Question about people who cant read in America
Wendy Carr
If unschoolers believe that kids learn to read when they are ready, how can you explain the Millions of Americans that cant read? And as I understand it, most of these people went to school and some even graduated! They are exposed to a lot of books, Like unschoolers are, but yet they do not read. I was laying in bed last night wondering about that! You guys always have such excellent advice and great comments, I thought Id ask you!
Wendy
Unschooler since Sept 03!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wendy
Unschooler since Sept 03!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
WendyWCarr@... writes:
Imo unschoolers believe kids will learn what they need and want, when
they need and want it, UNLESS someone screws it all up for them. Unschooling
is no absolute guarantee but certainly neither is school (see above) so it
comes down to doing the best you can and making the most of the journey.
OTOH, if you're asking specifically for an explanation of the
statistical claims about millions of illiterate adults, that's a whole other kettle of
fish. There are many varying "definitions" of literacy, and significant
numbers of people for whom English isn't their first -- or even a current --
language but whose comprehension skills are measured in English anyway for the
purpose of such statistics, and people with all sorts of disadvantages and
disabilities and major illnesses (not counting unschooling or schooling as any of
these btw!) and even varying definitions of "adult."
JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> If unschoolers believe that kids learn to read when they are ready, how canExactly. :)
> you explain the Millions of Americans that cant read? And as I understand
> it, most of these people went to school and some even graduated!
Imo unschoolers believe kids will learn what they need and want, when
they need and want it, UNLESS someone screws it all up for them. Unschooling
is no absolute guarantee but certainly neither is school (see above) so it
comes down to doing the best you can and making the most of the journey.
OTOH, if you're asking specifically for an explanation of the
statistical claims about millions of illiterate adults, that's a whole other kettle of
fish. There are many varying "definitions" of literacy, and significant
numbers of people for whom English isn't their first -- or even a current --
language but whose comprehension skills are measured in English anyway for the
purpose of such statistics, and people with all sorts of disadvantages and
disabilities and major illnesses (not counting unschooling or schooling as any of
these btw!) and even varying definitions of "adult."
JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], "Wendy Carr"
<WendyWCarr@m...> wrote:
our "assessment" of them (based on previous experience and made in
private) was that they probably wouldn't learn. I worked with some
pretty good reading teachers (an oxymoron, perhaps, but I mean in the
schooling sense) -- they spent time after school with students, they
tried not to shame them, they really tried to build on successes.
But when I watched these students, whenever printed words were
brought out (as they are so often in school -- instructions, letters
to the home, report cards, lunch menus -- nearly everything is
printed), they didn't bring out their limited reading skills, they
brought out their defense and survival skills. They might ask the
teacher, ask a friend, look around for cues, blow it off, doodle,
start "acting out," -- whatever. They didn't bother looking at the
paper (unless their strategy was to pretend to read) -- they'd
learned long ago that what they needed to survive wasn't going to be
there.
So when all the cognitive processes *did* start to come together in
their brains and they would have been ready to read if they'd been
left alone, everyone missed it. The defenses were too high,
the "skills" they had so far were too laborious, the work was too far
removed from anything they cared about. And so they left my school
and high school not just unable to read, but defined by that -- many
of these kids could do things that I couldn't (fix cars, dance hip
hop, farm land, etc.) but a good part of their life had been spent on
focusing on what they were told they couldn't do.
I'd really wanted to be with kids and "help" kids when I went into
teaching, but schools are not the place to do those things.
Peace,
Amy
<WendyWCarr@m...> wrote:
> If unschoolers believe that kids learn to read when they are ready,how can you explain the Millions of Americans that cant read?
> WendyWhen I taught, I saw 15 year olds who couldn't read --
> Unschooler since Sept 03!
our "assessment" of them (based on previous experience and made in
private) was that they probably wouldn't learn. I worked with some
pretty good reading teachers (an oxymoron, perhaps, but I mean in the
schooling sense) -- they spent time after school with students, they
tried not to shame them, they really tried to build on successes.
But when I watched these students, whenever printed words were
brought out (as they are so often in school -- instructions, letters
to the home, report cards, lunch menus -- nearly everything is
printed), they didn't bring out their limited reading skills, they
brought out their defense and survival skills. They might ask the
teacher, ask a friend, look around for cues, blow it off, doodle,
start "acting out," -- whatever. They didn't bother looking at the
paper (unless their strategy was to pretend to read) -- they'd
learned long ago that what they needed to survive wasn't going to be
there.
So when all the cognitive processes *did* start to come together in
their brains and they would have been ready to read if they'd been
left alone, everyone missed it. The defenses were too high,
the "skills" they had so far were too laborious, the work was too far
removed from anything they cared about. And so they left my school
and high school not just unable to read, but defined by that -- many
of these kids could do things that I couldn't (fix cars, dance hip
hop, farm land, etc.) but a good part of their life had been spent on
focusing on what they were told they couldn't do.
I'd really wanted to be with kids and "help" kids when I went into
teaching, but schools are not the place to do those things.
Peace,
Amy
J. Stauffer
<<<< If unschoolers believe that kids learn to read when they are ready, how
can you explain the Millions of Americans that cant read? >>>>
But they are able to LEARN how to read......they just don't believe it
anymore....or have been shamed into thinking they are stupid.
My ds is teaching himself to read at age 10. He went to Kindergarten for 3
months....within those 3 months, he didn't learn to read at age 5 so his
teacher wanted him to repeat K. That would hav started the process of Zach
seeing himself as "less than"......as it was I messed him up by trying to do
Kindergarten at home.
Zach got so freaked out that I was asking him to do something that he
obviously wasn't ready for that he refused to look at a book for about 3
years. During those years, I read anything he asked me to for him,
directions to games, TV guide, etc..
Then he discovered the world of 10 yo boys and Yu-Gi-Oh. Not exactly cool
to have to run to mom before you make your play, hard to remember what each
monster does....it was worth it to learn to read.
Julie S.
can you explain the Millions of Americans that cant read? >>>>
But they are able to LEARN how to read......they just don't believe it
anymore....or have been shamed into thinking they are stupid.
My ds is teaching himself to read at age 10. He went to Kindergarten for 3
months....within those 3 months, he didn't learn to read at age 5 so his
teacher wanted him to repeat K. That would hav started the process of Zach
seeing himself as "less than"......as it was I messed him up by trying to do
Kindergarten at home.
Zach got so freaked out that I was asking him to do something that he
obviously wasn't ready for that he refused to look at a book for about 3
years. During those years, I read anything he asked me to for him,
directions to games, TV guide, etc..
Then he discovered the world of 10 yo boys and Yu-Gi-Oh. Not exactly cool
to have to run to mom before you make your play, hard to remember what each
monster does....it was worth it to learn to read.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wendy Carr" <WendyWCarr@...>
To: "UnschoolingDiscussion" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 1:37 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Question about people who cant read in
America
> If unschoolers believe that kids learn to read when they are ready, how
can you explain the Millions of Americans that cant read? And as I
understand it, most of these people went to school and some even graduated!
They are exposed to a lot of books, Like unschoolers are, but yet they do
not read. I was laying in bed last night wondering about that! You guys
always have such excellent advice and great comments, I thought Id ask you!
>
> Wendy
> Unschooler since Sept 03!
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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liza sabater
On Monday, February 2, 2004, at 02:37 PM, Wendy Carr wrote:
tested until they're 16-17. After that, you'd be hard pressed to know
if someone can or cannot read. Still, there is also the case of the
functionally illiterate, people who pass those exams as 'readers'.
Tests and assessments are very, very, misleading.
l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> how can you explain the Millions of Americans that cant read?They can't read at the time of the tests or assessments. People are
tested until they're 16-17. After that, you'd be hard pressed to know
if someone can or cannot read. Still, there is also the case of the
functionally illiterate, people who pass those exams as 'readers'.
Tests and assessments are very, very, misleading.
l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 2/2/04 2:37 PM, Wendy Carr at WendyWCarr@... wrote:
A good way to make someone hates something is to make them do it.
A good way to make sure someone is certain they can't do something is to
humiliate them when they try.
Unschooling is about not doing any of that. It's about the child having
pleasant experiences with text: reading what and when the child wants. No
pressure to read by a particular age. No humiliation. No standards about
what the child should read. There's no outside agenda.
Joyce
> They are exposedThe two "exposures" are poles apart.
> to a lot of books, Like unschoolers are, but yet they do not read.
A good way to make someone hates something is to make them do it.
A good way to make sure someone is certain they can't do something is to
humiliate them when they try.
Unschooling is about not doing any of that. It's about the child having
pleasant experiences with text: reading what and when the child wants. No
pressure to read by a particular age. No humiliation. No standards about
what the child should read. There's no outside agenda.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/2/04 7:08:43 PM, fetteroll@... writes:
<<
Unschooling is about not doing any of that. It's about the child having
pleasant experiences with text: reading what and when the child wants. No
pressure to read by a particular age. No humiliation. No standards about
what the child should read. There's no outside agenda. >>
A kid with a copy of Nintendo Power in school would probably have it
confiscated.
We paid for Kirby's and helped him keep them organized. We got him a
library-style magazine cover so that his current issue was in heavy plastic, and when
the next one came he transfered the old issue into the file box.
A child in school wanting to do a book report on something he read online or
in a comic book or on a video game or text-based role playing game would be
told that wasn't really reading.
It is.
Sandra
<<
Unschooling is about not doing any of that. It's about the child having
pleasant experiences with text: reading what and when the child wants. No
pressure to read by a particular age. No humiliation. No standards about
what the child should read. There's no outside agenda. >>
A kid with a copy of Nintendo Power in school would probably have it
confiscated.
We paid for Kirby's and helped him keep them organized. We got him a
library-style magazine cover so that his current issue was in heavy plastic, and when
the next one came he transfered the old issue into the file box.
A child in school wanting to do a book report on something he read online or
in a comic book or on a video game or text-based role playing game would be
told that wasn't really reading.
It is.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/2/04 8:43:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
listdiva@... writes:
and really wanted to get a better job so he could support a potentially
growing family etc. So he asked his wife to help him learn and together they did
and now he reads very well. He was motivated because it became important to
him.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
listdiva@... writes:
> They can't read at the time of the tests or assessments. People areI have a friend who couldn't read and graduated high school. He then married
> tested until they're 16-17. After that, you'd be hard pressed to know
> if someone can or cannot read.
and really wanted to get a better job so he could support a potentially
growing family etc. So he asked his wife to help him learn and together they did
and now he reads very well. He was motivated because it became important to
him.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Roxanne Trimper
--- In [email protected], Genant2@a... wrote:
You may find it fascinating to learn that America's 17th president,
Andrew Johnson (1808-1875), was taught to read and write by his
WIFE!!!!!
He married her when he was 19 (1827) and when he was 22 (1830) years
old he was elected the mayor of Greeneville, Tennessee.
He was known as a brave, thoughtful and intelligent man that was
popular with the "common" people. So much so that when Abraham
Lincoln(R) ran for re-election in 1864, the man he picked as his vice-
president was Andrew Johnson(D).
Most historians will agree that his impeachment was not due to
presidential incompetence, but was the loss of a political fight with
the US congress over aspects of the reconstruction of a war torn
country.
Who is to say that someone who learns to read after the age of 9 is
doomed to be a failure in life??? There are many famous people in
history who were late on the learning curve.
We have a friend whose son was an academic whiz and they had high
hopes of him pursuing some great degree and becoming a
big "somebody." They were very disappointed when he dropped out of
a very prestigious college and took up a job at a fast-food
restaurant. He was burnt out on the rat race and wanted life to
slow down. Even though their relationship with him is getting
better there is still a lot of tension.
Both of these stories have elements of success or failure depending
upon personal perceptions and expectations. I choose to see both
as success stories.
With much gratitude to this group,
Roxanne Trimper
(Member since December 2003, mother of 7 individual blessings)
From Torrance, California USA
> In a message dated 2/2/04 8:43:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,then married
> listdiva@c... writes:
>
> I have a friend who couldn't read and graduated high school. He
> and really wanted to get a better job so he could support apotentially
> growing family etc. So he asked his wife to help him learn andtogether they did
> and now he reads very well. He was motivated because it becameimportant to
> him.*********************************************
> Pam G
You may find it fascinating to learn that America's 17th president,
Andrew Johnson (1808-1875), was taught to read and write by his
WIFE!!!!!
He married her when he was 19 (1827) and when he was 22 (1830) years
old he was elected the mayor of Greeneville, Tennessee.
He was known as a brave, thoughtful and intelligent man that was
popular with the "common" people. So much so that when Abraham
Lincoln(R) ran for re-election in 1864, the man he picked as his vice-
president was Andrew Johnson(D).
Most historians will agree that his impeachment was not due to
presidential incompetence, but was the loss of a political fight with
the US congress over aspects of the reconstruction of a war torn
country.
Who is to say that someone who learns to read after the age of 9 is
doomed to be a failure in life??? There are many famous people in
history who were late on the learning curve.
We have a friend whose son was an academic whiz and they had high
hopes of him pursuing some great degree and becoming a
big "somebody." They were very disappointed when he dropped out of
a very prestigious college and took up a job at a fast-food
restaurant. He was burnt out on the rat race and wanted life to
slow down. Even though their relationship with him is getting
better there is still a lot of tension.
Both of these stories have elements of success or failure depending
upon personal perceptions and expectations. I choose to see both
as success stories.
With much gratitude to this group,
Roxanne Trimper
(Member since December 2003, mother of 7 individual blessings)
From Torrance, California USA
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/04 5:51:36 AM, Trimpertribe@... writes:
<< You may find it fascinating to learn that America's 17th president,
Andrew Johnson (1808-1875), was taught to read and write by his
WIFE!!!!!
He married her when he was 19 (1827) and when he was 22 (1830) years
old he was elected the mayor of Greeneville, Tennessee. >>
THANK YOU for that very cool story.
I've appended it to "You Could Grow Up to be President"
which is here:
http:/sandradodd.com/president
Sandra
<< You may find it fascinating to learn that America's 17th president,
Andrew Johnson (1808-1875), was taught to read and write by his
WIFE!!!!!
He married her when he was 19 (1827) and when he was 22 (1830) years
old he was elected the mayor of Greeneville, Tennessee. >>
THANK YOU for that very cool story.
I've appended it to "You Could Grow Up to be President"
which is here:
http:/sandradodd.com/president
Sandra
lmanathome
<< You may find it fascinating to learn that America's 17th president,
not "reading" to "expectations" and her reply was so wonderful I
thought I'd share it...
" Given the pool of presidential candidates, I'd rather have Roxanne
in the White House, reading or not!"
Thanks Mom!
Lisa Heyman
> Andrew Johnson (1808-1875), was taught to read and write by his<LOL> I forwarded this message to my mom who is anxious that my 10yo
> WIFE!!!!!
> He married her when he was 19 (1827) and when he was 22 (1830) years
> old he was elected the mayor of Greeneville, Tennessee. >>
not "reading" to "expectations" and her reply was so wonderful I
thought I'd share it...
" Given the pool of presidential candidates, I'd rather have Roxanne
in the White House, reading or not!"
Thanks Mom!
Lisa Heyman
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2/3/04 5:51:36 AM, Trimpertribe@c... writes:
>
> >
> THANK YOU for that very cool story.
>
> I've appended it to "You Could Grow Up to be President"
> which is here:
>
> http:/sandradodd.com/president
>
>
> Sandra