Danielle Conger

Mercedes wrote:

Always had to be sure my children would get MY view (which was
usually negative towards the show for some good-to-me reason)
***

...really hoping to help other moms consider just biting their tongues or leaving the room if necessary to prevent ruining a fun show for their children. . . .
-----------------------------------------------

Okay, I'll bite...but not my tongue. <g>

I understand why we should not say things like, "Why are you watching this stupid show? It has no redeeming value whatsoever." That would imply a kind of thoughtlessness that doesn't belong in unschooling OR in a valuable intellectual exchange. As an unschooler, however, I would not "bite my tongue" when watching something with my children. Part of living and learning, as I see it, absolutely includes the exchange of ideas, even if those ideas aren't always entirely positive or glowing. I think that my opinion matters and is valuable, just as theirs does and is. I see myself learning alongside my kids, which does not mean keeping my ideas and opinions to myself, but rather owning them AS MINE while respecting and encouraging my children to develop their own ideas and opinions as well without denigration or dismissal.

I think the key is to have a true exchange rather than spouting a lecture or initiating a power struggle. A positive exchange would ask for and respect another person's opinion. It would involve a genuine desire both to understand where the other person was coming from and to share your own thoughts. Dh and I debate and disagree about issues, shows, politics, whatever; that's part of what we enjoy about each other's company. But, we always do so with a mutual respect--the same respect that we show our children. I can't imagine NOT discussing something that we just spent time watching, reading or playing together. To me, that's part of the joy of watching, reading or playing as a group, rather than engaging in the same activity as an individual.

Part of learning and being interested in something involves discussing it with other people who are interested as well and have their own opinions. I honestly can't imagine watching something with my kids and not talking about it with them, whether it was a Disney film or a Presidential press conference. Sometimes we discuss things in terms of aesthetics, like "weren't those costumes beautiful?" or "those images were amazing!" Sometimes in terms of appreciation, like "I can't imagine all the work that went into making this!" or "I wonder how long it took just to put on the makeup." Sometimes in terms of judgement: "I didn't like the way he looked at the world because..." or "he had absolutely no grounds for the arguments he was making." Sometimes in terms of personal application, like "If I were in that situation, I wonder what I would do?" or "that really made me rethink the way I thought about x." Sometimes in terms of emotion: "I was so sad when x happened" or "I was so mad when so and so did x."

Just my $.02

--danielle

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In a message dated Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:42:02 EST, ejcrewe@a... writes:
>>>>> It's just hard for me to watch or read the books to my cherubs
without imposing my views on them.>>>>>



In a message dated Thu Jan 8, 2004 1:09pm, danielle.conger@c... writes
>>>>>>Part of living and learning, as I see it, absolutely includes
the exchange of ideas, even if those ideas aren't always entirely
positive or glowing.>>>>>>



Whether the ideas aren't positive or glowing or whether your reaction
to the ideas aren't positive or glowing wasn't what I was getting at.
A mom who has a hard time reading/watching without imposing her
views, might get to a better unschooling place quicker by questioning
whether she actually wants to do all that imposing.



>>>>>>> I honestly can't imagine watching something with my kids and
not talking about it with them,

Yes, but imposing your views won't necessarily create an atmosphere
in your home where your kids want to share their ideas with you.

Mercedes

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In a message dated 1/9/2004 8:23:08 AM Central Standard Time,
mulwiler@... writes:


> A mom who has a hard time reading/watching without imposing her
> views, might get to a better unschooling place quicker by questioning
> whether she actually wants to do all that imposing.
>

That's exactly why I don't vocalize the running commentary in my head about
Arthur. I haven't been in the same room for the Bears. I had the same thing
with Superman and such, but my kids have taught me a lot about superheros and
superpowers. By keeping my mouth shut in front of the children (and with a
little help from you guys), I was able to see the value in Spiderman. Maybe I'll
get there with Arthur - there was a good episode on asthma, but my kids
didn't understand why they would be teased and ostracised for having it. It's
doubtful I'll get there with the Bears, but I've been surprised before! I don't
want to discourage them from teaching me about the Bears if they want to. So
far they haven't really be interested in the show that much.

Elizabeth in IL


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In a message dated Fri Jan 9, 2004 2:30am ejcrewe@a... writes:
>>>> That's exactly why I don't vocalize the running commentary in
my head about Arthur. >>>>>


Yeah, I could appreciate the Ninja Turtles now and probably even He-
Man <g>


>>>>>>>. It's doubtful I'll get there with the Bears, but I've been
surprised before! >>>>>>

Now can some of you smart ladies please help me get to where I can be
surprised about music videos!

Actually I like some of them - alot of them (anyone seen that one by
White Stripes that is done with Legos?) - but sometimes MTV and/or
VH1 are more than I can handle. Madelyn usually lets me know by
saying "Um, Mom, you probably aren't going to like this one" and that
voice inside me rages "But why do you want to watch it? Don't you
realize how degrading these are to women ?" or whatever soapbox I'm
on that day. . . . . <g>


I keep that voice silent these days, though, so she does come and we
can exchange ideas about just about any topic.

And she doesn't watch them ALL the time <g>


Mercedes
off to the EMP (Experimental Music Project) in Seattle with Madelyn
and two unschooling friends all of whom love many types of music

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In a message dated 1/9/04 9:07:59 AM, mulwiler@... writes:

<< Madelyn usually lets me know by

saying "Um, Mom, you probably aren't going to like this one" and that

voice inside me rages "But why do you want to watch it? Don't you

realize how degrading these are to women ?" or whatever soapbox I'm

on that day. . . . . <g> >>


When I have those feelings I remind myself of the music that was out when I
was a kid that we liked. And despite the claims that Michael Jackson invented
the music video, there were Beatles music videos for several of their single
releases as they came out. They would be shown on two to four of the rock and
roll shows. I was thinking of the one for "Hello, Goodbye" just Wednesday, as
we were driving back from the museum on the freeway and Holly asked me to
sing it to her. It's not something you can sing alone, but it was great watching
the video (so long ago) because you could tell who was singing what.

Does anyone know whether those videos are available anywhere? They had one
for Strawberry Fields, I think Elinor Rigby (maybe not), Penny Lane, Hello
Goodbye and I Am the Walrus (cuts from Magical Mystery Tour). I rarely hear
anyone remember them. Probably because I'm old. <g> But anyway, in their day they
were obnoxious to adults and shocking for their goofy irreponsibility, and
grown men having their hair too long and acting like children.

Being older than the people on the videos helps, for perspective. <g>

I look at the macho-obnoxious cowboy guy whose things are so sexist (country
music videos were always on at the hospital when I'd go for casts or x-rays
last year), and just be amused that he was doing something for which he would be
so embarrassed years later. Britney Spears, too, though at least she's a
good dancer and fun to watch. All that INTENSITY.

I don't think they'll make or break the social view of any unschooled kid.
Back to that sense of self again. If kids feel whole and happy, they don't
need to build new selves out of parts of fleeting popular culture.

Sandra

pam sorooshian

On Jan 9, 2004, at 7:30 AM, ejcrewe@... wrote:

> Maybe I'll get there with Arthur - there was a good episode on
> asthma, but my kids didn't understand why they would be teased and
> ostracised for having it.

I think part of what Rosie likes about Arthur is that kind of thing -
it is sociology for her because so much of it happens at school or
relates to school. I think it is pretty darn realistic, too, about
school. There is bullying and teasing, there are unreasonable teachers,
and boredom - but there are friendships and some nice things, too.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Danielle Conger

Mercedes wrote:
Whether the ideas aren't positive or glowing or whether your reaction
to the ideas aren't positive or glowing wasn't what I was getting at.
A mom who has a hard time reading/watching without imposing her
views, might get to a better unschooling place quicker by questioning
whether she actually wants to do all that imposing.

>>>>>>> I honestly can't imagine watching something with my kids and
not talking about it with them,

Yes, but imposing your views won't necessarily create an atmosphere
in your home where your kids want to share their ideas with you.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was responding to the "bite your tongue" comment and trying to point out that there are other options besides dismissing someone's interests and remaining silent. Yes, a mom who cannot respond in any way besides, "this is terrible, yadda, yadda" would probably get to a better unschooling place by keeping silent. But she might get to an even better unschooling place by learning to have an honest and open intellectual exchange with another person, regardless of their age.

For instance, if I'm part of a reading group, I don't go in trying to draw out other members of the group. I go there genuinely interested in what others have to say and excited to hear the different viewpoints, even if I don't always value them equally. I also go in enthused to share my own points of view and hopeful that I will arrive at some deeper understanding through the course of the exchange. Same thing with discussions with my husband, children, family members, this group--it's a matter of respect and autonomy. I might disagree, but I do so without dismissal and with an openness and willingness to listen to opposing viewpoints that might allow me to change my own.

Although, I have to say that I was uncomfortable with JJ's analogy of the hats as well because it could imply a kind of hierarchical power structure between a parent using these hats to "draw out" the child's thinking and the child at whom they were directed. I know it doesn't have to do that, and it was phrased in a way that applied to conducting one's own thinking not someone else's. Nevertheless, I was uncomfortable with the logical extension that parents could use this technique to create a kind of discussion classroom atmosphere rather than a lecture classroom atmosphere. Maybe it's just my own background as a teacher who ran a discussion-based classroom that made me read this into it. Just sounded very school-y to me.

--danielle

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[email protected]

danielle.conger@... writes:


> Although, I have to say that I was uncomfortable with JJ's analogy of the
> hats as well because it could imply a kind of hierarchical power structure
> between a parent using these hats to "draw out" the child's thinking and the
> child at whom they were directed. I know it doesn't have to do that, and it was
> phrased in a way that applied to conducting one's own thinking not someone
> else's. Nevertheless, I was uncomfortable with the logical extension that
> parents could use this technique to create a kind of discussion classroom
> atmosphere rather than a lecture classroom atmosphere. Maybe it's just my own
> background as a teacher who ran a discussion-based classroom that made me read this
> into it. Just sounded very school-y to me.
>
> --danielle
>

Gee, I see it as creative and personally useful. But no doubt parents
somewhere could misuse it -- they seem to manage with everything from
Scripture to dessert!

School's the one place I haven't read of De Bono's techniques being
used, although probably it could be/ has been. I have read case studies about
unusual and un-schooly places worldwide such as South African diamond mines and
Scottish fast food restaurants (well, something was in Scotland, maybe the
fast food restaurants were here in the US.)

As for using it gently and ethically with children, there's a moving
description of Siberian children in a trauma ward using it as a creative tool
to participate in their own treatment and recovery. It was adapted to colored
balloons rather than hats because some of the children were amputees, if I
recall. Many couldn't speak due to their injuries or conditions, and one way they
used the technique was to give them more control over communicating what they
wanted or feared, how they were feeling, etc.

Anyway, sorry to hear it hit you wrong. Maybe if you thought about it
with a different hat (mindset) ? <g>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Danielle Conger

JJ wrote:
Anyway, sorry to hear it hit you wrong. Maybe if you thought about it
with a different hat (mindset) ? <g>
----------------------------------------------

<LOL> Can I be puce? I think it just rings too much like the teaching techniques I used in my classroom, trying to teach kids who had spent more than 12 years being trained out of thinking how to think critically and develop written arguments. Offering them written formulas because they hadn't grown up with it or seen it modeled anywhere.

I work really hard to treat my kids as equals and not go in to teaching mode, so I'm really wary of anything that smacks of pedagogy. So maybe this how teaching has gotten in my way--in terms of an earlier post that talked about former teachers having a hard time with unschooling.

Funny, last night dh and I were debating at the dinner table the problems inherent with Bush's new immigrant worker proposal. We were going on about it as the kids were finishing up. Sam wanted to go watch his Rescue Heroes DVD, but the girls wanted to stay and listen to what we were talking about. I asked Emily (6) what she thought America and freedom meant, and she had some really interesting points to make about why the pilgrims came and what the Revolution was about. It was a really great exchange, and the girls were interested in listening and participating. It lead us into questions of justice and nationality. We were all just enjoying talking about things and trading our ideas. Yesterday, all day, was a really great unschooling day for us.

--danielle

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TreeGoddess

I remember (and love) those videos because back when MTV was in it's
infancy there weren't really that many bands with videos so they had to
rotate the small amount that they had. MTV used to play all these
videos fairly often, but I haven't seen them for years.
-Tracy-


On Jan 9, 2004, at 12:48 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

> Does anyone know whether those videos are available anywhere? They
> had one
> for Strawberry Fields, I think Elinor Rigby (maybe not), Penny Lane,
> Hello
> Goodbye and I Am the Walrus (cuts from Magical Mystery Tour). I
> rarely hear
> anyone remember them.

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/9/04 12:48:49 EST, SandraDodd@... writes:

>>>>>>When I have those feelings I remind myself of the music that
was out when I was a kid that we liked. >>>>>>>


Yeah - what did my parents think about that Alice Cooper "Muscle of
Love" 8-track I was listening to anyway?


>>>>>>>>I don't think they'll make or break the social view of any
unschooled kid. Back to that sense of self again. If kids feel
whole and happy, they don't need to build new selves out of parts of
fleeting popular culture.>>>>

And they can switch back and forth between MTV and cartoon network
(it was Popeye last night) with such ease.

Mercedes
who along with Madelyn is wondering why are Olive Oyl's hands so big
anyway?