veejie72

Hi. I posted a message about sleepaway camp a while back, but some glitch must
have occurred because it never showed up.

My dd is only 8 months old, so obviously I have plenty of time to figure this out. I just
wanted to know what your opinions are on sleepaway camp, scouts, and other such
activities for unschooled kids.

Is there a special camp for unschoolers?

Is girl scouts an overtly christian organization? Because we are agnostic.

Thanks in advance,

-Vijay
SAHM in NYC to Charlotte, 8 months

p.s. I really wish I could participate more, but I just can't keep up with all of these
threads! I've got my hands full with a very spirited almost crawler, which makes it
hard. I just wanted to say how awesome this group is, and how happy I am to be able
to read from time to time, even if it's hard to find time to join in. If everyone could
please make sure that when the topic changes, so does the heading, that would really
help me.

Kelly Lenhart

>Is girl scouts an overtly christian organization? Because we are agnostic.


It can be or not, depending on the troop. But the ORGANIZATION is not and
does not discriminate on orientation or religious issues. There is also
Spiral Scouts, which is pagan. (www.spiralscouts.org)

Kelly

jrossedd

>
> Is girl scouts an overtly christian organization? Because we are
agnostic.
>

I didn't find Scouting Christian or particularly religious in any
way, but neither is it particularly unschooling-compatible, in *my*
opinion.

One of the list owners (Pam Sorooshian) is active in Girl Scouts with
her daughters and I'm sure can give you great perspective on all the
ways it CAN be, but there are built-in trappings with such a large
centralized institution and United Way agency that turned me off and
seemed schoolish if not militaristic to me.

Even when when we were able to start our own small homeschooler troop
(just three moms and three Brownies) iIt was still too official and
officious for my personal comfort -- the paperwork and forms and fees
and "assignments" and schedules were annoying and pointless to DD and
me, not to mention the emphasis on the cookie sale. (I *hate*
fundraising)

This is not to say the Scouts don't help many girls or that the
organization doesn't deserve support or that Scouts can't have fun,
only that I personally felt boxed in by it and much prefer child-led
exploration rather than Scout-led exploration. :) JJ

Lyle W.

~~This is not to say the Scouts don't help many girls or that the
organization doesn't deserve support or that Scouts can't have fun,
only that I personally felt boxed in by it and much prefer child-led
exploration rather than Scout-led exploration. :) JJ~~

Same for us with Boy Scouts. I'm sure it's a fine organization, but it just didn't 'fit' us. Way to box-like for our tastes.

Lyle


----- Original Message -----
From: "jrossedd" <jrossedd@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:24:09 -0000
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Wanting opinions on scouts, camp, etc.

> >
> > Is girl scouts an overtly christian organization? Because we are
> agnostic.
> >
>
> I didn't find Scouting Christian or particularly religious in any
> way, but neither is it particularly unschooling-compatible, in *my*
> opinion.
>
> One of the list owners (Pam Sorooshian) is active in Girl Scouts with
> her daughters and I'm sure can give you great perspective on all the
> ways it CAN be, but there are built-in trappings with such a large
> centralized institution and United Way agency that turned me off and
> seemed schoolish if not militaristic to me.
>
> Even when when we were able to start our own small homeschooler troop
> (just three moms and three Brownies) iIt was still too official and
> officious for my personal comfort -- the paperwork and forms and fees
> and "assignments" and schedules were annoying and pointless to DD and
> me, not to mention the emphasis on the cookie sale. (I *hate*
> fundraising)
>
> This is not to say the Scouts don't help many girls or that the
> organization doesn't deserve support or that Scouts can't have fun,
> only that I personally felt boxed in by it and much prefer child-led
> exploration rather than Scout-led exploration. :) JJ
>



***Always remember, Lead By Example***

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[email protected]

In a message dated 1/21/2004 2:35:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
berryhead@... writes:
>>Is girl scouts an overtly christian organization? Because we are agnostic. <
<
*********************************
I don't think girlscouts is very Christian at all. It's very inclusive, lots
of "world" type stuff (make the world a better place, get along with everyone
type stuff). I was a leader for a while when my oldest (now 20) was in 1st
grade. Not a bad organization, but I hated the whole cookie thing. The troop
barely got anything...money went to the cookie company and girl scout
higher-ups. I never felt that was right. But they do have a lot of cool stuff to
earn badges.

Boyscouts, on the other hand, is a very Christian organization. At least the
pack our boys were in (for a whole 9 months) was. I signed them up thinking
"OK, 2 meetings per month, I can deal with that." Ha ha ha ha ha. THey all
have to be in different groups (by grade), so I was going at least twice a
WEEK...plus fund raisers, pancake breakfasts, community service work,
campouts,...it consumes your life!

We have happily settled on 4H. Our meetings are twice a month, all the kids
are in the same group (no division by grades), the camps are great, everything
is cheap, no uniforms to deal with, fundraisers are stuff like carwashes or
bake sales (our group is a dance group so we get paid for dancing at festivals
and such). It is not just a farm club...there are probably around 200
different projects to choose from...anything from small motors, to computers, to
animals, to cooking, to artwork. Plus they can enter their projects in the local
fairs, everyone gets a ribbon...I can't say enough good about it. We're
really happy with it.

One more thing..when I was little we were in Campfire Girls. (I believe it's
now Campfire Boys and Girls) and it has sort of the same outline as
girlscouts or boyscouts, but I think it's much more relaxed. They are not all over the
country though, unfortunately.

Nancy B. in WV


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

arcarpenter2003

--- In [email protected], "Kelly Lenhart"
<mina@m...> wrote:
>>There is also
Spiral Scouts, which is pagan. (www.spiralscouts.org)


Cool -- thanks so much for the tip, Kelly!

Peace,
Amy

Robyn Coburn

<<It can be or not, depending on the troop. But the ORGANIZATION is not and
does not discriminate on orientation or religious issues. There is also
Spiral Scouts, which is pagan. ( HYPERLINK
"http://www.spiralscouts.org/"www.spiralscouts.org )>>

They are not exactly ubiquitous, although being only 4 years old would
account for that.

In the last Life Learning magazine there was an ad for Earth Scouts.

HYPERLINK
"http://www.earthchartersummits.org/EarthScouts.htm"http://www.earthcharters
ummits.org/EarthScouts.htm

This is another very new ecology based scouting type organization. I have no
personal experience with it, just passing on the 411.

What about 4H instead of scouting? One of the mothers in my local group runs
a 4H chapter (terminology?). It seems like the activities are very top down
structured � which is great if that is what you want. So far Jayn definitely
likes to be in charge of her own time and activities. I guess each chapter
will have totally different activities, partly depending on locality (very
little animal husbandry in the urban group run locally)

Thinking back to my own meager experience as a Girl Guide (in Australia) and
reading the �about us� links to some of these organizations, they are seem
all about �teaching principles�. They seem structured basically like a
classroom, albeit a liberal one, with leaders (teachers) and very much
directed discussions. Aren�t we already living/modeling the principles that
these folks want to instill but without the external rewards (badges) or
leader directed play? I feel like it will be redundant for Jayn.

One part of Spiral Scouts was talking about parents and children having the
opportunity to connect. I don�t think we have a need that they will fill
just now. As a learning resource for spiritual or ecological issues, I�m not
sure this kind of group would be our first �go to�. If there were no local
homeschool group for Jayn to meet new friends, then yes possibly. I suspect
that the personality of the various leaders would be key to the experience.

Anyone want to read about my disastrous experience at Girl Guide camp? If so
read on:

When I went to camp, in ancient canvas teepee shaped tents, at the age of
12, it was with many girls I had never seen before. Naturally I ended up in
the �screw-ups� group. After struggling for an extra long time to erect the
thing, we failed to dig a trench around our tent (who knew?) so when it
poured torrentially that afternoon much of our luggage got wet, and the
interior of our tent (no groundsheets provided) was muddy. We were supposed
to gather sticks to make all kinds of fabulous furniture pieces including
luggage racks, following the line drawings in our books, but ours were
rickety to be charitable. Neither I, nor my clueless mother, had any notion
of what was right to bring. I had regular bedding, not a sleeping bag, and
no air mattress � I think I was the only girl without an air mattress. Since
my bedding was on the ground it was totally soaked. I was absolutely
freezing that night, and boy was the ground hard. My mother insisted,
because of my age, that I take along a large package of (clearly marked)
kotex pads, just in case I started menses during the trip. Thank goodness
that at least was spared me. However I was teased unmercifully for having
the package � so much for camaraderie and kindness. Of course the steak
designated as mine was the one that fell on the ground � they didn�t tell me
that it had, until I was wondering aloud why it was gritty. We went on hikes
each day. I was fat and not athletic. It was tiring. I wanted to sit down.
Oh there�s a nice mound. I�ll sit there for a moment. Ants� nest. Red ants.
I want to go home. At least my bedding has dried, but the ground is still
hard. I vaguely remember competitive activities like scavenger hunts and
trail following, which my tent was not shining at. I think I was not good at
that stuff � bugs scared me. I also remember feeling better when I finally
had the chance to wash my hair in the river, then sitting on a log and
combing it. It was long and in good condition, and the sun was finally out.
I have never been camping since. One day my husband is going to take us � we
are going to have a really, really high quality tent with all the zips and
flaps, and aero beds � and bug repellant.

Robyn L. Coburn


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa M. Cottrell Bentley

> Is girl scouts an overtly christian organization? Because we are agnostic.

I've been a Girl Scout leader for almost 3 years now. I looked into a
variety of organizations before becoming a GS Leader, as my daughter really
wanted to be in a club of some type. Really check out all your options.
There is Roots & Shoots, 4H, Camp Fire Boys & Girls, and many others. My
daughter didn't like any except Girl Scouts, but several were nice (and you
can always change!). We are involved in an all age homeschooling group,
plus we have lots of friends that we communicate with often. Zoe never had
time to just be with a group of girls similar in age to herself and she
wanted this time with no boys (her choice, but it limited the club choices).
After trying out several troops, I quickly realized that the only way my
daughter could have the freedom that she needs was to become The main Leader
of her troop. So, I did the training, and here we are.

Our troop currently has 4 regular girls (all homeschoolers). 2 just dropped
out. Our troop is very Unschooling friendly. The girls plan the majority
of the meetings (the ones that they don't plan, they "plan" to have me
plan!), vote on outings (from a list of their collected ideas), really
everything. We haven't done anything as a troop that they majority of the
girls didn't want to do (and it is always an option for each girl that
doesn't like something to not do it). As the Leader, it is my
responsibility to gather supplies, etc. in order to make sure that they get
to do what they've planned (e.g. gather paper and scissors if we are doing
origami). There are certain things that really are more fun to do with a
group of kids, rather than alone. We do those things. We have meetings
every other week and usually two outings every month.

I understand about not liking cookie selling. The official word on cookies
is that you do NOT have to sell them. You are encouraged to if you've asked
for fee support (i.e. you couldn't afford to pay for the $10/year membership
fee). And, even then, you've officially sold cookies if you sell ONE box.
Even as a vegan (all the cookies are vegetarian, but none are vegan), my
daughter sells over 100 boxes to relatives and next door neighbors that come
to us looking for someone to buy cookies from. They all know that Zoe is a
Girl Scout and they'd rather buy from her than a cookie booth.

As for religion, the Girl Scout organization is definitely NOT a Christian
organization. This confuses a lot of people, because the word "God" is in
the Girl Scout Promise and the girls are to learn the Promise. The official
stance (check out the http://www.girlscouts.org for more details) is that
the girls can say any word in replacement of the word "God" that they
believe in. There is one girl in our troop that says "Nature", one that
says nothing, and the others say "God". There are, however, troops that
are religiously based, but they are their own thing.

-Lisa in AZ
cottrellbentley@...

[email protected]

> Is girl scouts an overtly Christian organization? Because we are
agnostic.
+++++++++++++++
I didn't find Scouting Christian or particularly religious in any way, but
neither is it particularly unschooling-compatible, in *my* opinion.
++++++++++++++++
I share the same complaints as the others ~ I didn't like the *have tos* that
came with a troop (fundraising especially). As a family, we have eradicated
the word TRY (gotta love Yoda!) but it appears in all of the GS propaganda,
ick! *I* was the only member of my family to get a sick feeling from honoring
God and Country and the mandatory Pledge of Allegiance (if they actually
*talked about* what that pledge means and allowed kids the *choice* instead of rote
memorization, I would feel a *bit* better!).
We're a UU family, and the UUA is beginning their own co-ed scouting group,
for all faiths, called Navigators USA (www.navigatorsusa.org). I find this
religion to be the spiritual equivalent to unschooling ~ our Sunday School is
called *religious exploration* ~ and I think the troops can easily be
*unscouting.* <bg> This group came out of the conflict between Boy Scouts and our first
principle (no dogma in this church!) of the inherent worth and dignity of
every single human being.
I've also heard great things about spiral scouts and the campfire
organization. I don't have any experience with sleep away camps yet, but already my kids
(7&5) know that different places have different expectations and limitations ~
if the camp is FUN enough, they'll put up with the unschooly parts of it <g>

diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
"Argue your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours" ~ Messiah handbook
(Illusions by Richard Bach)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/21/2004 8:35:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Is girl scouts an overtly christian organization? Because we are agnostic.
*****************************
Girl Scouts is a secular organization, although some troops are run out of
religious schools, etc., and they may not be secular.

Also, just in case anyone doesn't know, Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are not
connected in any way organizationally, and have entirely different policies.
Girl Scouts do not discriminate on the basis of religion or sexual orientation as
Boy Scouts do.

Kathryn


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Jan 21, 2004, at 10:24 AM, jrossedd wrote:

> One of the list owners (Pam Sorooshian) is active in Girl Scouts with
> her daughters and I'm sure can give you great perspective on all the
> ways it CAN be,

Girl Scouts is not Christian, it is a worldwide organization and
supports whatever beliefs a girl's family has.

My girls have always been involved in Girl Scouts and I was a leader
for years. Rosie is still in a troop and has a really good time - they
do a lot of crafts and a lot of service projects together. Nice kids,
nice leader.

But there are a lot of rules when attending large Girl Scout events -
there tends to be a lot of herding large groups of girls around and
doing superficial activities.

If I had it to do over again, I'd have gotten involved in 4H from the
beginning - I find it extremely unschooling compatible.

-pam
National Home Education Network
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