[email protected]

Someone wrote to me on the side and asked
-=-How much "freedom" do you really want?-=-

I want the freedom to be with my children as they grow up with out school or
schooling. Thanks for several factors, I have that freedom, and I guard it.

I want the freedom to learn more in the way I want to learn it. Not everyone
can provide that to me, but I have been thankful to find it over the years
from La Leche League leaders, other moms, friends who've had children before or
along with me, and generous strangers (some of whom because friends) who
helped me by writing articles in GWS and HEM and online, helping me clarify and
purify what I was doing and thinking with Kirby, when he was little, when we
thought Kirby would need to be homeschooled, but Marty would probably like school
and want to go.

I want the freedom to share what I have learned with other unschoolers.
Thanks to e-mail and the internet, I have that freedom.

I want the freedom to ask people to keep their voices down in my house when
my kids are sleeping late because they stayed up reading and playing and
writing to their friends. Due to my own insistence, I have that freedom.

I really like that I have the freedom not to invite people into my home if I
don't want them there. I like that when someone is in my home and starts
being difficult or offensive I can ask him to leave.

I like the freedom yahoogroups offers for just anybody to start an e-mail
list there. I have a few, and am on several more. I've been on some that were
temporary, and some that died out, and some that have lasted years and years.

I like the freedom of assembly which I've exercised many stated and
advertised in advance. I like it when people are peaceable and cooperative in those
meetings. I would NOT like it if someone followed me out after I left such a
meeting and accosted me in an alley.

That's what it feels like when someone writes me a hateful kind of attack on
the side because I've expressed my honest feelings on a list which has a
stated and advertised purpose. On a list on which over half a dozen people
cooperatively designed a set of guidelines, I was singled out privately and insulted.

I want the freedom to live my private e-mail life in peace. Is that asking
for too much freedom?

Here, without a paragraph that might identify the person, is my response to
my attacker. The quotes are the whole post, barring that identifying bit, and
the other paragraphs are my responses of earlier today:

=========

<< I know that you are some sort of unschooling icon, published books,
founded a website, etc. but I have to wonder by your postings if you have let your
own "expertness" take over. >>

I haven't published a book. Anyone can have a website.
I've never tried to make anyone listen to me. Some do and some don't.
I've listened to others, too. I learned about unschooling from a couple of
La Leche League leaders whose kids were not in school. I learned a lot from
people online, then, when Kirby was five and six.

<<Yes, I just rejoined the group a few days ago, but I had been a member
with a different email address some time ago. I just wondered why you feel the
need to control what other adults say when your philosophy with your own and
others children seems to be one of unlimited ideas and freedom of expression? >>

I don't like these kinds of discussions off the list. I would much prefer
to have them ON the list, because my purpose with my volunteer time is to help
lots of other people understand that they don't have to teach their children
for them to learn, and they don't have to control their children for them to
"be good."

<<It's possible to be just as narrowminded in the name of unschooling as in
anything else.>>

Focussed. I am focussed on unschooling. If yo'ure not, why is what I do any
concern of yours?

<<Apparently, you feel that "warnings are put there to justify limiting and
controlling children", and that's wrong, but for adults to express their own
opinions they should "read a while longer, maybe read in the archives, maybe
read at www.unschooling.com (the message boards there). With such a large list,
moderators sometimes don't catch all the too-new posters".>>

"Apparently?" I'm involved with several other people in keeping a VERY large
list functioning and useful.

If you go to yahoogroups.com there are clear directions for creating a
yahoogroup. If you want to create your own and run it the way you're sure we should
be running this one, it would be no problem for you to list it and invite
people to join, not ony on this list but at www.unschooling.com.

Maybe we're not "doing it right." We're not keeping you from doing it
better. But we (Joyce, Pam Sorooshian and our half dozen moderators, all
volunteers) are doing what we think is the best use of our volunteer time.

If not everyone is happy, some are. If what we're saying or the way we're
saying it isn't helping you or your family, that might be more about you and
your family than about what we're saying.

<<[deleted identifying info] I found www.unschooling.com right away, and have
been on the path to unschooling most of that time [several years]. >>

I've been unschooling for twelve and a half years without getting off the
path. Maybe that's why I'm entirely confident, and you call it "smug."

I'll discuss some of the other questions on the list.

Sandra
-------------end of quoted e-mail--------


It's a big world. There are lots of e-mail lists and websites. Take what
you need and leave the rest.

Sandra

eaglefalconlark

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> Someone wrote to me on the side and asked
> -=-How much "freedom" do you really want?-=-

Maybe I don't understand what this person meant to ask, as there's
no context provided. But by itself, it's a really odd question.
Doesn't *everybody* want to be as free as possible?

Linda

Deborah Lewis

***Maybe we're not "doing it right." We're not keeping you from doing it

better. But we (Joyce, Pam Sorooshian and our half dozen moderators, all

volunteers) are doing what we think is the best use of our volunteer
time.***

I've been on and off this list in the past. I left for a few months
several years ago because a few posters were so consistently and
abundantly offering terrible unschooling advice I couldn't take it.
Many experienced unschoolers who were offering good advice left at that
time too, and it couldn't have been good for new people looking for
inspiring, life changing information.

I've seen a lot of people join thinking this was a support list, thinking
they could get sympathy here because they have lazy, mean brats and
what's a mother to do? I've see the disruption to the list that follows
and I've seen new people join during those terrible disruptions and leave
again without ever knowing that in the good moments this list offers the
very best unschooling advice available.

What we have today is better. People are asked to wait a couple of weeks
before posting so that they can see if the list is going to meet *their*
needs. Someone who wants to spank and shame their kids and who doesn't
want to change won't have their needs met on this list and it's better
for the 1300 plus other members if that someone can find it out by
reading quietly. We expect people are smart to understand the purpose
of this list from the introduction but if not, the safety net is the
suggestion to wait two weeks. If a new member is still not mindful
enough to understand the purpose of the list, how much time away from our
kids should we spend trying to unravel the wreckage of a derailed list?

How much freedom do I want? I want the freedom tell neurotic, insecure,
mean moms, who only want to defend their thoughtless parenting and offer
terrible unschooling advice to go start their own list.

Deb L

Deborah Lewis

***We expect people are smart to understand the purpose of this list from
the introduction ***

Woops.

Should have been smart *enough*.
It'd be nice if people were smart enough to get the thought out clearly
the first time... sheesh.

Deb L, slinking off

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/21/2004 2:03:19 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

OK, Sandra did not write this, she posted it from a private email sent to
her.....


> <<Apparently, you feel that "warnings are put there to justify limiting and
>
> controlling children", and that's wrong, but for adults to express their own
>
> opinions they should "read a while longer, maybe read in the archives, maybe
>
> read at www.unschooling.com (the message boards there). With such a large
> list,
> moderators sometimes don't catch all the too-new posters".>>
>

If I may I'd like to make a comment here as I am fairly new to this list, I
am not new to yahoo lists or hs lists though and as many people even on this
list who know me know I post pretty regular on other lists. I guess my comment
kind of encompasses this list and the always learning list since I have been
reading both for the last few weeks.

First I would like to say that I personally think that Sandra shows great
restraint and compassion in her posts, this is not a yippee, jump on the Sandra
guru wagon endorsement, I am not that kind of person. I think the posts I have
read so far have been very considerate of peoples feelings. Sometimes though
people might think that anyone who disagrees with them is being mean, that is
not the case.

I think taking the time to read over time is a good idea especially with
threads that might shake the foundations of our beliefs. That is not to say we
have to change what we believe, we don't, we don't even have to respond to the
posts, in fact no one has to know we even read them, LOL. But, one might find in
reading and thinking that even their own beliefs become clearer for them.

It is one thing to believe in something, anything be it a religion or a way
of learning or a way of eating but to truly own it I think it helps to know why
we believe it. Over the years it has been the challenging discussions that I
have been in here on the yahoo lists that have helped me to see more clearly
just exactly who I am. I won't even pretend it was easy, in fact it often took
a lot of guts to stay in the discussion. I think those of us who were/are
willing to keep the talking going help a great many others to clarify what they
believe also. Not everyone has the constitution to handle conflict, it can be
scary. Lots of people read and never post but they stay so something is
happening.

And sometimes I just sit and read and then I think and read some more. The
nice thing is I can grow as a person and enjoy it, I can post it here or not,
it's my choice.

Hmm, did I go change paths mid post?
LOL
Laura


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[email protected]

In a message dated 1/21/04 2:17:56 PM, eaglefalconlark@... writes:

<< Maybe I don't understand what this person meant to ask, as there's

no context provided. But by itself, it's a really odd question.

Doesn't *everybody* want to be as free as possible?

>>

She wanted to be free to write anything she wanted on this list, I think, and
free to get only praise and approval.

I don't think it's "freedom" for other people to come where I'm already doing
something and do something else against my protests. If I go into someone
else's home or to their party or onto their list and disregard what they want
done or what their limitations or plans or guidelines are, I'm not exercising my
freedom. I'm invading theirs.

Language is imperfect. "Freedom" operates within agreed-to limitations.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/21/04 2:57:24 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< I've seen a lot of people join thinking this was a support list, thinking
they could get sympathy here because they have lazy, mean brats and
what's a mother to do? >>

I want to clarify what I think Deb meant, for the benefit of newer members.
If I screw this up, Deb will need to clarify what she thinks I meant. <g>

Some people come for "support" in their assumption that they're doing the
right things, but their children just won't cooperate. They want us to tell them
how to make their children do their work, do their chores, stop fighting,
turn off the TV and eat good food. They sometimes seem to want us to tell them
150 soothing things, like "OOOh, you're such a good mother, you work so hard,
your kids are lucky to have you, isn't it hard to be a mom? Kids are awful,
just tell them you work your butt off for them, and they need to appreciate you!"

That's not what they hear here. They might hear "Go watch TV with them.
Make them more fun food. Forget waxing your wood floor and expecting it to stay
that way; you have kids! Lighten up. Don't be a martyr. Yes you SHOULD
learn the names of the characters on your kids' favorite shows."

Sometimes they hear "Get up and go hang out with your kids instead of with
us, because it won't get better until you can be with them and relax and really
hear what they're doing, and what they're interested in, and give them so much
attention they don't want any more. THEN they will stop acting out. They
need MORE attention and love, not less."

I don't think Deb was suggesting that people with lazy mean brats want us to
support them. I think (guessing <g>) she means there are not so many lazy
mean brats when/if people will look at their children in a more attentive,
respectful way, but some moms don't come here to learn how to be more attentive and
respectful, and they resent the suggestion that they're NOT already being as
attentive and respectful as their children need or deserve.

Sandra

Deborah Lewis

***I don't think Deb was suggesting that people with lazy mean brats want
us to
support them.***

Yes, what you said. I was too lazy to write it all out. <G>

I've never seen a lazy kid. I have seen kids who shut down because their
mom's were nagging, pushy, manipulative, nothing-will-ever-be-good-enough
parents and sometimes the only escape from that when you're little is
depression and withdrawal.

If someone comes to a list like this of their own free will, on purpose,
asking what to do about family problems; If they're fouling up the
chance of a good and happy life with their kids and can't stand to hear
someone say "you could be nicer," I'm not going to hold their hand and
say "good mom".

The intro to this list seems pretty plain to me. It doesn't say come in
and be coddled.

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/21/04 5:51:40 PM, BonKnit@... writes:

<< Hmm, did I go change paths mid post? >>

Paths have to go somewhere, or they're no good! <g>

And paths without options to go left or right, up or down, are pretty boring.
Just ruts.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/21/04 6:41:34 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< If someone comes to a list like this of their own free will, on purpose,
asking what to do about family problems; If they're fouling up the
chance of a good and happy life with their kids and can't stand to hear
someone say "you could be nicer," I'm not going to hold their hand and
say "good mom". >>

It seems I'm not either. <g>

It seems clearly to show an adversarial relationship at home when a mom comes
here and gets angry at us because we took her kids' side against her.

What's hard to express to people who are rigid and defensive and want the
help they think they want (other help they define as "no help at all"), is that
if their kids are happy, they will be happier too. If any one person in the
family can become calmer and more pleasant, the rest of the people's lives are
instantly calmer and more pleasant too *UNLESS* they're all in competition and
in the habit of defining their happiness by someone else's unhappiness.

In those cases, unschooling isn't going to fix their problem. They have
worse problems than just how to help their kids learn to read.

One of the saddest things I've ever heard that didn't involve blood and
maiming was that subtly-maiming thing some parents do, where they express pleasure
that their child is unhappy. "Serves him right," or "That will teach him," or
"We'll see how staying home a month without the phone affects her attitude."

When they say it standing right next to me and I can kind of feel their
negativity in a physical way, it's revolting. I thought of that when I was writing
ideas about siblings not getting along. If I'm sitting really close to a kid
sometimes I can sense their mood change before they express it verbally. And
I remembered being up close to strident, self-righteous, mean parents
sometimes and how truly sorry I felt for their children.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/22/2004 12:23:34 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> "Serves him right," or "That will teach him," or
> "We'll see how staying home a month without the phone affects her attitude."
>

I briefly joined a tough-love type online group a while back while looking
for a better way to deal with my older kids. I was so appalled by the way they
dealt with their kids I had to leave the list. I found it sad.
Laura


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