Linda and Liza
[email protected]
Hello,
<info regarding birthing laws and regulations on the internet.>
For all states you can do a search for NY Birth Laws, or any state. I did some searches through Yahoo Search and seemed to come up with some good resources. According to what I've found, a parent's right to have a homebirth is legal in all states except I believe CA. Apparently there is a law stating that a woman is not considered mentally sane during pregnancy and therefore is not able to make proper judgements about her care, so if a problem arose, they can prosecute her. The legality of midwifery assisted homebirths and care differs from state to state.
One place to try is Citizens for Midwifery www.cfmidwifery.org/
This has a breakdown for all states.
For NY, I found one site that had links for The Rights of Childbearing Woman in NY, A Patients Bill of Rights (AHA-American Hospital Association), and Your Rights as a Hospital Patient in New York. These cover all your legal rights. They also have a lot of information about VBAC. The address is: http://vbac.com/patientrights.html
<I am reading a book right now called Hard Labor by Susan Diamond>
Sounds like a great book, I'll have to check it out.
<the laws that protect insurance companies. As you must already know, ESCbC was put out of business because no insurance company would cover their practice>
I heard about this, the CNM I work with told me they wanted $1 million dollars for a million in coverage. Maternity careproviders and centers, including hospitals are facing this problem in many states. Some smaller hospitals have closed down their maternity wards and many OB's have stopped attending births and restricted their care to GYN and prenatal care only as well. This is the same reason that the Englewood Birth Center shut down too.
<Now we have no independent working birth centers in Manhattan. It's a terrible loss.>
I agree. The loss of ES Birth Center and the one in Englewood, NJ has put woman in a position that really limits their options. While I was doing some searches, I came across a discussion board of a women who discovered a birth center (probably hospital based, but it did not say) in Brooklyn. It was called the Brooklyn Birthing Center, do you know anything about it? She was planning on having 2nd child, a VBAC waterbirth there. The messages were between dated Dec. 2003-Jan. 2004. I don't know much about them, but I'm sure they are worth looking into for anyone looking for options in the city. There is a wonderful doula group located in the city. They used to run programs out of ESBC. They are called the Metropolitan Doula Group and I believe they have a website or a yahoogroup or something. They would be good place to go to find info about birthing options in NYC.
<hospital but we've been treated so horridly in the past that not even dead I'd want to go in there.>
I've heard many of the hospitals are high tech and not mother friendly. There are at least 2 hospitals in the city that doulas will not work out of anymore because they are tired of the terrible treatment women are receiving there.
What I suggest you do is write a letter of complaint to the head of maternity about your experience and how you will not use their facility again because of it. Quite often woman who have been mistreated by a facility get home and try to just put the experience behind them. If each woman would send letters of complaint, letting the appropriate person know that they will not choose to use them again, or even why they would not choose to use them in the first place, changes in policies will happen. Once the facility realizes just how much business they are losing because of their policies, they will definately reconsider them.
<I know of no insurance that covers a homebirth>
Many insurance companies cover CPMs, CMs, and CNMs state wide for their services despite where they provide them, my last was partially covered by Oxford. They covered only 70% because I went out of network and I had to pay the rest out of pocket. When you have a hospital or Birth Center Birth, the insurance company has to pay the careprovider their fee, and the hospital a separate fee. Unlike hospital births, just the careprovider needs coverage in a homebirth, since your place of birth is your home, it doesn't cost you anything. If for some reason you need to be transported, you will still be covered as your care will be turned over to your midwife's back-up Physician. In this event, the OB will bill the insurance company, and pay your midwife a reduced fee that has been worked out in their practice agreement. Insurance companies, to the best of my knowledge, do not cover lay midwives, but a few are beginning to cover certified doulas now. If your with an insurance company that does not cover midwives, I would write them a letter.
<Was this birthing center in NY?>
No. It was the one that use to be in Englewood, NY.
<Because I was given a legal document stating how the center could not perform a first-time VBAC. I could have any child at a birthing center after a successful VBAC but not right after a cesarean.>
This is because of the ACOG Practice Bulletin # 5, July 1999. They stated, "Because uterine rupture may be catastrophic, VBAC should be attempted in institutions equipped to respond to emergencies with physicians immediately available to provide emergency care."
It is not NY law. The above statement and the entire bulletin has impacted VBAC birth options in the US. Many hospitals, OBs and birth centers have changed policies regarding VBAC, because ACOG is their governing body and going against their recommendation opens them up to liability. If they do not comply with the current evidence coming from ACOG (there governing body)and something goes wrong, they risk losing their license to practice and malpractice lawsuits.
This does not however mean that ACOG's statements are balanced, they tend to lean on the very cautious side of new evidence. To view a critique of the ACOG bulletin on VBAC by Marsden Wagner, MD He is a neonatologist and perinatal epidemiologist who was responsible for maternal and child health in the European Regional Office of the World Health Organization for 14 years. Now living in Washington, D.C., he travels the world talking about appropriate uses of technology in birth and utilizing midwives for the best outcome, go to: http://www.ican-online.org/resources/white_papers/wp_acog.htm
<Because I was given a legal document stating how the center could not perform a first-time VBAC. I could have any child at a birthing center after a successful VBAC but not right after a cesarean.>
If you can find a copy of this document, I'd love to see it. Would you mind getting one to me? That is if you can find it, if not don't worry. I tend the think that the document probably spoke about their own legal position in providing services. According to NY law midwives have to be licensed by the state and have one or more signed practice agreements with a consulting physician(s) in order to legally practice. The physicians backing up the birthing center, influenced by the ACOG bulletin regarding VBAC and the growing issues with obtaining reasonable malpractice insurance, could have stipulated in their practice agreement with the center midwives, that the Center could not attend first VBACs after C. This would then make it illegal by law for them to attend your VBAC at the center or anywhere for that matter, as doing so would mean they breached their practice agreement with their consulting physician(s) and are providing services out of their legal scope of practice. That's what I meant by the statement;
It's nice to know your in the city, I'm about an hour N of you. I'm planning on going to the New Victory theatre in March to see Moby Dick and I will also be making a trip to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in April with other homeschoolers. I love visiting.
I could go on and on and on and I'd definately like to talk some more, but being that nature of this subject is OT, I feel maybe it would be better if I do so outside the group. I know the moderators are trying very hard to keep the energy of this wonderful (and very large) group in a particular direction. So out of respect for the nature of the group and guilt for cluttering up everyone's inboxes with my lengthy replies, I invite anyone and everyone who wants to continue this thread or who may have other thoughts or questions to contact me privately at rpofwarwick@... As you can tell, I'd be glad to keep babbling. :)
Warmly,
Regina
<info regarding birthing laws and regulations on the internet.>
For all states you can do a search for NY Birth Laws, or any state. I did some searches through Yahoo Search and seemed to come up with some good resources. According to what I've found, a parent's right to have a homebirth is legal in all states except I believe CA. Apparently there is a law stating that a woman is not considered mentally sane during pregnancy and therefore is not able to make proper judgements about her care, so if a problem arose, they can prosecute her. The legality of midwifery assisted homebirths and care differs from state to state.
One place to try is Citizens for Midwifery www.cfmidwifery.org/
This has a breakdown for all states.
For NY, I found one site that had links for The Rights of Childbearing Woman in NY, A Patients Bill of Rights (AHA-American Hospital Association), and Your Rights as a Hospital Patient in New York. These cover all your legal rights. They also have a lot of information about VBAC. The address is: http://vbac.com/patientrights.html
<I am reading a book right now called Hard Labor by Susan Diamond>
Sounds like a great book, I'll have to check it out.
<the laws that protect insurance companies. As you must already know, ESCbC was put out of business because no insurance company would cover their practice>
I heard about this, the CNM I work with told me they wanted $1 million dollars for a million in coverage. Maternity careproviders and centers, including hospitals are facing this problem in many states. Some smaller hospitals have closed down their maternity wards and many OB's have stopped attending births and restricted their care to GYN and prenatal care only as well. This is the same reason that the Englewood Birth Center shut down too.
<Now we have no independent working birth centers in Manhattan. It's a terrible loss.>
I agree. The loss of ES Birth Center and the one in Englewood, NJ has put woman in a position that really limits their options. While I was doing some searches, I came across a discussion board of a women who discovered a birth center (probably hospital based, but it did not say) in Brooklyn. It was called the Brooklyn Birthing Center, do you know anything about it? She was planning on having 2nd child, a VBAC waterbirth there. The messages were between dated Dec. 2003-Jan. 2004. I don't know much about them, but I'm sure they are worth looking into for anyone looking for options in the city. There is a wonderful doula group located in the city. They used to run programs out of ESBC. They are called the Metropolitan Doula Group and I believe they have a website or a yahoogroup or something. They would be good place to go to find info about birthing options in NYC.
<hospital but we've been treated so horridly in the past that not even dead I'd want to go in there.>
I've heard many of the hospitals are high tech and not mother friendly. There are at least 2 hospitals in the city that doulas will not work out of anymore because they are tired of the terrible treatment women are receiving there.
What I suggest you do is write a letter of complaint to the head of maternity about your experience and how you will not use their facility again because of it. Quite often woman who have been mistreated by a facility get home and try to just put the experience behind them. If each woman would send letters of complaint, letting the appropriate person know that they will not choose to use them again, or even why they would not choose to use them in the first place, changes in policies will happen. Once the facility realizes just how much business they are losing because of their policies, they will definately reconsider them.
<I know of no insurance that covers a homebirth>
Many insurance companies cover CPMs, CMs, and CNMs state wide for their services despite where they provide them, my last was partially covered by Oxford. They covered only 70% because I went out of network and I had to pay the rest out of pocket. When you have a hospital or Birth Center Birth, the insurance company has to pay the careprovider their fee, and the hospital a separate fee. Unlike hospital births, just the careprovider needs coverage in a homebirth, since your place of birth is your home, it doesn't cost you anything. If for some reason you need to be transported, you will still be covered as your care will be turned over to your midwife's back-up Physician. In this event, the OB will bill the insurance company, and pay your midwife a reduced fee that has been worked out in their practice agreement. Insurance companies, to the best of my knowledge, do not cover lay midwives, but a few are beginning to cover certified doulas now. If your with an insurance company that does not cover midwives, I would write them a letter.
<Was this birthing center in NY?>
No. It was the one that use to be in Englewood, NY.
<Because I was given a legal document stating how the center could not perform a first-time VBAC. I could have any child at a birthing center after a successful VBAC but not right after a cesarean.>
This is because of the ACOG Practice Bulletin # 5, July 1999. They stated, "Because uterine rupture may be catastrophic, VBAC should be attempted in institutions equipped to respond to emergencies with physicians immediately available to provide emergency care."
It is not NY law. The above statement and the entire bulletin has impacted VBAC birth options in the US. Many hospitals, OBs and birth centers have changed policies regarding VBAC, because ACOG is their governing body and going against their recommendation opens them up to liability. If they do not comply with the current evidence coming from ACOG (there governing body)and something goes wrong, they risk losing their license to practice and malpractice lawsuits.
This does not however mean that ACOG's statements are balanced, they tend to lean on the very cautious side of new evidence. To view a critique of the ACOG bulletin on VBAC by Marsden Wagner, MD He is a neonatologist and perinatal epidemiologist who was responsible for maternal and child health in the European Regional Office of the World Health Organization for 14 years. Now living in Washington, D.C., he travels the world talking about appropriate uses of technology in birth and utilizing midwives for the best outcome, go to: http://www.ican-online.org/resources/white_papers/wp_acog.htm
<Because I was given a legal document stating how the center could not perform a first-time VBAC. I could have any child at a birthing center after a successful VBAC but not right after a cesarean.>
If you can find a copy of this document, I'd love to see it. Would you mind getting one to me? That is if you can find it, if not don't worry. I tend the think that the document probably spoke about their own legal position in providing services. According to NY law midwives have to be licensed by the state and have one or more signed practice agreements with a consulting physician(s) in order to legally practice. The physicians backing up the birthing center, influenced by the ACOG bulletin regarding VBAC and the growing issues with obtaining reasonable malpractice insurance, could have stipulated in their practice agreement with the center midwives, that the Center could not attend first VBACs after C. This would then make it illegal by law for them to attend your VBAC at the center or anywhere for that matter, as doing so would mean they breached their practice agreement with their consulting physician(s) and are providing services out of their legal scope of practice. That's what I meant by the statement;
> There is not a specific state law denying you this as a choice (at least not directly).<The ability for a midwife to attend VBAC's, breech births, etc... depends on their practice agreement. The one's I work with have been able to find some wonderful physician's who allow them quite a bit of freedom.
It's nice to know your in the city, I'm about an hour N of you. I'm planning on going to the New Victory theatre in March to see Moby Dick and I will also be making a trip to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in April with other homeschoolers. I love visiting.
I could go on and on and on and I'd definately like to talk some more, but being that nature of this subject is OT, I feel maybe it would be better if I do so outside the group. I know the moderators are trying very hard to keep the energy of this wonderful (and very large) group in a particular direction. So out of respect for the nature of the group and guilt for cluttering up everyone's inboxes with my lengthy replies, I invite anyone and everyone who wants to continue this thread or who may have other thoughts or questions to contact me privately at rpofwarwick@... As you can tell, I'd be glad to keep babbling. :)
Warmly,
Regina
pam sorooshian
On Jan 18, 2004, at 2:42 AM, rpofwarwick@... wrote:
legal in California with a licensed midwife, certified nurse midwife,
or doctor attending.
Unattended homebirths - not specifically illegal, but if things go
wrong there can be legal issues.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> According to what I've found, a parent's right to have a homebirth isLicensed Midwifery Practice Act of 1993: homebirth is specifically
> legal in all states except I believe CA.
> According to what I've found, a parent's right to have a homebirth is
> legal in all states except I believe CA.
legal in California with a licensed midwife, certified nurse midwife,
or doctor attending.
Unattended homebirths - not specifically illegal, but if things go
wrong there can be legal issues.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
liza sabater
On Sunday, January 18, 2004, at 05:42 AM, rpofwarwick@... wrote:
homeschooling regulations. they are not law but because the regulation
is practiced consistently, if you are taken to court you can be held
liable for breaking the 'law'. the hospital's wording was misleading
but, again, unless you have an unlimited budget to fight these things
in court, you have to treat the document as the law.
i appreciate your comments but you seem to miss a point i am trying to
make. having choice on any level of parenting is considered a high risk
activity in NY state. NY is not a liberal state. it is a rather
controlling, bordering on the fascistic state that imposes many
regulations AS LAW on everything from how you are to give birth, care
for your body and even die. i find very upsetting to read the NY State
Consolidated Laws because they are so restrictive.
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?cl=0
i don't think this opic is off on the issue of schooling/unschooling.
our present situation does not allow us to pick up and go, but believe
me, we will when we can. there is no law against unschooling in NY but
by how the ed law and homeschooling regulations are written, if pushed
by an unscrupulous prosecutor, it could be regarded as unlawful. i just
received the IHIP packets and their asking for book lists, attendance
records, the name of the curriculum we'll be using. now in NYC all the
districts are sending out these forms. technically, i should not be
filling out forms BUT because now the districts have agreed to send
these out, the day will come when it will be considered unlawful not to
fill them all out --especially when we as unschoolers do not have
lesson plans or curricula to follow. so i've been pondering now for 2
weeks whether to fill them out or do something else. these are not the
clear cut decisions that many people make them to be. when you are
dealing with the possibility of having your privacy invaded by a court,
there are many things to weigh in before mindlessly filling out papers
or mindlessly reacting to what you don't like. i learned a lot during
my pregnancy with Aidan and my stay with the midwives. there was
NOTHING mindless about the decisions we made. we were very clear about
what the options and compromises we were going to have to put up with
if things where not going "our way".
not the first woman to tear --that is the risk of birthing. i really
don't understand why people would even think that there is no risk
involved in birthing. there is. that's what one has to accept when
getting pregnant.
so i want to go on record as saying that i had a positive experience
with the midwives at Elizabeth Seton Childbirthing Center. they were
not manipulative or anything that you would like to tag on them. i am
actually getting quite upset that you're trying to paint them in a
negative light. they were an incredible group of women who had to
overcome a lot of obstacles because they wanted to have as little
medical intrusion as possible in their practice.
the issue here is not ESCbC. the Consolidated Laws of NY are the core
of the problem and the power of hospitals and insurance companies. it
is not a coincidence that after the UFT (the teachers union) the most
powerful union in the city is the hospital workers union. we are
talking about two groups that have claimed control over the bodies and
minds of the citizens of this city. think about that one. due to the
hierarchical nature of our society, the professionals involved in
health and education are basically laying claim to other people's
bodies and minds.
l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> It is not NY law.the regulation is treated like law. it is the same with the
homeschooling regulations. they are not law but because the regulation
is practiced consistently, if you are taken to court you can be held
liable for breaking the 'law'. the hospital's wording was misleading
but, again, unless you have an unlimited budget to fight these things
in court, you have to treat the document as the law.
i appreciate your comments but you seem to miss a point i am trying to
make. having choice on any level of parenting is considered a high risk
activity in NY state. NY is not a liberal state. it is a rather
controlling, bordering on the fascistic state that imposes many
regulations AS LAW on everything from how you are to give birth, care
for your body and even die. i find very upsetting to read the NY State
Consolidated Laws because they are so restrictive.
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?cl=0
i don't think this opic is off on the issue of schooling/unschooling.
our present situation does not allow us to pick up and go, but believe
me, we will when we can. there is no law against unschooling in NY but
by how the ed law and homeschooling regulations are written, if pushed
by an unscrupulous prosecutor, it could be regarded as unlawful. i just
received the IHIP packets and their asking for book lists, attendance
records, the name of the curriculum we'll be using. now in NYC all the
districts are sending out these forms. technically, i should not be
filling out forms BUT because now the districts have agreed to send
these out, the day will come when it will be considered unlawful not to
fill them all out --especially when we as unschoolers do not have
lesson plans or curricula to follow. so i've been pondering now for 2
weeks whether to fill them out or do something else. these are not the
clear cut decisions that many people make them to be. when you are
dealing with the possibility of having your privacy invaded by a court,
there are many things to weigh in before mindlessly filling out papers
or mindlessly reacting to what you don't like. i learned a lot during
my pregnancy with Aidan and my stay with the midwives. there was
NOTHING mindless about the decisions we made. we were very clear about
what the options and compromises we were going to have to put up with
if things where not going "our way".
> What I suggest you do is write a letter of complaint to the head ofwhy? i had what i consider a good experience with Aidan's birth. i am
> maternity about your experience and how you will not use their
> facility again because of it.
not the first woman to tear --that is the risk of birthing. i really
don't understand why people would even think that there is no risk
involved in birthing. there is. that's what one has to accept when
getting pregnant.
so i want to go on record as saying that i had a positive experience
with the midwives at Elizabeth Seton Childbirthing Center. they were
not manipulative or anything that you would like to tag on them. i am
actually getting quite upset that you're trying to paint them in a
negative light. they were an incredible group of women who had to
overcome a lot of obstacles because they wanted to have as little
medical intrusion as possible in their practice.
the issue here is not ESCbC. the Consolidated Laws of NY are the core
of the problem and the power of hospitals and insurance companies. it
is not a coincidence that after the UFT (the teachers union) the most
powerful union in the city is the hospital workers union. we are
talking about two groups that have claimed control over the bodies and
minds of the citizens of this city. think about that one. due to the
hierarchical nature of our society, the professionals involved in
health and education are basically laying claim to other people's
bodies and minds.
l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lenhart
>i i justI totally understand what you are saying, and you are right. And I would
>received the IHIP packets and their asking for book lists, attendance
>records, the name of the curriculum we'll be using. now in NYC all the
>districts are sending out these forms. technically, i should not be
>filling out forms BUT because now the districts have agreed to send
>these out, the day will come when it will be considered unlawful not to
>fill them all out --especially when we as unschoolers do not have
>lesson plans or curricula to follow. so i've been pondering now for 2
>weeks whether to fill them out or do something else. these are not the
>clear cut decisions that many people make them to be. when you are
>dealing with the possibility of having your privacy invaded by a court,
>there are many things to weigh in before mindlessly filling out papers
>or mindlessly reacting to what you don't like.
say that now is the time to not fill them out. Now, before years go by when
people treat them as having the force of law is to act as if they are not.
Every person who does that little bit more than they need to makes it that
much harder for those who come after. We refused to sign a consent for our
kids medical records for CYF about the dirty house stuff. The complaint
wasn't about abuse, so they had no need of it. And it would violate the
kids' privacy without THEIR permission. I had to do a little explaining,
but maybe next time, the next parent won't have to. It was a risk, but it
was a matter of principle.
Kelly