A warm hello from the UK- and some questions!
Debbie
Hello, I have been lurking on and off for months and felt it was time
I posted an intro.
I live in the UK and have three children, ds (7.5), dd (5.5) and dd
(3.5) and have been home educating them for nearly two years. The
eldest two have tried school and are adamant they are never going
again!
The problem is that I still don't feel confident or at peace with
what I'm doing, worry constantly and keep changing my approach. This
has got to change!
I've toyed with Charlotte Mason, Waldorf, unschooling and a more
structured approach with reading, writing and maths practice every
morning. My son, who I worry about most, is reluctant to do anything
he regards as school work but if I let him do exactly what he wants
he will just watch tv constantly. I know many (all?) of you wouldn't
have a problem with that but his behaviour worsens, he gets headaches
(he wears glasses) and isnt't active or using his imagination when
he's stuck in front of the box all the time.
He also plays constantly, mostly with my eldest daughter. Which is
fine but I worry that he isn't learning *anything*. He is very behind
his peers, which I know shouldn't bother me, but remember 99% of
children in the UK start formal schooling at four. He is bright, but
not curious about anything. He never asks questions and is quite
challenging in his behaviour.
Sorry for the long post but I need guidance and feel all at sea. Do
you think parents and children have to be of a certain personality to
successfully unschool? I feel I've made so many mistakes,
particularly where my son is concerned, and don't want to make any
more.
Apologies again for the ramble,
best wishes,
Deborah.
I posted an intro.
I live in the UK and have three children, ds (7.5), dd (5.5) and dd
(3.5) and have been home educating them for nearly two years. The
eldest two have tried school and are adamant they are never going
again!
The problem is that I still don't feel confident or at peace with
what I'm doing, worry constantly and keep changing my approach. This
has got to change!
I've toyed with Charlotte Mason, Waldorf, unschooling and a more
structured approach with reading, writing and maths practice every
morning. My son, who I worry about most, is reluctant to do anything
he regards as school work but if I let him do exactly what he wants
he will just watch tv constantly. I know many (all?) of you wouldn't
have a problem with that but his behaviour worsens, he gets headaches
(he wears glasses) and isnt't active or using his imagination when
he's stuck in front of the box all the time.
He also plays constantly, mostly with my eldest daughter. Which is
fine but I worry that he isn't learning *anything*. He is very behind
his peers, which I know shouldn't bother me, but remember 99% of
children in the UK start formal schooling at four. He is bright, but
not curious about anything. He never asks questions and is quite
challenging in his behaviour.
Sorry for the long post but I need guidance and feel all at sea. Do
you think parents and children have to be of a certain personality to
successfully unschool? I feel I've made so many mistakes,
particularly where my son is concerned, and don't want to make any
more.
Apologies again for the ramble,
best wishes,
Deborah.
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/31/04 4:56:32 PM, stripeybee@... writes:
<< My son, who I worry about most, is reluctant to do anything
he regards as school work but if I let him do exactly what he wants
he will just watch tv constantly. >>
Not wanting to do school work is smart.
If you let him do exactly what he wants he will NOT just watch TV contantly.
He might right at first, and the more you have or continue to show
disapproval, the more he will watch. It's like a direct reaction to limitations and
tsking.
Here is my collection of "if I let him, he will..." statements, and nobody
has ever come back and proven their dire predictions to be true. On the
contrary, people come back and say "You were right. I let him do what he wanted and
after a while he turned the TV off. Some days it's not even on."
He can't turn it off by his own choice if he doesn't really HAVE an honest
choice.
He won't want to turn it off if he knows you'll do the happy told-you-so,
it's-about-time dance if he does.
You're making yourself a factor where you would be better off NOT being a
factor.
And on the other hand maybe you should spend some time watching WITH him so
you have more shared experience and things to talk about. If watching TV is
his thing and complaining about TV is your thing, you spoiled a chance to have a
shared thing.
http://sandradodd.com/strew/ifilet
-=-and isnt't active or using his imagination when
he's stuck in front of the box all the time.-=-
Very judgmental choice of terminology. If he's there by choice, he's not
"stuck." If someone else sticks him there he's stuck. "The box"? It's not a
hole to fall into. It's an outpouring of music, pictures, stories, voices,
people. My kids play and watch, walk and watch, brush the cat and watch, build
up the fire in the fireplace and watch. Maybe you could bring his Lego in
there or get him a little trampoline so he'd have something to do while he
watches. Or maybe he's really engrossed and involved.
You have no idea what imagination he's using while he's watching. If you
would hang out with him more and talk about the shows, you might get a glimpse.
(Not if you say "What do you see in that stupid show anyway?")
Once I wrote a candid outpouring of what I used to think as a kid watching
Gilligan's Island re-runs. It's here:
http://sandradodd.com/t/gilligan
<<He also plays constantly, mostly with my eldest daughter. Which is
fine but I worry that he isn't learning *anything*.>>
He must be living a double life if he's doing two things constantly.
You must have learned, from all your examination and experimentation with
different early childhood ed methods, that play is exactly how children learn.
-=-He is bright, but
not curious about anything. He never asks questions and is quite
challenging in his behaviour.-=-
Curiosity isn't something you can see. It's like imagination. It doesn't
need to be expressed verbally to exist. It doesn't have to be acted out or
acted upon visibly to be happening.
Maybe he's bored and home and you should get him out more places.
-=- Do
you think parents and children have to be of a certain personality to
successfully unschool?-=-
Yes. They need to be curious. They need to be imaginative. They need not
to be judgmental about other people's interests, and they need to know that
children AND adults learn from playing, and learn from just messing around with
and tinkering with things that interest them. (a.k.a. "playing")
Sandra
<< My son, who I worry about most, is reluctant to do anything
he regards as school work but if I let him do exactly what he wants
he will just watch tv constantly. >>
Not wanting to do school work is smart.
If you let him do exactly what he wants he will NOT just watch TV contantly.
He might right at first, and the more you have or continue to show
disapproval, the more he will watch. It's like a direct reaction to limitations and
tsking.
Here is my collection of "if I let him, he will..." statements, and nobody
has ever come back and proven their dire predictions to be true. On the
contrary, people come back and say "You were right. I let him do what he wanted and
after a while he turned the TV off. Some days it's not even on."
He can't turn it off by his own choice if he doesn't really HAVE an honest
choice.
He won't want to turn it off if he knows you'll do the happy told-you-so,
it's-about-time dance if he does.
You're making yourself a factor where you would be better off NOT being a
factor.
And on the other hand maybe you should spend some time watching WITH him so
you have more shared experience and things to talk about. If watching TV is
his thing and complaining about TV is your thing, you spoiled a chance to have a
shared thing.
http://sandradodd.com/strew/ifilet
-=-and isnt't active or using his imagination when
he's stuck in front of the box all the time.-=-
Very judgmental choice of terminology. If he's there by choice, he's not
"stuck." If someone else sticks him there he's stuck. "The box"? It's not a
hole to fall into. It's an outpouring of music, pictures, stories, voices,
people. My kids play and watch, walk and watch, brush the cat and watch, build
up the fire in the fireplace and watch. Maybe you could bring his Lego in
there or get him a little trampoline so he'd have something to do while he
watches. Or maybe he's really engrossed and involved.
You have no idea what imagination he's using while he's watching. If you
would hang out with him more and talk about the shows, you might get a glimpse.
(Not if you say "What do you see in that stupid show anyway?")
Once I wrote a candid outpouring of what I used to think as a kid watching
Gilligan's Island re-runs. It's here:
http://sandradodd.com/t/gilligan
<<He also plays constantly, mostly with my eldest daughter. Which is
fine but I worry that he isn't learning *anything*.>>
He must be living a double life if he's doing two things constantly.
You must have learned, from all your examination and experimentation with
different early childhood ed methods, that play is exactly how children learn.
-=-He is bright, but
not curious about anything. He never asks questions and is quite
challenging in his behaviour.-=-
Curiosity isn't something you can see. It's like imagination. It doesn't
need to be expressed verbally to exist. It doesn't have to be acted out or
acted upon visibly to be happening.
Maybe he's bored and home and you should get him out more places.
-=- Do
you think parents and children have to be of a certain personality to
successfully unschool?-=-
Yes. They need to be curious. They need to be imaginative. They need not
to be judgmental about other people's interests, and they need to know that
children AND adults learn from playing, and learn from just messing around with
and tinkering with things that interest them. (a.k.a. "playing")
Sandra
Jon and Rue Kream
>> but if I let him do exactly what he wantshe will just watch tv constantly. I know many (all?) of you wouldn't
have a problem with that
**So many people say that, but I've yet to hear of a family where it
really happened. My children, who have always been able to watch TV any
time they want, do not watch constantly. Your son, if given the freedom
to watch TV any time he wants, may for a while watch constantly. He may
think you're going to change your mind. He may just be so excited to be
able to watch that it takes a while to get his fill. In any case, if
the life around him is fun and interesting and/or exciting, he will
eventually find the balance between TV and other activities that is best
for him.
>>he gets headaches(he wears glasses)
**Maybe he needs a new prescription?
>>He also plays constantly, mostly with my eldest daughter. Which isfine but I worry that he isn't learning *anything*.
**Play is how children learn. If he's playing with his sister he's
learning and he's building a relationship with his sister that he'll
have for the rest of his life. All good.
>> He is bright, butnot curious about anything. He never asks questions
**Questions are not the only way curiousity is manifested. Who knows
what is going on inside his head? He does. You can trust that he can
decide how best to spend his time.
>>Doyou think parents and children have to be of a certain personality to
successfully unschool?
**I think parents have to be of a certain personality: interested,
mindful, curious, open to life. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Erika Nunn
>"but if I let him do exactly what he wants he will just watch tvI am intrigued with your situation, and want to understand where you are
>constantly. I know many (all?) of you wouldn't have a problem with that"
coming from more. Do you ever present activities for your son outside of,
or inside of the household - painting, a trip to a children's museum, a
library trip to find a book or video on a subject that interest him? How
does he respond? Does he enjoy having you read him books? Literally how
many hours a day does he spend in front of the TV? I feel like I am coming
across accusingly, but I am really just curious as to why some children may
choose to watch TV literally all day. My kids do enjoy TV to a point, but
there are so many other things for them to do that there are about 4 days
out of the week that it never even gets turned on. Sometimes I wonder if it
is because their parents watch a lot of TV and don't have a lot of other
activities that they are personally interested in....? Or maybe kids can
get "scared" of doing "learning" activities because they were graded
previously, or critiqued too much...so in turn they find the TV a safe
outlet?
Just curious.
Erika :)
_________________________________________________________________
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Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese
>I am really just curious as to why some children mayit
>choose to watch TV literally all day. My kids do enjoy TV to a point, but
>there are so many other things for them to do that there are about 4 days
>out of the week that it never even gets turned on. Sometimes I wonder if
>is because their parents watch a lot of TV and don't have a lot of otherI'll let Debbie speak for herself, but my experience has been that asking
>activities that they are personally interested in....? Or maybe kids can
>get "scared" of doing "learning" activities because they were graded
>previously, or critiqued too much...so in turn they find the TV a safe
>outlet?
why one kid may choose to watch TV a lot is kind of like asking why one kid
has a sweet tooth and wants to eat a lot of sugary things a lot as opposed
to another kid with different taste buds. I personally do not watch TV at
all and am always making other alternatives available to my kids (ages 5 and
3) that correspond to their interests. They've never been schooled and I do
not pressure them in any way so it's not related to that. My 5 year old
doesn't generally request TV or videos much unless it's something new that
caught her fancy which she watches for a while then gets tired of. Days go
by and it can be forgotten. My 3 year old son on the other hand did get to
a point where he was watching constantly every day - and it had the domino
effect of drawing my daughter in to watch when if it hadn't been on she
would not have been doing that. She would then want to watch "the next
video" so as not to have her brother's preferences on all day. And yes, it
felt like we were starting to watch videos all day and everything else was
"after the videos, mom". So I set a limit on them of a number per day my
son can watch which he respects like he respects limits to other things
which his Mom thinks are great in small amounts but not so great if he's
doing them all day long. I don't prescribe what else he has to do other
than the video watching, he decides that.
I respect other people's different experiences and choices - this has been
ours.
Joan
[email protected]
salgenovese@... writes:
is the only thing you prescribe. Could you clarify? JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So I set a limit on them of a number per day myYou say he respects limits on other things, but then seem to say this
> son can watch which he respects like he respects limits to other things
> which his Mom thinks are great in small amounts but not so great if he's
> doing them all day long. I don't prescribe what else he has to do other
> than the video watching, he decides that.
>
is the only thing you prescribe. Could you clarify? JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese
I mean like eating sweets (my son is the one with the endless sweet tooth
also while my daughter eats a bit then gets tired of it) - I attempt to go
with minimal limits to things in general.
Joan
-----Original Message-----
From: jrossedd@... [mailto:jrossedd@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 9:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] A warm hello from the UK- and some
questions!
salgenovese@... writes:
is the only thing you prescribe. Could you clarify? JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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also while my daughter eats a bit then gets tired of it) - I attempt to go
with minimal limits to things in general.
Joan
-----Original Message-----
From: jrossedd@... [mailto:jrossedd@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 9:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] A warm hello from the UK- and some
questions!
salgenovese@... writes:
> So I set a limit on them of a number per day myYou say he respects limits on other things, but then seem to say this
> son can watch which he respects like he respects limits to other things
> which his Mom thinks are great in small amounts but not so great if he's
> doing them all day long. I don't prescribe what else he has to do other
> than the video watching, he decides that.
>
is the only thing you prescribe. Could you clarify? JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
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Danielle Conger
I feel like I am coming
Dh and I went about 10 yrs without TV--no cable and no reception where we
lived (we always had a vcr). So we don't do too much tv here; we do mostly
videos and DVDs. This is partly out of habit, I guess. But that's what the
kids have grown up doing as well--pop in a video when they want to watch
something. They know tv is out there and that there's fun stuff on it, but
somehow they associate it more with hotels than home. *g*
Some days are "watching days" around here. Maybe somebody's sick or it's
really cold out. Maybe we've just been going full speed for a while and need
to relax. Point is, this goes in waves or spurts. We might watch lots of
movies for a while, but then we're off doing other things, having other
interests. In our lives, I don't think any one thing predominates. For a
week or so, it may seem like all we do is watch movies. For another week,
we're really into board games. Lately, we've been really into Majesty--a new
castle sim game that we got for the computer. Felt like we were playing it
all the time. Sometimes I'd play by myself; I'd play with dh or even 3
players with our 6 yo over wireless. We were having fun and getting into a
new game. But that's slowing down now. (Well, dh is still geeking out,
reading cheats and walkthroughs on his laptop while playing on the big
computer. *g*) Next week, I'm guessing we'll be hunkered down reading Harry
Potter because we just watched the first two movies, which we borrowed from
the library.
Unschooling's kind of like the stock market: you have to be in it for the
long haul and look at the big picture. It's not all ups and it's not all
downs, but from a narrow perspective it may look that way. Pull your
investment too soon, and you've missed the big payoff for focusing only on
the immediate circumstance. Of course, the analogy falls apart when you
think about the big crash--unschooling would never do that! ;)
--danielle, who should really have more coffee before attempting analogies!
> across accusingly, but I am really just curious as to why some childrenmay
> choose to watch TV literally all day. My kids do enjoy TV to a point, but=================================================
> there are so many other things for them to do that there are about 4 days
> out of the week that it never even gets turned on.
> Erika :)
Dh and I went about 10 yrs without TV--no cable and no reception where we
lived (we always had a vcr). So we don't do too much tv here; we do mostly
videos and DVDs. This is partly out of habit, I guess. But that's what the
kids have grown up doing as well--pop in a video when they want to watch
something. They know tv is out there and that there's fun stuff on it, but
somehow they associate it more with hotels than home. *g*
Some days are "watching days" around here. Maybe somebody's sick or it's
really cold out. Maybe we've just been going full speed for a while and need
to relax. Point is, this goes in waves or spurts. We might watch lots of
movies for a while, but then we're off doing other things, having other
interests. In our lives, I don't think any one thing predominates. For a
week or so, it may seem like all we do is watch movies. For another week,
we're really into board games. Lately, we've been really into Majesty--a new
castle sim game that we got for the computer. Felt like we were playing it
all the time. Sometimes I'd play by myself; I'd play with dh or even 3
players with our 6 yo over wireless. We were having fun and getting into a
new game. But that's slowing down now. (Well, dh is still geeking out,
reading cheats and walkthroughs on his laptop while playing on the big
computer. *g*) Next week, I'm guessing we'll be hunkered down reading Harry
Potter because we just watched the first two movies, which we borrowed from
the library.
Unschooling's kind of like the stock market: you have to be in it for the
long haul and look at the big picture. It's not all ups and it's not all
downs, but from a narrow perspective it may look that way. Pull your
investment too soon, and you've missed the big payoff for focusing only on
the immediate circumstance. Of course, the analogy falls apart when you
think about the big crash--unschooling would never do that! ;)
--danielle, who should really have more coffee before attempting analogies!
[email protected]
Okay. Here's what I am hearing: as the mom, you do limit some things
to "less than he would choose on his own" but you don't have any rules to
impose "more than he would choose on his own" of things for his own good such as
eating vegetables, doing chores, reading, writing, studying, et cetera?
Is this right? (Not to set up an argument or anything, I just find
this more unusual than either no-limits and prescriptions or all kinds of limits
and prescriptions.) JJ
salgenovese@... writes:
to "less than he would choose on his own" but you don't have any rules to
impose "more than he would choose on his own" of things for his own good such as
eating vegetables, doing chores, reading, writing, studying, et cetera?
Is this right? (Not to set up an argument or anything, I just find
this more unusual than either no-limits and prescriptions or all kinds of limits
and prescriptions.) JJ
salgenovese@... writes:
> I mean like eating sweets (my son is the one with the endless sweet tooth[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> also while my daughter eats a bit then gets tired of it) - I attempt to go
> with minimal limits to things in general.
>
> Joan
>
>
> salgenovese@... writes:
>
>
> > So I set a limit on them of a number per day my
> > son can watch which he respects like he respects limits to other things
> > which his Mom thinks are great in small amounts but not so great if he's
> > doing them all day long. I don't prescribe what else he has to do other
> > than the video watching, he decides that.
> >
>
> You say he respects limits on other things, but then seem to say this
> is the only thing you prescribe. Could you clarify? JJ
>
>
>
Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese
That's an interesting way of putting it and it sounds like it fits what I've
done (although I don't think I had it as sorted out as that). Joan
-----Original Message-----
From: jrossedd@... [mailto:jrossedd@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 9:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] A warm hello from the UK- and some
questions!
Okay. Here's what I am hearing: as the mom, you do limit some things
to "less than he would choose on his own" but you don't have any rules to
impose "more than he would choose on his own" of things for his own good
such as
eating vegetables, doing chores, reading, writing, studying, et cetera?
Is this right? (Not to set up an argument or anything, I just find
this more unusual than either no-limits and prescriptions or all kinds of
limits
and prescriptions.) JJ
salgenovese@... writes:
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done (although I don't think I had it as sorted out as that). Joan
-----Original Message-----
From: jrossedd@... [mailto:jrossedd@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 9:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] A warm hello from the UK- and some
questions!
Okay. Here's what I am hearing: as the mom, you do limit some things
to "less than he would choose on his own" but you don't have any rules to
impose "more than he would choose on his own" of things for his own good
such as
eating vegetables, doing chores, reading, writing, studying, et cetera?
Is this right? (Not to set up an argument or anything, I just find
this more unusual than either no-limits and prescriptions or all kinds of
limits
and prescriptions.) JJ
salgenovese@... writes:
> I mean like eating sweets (my son is the one with the endless sweet tooththis
> also while my daughter eats a bit then gets tired of it) - I attempt to go
> with minimal limits to things in general.
>
> Joan
>
>
> salgenovese@... writes:
>
>
> > So I set a limit on them of a number per day my
> > son can watch which he respects like he respects limits to other things
> > which his Mom thinks are great in small amounts but not so great if he's
> > doing them all day long. I don't prescribe what else he has to do other
> > than the video watching, he decides that.
> >
>
> You say he respects limits on other things, but then seem to say
> is the only thing you prescribe. Could you clarify? JJ[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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[email protected]
In a message dated 2/1/04 6:43:32 AM, salgenovese@... writes:
<< My 3 year old son on the other hand did get to
a point where he was watching constantly every day - and it had the domino
effect of drawing my daughter in to watch when if it hadn't been on she
would not have been doing that. >>
If you had a child who read a lot of books, and another child was intrigued
and then began to read a lot of the same books, and they had that common
experience so that they could discuss them, would you limit books? Would you think
the first book-reader had lured the sibling into a world of evil books?
<<And yes, it felt like we were starting to watch videos all day and
everything else was
"after the videos, mom". >>
Videos are gloriously "pausable." If there's something more rewarding for a
child to do, she'll probably be thrilled to do it. If the alternatives are
not more rewarding, she's smart to do the thing which seems to her most
interesting. That's where learning is, on the edge of interest.
Sandra
<< My 3 year old son on the other hand did get to
a point where he was watching constantly every day - and it had the domino
effect of drawing my daughter in to watch when if it hadn't been on she
would not have been doing that. >>
If you had a child who read a lot of books, and another child was intrigued
and then began to read a lot of the same books, and they had that common
experience so that they could discuss them, would you limit books? Would you think
the first book-reader had lured the sibling into a world of evil books?
<<And yes, it felt like we were starting to watch videos all day and
everything else was
"after the videos, mom". >>
Videos are gloriously "pausable." If there's something more rewarding for a
child to do, she'll probably be thrilled to do it. If the alternatives are
not more rewarding, she's smart to do the thing which seems to her most
interesting. That's where learning is, on the edge of interest.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/1/04 8:23:08 AM, danielle.conger@... writes:
<< Unschooling's kind of like the stock market: you have to be in it for the
long haul and look at the big picture. It's not all ups and it's not all
downs, but from a narrow perspective it may look that way. Pull your
investment too soon, and you've missed the big payoff for focusing only on
the immediate circumstance. Of course, the analogy falls apart when you
think about the big crash--unschooling would never do that! ;) >>
I like this analogy!
There could be the big crash of a kid deciding at 16 what he's really always
wanted was military school. <g>
There could be something that makes the mom wish she had spent all those
years being a professional and getting paychecks, maybe.
But the idea that there are lulls is a good one. Even with school, learning
curves aren't real curves. There are artifical ideal curves on charts that
districts draw, where one thing is learned, and the next skill builds on that,
etc., but I've never known a single kid to actually follow any of those curves.
In real-life situations, someone already knows something before the teacher
tells it, or is ignoring the teacher because his dog died, and all that.
Learning (in school or not) happens in fits and starts, with rest periods between.
School rewards kids being quiet, and so they eventually kill the advantage
of sparkly sudden learning. If the teachers don't get angry at a kid for
jumping up and saying "HEY, I GET IT! This is SO COOL," the other kids will laugh
him back into his seat.
But with unschooling the excited moments are lots of fun, and they don't
happen every day.
Sandra
<< Unschooling's kind of like the stock market: you have to be in it for the
long haul and look at the big picture. It's not all ups and it's not all
downs, but from a narrow perspective it may look that way. Pull your
investment too soon, and you've missed the big payoff for focusing only on
the immediate circumstance. Of course, the analogy falls apart when you
think about the big crash--unschooling would never do that! ;) >>
I like this analogy!
There could be the big crash of a kid deciding at 16 what he's really always
wanted was military school. <g>
There could be something that makes the mom wish she had spent all those
years being a professional and getting paychecks, maybe.
But the idea that there are lulls is a good one. Even with school, learning
curves aren't real curves. There are artifical ideal curves on charts that
districts draw, where one thing is learned, and the next skill builds on that,
etc., but I've never known a single kid to actually follow any of those curves.
In real-life situations, someone already knows something before the teacher
tells it, or is ignoring the teacher because his dog died, and all that.
Learning (in school or not) happens in fits and starts, with rest periods between.
School rewards kids being quiet, and so they eventually kill the advantage
of sparkly sudden learning. If the teachers don't get angry at a kid for
jumping up and saying "HEY, I GET IT! This is SO COOL," the other kids will laugh
him back into his seat.
But with unschooling the excited moments are lots of fun, and they don't
happen every day.
Sandra
Aimee
<<Sorry for the long post but I need guidance and feel
all at sea. Do
you think parents and children have to be of a certain
personality to
successfully unschool? I feel I've made so many
mistakes,
particularly where my son is concerned, and don't want
to make any
more.>>
First things first, BREATHE! lol
It sounds like you need to be able to think things
thru clearly, instead of bouncing around and confusing
yourself! You know the REM song, " Stand in the place
where you live." Do that! lol
It seems like you're at a point where you have learned
a lot about what doesn't work, and you could look at
that as a good thing! I mean, at least now you know,
right?
Now you're putting all your eggs in an unschooling
basket, and that's scary because you're worried that
this is another mistake.
I still worry about that sometimes, and it's been
almost 10 years. Everytime I worry, I try to connect
with my son in a different way, or pay attention to
different aspects of his life, or just simply remind
myself to spend time with him as much as possible.
Whenever I worry it's because I'm living in the
future, not with him, today. *Every time.* Try to
remember that, it might help.
Your son sounds like he's deschooling now, and that's
difficult for a parent who's used to worksheets and
curriculums, so read up on it a bit. ( there are
plenty of links, do a search on google, or try
unschooling.com, etc)
Unschooling can be difficult to acclimate yourself
to, and people get uncomfortable sometimes when
challenging all these ideas and beliefs that we've had
for so long. (Playing is not learning, judging what
kind of learning is good or bad, watching TV is a
waste of time, etc) I think that's normal, and it's
also a process that you can't really rush, just keep
paying attention to it, and do what you can.
I do think that some parents are better unschoolers
than others, but I don't unschool because it's best
for me, we do it because it's best for our son. It
might be harder work for us, because of that, but it's
worth it!
I'm not a very patient person, nor am a very flexible
person sometimes, but those things have improved with
time ( and effort!) while unschooling. My son is
better off for it, and so am I. I have never looked
back and said to myself, oh, it would have been better
for me and him, if I had just stayed impatient and
rigid and send him to school!
Don't forget to breathe! Open up to the moments you
have with your children. Enjoy. Try to remember to
live *in the moment* when you get anxious.
Peace~
Aimee
all at sea. Do
you think parents and children have to be of a certain
personality to
successfully unschool? I feel I've made so many
mistakes,
particularly where my son is concerned, and don't want
to make any
more.>>
First things first, BREATHE! lol
It sounds like you need to be able to think things
thru clearly, instead of bouncing around and confusing
yourself! You know the REM song, " Stand in the place
where you live." Do that! lol
It seems like you're at a point where you have learned
a lot about what doesn't work, and you could look at
that as a good thing! I mean, at least now you know,
right?
Now you're putting all your eggs in an unschooling
basket, and that's scary because you're worried that
this is another mistake.
I still worry about that sometimes, and it's been
almost 10 years. Everytime I worry, I try to connect
with my son in a different way, or pay attention to
different aspects of his life, or just simply remind
myself to spend time with him as much as possible.
Whenever I worry it's because I'm living in the
future, not with him, today. *Every time.* Try to
remember that, it might help.
Your son sounds like he's deschooling now, and that's
difficult for a parent who's used to worksheets and
curriculums, so read up on it a bit. ( there are
plenty of links, do a search on google, or try
unschooling.com, etc)
Unschooling can be difficult to acclimate yourself
to, and people get uncomfortable sometimes when
challenging all these ideas and beliefs that we've had
for so long. (Playing is not learning, judging what
kind of learning is good or bad, watching TV is a
waste of time, etc) I think that's normal, and it's
also a process that you can't really rush, just keep
paying attention to it, and do what you can.
I do think that some parents are better unschoolers
than others, but I don't unschool because it's best
for me, we do it because it's best for our son. It
might be harder work for us, because of that, but it's
worth it!
I'm not a very patient person, nor am a very flexible
person sometimes, but those things have improved with
time ( and effort!) while unschooling. My son is
better off for it, and so am I. I have never looked
back and said to myself, oh, it would have been better
for me and him, if I had just stayed impatient and
rigid and send him to school!
Don't forget to breathe! Open up to the moments you
have with your children. Enjoy. Try to remember to
live *in the moment* when you get anxious.
Peace~
Aimee
pam sorooshian
On Feb 1, 2004, at 6:26 AM, Danielle Conger wrote:
people who say "Unschooling didn't work for us," are like people who
invest one day and sell the next, at a loss, because they get scared if
the stock drops in value.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Unschooling's kind of like the stock market: you have to be in it forI really liked it, Danielle. It IS a good way to think about it. Those
> the
> long haul and look at the big picture. It's not all ups and it's not
> all
> downs, but from a narrow perspective it may look that way. Pull your
> investment too soon, and you've missed the big payoff for focusing
> only on
> the immediate circumstance. Of course, the analogy falls apart when you
> think about the big crash--unschooling would never do that! ;)
>
> --danielle, who should really have more coffee before attempting
> analogies!
>
people who say "Unschooling didn't work for us," are like people who
invest one day and sell the next, at a loss, because they get scared if
the stock drops in value.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Debbie
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
gets his fill. This is a bit like "how long is a piece of string"
question. How long might it take (not expecting any of you to answer
that one really)? Say if in five years time he is still watching more
tv/playing on gameboy etc than I am comfortable with and he is still
not reading and writing? I just feel like I have this one chance at
getting his education right and if he doesn't become motivated to
learn anything I will be left with regrets and will have messed up
his future.
It is hard, and it must be frustrating for those of you who have been
unschooling for years, but please bear with me.
Thank you.
wouldn't be able to rouse himself. He is like a total zombie and
cannot talk or hear apparently when the set is on. Not sure if anyone
has read/heard of the book "Set Free Childhood" about television and
how it affects the brain etc. Not comfortable reading and one I
sometimes wish I hadn't read.
<<He also plays constantly, mostly with my eldest daughter. Which is
simultaneously. I had been limiting the tv but if I hadn't those
would be the two things he would be doing but at different times. And
while I know playing is great I also know that people do need to
learn to read and write and be numerate and I had thought that at 7
this desire might kick in. Maybe I expect too much.
got lots of stuff, he has me and his sisters and sees lots of
friends. We also go to lots of events arranged by our home-ed group.
No, I honestly don't think he's bored.
I can't explain why it's so hard for me to embrace unschooling but I
am trying. Thanks for your input. He has spent all morning playing
Lord of the Rings on his Gameboy and I haven't said a word! Progress
for me! Sorry this is long, I'm rushing because dd1 is keen to get
onto Barbie Swan Lake CD-ROM.
Debbie
>nobody
> Here is my collection of "if I let him, he will..." statements, and
> has ever come back and proven their dire predictions to be true.On the
> contrary, people come back and say "You were right. I let him dowhat he wanted and
> after a while he turned the TV off. Some days it's not even on."Yes, but it's having the nerve, in my case, to sit it out while he
gets his fill. This is a bit like "how long is a piece of string"
question. How long might it take (not expecting any of you to answer
that one really)? Say if in five years time he is still watching more
tv/playing on gameboy etc than I am comfortable with and he is still
not reading and writing? I just feel like I have this one chance at
getting his education right and if he doesn't become motivated to
learn anything I will be left with regrets and will have messed up
his future.
It is hard, and it must be frustrating for those of you who have been
unschooling for years, but please bear with me.
>WITH him so
> And on the other hand maybe you should spend some time watching
> you have more shared experience and things to talk about. Ifwatching TV is
> his thing and complaining about TV is your thing, you spoiled achance to have a
> shared thing.This is a good point and obviously one that I haven't considered.
Thank you.
> Very judgmental choice of terminology. If he's there by choice,he's not
> "stuck." If someone else sticks him there he's stuck. "Thebox"? It's not a hole to fall into. It's an outpouring of music,
>pictures, stories, voices,watch, build
> people. My kids play and watch, walk and watch, brush the cat and
> up the fire in the fireplace and watch. Maybe you could bring hisLego in
> there or get him a little trampoline so he'd have something to dowhile he
> watches. Or maybe he's really engrossed and involved.Once the tv is on he is stuck. The house could be on fire and he
wouldn't be able to rouse himself. He is like a total zombie and
cannot talk or hear apparently when the set is on. Not sure if anyone
has read/heard of the book "Set Free Childhood" about television and
how it affects the brain etc. Not comfortable reading and one I
sometimes wish I hadn't read.
<<He also plays constantly, mostly with my eldest daughter. Which is
>fine but I worry that he isn't learning *anything*.>>Well, obviously he's not doing the two things constantly
>
> He must be living a double life if he's doing two things constantly.
>
> You must have learned, from all your examination and
>experimentation with different early childhood ed methods, that play
>is exactly how children learn.
>
simultaneously. I had been limiting the tv but if I hadn't those
would be the two things he would be doing but at different times. And
while I know playing is great I also know that people do need to
learn to read and write and be numerate and I had thought that at 7
this desire might kick in. Maybe I expect too much.
> Maybe he's bored and home and you should get him out more places.I don't think this is the case, he hardly ever says he's bored. We've
got lots of stuff, he has me and his sisters and sees lots of
friends. We also go to lots of events arranged by our home-ed group.
No, I honestly don't think he's bored.
I can't explain why it's so hard for me to embrace unschooling but I
am trying. Thanks for your input. He has spent all morning playing
Lord of the Rings on his Gameboy and I haven't said a word! Progress
for me! Sorry this is long, I'm rushing because dd1 is keen to get
onto Barbie Swan Lake CD-ROM.
Debbie
Wife2Vegman
--- Debbie <myrtlehogwash@...> wrote:
John Holt.
It describes how learning is taking place through our
children's choices of activity, teaching them the
basics as well as preparing them for learning about
their interests.
Here is a link to it at amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0201550911/qid=1075734846//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i5_xgl14/103-9747728-7367054?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
> AndYou might want to read: 'Learning All The Time' by
> while I know playing is great I also know that
> people do need to
> learn to read and write and be numerate and I had
> thought that at 7
> this desire might kick in. Maybe I expect too much.
John Holt.
It describes how learning is taking place through our
children's choices of activity, teaching them the
basics as well as preparing them for learning about
their interests.
Here is a link to it at amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0201550911/qid=1075734846//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i5_xgl14/103-9747728-7367054?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
J. Stauffer
<<<<<I also know that people do need to
boys do......there is really very little that they truly NEED to read or
write or know numbers.
But as they NEED it, they DO learn it. When he decides he wants to warm his
own food in the microwave, he will start to recognize numbers so he can push
the buttons.
When he decides that it is easier to read the video game instructions
himself rather than find you to do it, he will start to read.
When he has trouble remembering what he needs to get at the store, he will
start to write so he can make a list.
It truly is no more complicated than that.
Julie S.
> learn to read and write and be numerate and I had thought that at 7I think you are just still very much on "school time". Think about what 7yo
> this desire might kick in. Maybe I expect too much. >>>>>>>
boys do......there is really very little that they truly NEED to read or
write or know numbers.
But as they NEED it, they DO learn it. When he decides he wants to warm his
own food in the microwave, he will start to recognize numbers so he can push
the buttons.
When he decides that it is easier to read the video game instructions
himself rather than find you to do it, he will start to read.
When he has trouble remembering what he needs to get at the store, he will
start to write so he can make a list.
It truly is no more complicated than that.
Julie S.
Diane
>Say if in five years time he is still watching moreThis is really two different questions. One has to do with how much
>tv/playing on gameboy etc than I am comfortable with and he is still
>not reading and writing?
>
screen time he's using, and the other has to do with your comfort level.
It's easy to confuse the two, but it's very important to separate them
out when you're getting concerned. Keep a record for one week of what's
*really* happening. A journal can be good if you're a writer, but just a
list: 6 a.m asleep 7 a.m. eating watching TV, 8 a.m. fixing bike,
whatever like that may help clarify exactly what's happening. The idea
of "all the time" is one of those phrases we use to scare ourselves, but
it doesn't really say anything.
>I just feel like I have this one chance atTry this experiment: turn on the TV to his favorite show at a time you
>getting his education right and if he doesn't become motivated to
>learn anything I will be left with regrets and will have messed up
>his future.
>
> Once the tv is on he is stuck. The house could be on fire and he
>
>wouldn't be able to rouse himself. He is like a total zombie and
>cannot talk or hear apparently when the set is on.
>
won't *need* anything from him for days. Bring food. see if it's
literally true that he can't walk away. If you see him away from the
set, or you see it off, you'll know it's possible for him to get away.
Actually I got rid of my TV for many years as an adult because I felt
exactly that way, like I was "stuck" once it was on, but I was able to
address it and make my own decisions regarding that after nobody else
was making those decision *for* me.
:-) Diane
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/2/04 4:42:21 AM, myrtlehogwash@... writes:
<< Say if in five years time he is still watching more
tv/playing on gameboy etc than I am comfortable with and he is still
not reading and writing? >>
If in five years you hadn't become more comfortable with tv and gameboy, you
wouldn't be making the progress you will need to make for unschooling to work.
<<Yes, but it's having the nerve, in my case, to sit it out while he
gets his fill. >>
Then it's not that he would play it all day, you're saying that if he didn't
make you stop worrying about TV by turning it off, you would worry all the
time. <g>
<<Say if in five years time he is still watching more
tv/playing on gameboy etc than I am comfortable with and he is still
not reading and writing? >>
I've never seen that happen.
But by "writing" you probably have something in mind that is very schoolish
(I'm guessing) and speaking as someone who has "taught writing," I know that
the idea of writing is VERY very broad and I don't know whether you're thinking
penmanship or three page essays written just because an adult (a teacher or a
nervous mother) "assigned" a child to write about something in an unnatural
fashion. Practice writing, not real writing.
It doesn't matter right now what you're thinking of as "writing," just as
long as you do start thinking that what you're thinking might need examination
and adjustment.
<<I just feel like I have this one chance at
getting his education right and if he doesn't become motivated to
learn anything I will be left with regrets and will have messed up
his future.>>
An irritating guy in a real-time scheduled online chat once asked me
(thinking to trip me up badly) "Are you willing to risk your child's future on your
'theory'?"
I had one of those lucky moments of time-stood-still clarity, and returned
"Yes, and so are you" and went on to point out what I had never thought before
the moment. People who put their kids in school on the theory (usually
unexamined) that it's the best place for them to become successful.
At least I had really thought my "theory" through and was involved every
single day of my life, unlike this guy, whose kids were going to be in school.
<<It is hard, and it must be frustrating for those of you who have been
unschooling for years, but please bear with me.>>
Yes, but for your part could you read with the knowledge that everyone had to
step away from the school and let a lot of their own upbringing, fears, inner
voices and "knowledge" go?
<<Once the tv is on he is stuck. The house could be on fire and he
wouldn't be able to rouse himself. He is like a total zombie and
cannot talk or hear apparently when the set is on.>>
First, I don't believe it, and it's a rude thing to say and to have thought
about your child, that he could be in a burning house and not respond. Very
cold.
There are reasons children will ignore other input. My younger cousin who
had been abused and neglected, abandoned, taken away by the state and finally
came to live with us would get stuck to the TV. She didn't hear adults talk to
her, but she heard other kids. She had just heard all the adult nonsense she
could stand and didn't want to hear any more.
If he's watching something that's really interesting and you interrupt right
in the middle of a speech, you were wrong and he was right. If it's a video
or DVD, ask him to pause it. If it's a tv show, wait for the commercial. If
you have been yelling fire in the theatre just to test him, or treating him as
though your slightest utterance is more important than his near-hour
investment in a story, he might be learning to tune out in self defense. And this
might NOT apply, but I'm braving such a guess because of the disdainful words
you choose when discussing this.
If you only interrupt if it's really important, I bet he will start paying
attention to your interruptions. But otherwise, it would be like someone
picking up a book you'd been reading for a week, tearing out the last chapter and
throwing it in the fire. Or maybe just the one page you're on. You can miss
that page. If not, books have too much of a hold over you. You're a zombie.
Books should be banned from your life because when you were reading you were
ignoring the world around you.
<<Not sure if anyone
has read/heard of the book "Set Free Childhood" about television and
how it affects the brain etc. Not comfortable reading and one I
sometimes wish I hadn't read.>>
I've read three anti-TV books, but not that one.
They were all nonsense from the same source, it seemed to me.
Really.
Even when I didn't have kids to be fearful about I read one and it seemed so
trite and unscientific and based on prejudice that I was embarrassed for him.
But when prejudice abounds, people will welcome what seems like support for
their prejudice.
<<Well, obviously he's not doing the two things constantly
simultaneously. I had been limiting the tv but if I hadn't those
would be the two things he would be doing but at different times.>>
And neither of those (watching TV and playing) is a bad thing to be doing.
And if he's doing even just TWO things at the same time, you wronged him by
saying "constantly." His life should merit your honest and loving regard.
You're writing of him here in a way that suggests a lack of direct seeing of him,
himself, as the man he will be after you're gone. He's just the young
version of his whole self. He's real now. He's whole now. He's not a lump you
can insult and control and mold. He can be seen that way, but it won't create
a good relationship between you and him. It won't help you see that what he
is learning now is what he will grow up with. Please try not to have him
learn that his mom doesn't think much of him and doesn't see him clearly.
<<And
while I know playing is great I also know that people do need to
learn to read and write and be numerate and I had thought that at 7
this desire might kick in. Maybe I expect too much. >>
I think you're expecting to much and too soon.
But here's what I don't think you do know:
Reading and writing and mathematics can come from playing video games,
playing with other children, and watching TV and movies. They can come from
playing with Lego and other construction things, especially if you get books and
magazines with patterns, pictures of other people's creations with captions.
Players' guides for video games. TV schedules. Books or magazines with
information on his favorite movies or TV shows could help, but NOT if you get them and
try to make him read aloud to you. If you get them and read them TO him, or
just let him look at the photos, and then put them aside in a safe place for
him so he can come back and read them later.
Some families throw out too much stuff. Kirby has ever issue of Nintendo
Power he ever got. We bought him magazine boxes and helped him keep them in
order. He bought an index with his own money before he could even read, and would
ask me to look things up. Because of that index, he learned the notation
that is also used in much research, the Bible, Shakespeare, which is that if the
index said 15:38 it meant issue #15, page 38. That prevented the need EVER
for explaining what future notations would mean. Doesn't matter, either, that
Shakespeare notations will use Roman numerals in part, because he learned
Roman numerals from playing Mega Man.
I could ramble on, and in the course of my life I do. <g>
I know we can help you feel better about natural learning, and I know it's a
hard step to take. If you're able to, in May, there is a big home education
camp-out called HesFes in the south of England somewhere and you could look
it up on the internet, or ask on a local list if you're hooked up there
already. If you went there you would probably meet lots of families of different
persuasions.
I was lucky, before I even thought of homeschooling, to be in a babysitting
co-op/playgroup with a +/- a dozen families (once as many as 18) and four
families homeschooled. Two used structure and curriculum and rules and one poor gir
l kept being left home, losing the privilege of coming to the park to play
because she hadn't "done her math," or she would be left in the car where she
could see the kids playing but couldn't get out. Two families were
unschoolers, and I saw how close the parents were with the children, how when the
children talked the parents really listened, patiently, and happily, and that the
children WANTED to be with their parents. I wanted that for my family, so when
it became apparent that Kirby and kindergarten weren't a match, I didn't even
consider the structured way. I didn't want that animosity, that "us and them,"
that disdain.
Sandra
<< Say if in five years time he is still watching more
tv/playing on gameboy etc than I am comfortable with and he is still
not reading and writing? >>
If in five years you hadn't become more comfortable with tv and gameboy, you
wouldn't be making the progress you will need to make for unschooling to work.
<<Yes, but it's having the nerve, in my case, to sit it out while he
gets his fill. >>
Then it's not that he would play it all day, you're saying that if he didn't
make you stop worrying about TV by turning it off, you would worry all the
time. <g>
<<Say if in five years time he is still watching more
tv/playing on gameboy etc than I am comfortable with and he is still
not reading and writing? >>
I've never seen that happen.
But by "writing" you probably have something in mind that is very schoolish
(I'm guessing) and speaking as someone who has "taught writing," I know that
the idea of writing is VERY very broad and I don't know whether you're thinking
penmanship or three page essays written just because an adult (a teacher or a
nervous mother) "assigned" a child to write about something in an unnatural
fashion. Practice writing, not real writing.
It doesn't matter right now what you're thinking of as "writing," just as
long as you do start thinking that what you're thinking might need examination
and adjustment.
<<I just feel like I have this one chance at
getting his education right and if he doesn't become motivated to
learn anything I will be left with regrets and will have messed up
his future.>>
An irritating guy in a real-time scheduled online chat once asked me
(thinking to trip me up badly) "Are you willing to risk your child's future on your
'theory'?"
I had one of those lucky moments of time-stood-still clarity, and returned
"Yes, and so are you" and went on to point out what I had never thought before
the moment. People who put their kids in school on the theory (usually
unexamined) that it's the best place for them to become successful.
At least I had really thought my "theory" through and was involved every
single day of my life, unlike this guy, whose kids were going to be in school.
<<It is hard, and it must be frustrating for those of you who have been
unschooling for years, but please bear with me.>>
Yes, but for your part could you read with the knowledge that everyone had to
step away from the school and let a lot of their own upbringing, fears, inner
voices and "knowledge" go?
<<Once the tv is on he is stuck. The house could be on fire and he
wouldn't be able to rouse himself. He is like a total zombie and
cannot talk or hear apparently when the set is on.>>
First, I don't believe it, and it's a rude thing to say and to have thought
about your child, that he could be in a burning house and not respond. Very
cold.
There are reasons children will ignore other input. My younger cousin who
had been abused and neglected, abandoned, taken away by the state and finally
came to live with us would get stuck to the TV. She didn't hear adults talk to
her, but she heard other kids. She had just heard all the adult nonsense she
could stand and didn't want to hear any more.
If he's watching something that's really interesting and you interrupt right
in the middle of a speech, you were wrong and he was right. If it's a video
or DVD, ask him to pause it. If it's a tv show, wait for the commercial. If
you have been yelling fire in the theatre just to test him, or treating him as
though your slightest utterance is more important than his near-hour
investment in a story, he might be learning to tune out in self defense. And this
might NOT apply, but I'm braving such a guess because of the disdainful words
you choose when discussing this.
If you only interrupt if it's really important, I bet he will start paying
attention to your interruptions. But otherwise, it would be like someone
picking up a book you'd been reading for a week, tearing out the last chapter and
throwing it in the fire. Or maybe just the one page you're on. You can miss
that page. If not, books have too much of a hold over you. You're a zombie.
Books should be banned from your life because when you were reading you were
ignoring the world around you.
<<Not sure if anyone
has read/heard of the book "Set Free Childhood" about television and
how it affects the brain etc. Not comfortable reading and one I
sometimes wish I hadn't read.>>
I've read three anti-TV books, but not that one.
They were all nonsense from the same source, it seemed to me.
Really.
Even when I didn't have kids to be fearful about I read one and it seemed so
trite and unscientific and based on prejudice that I was embarrassed for him.
But when prejudice abounds, people will welcome what seems like support for
their prejudice.
<<Well, obviously he's not doing the two things constantly
simultaneously. I had been limiting the tv but if I hadn't those
would be the two things he would be doing but at different times.>>
And neither of those (watching TV and playing) is a bad thing to be doing.
And if he's doing even just TWO things at the same time, you wronged him by
saying "constantly." His life should merit your honest and loving regard.
You're writing of him here in a way that suggests a lack of direct seeing of him,
himself, as the man he will be after you're gone. He's just the young
version of his whole self. He's real now. He's whole now. He's not a lump you
can insult and control and mold. He can be seen that way, but it won't create
a good relationship between you and him. It won't help you see that what he
is learning now is what he will grow up with. Please try not to have him
learn that his mom doesn't think much of him and doesn't see him clearly.
<<And
while I know playing is great I also know that people do need to
learn to read and write and be numerate and I had thought that at 7
this desire might kick in. Maybe I expect too much. >>
I think you're expecting to much and too soon.
But here's what I don't think you do know:
Reading and writing and mathematics can come from playing video games,
playing with other children, and watching TV and movies. They can come from
playing with Lego and other construction things, especially if you get books and
magazines with patterns, pictures of other people's creations with captions.
Players' guides for video games. TV schedules. Books or magazines with
information on his favorite movies or TV shows could help, but NOT if you get them and
try to make him read aloud to you. If you get them and read them TO him, or
just let him look at the photos, and then put them aside in a safe place for
him so he can come back and read them later.
Some families throw out too much stuff. Kirby has ever issue of Nintendo
Power he ever got. We bought him magazine boxes and helped him keep them in
order. He bought an index with his own money before he could even read, and would
ask me to look things up. Because of that index, he learned the notation
that is also used in much research, the Bible, Shakespeare, which is that if the
index said 15:38 it meant issue #15, page 38. That prevented the need EVER
for explaining what future notations would mean. Doesn't matter, either, that
Shakespeare notations will use Roman numerals in part, because he learned
Roman numerals from playing Mega Man.
I could ramble on, and in the course of my life I do. <g>
I know we can help you feel better about natural learning, and I know it's a
hard step to take. If you're able to, in May, there is a big home education
camp-out called HesFes in the south of England somewhere and you could look
it up on the internet, or ask on a local list if you're hooked up there
already. If you went there you would probably meet lots of families of different
persuasions.
I was lucky, before I even thought of homeschooling, to be in a babysitting
co-op/playgroup with a +/- a dozen families (once as many as 18) and four
families homeschooled. Two used structure and curriculum and rules and one poor gir
l kept being left home, losing the privilege of coming to the park to play
because she hadn't "done her math," or she would be left in the car where she
could see the kids playing but couldn't get out. Two families were
unschoolers, and I saw how close the parents were with the children, how when the
children talked the parents really listened, patiently, and happily, and that the
children WANTED to be with their parents. I wanted that for my family, so when
it became apparent that Kirby and kindergarten weren't a match, I didn't even
consider the structured way. I didn't want that animosity, that "us and them,"
that disdain.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/2/2004 9:12:46 AM Central Standard Time,
cen46624@... writes:
you are ok with it or even if he isn't doing it by then you might be ok with it
even if he was.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cen46624@... writes:
> This is really two different questions. One has to do with how muchWow, that is so true. In 5yrs he could be doing the same thing but by then
> screen time he's using, and the other has to do with your comfort level.
>
you are ok with it or even if he isn't doing it by then you might be ok with it
even if he was.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Sandra,
I have debated long and hard all day about if and what I would reply to your
email.
I have lurked long enough to know that you do upset people and the "if you
want us to tell you what a wonderful mum you are then you've come to the wrong
place" reply gets trotted out if people voice any upset. I didn't want to be
told I was wonderful, you don't know me so how could you? But I didn't want to
be told I was crap either, you don't know me so how could you?
However, I could not let your post go by without a reply.
I don't have the luxury of lots of time on the computer, much less to post,
and anything I do post is written mainly off the cuff.
I appreciate I should triple check but sometimes I get to a point where I
would like help and so take the risk that my posts will be given the benefit of
the doubt. It's a tough call, seek the advice I need and write it in a hurry
and hope it's taken in the spirit it's meant or to muddle along on my own.
What particularly upset me was your response to my trying to explain how
involved my son gets when watching tv. Yes, my remark about burning houses should
have been a little more thought out.
But perhaps *you* should phrase your words a little more carefully.
Perhaps you should have a less judgemental take on what others write.
Perhaps you should walk a mile in someone's shoe, metophorically speaking,
before writing such stuff.
Perhaps you should think about how many people you turn off looking for help
because they have been so hurt by what you have written.
I have no idea if I'll ever post again, primarily because people don't appear
to be given the benefit of the doubt that what they write is not meant
literally, that they might be rushed or distracted, that words are not carefully
written so as not to upset.
No doubt you'll write a nice reply back, very eloquently put, with lots of
nifty soundbites refuting word for word everything I have said. I haven't got
the time or energy to get into it. I just wish you, like me, had thought a
little more before putting fingers to keyboard.
By the way I detest and refute the inference that my son gets so caught up in
tv because of abuse/nagging/whatever from adults. You don't know me and you
don't know him.
It's taken a lot of guts for me to post originally and to post this. I didn't
want to get into a row. I just wanted some help in finding a way to be
confident in unschooling, not to be swayed by those around me and to find peace on
my path. Sometimes I do lose sight of my son, but I wanted ways to block out
all the stuff that distracts me.
I have no idea if I will ever find any of that. Obviously if I could on my
own I wouldn't have written in the first place.
Debbie.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have debated long and hard all day about if and what I would reply to your
email.
I have lurked long enough to know that you do upset people and the "if you
want us to tell you what a wonderful mum you are then you've come to the wrong
place" reply gets trotted out if people voice any upset. I didn't want to be
told I was wonderful, you don't know me so how could you? But I didn't want to
be told I was crap either, you don't know me so how could you?
However, I could not let your post go by without a reply.
I don't have the luxury of lots of time on the computer, much less to post,
and anything I do post is written mainly off the cuff.
I appreciate I should triple check but sometimes I get to a point where I
would like help and so take the risk that my posts will be given the benefit of
the doubt. It's a tough call, seek the advice I need and write it in a hurry
and hope it's taken in the spirit it's meant or to muddle along on my own.
What particularly upset me was your response to my trying to explain how
involved my son gets when watching tv. Yes, my remark about burning houses should
have been a little more thought out.
But perhaps *you* should phrase your words a little more carefully.
Perhaps you should have a less judgemental take on what others write.
Perhaps you should walk a mile in someone's shoe, metophorically speaking,
before writing such stuff.
Perhaps you should think about how many people you turn off looking for help
because they have been so hurt by what you have written.
I have no idea if I'll ever post again, primarily because people don't appear
to be given the benefit of the doubt that what they write is not meant
literally, that they might be rushed or distracted, that words are not carefully
written so as not to upset.
No doubt you'll write a nice reply back, very eloquently put, with lots of
nifty soundbites refuting word for word everything I have said. I haven't got
the time or energy to get into it. I just wish you, like me, had thought a
little more before putting fingers to keyboard.
By the way I detest and refute the inference that my son gets so caught up in
tv because of abuse/nagging/whatever from adults. You don't know me and you
don't know him.
It's taken a lot of guts for me to post originally and to post this. I didn't
want to get into a row. I just wanted some help in finding a way to be
confident in unschooling, not to be swayed by those around me and to find peace on
my path. Sometimes I do lose sight of my son, but I wanted ways to block out
all the stuff that distracts me.
I have no idea if I will ever find any of that. Obviously if I could on my
own I wouldn't have written in the first place.
Debbie.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dawn Adams
Debbie writes about Sandra:
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>But perhaps *you* should phrase your words a little more carefully.Man, the power people give over to others. If people are turned off because of something one person posted on one list than maybe they aren't ready for unschooling because you can bet it will not be the last nor the least of the critcism they face. I found once I stopped thinking about how much a certain criticism hurt me and focused on what was in the criticism that could help me...well that's when I started to grow. Life is too short to play victim or blame others for steps not taken.
>Perhaps you should have a less judgemental take on what others write.
>Perhaps you should walk a mile in someone's shoe, metophorically speaking,
>before writing such stuff.
>Perhaps you should think about how many people you turn off looking for help
>because they have been so hurt by what you have written.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Dawn writes about Debbie:
one list. I intend to stick around because I need to glean information. But it
also doesn't mean that people cannot reply to things they don't agree with.
And how do you know that people haven't faced loads of criticism in their
home edding journey so far?
Man, there are a lot of assumptions made on this list.
Debbie.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Man, the power people give over to others. If people are turned off becauseI never said *I* was turned off because of something one person posted on
> of something one person posted on one list than maybe they aren't ready for
> unschooling because you can bet it will not be the last nor the least of the
> critcism they face. I found once I stopped thinking about how much a certain
> criticism hurt me and focused on what was in the criticism that could help
> me...well that's when I started to grow. Life is too short to play victim or
> blame others for steps not taken.
>
> Dawn (in NS)
>
one list. I intend to stick around because I need to glean information. But it
also doesn't mean that people cannot reply to things they don't agree with.
And how do you know that people haven't faced loads of criticism in their
home edding journey so far?
Man, there are a lot of assumptions made on this list.
Debbie.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
** And how do you know that people haven't faced loads of criticism in
their
home edding journey so far?**
I really want to encourage you be a little more tolerant.
**Of course** people don't know all about you and can't see you
accurately. What do you expect? It's a leap to offer suggestions based
on just a few paragraphs. Consequentially, this list can only give
fairly broad and general advice. Most all readers here can learn
something from that. Advice that is useless for you may fit someone
else's circumstances.
If you want custom tailored advice and deep perceptiveness about the
details of your particular issues, then I suggest that you pay for it.
Likely it will be quite expensive.
Betsy
their
home edding journey so far?**
I really want to encourage you be a little more tolerant.
**Of course** people don't know all about you and can't see you
accurately. What do you expect? It's a leap to offer suggestions based
on just a few paragraphs. Consequentially, this list can only give
fairly broad and general advice. Most all readers here can learn
something from that. Advice that is useless for you may fit someone
else's circumstances.
If you want custom tailored advice and deep perceptiveness about the
details of your particular issues, then I suggest that you pay for it.
Likely it will be quite expensive.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/2/04 4:00:10 PM, myrtlehogwash@... writes:
<< Perhaps you should walk a mile in someone's shoe, metophorically speaking,
before writing such stuff. >>
I have children. I went to school. I taught school. I was afraid of
unschooling. Now I'm not.
If I can change, other people can change.
People who want to unschool don't have forever to decide to do it. Their
children are getting older by the minute. The window will eventually close.
And the more schoolish teaching they do, the more they will have to undo.
<<Perhaps you should think about how many people you turn off looking for
help
because they have been so hurt by what you have written.>>
Luckily I'm not the only unschooler volunteering to help other people on my
own time then, or with the website I pay for, on the computer my husband bought
so I could do this. People have options.
<<I have no idea if I'll ever post again, primarily because people don't
appear
to be given the benefit of the doubt that what they write is not meant
literally, that they might be rushed or distracted, that words are not
carefully
written so as not to upset.>>
Words reflect thought.
If you think that way when you're rushed, it's the way you think. If you
unthinkingly, unconsciously chose those phrases to describe your child, then they
are in you, close to the surface, where others can see them and read them.
You chose the words, I just quoted them back.
Don't get angry with the mirror.
<< I haven't got the time or energy to get into it.>>
Unschooling does take time and energy. You NEED to find time and energy.
You don't need to spend it on this list if you don't want to, but without
your putting effort and time into changing, unschooling won't be a viable option
for you.
<<By the way I detest and refute the inference that my son gets so caught up
in
tv because of abuse/nagging/whatever from adults. You don't know me and you
don't know him.>>
Now many parallel situations would satisfy you that I've seen it before many
times?
<<Sometimes I do lose sight of my son, but I wanted ways to block out
all the stuff that distracts me.>>
I don't see that anything I wrote or that anyone else wrote was intended to
do anything except point you away from your blockages and directly toward your
son.
Lots of people who don't really want to unschool find someone to blame.
Sometimes it's me. Their blame doesn't make me guilty.
Here, some testimonials from people who have read here and changed their
lives:
http://sandradodd.com/list
Sandra
<< Perhaps you should walk a mile in someone's shoe, metophorically speaking,
before writing such stuff. >>
I have children. I went to school. I taught school. I was afraid of
unschooling. Now I'm not.
If I can change, other people can change.
People who want to unschool don't have forever to decide to do it. Their
children are getting older by the minute. The window will eventually close.
And the more schoolish teaching they do, the more they will have to undo.
<<Perhaps you should think about how many people you turn off looking for
help
because they have been so hurt by what you have written.>>
Luckily I'm not the only unschooler volunteering to help other people on my
own time then, or with the website I pay for, on the computer my husband bought
so I could do this. People have options.
<<I have no idea if I'll ever post again, primarily because people don't
appear
to be given the benefit of the doubt that what they write is not meant
literally, that they might be rushed or distracted, that words are not
carefully
written so as not to upset.>>
Words reflect thought.
If you think that way when you're rushed, it's the way you think. If you
unthinkingly, unconsciously chose those phrases to describe your child, then they
are in you, close to the surface, where others can see them and read them.
You chose the words, I just quoted them back.
Don't get angry with the mirror.
<< I haven't got the time or energy to get into it.>>
Unschooling does take time and energy. You NEED to find time and energy.
You don't need to spend it on this list if you don't want to, but without
your putting effort and time into changing, unschooling won't be a viable option
for you.
<<By the way I detest and refute the inference that my son gets so caught up
in
tv because of abuse/nagging/whatever from adults. You don't know me and you
don't know him.>>
Now many parallel situations would satisfy you that I've seen it before many
times?
<<Sometimes I do lose sight of my son, but I wanted ways to block out
all the stuff that distracts me.>>
I don't see that anything I wrote or that anyone else wrote was intended to
do anything except point you away from your blockages and directly toward your
son.
Lots of people who don't really want to unschool find someone to blame.
Sometimes it's me. Their blame doesn't make me guilty.
Here, some testimonials from people who have read here and changed their
lives:
http://sandradodd.com/list
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/2/04 7:01:56 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<< If you want custom tailored advice and deep perceptiveness about the
details of your particular issues, then I suggest that you pay for it.
Likely it will be quite expensive. >>
And how good will it really be?
There are some people who do phone consultation. The GWS office (which no
longer has a magazine or books, I guess) does homeschooling phone
consultation, and has for years. Someone who spoke at a conference I attended does
phone consultations. Like $60 an hour, I think.
Maybe there's someone in England doing that.
But really, only what you internalize and analyze and try out will do you any
good at all. Batting advice away because you didn't like the tone of it
sounds like you just want to keep doing what you're doing but you wanted to claim
you had investigated other methods. I'm not just guessing on this. Others
who have been similarly defensive in the past have come back and described how
they felt, and how they eventually DID think about the things they read
wherever---here, at unschooling.com, on the old AOL forum---and it started to make
sense to them.
We, people on those sources named right above have received a few dozen
apologies from people who will say "I thought you were all mean and crazy, but then
I figured out what you were talking about," or "When I first read about
unschooling it seemed neglectful nonsense, but now..."
Sandra
<< If you want custom tailored advice and deep perceptiveness about the
details of your particular issues, then I suggest that you pay for it.
Likely it will be quite expensive. >>
And how good will it really be?
There are some people who do phone consultation. The GWS office (which no
longer has a magazine or books, I guess) does homeschooling phone
consultation, and has for years. Someone who spoke at a conference I attended does
phone consultations. Like $60 an hour, I think.
Maybe there's someone in England doing that.
But really, only what you internalize and analyze and try out will do you any
good at all. Batting advice away because you didn't like the tone of it
sounds like you just want to keep doing what you're doing but you wanted to claim
you had investigated other methods. I'm not just guessing on this. Others
who have been similarly defensive in the past have come back and described how
they felt, and how they eventually DID think about the things they read
wherever---here, at unschooling.com, on the old AOL forum---and it started to make
sense to them.
We, people on those sources named right above have received a few dozen
apologies from people who will say "I thought you were all mean and crazy, but then
I figured out what you were talking about," or "When I first read about
unschooling it seemed neglectful nonsense, but now..."
Sandra
Deborah Lewis
***The problem is that I still don't feel confident or at peace with
what I'm doing, worry constantly and keep changing my approach. This
has got to change!***
There's a belief that ritual in religious practice will keep a body on
the right path - even if the mind forgets for a time where it wanted to
go. By staying on the path one will eventually end up in the desired
location. <g>
You won't get comfortable with unschooling until you're unschooling. You
have to *do* it.
You won't be confident or at peace until you really believe in natural
learning and you really trust your kids.
You can't have hold of dreams about academic achievement in one hand and
ideas about natural learning in the other and be at peace about
unschooling.
Read, absorb, live it, and trust.
***if I let him do exactly what he wants he will just watch tv
constantly.***
He really wont. He might for awhile until he finds other things he wants
to do, but he wont always and only want TV forever.
***his behaviour worsens, he gets headaches ***
You might rub his shoulders if he's been sitting for a long time. You
could bring him snacks to keep his energy up. You might watch with him
so he feels your support instead of your worry - if he's felt that, and
those things might make him more comfortable and let you feel like you're
working with him instead of against him.
***and isnt't active or using his imagination when he's stuck in front of
the box all the time.***
Can he bounce on the furniture and hop around and stand on his head? If
you have rules about not doing those things ( I know some families do)
(If you could see my furniture you'd understand we're not one of those
families<g>) you could lift them and give him more freedom to be active
while watching. For several months Dylan watched everything upside down
with his feet waving around in the air.<g>
I think TV is a wonderful for the imagination. He might be living out
all kinds of exciting things you aren't aware of. I know there are a
lot of mainstream theories about the evils of TV, but if you let go of
that and trust your kids, you'll come to all kinds of new thinking on the
subject.
***He also plays constantly, mostly with my eldest daughter. Which is
fine but I worry that he isn't learning *anything*. ***
Play is the way people learn. Some legislators are pushing for
mandatory preschool for three year olds because kids are learning so much
in those early years, and they think (among other things) they can give
them a early start. But the reason kids learn so much before they're
five is because they are free to play. After that parents start fussing
about school work and teachers start pushing reading and all at once your
bright kid who learned to walk and talk and dress himself and feed
himself, ride a bike - who can name every dinosaur found in the Hell
Creek formation and work the dvd player and master countless, challenging
video games is suddenly learning disabled, or disordered or something.
Hmmm.
Let him play.
*** Do you think parents and children have to be of a certain personality
to successfully unschool?***
Yes. Parents have to believe learning is natural and they have to trust
their kids. They have to look at their kids and see what's right about
them, not what others think might be wrong. They have to see value in
everything in life. They have to see value in their kids choices. They
have to really like their kids and want to be with them.
***I feel I've made so many mistakes, ***
Every parent feels that way. We all have things we'd change if we could.
Everyone who is unschooling now had to think about the difference between
a life with school and a life without. Most of us went to school and
have had to overcome our brainwashing and self doubt. These things
aren't unique to you. Every moment is an opportunity for you to do it
better. The next minute might be the minute you get it exactly right.
You don't have to wait until tomorrow.
I'm writing this after reading several other posts from you. I hope you
can read without it feeling personal. There probably isn't a parent here
who hasn't had to examine their thinking in certain areas in order to get
comfortable with unschooling and live more peacefully with their kids.
Deb L
what I'm doing, worry constantly and keep changing my approach. This
has got to change!***
There's a belief that ritual in religious practice will keep a body on
the right path - even if the mind forgets for a time where it wanted to
go. By staying on the path one will eventually end up in the desired
location. <g>
You won't get comfortable with unschooling until you're unschooling. You
have to *do* it.
You won't be confident or at peace until you really believe in natural
learning and you really trust your kids.
You can't have hold of dreams about academic achievement in one hand and
ideas about natural learning in the other and be at peace about
unschooling.
Read, absorb, live it, and trust.
***if I let him do exactly what he wants he will just watch tv
constantly.***
He really wont. He might for awhile until he finds other things he wants
to do, but he wont always and only want TV forever.
***his behaviour worsens, he gets headaches ***
You might rub his shoulders if he's been sitting for a long time. You
could bring him snacks to keep his energy up. You might watch with him
so he feels your support instead of your worry - if he's felt that, and
those things might make him more comfortable and let you feel like you're
working with him instead of against him.
***and isnt't active or using his imagination when he's stuck in front of
the box all the time.***
Can he bounce on the furniture and hop around and stand on his head? If
you have rules about not doing those things ( I know some families do)
(If you could see my furniture you'd understand we're not one of those
families<g>) you could lift them and give him more freedom to be active
while watching. For several months Dylan watched everything upside down
with his feet waving around in the air.<g>
I think TV is a wonderful for the imagination. He might be living out
all kinds of exciting things you aren't aware of. I know there are a
lot of mainstream theories about the evils of TV, but if you let go of
that and trust your kids, you'll come to all kinds of new thinking on the
subject.
***He also plays constantly, mostly with my eldest daughter. Which is
fine but I worry that he isn't learning *anything*. ***
Play is the way people learn. Some legislators are pushing for
mandatory preschool for three year olds because kids are learning so much
in those early years, and they think (among other things) they can give
them a early start. But the reason kids learn so much before they're
five is because they are free to play. After that parents start fussing
about school work and teachers start pushing reading and all at once your
bright kid who learned to walk and talk and dress himself and feed
himself, ride a bike - who can name every dinosaur found in the Hell
Creek formation and work the dvd player and master countless, challenging
video games is suddenly learning disabled, or disordered or something.
Hmmm.
Let him play.
*** Do you think parents and children have to be of a certain personality
to successfully unschool?***
Yes. Parents have to believe learning is natural and they have to trust
their kids. They have to look at their kids and see what's right about
them, not what others think might be wrong. They have to see value in
everything in life. They have to see value in their kids choices. They
have to really like their kids and want to be with them.
***I feel I've made so many mistakes, ***
Every parent feels that way. We all have things we'd change if we could.
Everyone who is unschooling now had to think about the difference between
a life with school and a life without. Most of us went to school and
have had to overcome our brainwashing and self doubt. These things
aren't unique to you. Every moment is an opportunity for you to do it
better. The next minute might be the minute you get it exactly right.
You don't have to wait until tomorrow.
I'm writing this after reading several other posts from you. I hope you
can read without it feeling personal. There probably isn't a parent here
who hasn't had to examine their thinking in certain areas in order to get
comfortable with unschooling and live more peacefully with their kids.
Deb L
[email protected]
In a message dated 03/02/2004 02:36:28 GMT Standard Time, SandraDodd@...
writes:
said? But I'm certainly not taking on board the "you're a cold abusive
mother" part.
That's what I want to do, sort the wheat from the chaff and it's become
mighty hard work when *everything* is analysed and I find myself embroiled in
arguments with you guys.
So now, say what you like. I really don't want to go into this any more. (And
no, not because I'm not tolerant, can't take criticism, etc but because of
time).
Debbie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> Batting advice away because you didn't like the tone of itNo, you are guessing. How do you know that I'm not digesting some of what you
> sounds like you just want to keep doing what you're doing but you wanted to
> claim
> you had investigated other methods. I'm not just guessing on this.
said? But I'm certainly not taking on board the "you're a cold abusive
mother" part.
That's what I want to do, sort the wheat from the chaff and it's become
mighty hard work when *everything* is analysed and I find myself embroiled in
arguments with you guys.
So now, say what you like. I really don't want to go into this any more. (And
no, not because I'm not tolerant, can't take criticism, etc but because of
time).
Debbie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dawn Adams
I wrote:
I never said *I* was turned off because of something one person posted on
one list. I intend to stick around because I need to glean information. But it
also doesn't mean that people cannot reply to things they don't agree with.
And how do you know that people haven't faced loads of criticism in their
home edding journey so far?
Man, there are a lot of assumptions made on this list.
Debbie.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Man, the power people give over to others. If people are turned off becauseDebbie wrote:
> of something one person posted on one list than maybe they aren't ready for
> unschooling because you can bet it will not be the last nor the least of the
> critcism they face. I found once I stopped thinking about how much a certain
> criticism hurt me and focused on what was in the criticism that could help
> me...well that's when I started to grow. Life is too short to play victim or
> blame others for steps not taken.
>
> Dawn (in NS)
>
I never said *I* was turned off because of something one person posted on
one list. I intend to stick around because I need to glean information. But it
also doesn't mean that people cannot reply to things they don't agree with.
And how do you know that people haven't faced loads of criticism in their
home edding journey so far?
Man, there are a lot of assumptions made on this list.
Debbie.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Debbie, did I ever refer just to you in my post? You made general comments (at least about people being scared off) and I responded with general comments.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
> ***his behaviour worsens, he gets headaches ***I think I suggested recently on a different thread that we need to separate
our reactions to kids' choices from our reactions to the consequences of
their choices.
We shouldn't see our purpose as preventing kids from making decisions with
bad consequences. We should see our purpose as helping them make decisions.
Not help them make the "right" (e.g., the one's we'd make) decisions, but
help them make decisions.
So a child who gets cranky and headaches from watching too much TV needs
help deciding what to do about the consequences.
What if a kid got cranky and headaches from reading all day?
(That might not be a good analogy among conventional parents. But I hope
people here would see reading all day as a good thing :-)
Would the response be to limit reading?
Or would a better response be to help him see the connection between
something that's causing a problem with him or the family and what he's
doing while reading (too inactive, a position he's frozen into or whatever).
And then come up with ways he can handle that. Maybe he'd choose to read
less at one sitting. Or move around while reading. Or set a timer. Or ask
mom to remind him to move. Or decide it was worth feeling cranky but work on
ways to not snap at family members. Or ...
Joyce