on a soccer team. It was AWFUL. The coach was very "win" oriented and was rude to the kids. Some of the parents were worse than the coach. I hated it. My daughter hated it, and we quit.
We are trying cheerleading next. I'm hoping that this cheering squad is what its portrayed to be: inclusive and non-competitive. They do actually compete in the fall, but not in the spring. Spring is mostly for learning. So, I hope it works out.
Kristen
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Wendy Carr
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] A cry for perspective....
This is one reason I have never put my son in sports! This stuff happens all the time, and I just don't want to deal with it. I hope you figure this out, and soon! Good luck!
----- Original Message -----
From: BonKnit@...<mailto:BonKnit@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 11:00 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] A cry for perspective....
I am not sure this would fall under any unschooling topic but I hope a
few of you can offer me a few options on how I might handle this.
I am angry, I was hoping that it would pass but it is not. My 12yro plays
basketball on our church team, he has played different sports with the same kids
(and coaches) for the last several years. He likes to participate and has
always been very happy with being a team player. I have let a number of issues
pass because he has not had a problem I have. As in most organizations there are
a few fathers that always coach, they have the time and the interest and from
observation I can see how their kids perform is very important to them. The
mothers are exactly the same, they know every sport intimately and can get quite
riled though they keep it within acceptable (so they don't get thrown out
acceptable) limits.
Except for volleyball which has a mother coaching who is wonderful and fair
my son sits out a good bit. He is a good player but I guess he is not a "star"
player. (I also think how the coach plays a player and the message he sends
affects a persons playing, we live up or down to others expectations but that is
another post)
Both coaches sons are "star" players, there are a number of very good players
on the team. My son missed both practices last week and was therefore
relegated to playing just a few minutes of one quarter. It was never put into words
but a comment made at team picture day Sunday confirmed what we already
thought, sitting out longer than usual was a punitive measure. What really hurt was
that one of our older boys came and also one of my son's friends.
This is getting wordy, please bear with me.
I am having a real problem with all of this because even if my son went to
both practices he only ever gets to play a quarter at most. I might even be able
to swallow that had I not witnessed this. The assistant Coaches son has a
hard time staying calm, when he is getting stressed because they are behind or he
has made a mistake he does something so that he can act like he is injured so
he can go sit down and cry, when he is finished crying he wants right back in
the game. I watched a few weeks ago this whole scenario and watched him get
back up and say something to his father who right away reached over (they were
having a time out) and tap my son on the shoulder, my son's face dropped, he
too knew what was going on. This happend every time.
I watched it happen again this week with a different kid since my son was
benched anyhow.
My DH thinks I should let it go, I am gagging on it. I do not want to call
and scream at them, I want to call and explain how this all looks from another
POV. My son has signed up to play baseball with pretty much the same people
and I am trying to find a way to get through this.
Should I call the coach about the inconsistencies I see or should I let it
go? If I should let it go I need to find a way to look at the situation that
does now appall me.
Help!
Laura
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Have a Nice Day!
I actually got cheers from
the kids! <g>
This happened to me too one day when all the kids were standing in a long long line to get refreshments at the pool. It was an "adult only" swim break and the concession stand only opened ONE window even though there were 3 girls working in there.
As one little boy bought his treat, he left and didn't take his change. I was right behind him when the girl behind the counter (probably about 14 or 15) said "stupid kid". That was IT. I told her "he is NOT stupid, he is YOUNG", and then went on to why don't they open both windows instead of making these kids wait forever, it is hot after all. I also told them they could not count change to save their lives and that I was going to call the manager, which I did.
All the kids behind me were cheering LOL.
It was worth every single second of looking like a bitch/mama. LOL
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the kids! <g>
This happened to me too one day when all the kids were standing in a long long line to get refreshments at the pool. It was an "adult only" swim break and the concession stand only opened ONE window even though there were 3 girls working in there.
As one little boy bought his treat, he left and didn't take his change. I was right behind him when the girl behind the counter (probably about 14 or 15) said "stupid kid". That was IT. I told her "he is NOT stupid, he is YOUNG", and then went on to why don't they open both windows instead of making these kids wait forever, it is hot after all. I also told them they could not count change to save their lives and that I was going to call the manager, which I did.
All the kids behind me were cheering LOL.
It was worth every single second of looking like a bitch/mama. LOL
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/2004 3:01:51 PM Central Standard Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
<Second, I would remember that lots of coaches' kids are star players. Not
necessarily because the coach is unfair but because the parent is a coach as
a way of supporting their kids' interest in that sport.>
I also understand this, however, in taking the position he agreed to coach
all of the kids on the team. We also try to do our part whenever we can, we paid
for the team party last year and we help out when we are needed. We attend
all of the games also while a good many of the parents don't.
<Third, I would ask my son how he feels about what is going on before I poked
my nose in it. After all, it is about him right? Not about your sense of
fairness.>
Which is exactly why I have not done anything up to this point. I have been
thinking on it a long time. I don't usually act rashly, this is no exception.
What I was asking for in part was a way to look at this differently in order to
find a way to live with it so that I can go on supporting my son. I also
vented a bit and feel better for having done so, thanks for letting me.
<Fourth, I would volunteer to coach next year.>
LOL, that would be hilarious! I assure you they would not have me, I am
basketball impaired, it would be an interesting proposition though.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jnjstau@... writes:
> First, I would remember that these coaches are volunteers. Nobody isI am fully aware of that, I also fill volunteer positions in life.
> paying
> them to be there for your son or anyone else.
>
<Second, I would remember that lots of coaches' kids are star players. Not
necessarily because the coach is unfair but because the parent is a coach as
a way of supporting their kids' interest in that sport.>
I also understand this, however, in taking the position he agreed to coach
all of the kids on the team. We also try to do our part whenever we can, we paid
for the team party last year and we help out when we are needed. We attend
all of the games also while a good many of the parents don't.
<Third, I would ask my son how he feels about what is going on before I poked
my nose in it. After all, it is about him right? Not about your sense of
fairness.>
Which is exactly why I have not done anything up to this point. I have been
thinking on it a long time. I don't usually act rashly, this is no exception.
What I was asking for in part was a way to look at this differently in order to
find a way to live with it so that I can go on supporting my son. I also
vented a bit and feel better for having done so, thanks for letting me.
<Fourth, I would volunteer to coach next year.>
LOL, that would be hilarious! I assure you they would not have me, I am
basketball impaired, it would be an interesting proposition though.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
liza sabater
On Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 01:33 PM, BonKnit@... wrote:
Gigantic Skate Park Tour and reading about his life. Talk about an
amazingly gifted guy who can be competitive and generous all at the
same time. He's the "king" but the guys of extreme sports are all a
very different kind of athlete. They'll compete against each other to
later get together as teams. They'll cheer each other even after being
beaten out of a medal. It's really just lovely to see the dynamics
between these guys. Another good video is the 2000 X Games (it has the
event that propelled Tony Hawk into god-like status).
l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> One thing I have truly enjoyed is watching one boy who is what I wouldThat's why I've enjoyed SO MUCH watching the videos of Tony Hawk's
> call
> just gifted in this game, I would bet he is good at other sports as
> well. What
> I so much enjoyed in this kid is that he was not a starliner, he
> played well,
> with grace and natural ability that can't be faked. He was also one of
> the
> most generous kids on the team, while the coaches son rarely passed
> the ball to
> my son this kid did not have the "team" mindset, he had not played
> with this
> particular group of boys before so he didn't have the "game plan" so
> to speak
> in his mind, in other words he did not know my son's "place" on the
> team and
> consistantly passed my son the ball, which allowed my son in one game
> to make an
> excellent play, a lay-up which he would have never been allowed to try
> normally. It was one of those rare moments.
>
Gigantic Skate Park Tour and reading about his life. Talk about an
amazingly gifted guy who can be competitive and generous all at the
same time. He's the "king" but the guys of extreme sports are all a
very different kind of athlete. They'll compete against each other to
later get together as teams. They'll cheer each other even after being
beaten out of a medal. It's really just lovely to see the dynamics
between these guys. Another good video is the 2000 X Games (it has the
event that propelled Tony Hawk into god-like status).
l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/2004 8:30:09 PM Central Standard Time,
litlrooh@... writes:
and just joined a brand new league set up for hser's. I don't necessarily look
for hser only activities but this is nice as it meets during the day.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
litlrooh@... writes:
> One good sport to try is swimming...although I'm sure that can have some ofSwimming is good as is snowboarding or skiing. My 12yro also likes bowling
> the same problems, depending on the coach.
and just joined a brand new league set up for hser's. I don't necessarily look
for hser only activities but this is nice as it meets during the day.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Lewis
***When he gets angry at me and wants to throw something at me to "prove"
I've been a neglectful mother in some way, he will still say, remember
those two
times you didn't come to my games?***
This seems strange.
I realize you haven't always been unschoolers but this strikes me as
manipulative and unhealthy.
I have a friend whose really terrible childhood has affected every part
of her life including, sadly, her parenting. In her mind her children's
love for her is directly related to their performance. If one of them
does poorly in school, gets in trouble, doesn't want to do the dishes
when she asks, she feels they don't love her. She's used this
manipulation on them until they've learned to use it on her.
It's a strange and unhealthy thing.
Little kids like their parents around, but big kids who love sports want
to play whether their parents can come or not. Why wouldn't a kid
understand if a parent couldn't be there once or twice? Punishment and
guilt and manipulation are learned. This post disturbs me.
***He'll remind me the game I sat in the car and
watched in the freezing rain the day I was released from the hospital
after giving
birth counts as NOT being at the game because he couldn't see or hear me,
although I could see him play. ***
Why would he do this to you? What kind of relationship allows for
unhealthy grudge holding and guilty manipulation.
***The other game I missed, I was in the middle of giving birth, no
chance I
could be there. ***
And he guilts you about it?
***I'm sorry it hurts him so much to remember me not being there.***
I'm sorry I'm having a hard time believing this whole thing. He was
totally unable to understand two day's you missed in his entire career in
kid sports?
I went to Dylan's martial arts classes until he was comfortable there,
and because I liked to be there. By the time he was nine he wanted to be
there and was so busy and involved there he would have been fine without
me. There is no insecurity in him, no belief that my absence from his
class would in any way be related to how much I love him. He'd think me
a more than a little strange if I hated to sit there but did it anyway
and made sure I told him it was because I loved him. That would be
manipulative and warped and he understands that right now and would have
four years ago, too.
Deb L
"When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to
everything else in the universe."
~John Muir~
I've been a neglectful mother in some way, he will still say, remember
those two
times you didn't come to my games?***
This seems strange.
I realize you haven't always been unschoolers but this strikes me as
manipulative and unhealthy.
I have a friend whose really terrible childhood has affected every part
of her life including, sadly, her parenting. In her mind her children's
love for her is directly related to their performance. If one of them
does poorly in school, gets in trouble, doesn't want to do the dishes
when she asks, she feels they don't love her. She's used this
manipulation on them until they've learned to use it on her.
It's a strange and unhealthy thing.
Little kids like their parents around, but big kids who love sports want
to play whether their parents can come or not. Why wouldn't a kid
understand if a parent couldn't be there once or twice? Punishment and
guilt and manipulation are learned. This post disturbs me.
***He'll remind me the game I sat in the car and
watched in the freezing rain the day I was released from the hospital
after giving
birth counts as NOT being at the game because he couldn't see or hear me,
although I could see him play. ***
Why would he do this to you? What kind of relationship allows for
unhealthy grudge holding and guilty manipulation.
***The other game I missed, I was in the middle of giving birth, no
chance I
could be there. ***
And he guilts you about it?
***I'm sorry it hurts him so much to remember me not being there.***
I'm sorry I'm having a hard time believing this whole thing. He was
totally unable to understand two day's you missed in his entire career in
kid sports?
I went to Dylan's martial arts classes until he was comfortable there,
and because I liked to be there. By the time he was nine he wanted to be
there and was so busy and involved there he would have been fine without
me. There is no insecurity in him, no belief that my absence from his
class would in any way be related to how much I love him. He'd think me
a more than a little strange if I hated to sit there but did it anyway
and made sure I told him it was because I loved him. That would be
manipulative and warped and he understands that right now and would have
four years ago, too.
Deb L
"When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to
everything else in the universe."
~John Muir~
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/04 7:41:07 PM, rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
<< I'd ask my child if it was important to them that I be at their
games. Most times it is very important to them. >>
Yes, but if the mom is so upset she can't be helpful, useful and supportive,
it might be better for her not to go.
If a child wants a mom to do something and it's not something the mother can
in good conscience do or support, the kid might be better off with the dad
there than the mom.
<<It's the times that I wasn't there
that stick out most in his mind.
<<I'm sorry it hurts him so much to remember me not being there. >>
This sounds totally unreasonable to me. He should get over it.
<<Oh, and many times it IS hard to watch as a mother, but I do it because I
love him and it's important to him.>>
It seems perhaps you're saying that a mother who doesn't go to every game, or
at least sit in the car the day after giving birth, doesn't love her children
and doesn't care what's important to thim. I don't think that's at all true.
<< I'm sorry for those children the coach has less faith in. >>
Faith is based on something real, like ability and trust. It doesn't make
sense to expect a coach to have equal faith in every child.
Sandra
<< I'd ask my child if it was important to them that I be at their
games. Most times it is very important to them. >>
Yes, but if the mom is so upset she can't be helpful, useful and supportive,
it might be better for her not to go.
If a child wants a mom to do something and it's not something the mother can
in good conscience do or support, the kid might be better off with the dad
there than the mom.
<<It's the times that I wasn't there
that stick out most in his mind.
<<I'm sorry it hurts him so much to remember me not being there. >>
This sounds totally unreasonable to me. He should get over it.
<<Oh, and many times it IS hard to watch as a mother, but I do it because I
love him and it's important to him.>>
It seems perhaps you're saying that a mother who doesn't go to every game, or
at least sit in the car the day after giving birth, doesn't love her children
and doesn't care what's important to thim. I don't think that's at all true.
<< I'm sorry for those children the coach has less faith in. >>
Faith is based on something real, like ability and trust. It doesn't make
sense to expect a coach to have equal faith in every child.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/04 8:14:38 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:
<< If one of them
does poorly in school, gets in trouble, doesn't want to do the dishes
when she asks, she feels they don't love her. She's used this
manipulation on them until they've learned to use it on her.
<<It's a strange and unhealthy thing. >>
The other day at Target Holly and I were hanging out, and a boy about six or
seven said to his mother, of his younger sister: "If you love me, you'll make
her stay away from me."
We just looked at each other and I wrote it down on the envelope I keep my
debit card in.
He said it in a voice that couldn't have been his own. I can only assume his
mother must have said things like that to him many times and he was just
speaking the language of love as he had learned it.
Sandra
<< If one of them
does poorly in school, gets in trouble, doesn't want to do the dishes
when she asks, she feels they don't love her. She's used this
manipulation on them until they've learned to use it on her.
<<It's a strange and unhealthy thing. >>
The other day at Target Holly and I were hanging out, and a boy about six or
seven said to his mother, of his younger sister: "If you love me, you'll make
her stay away from me."
We just looked at each other and I wrote it down on the envelope I keep my
debit card in.
He said it in a voice that couldn't have been his own. I can only assume his
mother must have said things like that to him many times and he was just
speaking the language of love as he had learned it.
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 2/3/04 11:31 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
like rain. We can be angry that it's raining or we can just accept that
there's nothing we can do about it and enjoy what we can.
You could speak to someone who is bothering you -- as you could speak to the
sky. ;-) But you can't control them. If they change it's up to them. Their
changing is out of our control.
If someone doesn't realize they're doing something that's hurtful, giving
them the information could be helpful to them. If they're doing something
deliberately or they don't see a problem (which is probably the case), they
have no reason to change.
We can be a catalyst of change (by offering information) but we can't
control the change (by somehow making people behave the way we want them
to.)
Help your son see what choices he does have rather than being upset with
things that are beyond his control. He can choose not to play volleyball. He
could find some other team. He could put up with the "rain" and enjoy
himself despite the weather.
Joyce
> "Happy" is the main one. If your so is happy, he will still go. If he's notYes. Sometimes we need to see aspects of something we're participating in as
> happy, don't press him to go.
>
> You can't change church. You can't change teams.
like rain. We can be angry that it's raining or we can just accept that
there's nothing we can do about it and enjoy what we can.
You could speak to someone who is bothering you -- as you could speak to the
sky. ;-) But you can't control them. If they change it's up to them. Their
changing is out of our control.
If someone doesn't realize they're doing something that's hurtful, giving
them the information could be helpful to them. If they're doing something
deliberately or they don't see a problem (which is probably the case), they
have no reason to change.
We can be a catalyst of change (by offering information) but we can't
control the change (by somehow making people behave the way we want them
to.)
Help your son see what choices he does have rather than being upset with
things that are beyond his control. He can choose not to play volleyball. He
could find some other team. He could put up with the "rain" and enjoy
himself despite the weather.
Joyce
Fetteroll
on 2/3/04 2:40 PM, rubyprincesstsg@... at rubyprincesstsg@... wrote:
serving him.
I think I would tell him that my being at his games was a gift I was gladly
giving to him because it brought enjoyment to both of us. The gift of my
presence was *not* something he was entitled to demand from me.
If he didn't apprecitate the 2000 gifts I'd given and resented the 2 times
he hadn't gotten a gift, he needed to do some serious thinking. And since I
now knew how he saw my gifts, I would be getting less enjoyment out of
giving them and he'd be getting them less frequently.
Joyce
> My 19 year old has played on teams since he was three, every year, everyThat is *not* healthy. He has somehow picked up that he's entitled to you
> season. When he gets angry at me and wants to throw something at me to
> "prove" I've been a neglectful mother in some way, he will still say, remember
> those two times you didn't come to my games? I'll remind him it was only one
> game I've missed in sixteen years. He'll remind me the game I sat in the car
> and watched in the freezing rain the day I was released from the hospital
> after giving birth counts as NOT being at the game because he couldn't see or
> hear me, although I could see him play.
serving him.
I think I would tell him that my being at his games was a gift I was gladly
giving to him because it brought enjoyment to both of us. The gift of my
presence was *not* something he was entitled to demand from me.
If he didn't apprecitate the 2000 gifts I'd given and resented the 2 times
he hadn't gotten a gift, he needed to do some serious thinking. And since I
now knew how he saw my gifts, I would be getting less enjoyment out of
giving them and he'd be getting them less frequently.
Joyce
Danielle Conger
He said it in a voice that couldn't have been his own. I can only assume his
mother must have said things like that to him many times and he was just
speaking the language of love as he had learned it.
Sandra
============================================================================
Or the father regularly uses this with the mother. Or the child has heard this at school or in friends' houses and has learned what a great tool it can be to get his own way. Schools and daycares are filled with "If you don't do x, then I won't be your friend anymore" or "If you do x, I'll be your best friend." Not a big leap to "If you love me, then you'll do x."
Definitely a learned behavior, but the mother's not the only plausible source. Definitely disturbing no matter what the source.
--danielle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mother must have said things like that to him many times and he was just
speaking the language of love as he had learned it.
Sandra
============================================================================
Or the father regularly uses this with the mother. Or the child has heard this at school or in friends' houses and has learned what a great tool it can be to get his own way. Schools and daycares are filled with "If you don't do x, then I won't be your friend anymore" or "If you do x, I'll be your best friend." Not a big leap to "If you love me, then you'll do x."
Definitely a learned behavior, but the mother's not the only plausible source. Definitely disturbing no matter what the source.
--danielle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/4/2004 7:16:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
That is *not* healthy. He has somehow picked up that he's entitled to you
serving him.
You are right, it's not healthy I am sure. I suppose maybe he does feel it's
something he's entitled to, my presence at things that are important to him.
I've always done it with ease and with great pleasure. I did miss basketball
games once when I was in the hospital but he doesn't care at all about those
apparently. Just the baseball games. Guess they are more important to him.
I think I know he will say the things about the two games in anger because he
knows that I always take a breath to know that I did pain him by not being
there.
My older daughter and DH always say to me, well if that is the WORST thing he
can say about you when he's angry, then you should just consider that you've
been a wonderful mother to him!
I have rearranged every step of my life for motherhood. Something I really
never thought I wanted until I had it. I didn't want to miss a second of it,
especially since I know it can be taken from you in a blink of an eye.
A doctor did once tell me when this same son was seven months old that it
wasn't "healthy" for him to be so attached to me. What if I did, the child would
go crazy with grief. I think he'd have been more resilient than that if he
had to be, but I'm glad I could be there with him every single second.
Some of my greatest joys in life are seeing that very same young man stand on
the pitchers mound, roll that baseball around in his hand, I see the finger
placement, I see the grip, I see his mind counting the stitches, I see him
bring his glove to his chest, I see him lift his leg, I see him bend his back and
point his toe towards the heavens and I hear the ball whiz right by the
batter who wonders where it came from, I see the joy in my son's face. I love that
boy.
He's right, I wish I hadn't missed ANY of his games. Who wants to miss a
second of seeing their child's dream happen and come to life? But life happens,
and sometimes you miss a bit or two or even more and then one morning you
bring your child juice into his room and there is a grown man laying in his bed
and you wonder how did THIS happen?
Unschooling is great, it affords you almost ALL those moments in between.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
That is *not* healthy. He has somehow picked up that he's entitled to you
serving him.
You are right, it's not healthy I am sure. I suppose maybe he does feel it's
something he's entitled to, my presence at things that are important to him.
I've always done it with ease and with great pleasure. I did miss basketball
games once when I was in the hospital but he doesn't care at all about those
apparently. Just the baseball games. Guess they are more important to him.
I think I know he will say the things about the two games in anger because he
knows that I always take a breath to know that I did pain him by not being
there.
My older daughter and DH always say to me, well if that is the WORST thing he
can say about you when he's angry, then you should just consider that you've
been a wonderful mother to him!
I have rearranged every step of my life for motherhood. Something I really
never thought I wanted until I had it. I didn't want to miss a second of it,
especially since I know it can be taken from you in a blink of an eye.
A doctor did once tell me when this same son was seven months old that it
wasn't "healthy" for him to be so attached to me. What if I did, the child would
go crazy with grief. I think he'd have been more resilient than that if he
had to be, but I'm glad I could be there with him every single second.
Some of my greatest joys in life are seeing that very same young man stand on
the pitchers mound, roll that baseball around in his hand, I see the finger
placement, I see the grip, I see his mind counting the stitches, I see him
bring his glove to his chest, I see him lift his leg, I see him bend his back and
point his toe towards the heavens and I hear the ball whiz right by the
batter who wonders where it came from, I see the joy in my son's face. I love that
boy.
He's right, I wish I hadn't missed ANY of his games. Who wants to miss a
second of seeing their child's dream happen and come to life? But life happens,
and sometimes you miss a bit or two or even more and then one morning you
bring your child juice into his room and there is a grown man laying in his bed
and you wonder how did THIS happen?
Unschooling is great, it affords you almost ALL those moments in between.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/2004 11:33:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
It seems perhaps you're saying that a mother who doesn't go to every game, or
at least sit in the car the day after giving birth, doesn't love her children
and doesn't care what's important to thim. I don't think that's at all true
That's not true at all. There are many reasons parents can't be at games.
I've missed games. Sometimes it can't be helped. I also know some children
who REALLY don't want their parents at their games. It's THEIR time. I know
some children who cry because they mom or dad SAID they would be there and
didn't show up.
For some children sports are just another part of many things they do, it's
not that important, or at least not one of the top important things in their
lives. To some children it is very important and they want to share it with
their parents.
I think a parent is the best judge of their own child. I certainly do not
believe that if a parent misses a child's baseball or football game or whatever
event that the parent doesn't love their children or care what's important to
them. The way my son uses that as a weapon when he's angry would seem to
indicate that he feels I let him down or missed out on something really important
in his childhood those two days. Those two days stick out in his mind vividly.
I think I will ask him today what happened on those days besides me not
"seeing" him play. Even though I got play by plays at the time from him. Maybe
there is more he'd like to tell me. He does seemed pained by this and he is 19,
there must be something more than me just missing the game.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
It seems perhaps you're saying that a mother who doesn't go to every game, or
at least sit in the car the day after giving birth, doesn't love her children
and doesn't care what's important to thim. I don't think that's at all true
That's not true at all. There are many reasons parents can't be at games.
I've missed games. Sometimes it can't be helped. I also know some children
who REALLY don't want their parents at their games. It's THEIR time. I know
some children who cry because they mom or dad SAID they would be there and
didn't show up.
For some children sports are just another part of many things they do, it's
not that important, or at least not one of the top important things in their
lives. To some children it is very important and they want to share it with
their parents.
I think a parent is the best judge of their own child. I certainly do not
believe that if a parent misses a child's baseball or football game or whatever
event that the parent doesn't love their children or care what's important to
them. The way my son uses that as a weapon when he's angry would seem to
indicate that he feels I let him down or missed out on something really important
in his childhood those two days. Those two days stick out in his mind vividly.
I think I will ask him today what happened on those days besides me not
"seeing" him play. Even though I got play by plays at the time from him. Maybe
there is more he'd like to tell me. He does seemed pained by this and he is 19,
there must be something more than me just missing the game.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/2004 10:14:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:
He'd think me
a more than a little strange if I hated to sit there but did it anyway
and made sure I told him it was because I loved him. That would be
manipulative and warped and he understands that right now and would have
four years ago, too.
First, I didn't HATE to be there. I LOVE watching my son doing something he
absolutely loves. He knows this. I didn't sit at practices which I'm
guessing would be like the Martial Art classes. I'm sure you wouldn't miss one of
his meets(?) if you could help it, if it was important to your son. Even if you
did, he might not be the one that remembers you not being there years later.
Maybe because to my son, baseball is his passion. He's been pretty much one
tracked about that since, I guess before he was three.
My other children have a variety of things they do. John has played
basketball but he never really cared much if I was there or not, it just wasn't
important.
I don't think in his mind it was about where I was or why, to him I just wasn'
t there. It isn't about manipulation at all. He's not trying to manipulate
anything. In the heat of anger he's thinking of something to say to hurt me
or let me know he's really angry. He used to RAGE when he was little. He
doesn't do that so much anymore, if at all.
Some children just scream out "I HATE YOU", to their parent. I know I wanted
to say it to my parents when I was young. Some say other things when they
are angry, some say nothing and sulk.
I'm guessing that if he tried really hard he could come up with lots of
things other than missing baseball games that have hurt him. I think to him it's a
symbol of sorts to say this thing to me. I know he's needing more of my
attention and that I need to stop and really hear him. Sometimes when are children
are nearly grown (he's 19) and fairly independent and yet he still needs to
feel connected at a basic level, sometimes more than others. The basics of
growing up and pulling away and then learning to come back. He hasn't had that
"going away" part yet. He still lives at home and goes to Community College.
Saying I missed two baseball games is really about a lot more than just
baseball games. If we were having just a regular conversation he would find it
just as irrational as most everyone here does. Most times these days it's about
I'm really angry and I think I just need a hug and a good cry, a reconnection
of sorts. Something 19 year old boys sometimes have a hard time expressing.
I do appreciate all the comments I've gotten from everyone. I've thought
about it a lot more than usual and while I KNOW it was never really about the
missed games, today I'm going to ask him about those two games and what he
remembers about those days (besides me not being there) and really HEAR about them.
Thanks again,
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ddzimlew@... writes:
He'd think me
a more than a little strange if I hated to sit there but did it anyway
and made sure I told him it was because I loved him. That would be
manipulative and warped and he understands that right now and would have
four years ago, too.
First, I didn't HATE to be there. I LOVE watching my son doing something he
absolutely loves. He knows this. I didn't sit at practices which I'm
guessing would be like the Martial Art classes. I'm sure you wouldn't miss one of
his meets(?) if you could help it, if it was important to your son. Even if you
did, he might not be the one that remembers you not being there years later.
Maybe because to my son, baseball is his passion. He's been pretty much one
tracked about that since, I guess before he was three.
My other children have a variety of things they do. John has played
basketball but he never really cared much if I was there or not, it just wasn't
important.
I don't think in his mind it was about where I was or why, to him I just wasn'
t there. It isn't about manipulation at all. He's not trying to manipulate
anything. In the heat of anger he's thinking of something to say to hurt me
or let me know he's really angry. He used to RAGE when he was little. He
doesn't do that so much anymore, if at all.
Some children just scream out "I HATE YOU", to their parent. I know I wanted
to say it to my parents when I was young. Some say other things when they
are angry, some say nothing and sulk.
I'm guessing that if he tried really hard he could come up with lots of
things other than missing baseball games that have hurt him. I think to him it's a
symbol of sorts to say this thing to me. I know he's needing more of my
attention and that I need to stop and really hear him. Sometimes when are children
are nearly grown (he's 19) and fairly independent and yet he still needs to
feel connected at a basic level, sometimes more than others. The basics of
growing up and pulling away and then learning to come back. He hasn't had that
"going away" part yet. He still lives at home and goes to Community College.
Saying I missed two baseball games is really about a lot more than just
baseball games. If we were having just a regular conversation he would find it
just as irrational as most everyone here does. Most times these days it's about
I'm really angry and I think I just need a hug and a good cry, a reconnection
of sorts. Something 19 year old boys sometimes have a hard time expressing.
I do appreciate all the comments I've gotten from everyone. I've thought
about it a lot more than usual and while I KNOW it was never really about the
missed games, today I'm going to ask him about those two games and what he
remembers about those days (besides me not being there) and really HEAR about them.
Thanks again,
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<<< Being on
One thing our Little League does around here that I like, is that they have
2 seasons. Fall Ball is super fair, little pressure to perform to a
standard, just everybody learn and have fun.....The coaches think of it as
an instructional league.
Spring Ball is Little League in all its glory and gore, everybody plays but
some may only play an inning. You miss practice, you sit. You goof around
, you sit, .....those kinds of things.
Then we also have what we call competitive teams. These are the kids that
LIVE baseball. They travel to different towns, many have batting cages at
their homes, etc..
This way people can choose their track.
Julie S.
> different tracks. For some kids it is their ultimate dream to play somepro sport. >>>>>
One thing our Little League does around here that I like, is that they have
2 seasons. Fall Ball is super fair, little pressure to perform to a
standard, just everybody learn and have fun.....The coaches think of it as
an instructional league.
Spring Ball is Little League in all its glory and gore, everybody plays but
some may only play an inning. You miss practice, you sit. You goof around
, you sit, .....those kinds of things.
Then we also have what we call competitive teams. These are the kids that
LIVE baseball. They travel to different towns, many have batting cages at
their homes, etc..
This way people can choose their track.
Julie S.
pam sorooshian
On Feb 3, 2004, at 8:00 AM, BonKnit@... wrote:
play more on competitive sports teams.
If he played recreational AYSO soccer, they'd always let him play half
the game (and probably 3/4 of the game). That's a rule and the motto of
the organization, "Everyone plays."
But the reason they HAVE that rule and that motto is in response to
other sports organizations where that is pretty much never true.
And sitting out more because he missed that week's practices is also
normal. I think if you think of this from the point of view of the
coach who can't "coach" kids who aren't at practice, that it'll make
sense to you that kids who come to games but not practices shouldn't
get as much play time.
I'm sorry that the coach favors his own kid, but sometimes there are
things you don't know. For example, isn't it nice that he's letting his
kid have a chance to cry in private? I'm always happy to see a coach be
KIND to a kid, not think the kid needs to "get tough." And that he
pulls the weaker players in and out as subs when his kid needs to get
out for a few minutes, to cry or recover his composure, makes perfect
sense to me. That's how sports are - stronger players get more play
time, weaker players are used as subs.
I would pull my kids off sports teams when the coach was too harsh, too
verbally insulting and my child was unhappy. I pulled my oldest
daughter off a soccer team once when the coach had them run around and
around a track before every practice and insulted my daughter
throughout the whole ordeal, yelling, "Sorooshian, get your butt in
gear," and "Sorooshian, they're lapping you AGAIN!!!"
My daughter was about 9 and kind of pudgy and NOT fast at running. She
was a really good soccer player and loved it, and was known as 'big
foot' for her great kicks. This coach was under the impression that
making fun of her and humiliating her because she couldn't keep up when
the team was running would encourage her to run more and lose some
weight and become an even better player. What it did was make her
miserable enough to decide to quit playing soccer altogether.
There are quite a few really bad coaches around, but I'd be careful as
a mom, about making that call FOR my kid. You're talking about actual
coaching decisions and that ought to be left up to the coach, within
the rules of the organization. You didn't say he is being abusive in
any way, just letting stronger players play more and kids who miss
practice play less. That's absolutely normal for sports teams. Kids on
a team usually can totally accept that the strongest players play more
- they are usually very realistic about their own skills relative to
others on the team. In fact, isn't that part of learning from being on
a team - to contribute your part, to learn from those who have more
skills, etc?
If you talk to the coach about this, I think you'd be out of line and
you'll either be ignored or resented. Worst case is that some of that
resentment will be taken out on your child.
ON the other hand, if you son is complaining that he wants to play
more, there is nothing wrong with HIM discussing that with the coach,
saying he is committed to the team and intends to show that by working
hard in practices (has to BE there to work hard) and that he hopes that
by showing that commitment to improving his skills that he'll get more
play time too. A coach would be much more inclined to respond
positively to that kind of approach than to a mom complaining that her
son isn't getting to play enough.
Also, I'd add to this, LISTEN to your husband when it comes to this
stuff. Dads sometimes have a much better grasp on the reality of sports
teams than moms do. (NOT always, I know....)
Maybe to help yourself see things a bit differently, you need to list,
for yourself, the learning he gets from being on the team. It isn't all
about getting to play, I bet.
-pam
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> My DH thinks I should let it go, I am gagging on it. I do not want toIt sounds pretty normal to me. Kids who are the better players get to
> call
> and scream at them, I want to call and explain how this all looks from
> another
> POV. My son has signed up to play baseball with pretty much the same
> people
> and I am trying to find a way to get through this.
>
play more on competitive sports teams.
If he played recreational AYSO soccer, they'd always let him play half
the game (and probably 3/4 of the game). That's a rule and the motto of
the organization, "Everyone plays."
But the reason they HAVE that rule and that motto is in response to
other sports organizations where that is pretty much never true.
And sitting out more because he missed that week's practices is also
normal. I think if you think of this from the point of view of the
coach who can't "coach" kids who aren't at practice, that it'll make
sense to you that kids who come to games but not practices shouldn't
get as much play time.
I'm sorry that the coach favors his own kid, but sometimes there are
things you don't know. For example, isn't it nice that he's letting his
kid have a chance to cry in private? I'm always happy to see a coach be
KIND to a kid, not think the kid needs to "get tough." And that he
pulls the weaker players in and out as subs when his kid needs to get
out for a few minutes, to cry or recover his composure, makes perfect
sense to me. That's how sports are - stronger players get more play
time, weaker players are used as subs.
I would pull my kids off sports teams when the coach was too harsh, too
verbally insulting and my child was unhappy. I pulled my oldest
daughter off a soccer team once when the coach had them run around and
around a track before every practice and insulted my daughter
throughout the whole ordeal, yelling, "Sorooshian, get your butt in
gear," and "Sorooshian, they're lapping you AGAIN!!!"
My daughter was about 9 and kind of pudgy and NOT fast at running. She
was a really good soccer player and loved it, and was known as 'big
foot' for her great kicks. This coach was under the impression that
making fun of her and humiliating her because she couldn't keep up when
the team was running would encourage her to run more and lose some
weight and become an even better player. What it did was make her
miserable enough to decide to quit playing soccer altogether.
There are quite a few really bad coaches around, but I'd be careful as
a mom, about making that call FOR my kid. You're talking about actual
coaching decisions and that ought to be left up to the coach, within
the rules of the organization. You didn't say he is being abusive in
any way, just letting stronger players play more and kids who miss
practice play less. That's absolutely normal for sports teams. Kids on
a team usually can totally accept that the strongest players play more
- they are usually very realistic about their own skills relative to
others on the team. In fact, isn't that part of learning from being on
a team - to contribute your part, to learn from those who have more
skills, etc?
If you talk to the coach about this, I think you'd be out of line and
you'll either be ignored or resented. Worst case is that some of that
resentment will be taken out on your child.
ON the other hand, if you son is complaining that he wants to play
more, there is nothing wrong with HIM discussing that with the coach,
saying he is committed to the team and intends to show that by working
hard in practices (has to BE there to work hard) and that he hopes that
by showing that commitment to improving his skills that he'll get more
play time too. A coach would be much more inclined to respond
positively to that kind of approach than to a mom complaining that her
son isn't getting to play enough.
Also, I'd add to this, LISTEN to your husband when it comes to this
stuff. Dads sometimes have a much better grasp on the reality of sports
teams than moms do. (NOT always, I know....)
Maybe to help yourself see things a bit differently, you need to list,
for yourself, the learning he gets from being on the team. It isn't all
about getting to play, I bet.
-pam
>National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.