living la vida buena
Tim & Jennifer Johnson
Hello all,
Some of you may know me (Tim Johnson) or more likely my wife Jennifer as
she is the one that usually reads the hundreds of unschooling related posts
on the various mailing lists we are on. I want to talk a little about
ourselves first and then make a plea later. Even if we were not unschoolers
we would still be thought of as a little odd. Most recently we sold our
home and took off down the road this last spring. The reasons we sold our
home and began this latest phase in our life are because we no longer wanted
to live in square homes on grid-iron streets, unconnected to our neighbors,
and from nature itself. While driving around in a 1967 VW bus may not be
the perfect answer to our needs it was better than paying a mortgage to live
a life that we thought of as unfulfilling. The money is better spent on gas
at least for now. But this is already off of the topic, I do that a lot.
In many ways unschooling was as much about us learning as it was for our
children, when you begin to question the necessity of one thing suddenly
other things which you thought you could never do without seen trivial.
This includes stud-frame houses, supermarkets, cities, and still more that I
don't want to hit you with right now at the sake of sounding like a wacko.
Shortly after we made to choice to allow our children to pursue their
education we discovered Earthships www.earthship.org and we decided to rent
one on a vacation we took to New Mexico. Do you know how when a dam starts
to break (not a real one just the one you make out of sand at the beach) and
when the water starts to trickle through the whole wall will soon fall, that
was what it felt like after being in the earthship, we started on the design
of our own non-polluting, off-grid home, we are still working on a design.
After the earthships we began looking into alternative diets, something more
in tune with what the planet can sustain, more veggies, more whole foods,
less processed, less packaging. When you realize that it is not the makers
of the product that is polluting the land but the people who buy from them
and keep them in business then you realize where the blame should lie, I
could not and can not allow myself to be the bad guy. Later we joined a
local vegetarian society, actually we just started going to meals, so that
we could learn how to cook a more sustainable diet. Of course if I didn't
mention a certain person here I would be leaving out an important piece of
the puzzle, my wife's friend Linda. In many ways more radical than us, I
think less so in others, she introduced us to much that has shaped our
family. Non-violent communication, unending patience, her
non-confrontational way of dealing with situations in many ways still leaves
me slack-jawed. My wife and Linda were like those Asian birds of prey that
lock talons and spin toward the earth to see who would let go first, any
idea the one had the other would add energy to it and build it stronger. I
don't know if you have ever had someone like that in your life but it is
rare. Sadly Linda is no longer in our life, I'm sure I could hazard a
reason as to why but without her input it would be lacking. Anyway here we
are on the road traveling and we found that we missed having a positive
influence and someone to talk with. So, with an intentional communities
directory in hand www.ic.org we decided to visit communities to see if any
of these fit. Well we have traveled 10000 miles so far and visited almost a
dozen communities and none of them are quite right, usually what is wrong
revolves around our children, we are very particular about them and their
environment. So, here we are, visiting family for the winter (with
satellite internet) and I said to my wife what if I asked the unschooling
internet community if anyone was willing to set up a community of
unschoolers (I'm thinking something loosely like summerhill) and other
people wanting to be more normal in the way they live their lives. I'm
thinking that we don't have to worry about getting the kids out of school at
least for the most part, and one parent usually is not tied to a job, and
best of all they have open minds. Well we don't have land yet so there is
no location, and we at least are highly flexible (obviously if we can sell
everything and travel full-time with our three children). I'm personally
interested in a more primitive (aka native) existence, but the beauty of
community is that we can be as involved with each other as is comfortable.
If anyone is interested please write us back, if anything I said rings true
with something that you are thinking please write, if anyone is interested
in a better life please write back.
The Johnsons
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Some of you may know me (Tim Johnson) or more likely my wife Jennifer as
she is the one that usually reads the hundreds of unschooling related posts
on the various mailing lists we are on. I want to talk a little about
ourselves first and then make a plea later. Even if we were not unschoolers
we would still be thought of as a little odd. Most recently we sold our
home and took off down the road this last spring. The reasons we sold our
home and began this latest phase in our life are because we no longer wanted
to live in square homes on grid-iron streets, unconnected to our neighbors,
and from nature itself. While driving around in a 1967 VW bus may not be
the perfect answer to our needs it was better than paying a mortgage to live
a life that we thought of as unfulfilling. The money is better spent on gas
at least for now. But this is already off of the topic, I do that a lot.
In many ways unschooling was as much about us learning as it was for our
children, when you begin to question the necessity of one thing suddenly
other things which you thought you could never do without seen trivial.
This includes stud-frame houses, supermarkets, cities, and still more that I
don't want to hit you with right now at the sake of sounding like a wacko.
Shortly after we made to choice to allow our children to pursue their
education we discovered Earthships www.earthship.org and we decided to rent
one on a vacation we took to New Mexico. Do you know how when a dam starts
to break (not a real one just the one you make out of sand at the beach) and
when the water starts to trickle through the whole wall will soon fall, that
was what it felt like after being in the earthship, we started on the design
of our own non-polluting, off-grid home, we are still working on a design.
After the earthships we began looking into alternative diets, something more
in tune with what the planet can sustain, more veggies, more whole foods,
less processed, less packaging. When you realize that it is not the makers
of the product that is polluting the land but the people who buy from them
and keep them in business then you realize where the blame should lie, I
could not and can not allow myself to be the bad guy. Later we joined a
local vegetarian society, actually we just started going to meals, so that
we could learn how to cook a more sustainable diet. Of course if I didn't
mention a certain person here I would be leaving out an important piece of
the puzzle, my wife's friend Linda. In many ways more radical than us, I
think less so in others, she introduced us to much that has shaped our
family. Non-violent communication, unending patience, her
non-confrontational way of dealing with situations in many ways still leaves
me slack-jawed. My wife and Linda were like those Asian birds of prey that
lock talons and spin toward the earth to see who would let go first, any
idea the one had the other would add energy to it and build it stronger. I
don't know if you have ever had someone like that in your life but it is
rare. Sadly Linda is no longer in our life, I'm sure I could hazard a
reason as to why but without her input it would be lacking. Anyway here we
are on the road traveling and we found that we missed having a positive
influence and someone to talk with. So, with an intentional communities
directory in hand www.ic.org we decided to visit communities to see if any
of these fit. Well we have traveled 10000 miles so far and visited almost a
dozen communities and none of them are quite right, usually what is wrong
revolves around our children, we are very particular about them and their
environment. So, here we are, visiting family for the winter (with
satellite internet) and I said to my wife what if I asked the unschooling
internet community if anyone was willing to set up a community of
unschoolers (I'm thinking something loosely like summerhill) and other
people wanting to be more normal in the way they live their lives. I'm
thinking that we don't have to worry about getting the kids out of school at
least for the most part, and one parent usually is not tied to a job, and
best of all they have open minds. Well we don't have land yet so there is
no location, and we at least are highly flexible (obviously if we can sell
everything and travel full-time with our three children). I'm personally
interested in a more primitive (aka native) existence, but the beauty of
community is that we can be as involved with each other as is comfortable.
If anyone is interested please write us back, if anything I said rings true
with something that you are thinking please write, if anyone is interested
in a better life please write back.
The Johnsons
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amy McCormick
I thought this post was very interesting. I know an unschooler (whose children are grown now) who bought property with another unschooling family when their children were young, and they together became a family. I know it was very successful for them. The concept itself has a certain appeal. I wonder how many homeschoolers/unschoolers are forming this kind of symbiotic relationship.
<<The reasons we sold our home and began this latest phase in our life are because we no longer wanted to live in square homes on grid-iron streets, unconnected to our neighbors,and from nature itself. >>
I completely agree with this. We used to live in the Washington, D.C. area, with accordingly high-stress jobs and lots of time spent commuting. We made a conscious decision to sell our house and move to Vermont, specifically right on Lake Champlain, to be closer to nature and give our daughter and any other children in our lives (and US) a more simple, back-to-nature, joyful life. I work from home now, and my husband works retail (that's what's available here locally) -- our income dropped to 25% of what we had earned previously. The idea of just selling the house and travelling is VERY appealing to me, but I cannot overcome practicality and adding to our retirement plans, etc., to make the leap that you have. I find it FASCINATING, however, and would love to hear more about how you reached this conclusion in terms of practical steps - retirement, insurance, etc.
<<In many ways unschooling was as much about us learning as it was for our
children, when you begin to question the necessity of one thing suddenly
other things which you thought you could never do without seen trivial.>>
I strongly agree. This is exactly the transformation we made. BUT - How do you remain true to your convictions when friends are busy accumulating and building bigger houses to hold the bumf? My daughter is beginning to notice one friend's huge house and "wants to be rich, too," even though WE probably have more money on paper than the "rich" friends (no debt, nice retirement accounts). We discuss different types of being "rich," which helps, but the "I wants" seem to be a congenital defect of our species. :)
Also, how will you manage subsistence crops, if you are traveling? (You mention not wanting to use supermarkets.) I think you mean when you do find land? This is something -- well, not at a subsistence level, I have to admit -- something I am interested in doing more with but am intimidated by. I dabble in gardening, but when it comes to pest control, etc., I become overwhelmed. I guess i just need to throw myself into it and use trial and error; I need to gain some confidence.
<<After the earthships we began looking into alternative diets, something more
in tune with what the planet can sustain, more veggies, more whole foods,
less processed, less packaging.>>
Wonderful! We were macrobiotic for years due to health reasons, now mellowing a bit to mostly vegetarian. But our main staple is still short grain brown rice. Meat is a condiment in our diet, not "what's for diner." Have you read "Diet for a New America"? If not, I highly recommend it. You'll be high on whole foods by the end.
I get the idea of what an "intentional community" is like, but I'll check out the web site too. Thanks for the site address. You mention that you are particular about the environment for your children (he**, yes!); what about these communities is objectionable? I am picturing a commune type of environment, but this is completely out of my own ignorance.
I checked out Summerhill School, which is I think what you are referring to. Here is a quick quote from the web site:
"Summerhill School is unique. Itis a progressive, co-educational, residential school... Summerhill is first and foremost a placewhere children can be free. There are two features of theschool which visitors usually single out as being particularlyunusual. The first is that all lessons are optional. A schoolwhich compelled its pupils to go to lessons would be, at best, atravesty of freedom>>
It goes on to mention that there are something like 80 kids currently. I think this sounds interesting and I'll be reading more on the web site. I personally believe that when people get together in groups that large there is a group mentality, the subject of which there have been scientific studies and "in the field" examples. (Remember the person screaming for help on a New York street and tens of people drawing their drapes against the sound, thinking someone else would help? No one did. Unless someone asks I won't go on with the shock experiments that were done to try to understand Hitler and his followers atrocities.) I realize this might be an extreme comparison and with little causality between them (a nonsequitor, as it were), but I personally tend to withdraw from any kind of learning environment that is that large. I think things tend to veer off the needs of the individual when that happens. I suppose I need more information; I'll continue looking at the Summerhill site.
<<Best of all they have open minds.>>
<< I'm personally interested in a more primitive (aka native) existence, but the beauty of
community is that we can be as involved with each other as is comfortable.>>
There's open-minded and then there's open-minded. :) I consider myself open-minded, but I won't be going to a nudist colony or supporting partner-swapping! This is very tongue-in-cheek -- I just started to go, "whoa..." when I read the above. :) I really am just asking you to define your term, "open minds" and "native" existence.
<<If anyone is interested please write us back, if anything I said rings true
with something that you are thinking please write, if anyone is interested
in a better life please write back.>>
MUCH of what you say rings true for us. We have made major changes in our life similar to your beginnings, it sounds like, but your beginning became our end -- for now. We have actually considered the sell-everything-and-travel option; we haven't been willing to accept all that that would entail, however. I am very curious, if you are willing to share, how this has affected long-term plans for retirement income, insurance, etc. and I mentioned above, How does one get around these practical things? Of course, if one lives simply, the retirement income "rules" do not quite apply, but I would love to hear about how someone who has thought it all through has gotten around/sees through all of that FEAR.
Best wishes to you and yours,
A m y
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
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Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<The reasons we sold our home and began this latest phase in our life are because we no longer wanted to live in square homes on grid-iron streets, unconnected to our neighbors,and from nature itself. >>
I completely agree with this. We used to live in the Washington, D.C. area, with accordingly high-stress jobs and lots of time spent commuting. We made a conscious decision to sell our house and move to Vermont, specifically right on Lake Champlain, to be closer to nature and give our daughter and any other children in our lives (and US) a more simple, back-to-nature, joyful life. I work from home now, and my husband works retail (that's what's available here locally) -- our income dropped to 25% of what we had earned previously. The idea of just selling the house and travelling is VERY appealing to me, but I cannot overcome practicality and adding to our retirement plans, etc., to make the leap that you have. I find it FASCINATING, however, and would love to hear more about how you reached this conclusion in terms of practical steps - retirement, insurance, etc.
<<In many ways unschooling was as much about us learning as it was for our
children, when you begin to question the necessity of one thing suddenly
other things which you thought you could never do without seen trivial.>>
I strongly agree. This is exactly the transformation we made. BUT - How do you remain true to your convictions when friends are busy accumulating and building bigger houses to hold the bumf? My daughter is beginning to notice one friend's huge house and "wants to be rich, too," even though WE probably have more money on paper than the "rich" friends (no debt, nice retirement accounts). We discuss different types of being "rich," which helps, but the "I wants" seem to be a congenital defect of our species. :)
Also, how will you manage subsistence crops, if you are traveling? (You mention not wanting to use supermarkets.) I think you mean when you do find land? This is something -- well, not at a subsistence level, I have to admit -- something I am interested in doing more with but am intimidated by. I dabble in gardening, but when it comes to pest control, etc., I become overwhelmed. I guess i just need to throw myself into it and use trial and error; I need to gain some confidence.
<<After the earthships we began looking into alternative diets, something more
in tune with what the planet can sustain, more veggies, more whole foods,
less processed, less packaging.>>
Wonderful! We were macrobiotic for years due to health reasons, now mellowing a bit to mostly vegetarian. But our main staple is still short grain brown rice. Meat is a condiment in our diet, not "what's for diner." Have you read "Diet for a New America"? If not, I highly recommend it. You'll be high on whole foods by the end.
I get the idea of what an "intentional community" is like, but I'll check out the web site too. Thanks for the site address. You mention that you are particular about the environment for your children (he**, yes!); what about these communities is objectionable? I am picturing a commune type of environment, but this is completely out of my own ignorance.
I checked out Summerhill School, which is I think what you are referring to. Here is a quick quote from the web site:
"Summerhill School is unique. Itis a progressive, co-educational, residential school... Summerhill is first and foremost a placewhere children can be free. There are two features of theschool which visitors usually single out as being particularlyunusual. The first is that all lessons are optional. A schoolwhich compelled its pupils to go to lessons would be, at best, atravesty of freedom>>
It goes on to mention that there are something like 80 kids currently. I think this sounds interesting and I'll be reading more on the web site. I personally believe that when people get together in groups that large there is a group mentality, the subject of which there have been scientific studies and "in the field" examples. (Remember the person screaming for help on a New York street and tens of people drawing their drapes against the sound, thinking someone else would help? No one did. Unless someone asks I won't go on with the shock experiments that were done to try to understand Hitler and his followers atrocities.) I realize this might be an extreme comparison and with little causality between them (a nonsequitor, as it were), but I personally tend to withdraw from any kind of learning environment that is that large. I think things tend to veer off the needs of the individual when that happens. I suppose I need more information; I'll continue looking at the Summerhill site.
<<Best of all they have open minds.>>
<< I'm personally interested in a more primitive (aka native) existence, but the beauty of
community is that we can be as involved with each other as is comfortable.>>
There's open-minded and then there's open-minded. :) I consider myself open-minded, but I won't be going to a nudist colony or supporting partner-swapping! This is very tongue-in-cheek -- I just started to go, "whoa..." when I read the above. :) I really am just asking you to define your term, "open minds" and "native" existence.
<<If anyone is interested please write us back, if anything I said rings true
with something that you are thinking please write, if anyone is interested
in a better life please write back.>>
MUCH of what you say rings true for us. We have made major changes in our life similar to your beginnings, it sounds like, but your beginning became our end -- for now. We have actually considered the sell-everything-and-travel option; we haven't been willing to accept all that that would entail, however. I am very curious, if you are willing to share, how this has affected long-term plans for retirement income, insurance, etc. and I mentioned above, How does one get around these practical things? Of course, if one lives simply, the retirement income "rules" do not quite apply, but I would love to hear about how someone who has thought it all through has gotten around/sees through all of that FEAR.
Best wishes to you and yours,
A m y
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/18/04 9:54:26 AM, cottagevt@... writes:
<< We discuss different types of being "rich," which helps, but the "I wants"
seem to be a congenital defect of our species. :) >>
If people didn't naturally want to improve their surroundings, nobody would
want to "get back to nature" or live differently than those around them.
Every advance, discovery, bit of art, and experiment seem to come from the natural
human need to see if they can't do a little more or a little better that day.
If people accomplish what they think they want to do to be happy, that
unsettled curiosity and desire is still in them.
And by "people" I mean the people we admire and reward and emulate.
There are people who wake up and don't want more and don't care about
maintenance of what they have. That's not considered to be good by many people at
all, though it cam be handy if they're in a nursing home or a hospital, for them
to be quiet and content. It's helpful if they're in poverty on the outskirts
of some giant city living in a tin hut.
-=-Also, how will you manage subsistence crops, if you are traveling? (You
mention not wanting to use supermarkets.) I think you mean when you do find
land? -=-
The original poster mentioned New Mexico. People can't even begin to
maintain themselves in New Mexico unless they're near the river, with irrigation,
and they have a greenhouse, and they concentrate on food production.
-=- if anything I said rings true
with something that you are thinking please write, if anyone is interested
in a better life please write back-=-
Hooking up with people who are discontented with life as it is has happened
throughout the ages, but unless a group has a leader and then followers who are
willing to ignore their own preferences and go with the leader's, it tends
not to be a group at all, nor for long. One person's definition of "a better
life" is as unlikely to match another person's (unless they are both following
the philosophy of the same absent philosopher/leader/fantasy writer) as for
them both to get jackpots sitting next to each other at a casino.
One's "better" might involve American Indian religion (which is very
different from tribe to tribe and much of which cannot/does not translate outside the
group anyway) and another's might involved vegetarianism, and another might
not want to limit clothing choices and another thinks only natural fibers should
be worn.
Anyone interested in communal living probably already has looked into the
causes and successes and failures of communes of the past, whether voluntary or
government created, and seen what bases could maintain one for a while and what
problems arise.
Those problems will be seen to be the desire of people to have "the 'I
wants'," and often the "want" is just for more freedom of movement or choice than
the group is set up to allow.
Unless people have a common family, language, background and possibly
religion, it will be hard for them to feel they are living in a natural human culture
(because they won't be), and they will be, to some extent, playing at
culture. Playing community, until it's not fun anymore.
I'm not against playing.
Some people don't think about culture and government when they want two or
eight families to bind together even for one growing season.
There were lots of hippie communes and situations in northern New Mexico when
I was in my teens and twenties. The very few that are left are
religion-based, and didn't begin as hippie communes, but as retreats for study and worship.
The "communities" now are more along the lines of food co-ops and extended
families that still live in nuclear-family situations but get together for
holidays. And most involved someone with a lot of money to get land/building
started, and the person with the lot of money ends up with more power.
Some things you can't get away from. Even if you left the planet, someone's
vision of the new community would need to prevail. Someone payed for the jet
fuel to get you pat gravity, and someone was smart enough to figure out how to
land and survive.
Sandra
<< We discuss different types of being "rich," which helps, but the "I wants"
seem to be a congenital defect of our species. :) >>
If people didn't naturally want to improve their surroundings, nobody would
want to "get back to nature" or live differently than those around them.
Every advance, discovery, bit of art, and experiment seem to come from the natural
human need to see if they can't do a little more or a little better that day.
If people accomplish what they think they want to do to be happy, that
unsettled curiosity and desire is still in them.
And by "people" I mean the people we admire and reward and emulate.
There are people who wake up and don't want more and don't care about
maintenance of what they have. That's not considered to be good by many people at
all, though it cam be handy if they're in a nursing home or a hospital, for them
to be quiet and content. It's helpful if they're in poverty on the outskirts
of some giant city living in a tin hut.
-=-Also, how will you manage subsistence crops, if you are traveling? (You
mention not wanting to use supermarkets.) I think you mean when you do find
land? -=-
The original poster mentioned New Mexico. People can't even begin to
maintain themselves in New Mexico unless they're near the river, with irrigation,
and they have a greenhouse, and they concentrate on food production.
-=- if anything I said rings true
with something that you are thinking please write, if anyone is interested
in a better life please write back-=-
Hooking up with people who are discontented with life as it is has happened
throughout the ages, but unless a group has a leader and then followers who are
willing to ignore their own preferences and go with the leader's, it tends
not to be a group at all, nor for long. One person's definition of "a better
life" is as unlikely to match another person's (unless they are both following
the philosophy of the same absent philosopher/leader/fantasy writer) as for
them both to get jackpots sitting next to each other at a casino.
One's "better" might involve American Indian religion (which is very
different from tribe to tribe and much of which cannot/does not translate outside the
group anyway) and another's might involved vegetarianism, and another might
not want to limit clothing choices and another thinks only natural fibers should
be worn.
Anyone interested in communal living probably already has looked into the
causes and successes and failures of communes of the past, whether voluntary or
government created, and seen what bases could maintain one for a while and what
problems arise.
Those problems will be seen to be the desire of people to have "the 'I
wants'," and often the "want" is just for more freedom of movement or choice than
the group is set up to allow.
Unless people have a common family, language, background and possibly
religion, it will be hard for them to feel they are living in a natural human culture
(because they won't be), and they will be, to some extent, playing at
culture. Playing community, until it's not fun anymore.
I'm not against playing.
Some people don't think about culture and government when they want two or
eight families to bind together even for one growing season.
There were lots of hippie communes and situations in northern New Mexico when
I was in my teens and twenties. The very few that are left are
religion-based, and didn't begin as hippie communes, but as retreats for study and worship.
The "communities" now are more along the lines of food co-ops and extended
families that still live in nuclear-family situations but get together for
holidays. And most involved someone with a lot of money to get land/building
started, and the person with the lot of money ends up with more power.
Some things you can't get away from. Even if you left the planet, someone's
vision of the new community would need to prevail. Someone payed for the jet
fuel to get you pat gravity, and someone was smart enough to figure out how to
land and survive.
Sandra
Tim & Jennifer Johnson
Hi Amy, we have been in search of community for about a year now. Not
desperately, but in our travels, if we knew of one down the road, we made an
attempt to check it out. Some communities had a focus of interpersonal
relationships, which I am all for, but not to the detriment of my
surroundings. We are very much into alternative building and off-grid
lifestyles, and some of the communities we looked into just didn't factor
those issues into their lives. We have now limited our search to
eco-villages, generally. I did find a community which I fell in love with
in North Carolina, but their membership fees were extremely high, and were
required before even becoming a member. It would have depleted our savings,
and left no room to build nor create a home business. We would again be in
the trap of having a mortgage, and the emotions that coincide with that
venture.
As far as what we would want to share, people are not included. I have even
read of one community that shares the children. When you join the
community, you relinquish your "ownership" for severe lack of a better word,
and all the children become everyone's children. Very different from our
culture, and I don't know how well I would do at that. By sharing things i
meant meals, stories, laughter, books, gardens, farm animals (for milk,
eggs, and meat), toys, games, arts, music, tools, appliances, and vehicles.
This would necessitate a common space for these activities. I imagine a
central common area surrounded loosely by private accommodations.
You have mentioned money and savings. personally, the sale of our home gave
us a little next egg which we dip into to travel. I suppose that we will
use whatever is left to sustain us as we search, and subsequently join a
community. We intend to build a cob house, so that will be dirt cheap, but
the systems will require some capital. As for retirement, that would depend
on what type of community you join. Many communities have home based
businesses, large enough to support many in the community, or small enough
to support only one family, and saving for retirement in these situations
would work the same as in a small business. Some communities pool all
resources, and provide all members with health care, lodging, and a stipend
for their entire membership. This is very reassuring to those with no
initial savings, but can be frustrating for members who eventually wish to
leave but have little monetarily to show for their efforts while at the
community. Some offer a combination of the above. it depends on what you
want. Personally, I will probably seek out the first option, but, depending
on the group of people, I may consider an income sharing type of scenario.
I know that Stephen Gaskin of The Farm is developing an assisted living
facility on the community, where older people who have no family, or older
members can live out their lives in peace with the extended family of
community to support them. I don't know the logistics, but it is definitely
an interesting concept, and needed too, as the Farm enters it's third decade
of existence.
I thought this post was very interesting. I know an unschooler (whose
children are grown now) who bought property with another unschooling family
when their children were young, and they together became a family. I know
it was very successful for them. The concept itself has a certain appeal.
I wonder how many homeschoolers/unschoolers are forming this kind of
symbiotic relationship.
BUT - How do you remain true to your convictions when friends are busy
accumulating and building bigger houses to hold the bumf? My daughter is
beginning to notice one friend's huge house and "wants to be rich, too,"
even though WE probably have more money on paper than the "rich" friends (no
debt, nice retirement accounts). We discuss different types of being "rich,"
which helps, but the "I wants" seem to be a congenital defect of our
species. :)
[Tim & Jennifer Johnson] We haven;t had this issue yet. I know that not
attending school and being around the class system all day has delayed this,
but I can imagine that one day it will rear it's ugly head.
Also, how will you manage subsistence crops, if you are traveling?
[Tim & Jennifer Johnson] Yes, I definitely meant when we are done traveling.
We are in a tiny trailer, 13', and so even growing sprouts is difficult.
Fruits rot in a day or two, and veggies literally melt or freeze, depending
it we leave them out or put them in the ice chest. In many ways, living in
our suburb house was more environmentally appropriate. I organic gardened,
composted, and used cloth instead of paper for everything. I miss cloth
diapers and composting more than I ever thought that I would. We do hope to
settle into a place this year, and have had some wonderful options come our
way even since we wrote this initial email strand. In the meantime, we will
frequent national parks,. and communities along the way.
[Tim & Jennifer Johnson] About the only thing that I look for in a community
when it comes to my children is the following. The kids have to like it.
Do they feel welcome? Are they allowed to be themselves? Do people treat
them with respect as they would an adult? Are they open to the idea of
natural learning? Do they have lots of rules when it comes to kids, are
there lots of things that aren't allowed for kids? I also would have to
think long and hard before i joined a community where there were lots of
other kids, and they were all public schooled.
I checked out Summerhill School, which is I think what you are referring to.
[Tim & Jennifer Johnson] We have thought(together with another family) of
creating a village, as a business of sorts. We don't want to provide a
school for kids, necessarily. Rather, we would like to create a place where
anyone, regardless of age,can come and learn native/aboriginal skills,
wilderness skills, and survival skills, and learn to live in tune with
nature. i imagine a village of people who are all learners, who are all
there to gain the knowledge that they seek, creating a real village. I
agree that many kids can create a pack society. what I envision is more
like a multi-generational learning center. A place where people learn off
each other, regardless of age. Only interest guides learning.
<< I'm personally interested in a more primitive (aka native) existence, but
the beauty of
community is that we can be as involved with each other as is comfortable.>>
[Tim & Jennifer Johnson] That is what Tim meant. To have an extension of
that as a community. Where members are a village, a tribe, all doing
individual, yet cooperative tasks for the good of everyone. helping each
other, and being helped by each other. Without keeping score/
Anyway, that is just a rough sketch of what we are thinking now. of
course, the reality will probably be a variation of that, at most.
Community if nothing else is truly the art of negotiation. I'll be happy to
keep you posted as to what transpires next.
Peace, Jennifer
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
desperately, but in our travels, if we knew of one down the road, we made an
attempt to check it out. Some communities had a focus of interpersonal
relationships, which I am all for, but not to the detriment of my
surroundings. We are very much into alternative building and off-grid
lifestyles, and some of the communities we looked into just didn't factor
those issues into their lives. We have now limited our search to
eco-villages, generally. I did find a community which I fell in love with
in North Carolina, but their membership fees were extremely high, and were
required before even becoming a member. It would have depleted our savings,
and left no room to build nor create a home business. We would again be in
the trap of having a mortgage, and the emotions that coincide with that
venture.
As far as what we would want to share, people are not included. I have even
read of one community that shares the children. When you join the
community, you relinquish your "ownership" for severe lack of a better word,
and all the children become everyone's children. Very different from our
culture, and I don't know how well I would do at that. By sharing things i
meant meals, stories, laughter, books, gardens, farm animals (for milk,
eggs, and meat), toys, games, arts, music, tools, appliances, and vehicles.
This would necessitate a common space for these activities. I imagine a
central common area surrounded loosely by private accommodations.
You have mentioned money and savings. personally, the sale of our home gave
us a little next egg which we dip into to travel. I suppose that we will
use whatever is left to sustain us as we search, and subsequently join a
community. We intend to build a cob house, so that will be dirt cheap, but
the systems will require some capital. As for retirement, that would depend
on what type of community you join. Many communities have home based
businesses, large enough to support many in the community, or small enough
to support only one family, and saving for retirement in these situations
would work the same as in a small business. Some communities pool all
resources, and provide all members with health care, lodging, and a stipend
for their entire membership. This is very reassuring to those with no
initial savings, but can be frustrating for members who eventually wish to
leave but have little monetarily to show for their efforts while at the
community. Some offer a combination of the above. it depends on what you
want. Personally, I will probably seek out the first option, but, depending
on the group of people, I may consider an income sharing type of scenario.
I know that Stephen Gaskin of The Farm is developing an assisted living
facility on the community, where older people who have no family, or older
members can live out their lives in peace with the extended family of
community to support them. I don't know the logistics, but it is definitely
an interesting concept, and needed too, as the Farm enters it's third decade
of existence.
I thought this post was very interesting. I know an unschooler (whose
children are grown now) who bought property with another unschooling family
when their children were young, and they together became a family. I know
it was very successful for them. The concept itself has a certain appeal.
I wonder how many homeschoolers/unschoolers are forming this kind of
symbiotic relationship.
BUT - How do you remain true to your convictions when friends are busy
accumulating and building bigger houses to hold the bumf? My daughter is
beginning to notice one friend's huge house and "wants to be rich, too,"
even though WE probably have more money on paper than the "rich" friends (no
debt, nice retirement accounts). We discuss different types of being "rich,"
which helps, but the "I wants" seem to be a congenital defect of our
species. :)
[Tim & Jennifer Johnson] We haven;t had this issue yet. I know that not
attending school and being around the class system all day has delayed this,
but I can imagine that one day it will rear it's ugly head.
Also, how will you manage subsistence crops, if you are traveling?
[Tim & Jennifer Johnson] Yes, I definitely meant when we are done traveling.
We are in a tiny trailer, 13', and so even growing sprouts is difficult.
Fruits rot in a day or two, and veggies literally melt or freeze, depending
it we leave them out or put them in the ice chest. In many ways, living in
our suburb house was more environmentally appropriate. I organic gardened,
composted, and used cloth instead of paper for everything. I miss cloth
diapers and composting more than I ever thought that I would. We do hope to
settle into a place this year, and have had some wonderful options come our
way even since we wrote this initial email strand. In the meantime, we will
frequent national parks,. and communities along the way.
[Tim & Jennifer Johnson] About the only thing that I look for in a community
when it comes to my children is the following. The kids have to like it.
Do they feel welcome? Are they allowed to be themselves? Do people treat
them with respect as they would an adult? Are they open to the idea of
natural learning? Do they have lots of rules when it comes to kids, are
there lots of things that aren't allowed for kids? I also would have to
think long and hard before i joined a community where there were lots of
other kids, and they were all public schooled.
I checked out Summerhill School, which is I think what you are referring to.
[Tim & Jennifer Johnson] We have thought(together with another family) of
creating a village, as a business of sorts. We don't want to provide a
school for kids, necessarily. Rather, we would like to create a place where
anyone, regardless of age,can come and learn native/aboriginal skills,
wilderness skills, and survival skills, and learn to live in tune with
nature. i imagine a village of people who are all learners, who are all
there to gain the knowledge that they seek, creating a real village. I
agree that many kids can create a pack society. what I envision is more
like a multi-generational learning center. A place where people learn off
each other, regardless of age. Only interest guides learning.
<< I'm personally interested in a more primitive (aka native) existence, but
the beauty of
community is that we can be as involved with each other as is comfortable.>>
[Tim & Jennifer Johnson] That is what Tim meant. To have an extension of
that as a community. Where members are a village, a tribe, all doing
individual, yet cooperative tasks for the good of everyone. helping each
other, and being helped by each other. Without keeping score/
Anyway, that is just a rough sketch of what we are thinking now. of
course, the reality will probably be a variation of that, at most.
Community if nothing else is truly the art of negotiation. I'll be happy to
keep you posted as to what transpires next.
Peace, Jennifer
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
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b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
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Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Danielle Conger
Amy wrote:
Also, how will you manage subsistence crops, if you are traveling? (You mention not wanting to use supermarkets.) I think you mean when you do find land? This is something -- well, not at a subsistence level, I have to admit -- something I am interested in doing more with but am intimidated by. I dabble in gardening, but when it comes to pest control, etc., I become overwhelmed. I guess i just need to throw myself into it and use trial and error; I need to gain some confidence.
=================================================================
I toy with this idea on a small scale, myself. I would love to have a bit more land here than we do, but I've done a lot to our acre. I've tried to plant as many edibles as possible, and many edible plants are quite ornamental (regional limitations apply, of course, we're on the Western Shore of the Chesapeake Bay and have quite an extended growing season compared to Vermont).
I think it's really cool to be able to walk outside and grab what I need for cooking or snacking, or whatever. I read in an organic gardening book once about walking outside and taking note of all the things you could live off in your yard, and that stuck with me. I'd love to take it a bit further, but I'm no purist either. I have no problem with rounding out my production at the grocery store or the other local farm markets. <g> I also have dreams of someday raising sheep, and then I'll be joining you guys in the spinning and dying conversations. ;)
We have lots of herbs, plant lots of veggies, and have blueberries, blackberries and strawberries. I'd love to get some pole apples to try, but they're supposed to be pretty hard to keep organically. Our crops provide so many learning opportunities! We're outside a lot in the nicer months, which always makes me feel better about being hunkered inside on days like today. <g> Even our failures we've turned into successes. Carrots don't do much in our soil, but the swallowtail caterpillars *love* them, so now we plant them near our butterfly bushes just for the caterpillars. Our first season planting here was a terrible drought, but we had a bumper crop of beautiful hot peppers that lasted all through the winter once we'd roasted and frozen them--made the transition from New Mexico a little easier to bear. <g>
I knew very little about gardening when we moved into this house 2.5 years ago other than I desperately wanted to do it. We had a very small garden in Albuquerque that grew a couple of things, and my grandmother was a big gardener--grew up on farms in Virginia. But most of my knowledge is just from reading books and trial and error. Jump into it! It's great fun, and seeds don't cost a whole lot.
--danielle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Also, how will you manage subsistence crops, if you are traveling? (You mention not wanting to use supermarkets.) I think you mean when you do find land? This is something -- well, not at a subsistence level, I have to admit -- something I am interested in doing more with but am intimidated by. I dabble in gardening, but when it comes to pest control, etc., I become overwhelmed. I guess i just need to throw myself into it and use trial and error; I need to gain some confidence.
=================================================================
I toy with this idea on a small scale, myself. I would love to have a bit more land here than we do, but I've done a lot to our acre. I've tried to plant as many edibles as possible, and many edible plants are quite ornamental (regional limitations apply, of course, we're on the Western Shore of the Chesapeake Bay and have quite an extended growing season compared to Vermont).
I think it's really cool to be able to walk outside and grab what I need for cooking or snacking, or whatever. I read in an organic gardening book once about walking outside and taking note of all the things you could live off in your yard, and that stuck with me. I'd love to take it a bit further, but I'm no purist either. I have no problem with rounding out my production at the grocery store or the other local farm markets. <g> I also have dreams of someday raising sheep, and then I'll be joining you guys in the spinning and dying conversations. ;)
We have lots of herbs, plant lots of veggies, and have blueberries, blackberries and strawberries. I'd love to get some pole apples to try, but they're supposed to be pretty hard to keep organically. Our crops provide so many learning opportunities! We're outside a lot in the nicer months, which always makes me feel better about being hunkered inside on days like today. <g> Even our failures we've turned into successes. Carrots don't do much in our soil, but the swallowtail caterpillars *love* them, so now we plant them near our butterfly bushes just for the caterpillars. Our first season planting here was a terrible drought, but we had a bumper crop of beautiful hot peppers that lasted all through the winter once we'd roasted and frozen them--made the transition from New Mexico a little easier to bear. <g>
I knew very little about gardening when we moved into this house 2.5 years ago other than I desperately wanted to do it. We had a very small garden in Albuquerque that grew a couple of things, and my grandmother was a big gardener--grew up on farms in Virginia. But most of my knowledge is just from reading books and trial and error. Jump into it! It's great fun, and seeds don't cost a whole lot.
--danielle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wendy Carr
This is my dream! We were about to buy some land and settle in and grow our
own food and unschool our kids and just be ourselves, but then the army had
different plans for us and now we are headed to Germany. Everything happens
for a reason, so I am sure we are supposed to go to Germany (We have got
Germany Orders 3 times and got out of them each time, but we keep getting
them, so now we are going cause we are supposed to go I guess). I am sure
Germany will offer up some awsome unschooling times for us! BUT, when we get
back, in 07, we are buying land and growing our own garden!!!
When the first baby laughed for the first time, the laugh broke into a
thousand pieces and they all went skipping about, and that was the beginning
of fairies. - Barrie
Mom to Austyn(8) and Caitlin(5 months)
Proud To Home-school!
_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee.
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
own food and unschool our kids and just be ourselves, but then the army had
different plans for us and now we are headed to Germany. Everything happens
for a reason, so I am sure we are supposed to go to Germany (We have got
Germany Orders 3 times and got out of them each time, but we keep getting
them, so now we are going cause we are supposed to go I guess). I am sure
Germany will offer up some awsome unschooling times for us! BUT, when we get
back, in 07, we are buying land and growing our own garden!!!
>From: "Danielle Conger" <danielle.conger@...>Wendy Carr
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] living la vida buena
>Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 16:56:27 -0500
>
When the first baby laughed for the first time, the laugh broke into a
thousand pieces and they all went skipping about, and that was the beginning
of fairies. - Barrie
Mom to Austyn(8) and Caitlin(5 months)
Proud To Home-school!
_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee.
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amy McCormick
Thanks for the clarification on the original post. I have learned even more now, thanks to the additional information in your post (checked out the Farm in TN, etc.). I am not as evolved as you are in your undertaking, but this has caused me to reassess what our original goals were when we moved to VT. More below on your post.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim & Jennifer Johnson
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 4:04 PM
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] living la vida buena
[Tim & Jennifer Johnson] We haven;t had this issue yet. I know that not
attending school and being around the class system all day has delayed this,
but I can imagine that one day it will rear it's ugly head.>>
It's funny, I just saw a commercial today that played on this very thing we are talking about. I only saw it once, so forgive any errors. A couple of (male) hikers are walking along a country road, talking about how they want to live off the grid, back to nature, etc. They hitch a ride with a passing car, and when they get in, they slowly look around in awe at the "beautiful" (expensive) car - then there is a close up of the logo: RANGE ROVER. In the face of capitalistic avarice the dream of a simple life went right out the window.
In my opinion, the "awe" could also have been dismay over the fact that someone would choose to drive/own this $40-50k hulking conglomeration of plastic and metal spewing its unnecessarily immense polluting emissions without regard over the pristine land, but that's just me.
In any case, this commercial also plays on the common theory that only young idealists want to go counter-culture. "Ah, youth (chuckle, chuckle, wink, wink)." (It also lets those who have "achieved" the Range Rover-lifestyle thing sit back in their leather recliner and smugly reminisce over their own apparently misguided, idealistic youth. How silly I was then before I gained control of my EMPIRE!!!) Sorry, I love to pick apart commercials. Anyway.
However, there are a growing number of us who, instead of rejecting it all, are CHUCKING it all. We are mid-30s to mid-40s, we have had the big careers, big investments, big house(s), the expensive cars, the ability to buy whatever we want, and the trust fund to cushion our falls, and we don't want that kind of life because it does not bring us the joy and fulfillment we seek. I'm not saying all of us are in this boat, but we do exist. We hunger to be in harmony, in tune with the world, and we have a nagging intuition that it doesn't involve joining Dad's country club or summering on our yacht. After the American Dream is reality, a new dream must take shape, perhaps a Global Dream - of a better earth. A philanthropy to future generations.
It also is interesting to note that no matter how radical someone may think your choice to drastically simplify may be (actually, it sounds quite complex and intricate and fascinating, full of personal sacrifice, but I digress), we ALL are somewhere along the spectrum, either by choice or by government mandate. Regulations on industrial and other pollution to our atmosphere, the (belated) protection of our oceans, the contamination of our water supply are beginning to affect all of us. Many new houses being built are done with an eye toward using solar energy, maximizing site placement, improving windows and insulation (less power/heat/air usage), etc. I guess the "hippies" were on to something 30-40 years ago, and the world will be better for it.
I think your commitment to the incredible change in your lifestyle as a personal, social, (and political?) statment is commendable, and I for one would be fascinated to hear more.
Since the group has introduced me to Blogs (I lurk), I might add that I for one would regularly tune in to read how this transformation progresses. How about it?
<<I'll be happy to
keep you posted as to what transpires next.
Peace, Jennifer>>
I look forward to it!
A m y
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], Tim & Jennifer Johnson
<bugnbat@d...> wrote:
<<I'm personally
interested in a more primitive (aka native) existence, but the beauty
of
community is that we can be as involved with each other as is
comfortable.>>
You might be interested in reading Daniel Quinn -- he advocates, not
communal living (as Sandra pointed out, there are reasons that
communes don't tend to last that long), but tribal working
arrangments. I won't go into it here, as I don't want to go too OT,
but check out _Beyond Civilization_ for a quick and dirty look at his
thoughts.
Peace,
Amy
<bugnbat@d...> wrote:
<<I'm personally
interested in a more primitive (aka native) existence, but the beauty
of
community is that we can be as involved with each other as is
comfortable.>>
You might be interested in reading Daniel Quinn -- he advocates, not
communal living (as Sandra pointed out, there are reasons that
communes don't tend to last that long), but tribal working
arrangments. I won't go into it here, as I don't want to go too OT,
but check out _Beyond Civilization_ for a quick and dirty look at his
thoughts.
Peace,
Amy