Barbara Moreda

One thing that really stands out for me ... have you tried an eliminaton
diet? I am willing to bet he has some food allergies. there is a very good
book, "Is This Your Child?" By Doris Rapp that has some great info on
elimination diets, food allergies as well as environmental allergies. If
your child does have some allergies, these behaviors can be totally and
completely beyond his control.

Barbara



Barbara Moreda
Visit www.homeiscool.com for great deals on Usborne Books
Rent DVD's online through Mentura at www.homeiscool.com
Mommy to RJ (12/91), Michael (11/95) and Maggie (2/98)
mailto:homeiscool@...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Genevieve Labonté" <fihz@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 5:27 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Discipline, frustrations and all that goes
with it


>
> I've been reading you ladies for what, a year and a half now?? I've
> always loved everyone's great opinions about unschooling, and the whole
> life that goes with it. We've been "officially" homeschooling since
> September, but haven't really changed anything, except keep Felix's
> drawings and all in case we get asked about them by the school board. I
> still have some difficulties letting go with bedtimes and mealtimes
> (especially this one!) and my major "lost in space" is what to do when
> things don't turn out well... Let me explain... My second son
> (Jonathan, who's almost 5 -in Feb-) is very, very active, disturbing,
> Actually, I feel like I've failed with him ( I know, very bad feelings
> for me AND him, but I'm trying SO HARD it's frustrating!). I don't know
> what to do with him anymore, and I'm looking for ideas furthur out of
> the box than I can think of right now. So any suggestion is welcome, it
> might lighten a light somewhere in me and eventually get things better.
>
>
> I must say he's a very active (physically) kid, is very interested in
> everything around him, loves to play, is very creative and imaginative,
> and if you're one-on-one with him he's fun. BUT and these are what gets
> me so dang frustrated about him, he rarely listens to us; doesn't look
> at us when we talk to him and doesn't have a clue what you were talking
> to him about (talk about frustrating!), can't stay still at the table
> with *minimal* manners, is quite agressive with his brothers ( 6 1/2 yo
> and 2X 2yo). We've tried natural consequences, to which most don't work
> since he doesn't care, ignoring bad behaviors and all, and I could add a
> big list to all this, and even lots of suggestions I've read off here.
>
> I do try to be easy with him, I tell him wayyyy in advance if we have to
> go out and he has to get dressed (step 1 out of his pj's and step 2 in
> his winter coat), I explain to him where we're going, what we will do
> there, and why we HAVE to go today and not later when I can go alone, or
> what I expect from him ( no crazy running around the pool, for him to
> stay close to us in a crowdy place, etc...) I don't think I have to big
> demandings.
>
> This seems to be turning out as a big frustration about him, but gosh, I
> feel like I'm in a dead-end zone, and everyone around me give me
> suggestions like, " You should send him to school next year, it'll be
> easier on you", or " you should find some medication for him to calm him
> down", or " You should discipline him way more, you're too easy with
> him" etc.. But I don't feel comfortable with those, I feel like if *I*
> do something on my side to ease out his days, he'll get better and life
> too!
>
> I hope I gave enough information, but I'm so frustrated about today's
> outing, that I'm trying really hard not to "Send him in his room with no
> supper" and be a little more calm and find what went wrong there
> too.....
>
> Genevieve, mom to
> Felix, 6 ans,
> Jonathan, 4 ans,
> Xavier et Robin, 2 ans...
> Living in outer space, or might I say in Canada :-)
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
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> [email protected]
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>
>

Barbara Moreda

Genevieve ...

I find your posts truly heart-felt.

Sometimes, natural consequences are NOT acceptable, like you said ... it is
right to allow him to burn himself with a campfire? Get lost and possibly
have harm come to him when you are out and about? No, of course not.

So, then comes the logical consequence ... maybe not going camping with you
... or you and him staying home while daddy takes the other children. Same
with festivals, or shopping, or whatever. If he can't be trusted to follow
some safety rules, then he can't go.

Again, to me, it really sounds like an allergy issue may be going on.

Oh, another good book is Tracking down Hidden Food Allergies by William
Crook

Good luck!

Barbara

Barbara Moreda
Visit www.homeiscool.com for great deals on Usborne Books
Rent DVD's online through Mentura at www.homeiscool.com
Mommy to RJ (12/91), Michael (11/95) and Maggie (2/98)
mailto:homeiscool@...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Genevieve Labonté" <fihz@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 8:53 PM
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Discipline, frustrations and all that
goes with it


>
>
>
>
> << We've tried natural consequences, to which most don't work
> since he doesn't care >>
>
> Natural consequences just happen by themselves.
> Things parents try are punishments, not natural consequences.
>
> **What I mean here, is that I've let the natural consequences go by, and
> he still repeats again and again. We lost him I don't know how many
> times in big crowds were *I* was starting to not find it safe ( I mean
> thousands of people in a place) and he finds it funny, where even the
> security guards are looking for him and he just has a good laugh. I've
> explained to him what could happen and let him long enough he has to
> explain to a guard who he is and that he's looking for his parents, but
> he just doesn't get it! Maybe I don't "get" the whole natural
> consequence thing. I get the main idea, but it seems that when it's out
> of "easy" borders, I just chicken out and can't let go.
>
>
> <<I feel like if *I*
> do something on my side to ease out his days, he'll get better and life
> too!>>
>
> Is he too big to carry around?
> **Unfortunatly, yes, he's a big 45 lbs.
> Maybe he's resentful of the baby and needs more time with you alone, and
>
> close.
> Will he let you rock him to sleep and hum to him?
> ** I often pat his back to sleep, put his little music on, he usually
> jumps in our bed by midnight and we let him cuddle with us, but it never
> seems enough.
> Can you go on slow leisurely walks, just you and him?
> ** I can, but I guess I don't take the option often. I'm usually alone
> with the 4 kids right now, but it wouldn't hurt to try more often when
> DH is home to take some time together....
>
> <<I'm trying really hard not to "Send him in his room with no
> supper">>
>
> Have you ever sent him to his room with no supper? Honestly?
> NO!!! I couldn't do that, but lately, the idea comes up as a "Maybe if
> you tried this he'd understand". I *know* it wouldn't work, and I've
> never done it, it probably comes from friends I know who make their kids
> behave with reasonings like these. The farthest I've been is no desert,
> usually because he's goofing around with his food and hasn't eaten for
> like 15 minutes and I know he isn't hungry. It'll usually be a "fruit
> or yogourt desert instead of ..." but even then, if I've made a special
> desert and I know they're not eating because they know what's coming, I
> wouldn't deprive him of it...
>
> Because that's withholding love and food, and neither will ever make a
> boy
> nicer or calmer.
>
> My guess from what you wrote is that you've been pushing him away
> instead of
> drawing him nearer, and that your "natural consequences" haven't been
> too
> natural.
>
> ** That's what I'm scared of. I feel like I can't let go of a lot of
> his "goofyness" and it's making me resentful and all. I started getting
> frustrated about this situation about 6 months ago when we tried to go
> camping and on various outings and he'd just be plain dangerous and so
> hard to bring around that it's not worth the outing just because of all
> the frustration it brings to everyone else in the family. I do accept a
> lot ( I think so, anyways!) but because of his big ideas, I'm often
> scared of letting him go, and I guess he doesn't like being close to us,
> he want's to explore (which is legitimate) but there's a security
> perimiter (within sight in woods, or even earshot) in case anything
> happens, which he just can't stand, he's always pushing the limit, mine,
> not his.
>
> As for natural consequences, how far do they have to go?? I mean, I have
> a problem with letting him burn himself on the campfire, but then again
> if it's what it takes, should it be acceptable? How about meals? How
> much bad manners should be acceptable?? Maybe my "danger zone" is too
> fluffy and I should let him bump himself a couple of times??
>
> Writing this, I feel I'm trying to heal the wrong problem. I'm trying
> to make his world better, but not our relationship. I guess I should
> start by trying to be more "in-tune" with HIS needs and try really hard
> to satisfy them before trying to solve the other things. They might go
> away on their own with more love and patience towards him instead of
> resentfullness
>
> Thank you,
>
> Genevieve
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>

Genevieve Labonté

I've been reading you ladies for what, a year and a half now?? I've
always loved everyone's great opinions about unschooling, and the whole
life that goes with it. We've been "officially" homeschooling since
September, but haven't really changed anything, except keep Felix's
drawings and all in case we get asked about them by the school board. I
still have some difficulties letting go with bedtimes and mealtimes
(especially this one!) and my major "lost in space" is what to do when
things don't turn out well... Let me explain... My second son
(Jonathan, who's almost 5 -in Feb-) is very, very active, disturbing,
Actually, I feel like I've failed with him ( I know, very bad feelings
for me AND him, but I'm trying SO HARD it's frustrating!). I don't know
what to do with him anymore, and I'm looking for ideas furthur out of
the box than I can think of right now. So any suggestion is welcome, it
might lighten a light somewhere in me and eventually get things better.


I must say he's a very active (physically) kid, is very interested in
everything around him, loves to play, is very creative and imaginative,
and if you're one-on-one with him he's fun. BUT and these are what gets
me so dang frustrated about him, he rarely listens to us; doesn't look
at us when we talk to him and doesn't have a clue what you were talking
to him about (talk about frustrating!), can't stay still at the table
with *minimal* manners, is quite agressive with his brothers ( 6 1/2 yo
and 2X 2yo). We've tried natural consequences, to which most don't work
since he doesn't care, ignoring bad behaviors and all, and I could add a
big list to all this, and even lots of suggestions I've read off here.

I do try to be easy with him, I tell him wayyyy in advance if we have to
go out and he has to get dressed (step 1 out of his pj's and step 2 in
his winter coat), I explain to him where we're going, what we will do
there, and why we HAVE to go today and not later when I can go alone, or
what I expect from him ( no crazy running around the pool, for him to
stay close to us in a crowdy place, etc...) I don't think I have to big
demandings.

This seems to be turning out as a big frustration about him, but gosh, I
feel like I'm in a dead-end zone, and everyone around me give me
suggestions like, " You should send him to school next year, it'll be
easier on you", or " you should find some medication for him to calm him
down", or " You should discipline him way more, you're too easy with
him" etc.. But I don't feel comfortable with those, I feel like if *I*
do something on my side to ease out his days, he'll get better and life
too!

I hope I gave enough information, but I'm so frustrated about today's
outing, that I'm trying really hard not to "Send him in his room with no
supper" and be a little more calm and find what went wrong there
too.....

Genevieve, mom to
Felix, 6 ans,
Jonathan, 4 ans,
Xavier et Robin, 2 ans...
Living in outer space, or might I say in Canada :-)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

J. Stauffer

Hi,

My 2nd son just turned 5 and you just described him to a "T".

Something what helps me with Danny is to remember that he is NOT doing stuff
to make people crazy on purpose. Why in the world would he want to have
everyone aggravated at him? I try to put myself in his shoes, what does it
feel like to be Danny?

What if I had so many things calling to me that I couldn't stay focused on
one thing? What if I had so much energy that I felt I would crawl out of my
skin if I had to sit still one more minute? What if I couldn't remember the
topic of the conversation by the time people stopped talking?

Yikes! It has to be like bad, bad PMS everyday of your life and then have
people be aggravated at you because you have PMS.

I have found very few things that help Danny. The biggest is making sure he
gets enough rest. The second is making sure that he has free space to burn
energy, lots of time outside, gymnastics class, etc..

I have found that an important factor is for me to be able to stay connected
to Danny in a positive way. I make sure we have alone time together
(because he is lots of fun one-on-one) everyday. I snuggle with him on the
couch and rub his back. I breathe in the smell of his hair. Little things
to remind me that I love this guy.

When he is having a particularly tough day, I will sometimes suggest to him
that I know he is having a rough day and would he like a backrub. We go
off by ourselves and I give him a backrub or massage with Lavender essential
oil (lavender is calming) and I talk about when I first met him (he was
adopted) and how thrilled we were, and little memories. It usually moves
into general conversation but it changes the mood.

I figure this is Danny and he is going to have to go through the intense
emotions, the reactions of others, the sadness and anger no matter what. He
can either go through it feeling like even his mom doesn't like him or he
can go through it feeling like his mom would help him if she only knew how.

Julie S.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Genevieve Labonté" <fihz@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 4:27 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Discipline, frustrations and all that goes
with it


>
> I've been reading you ladies for what, a year and a half now?? I've
> always loved everyone's great opinions about unschooling, and the whole
> life that goes with it. We've been "officially" homeschooling since
> September, but haven't really changed anything, except keep Felix's
> drawings and all in case we get asked about them by the school board. I
> still have some difficulties letting go with bedtimes and mealtimes
> (especially this one!) and my major "lost in space" is what to do when
> things don't turn out well... Let me explain... My second son
> (Jonathan, who's almost 5 -in Feb-) is very, very active, disturbing,
> Actually, I feel like I've failed with him ( I know, very bad feelings
> for me AND him, but I'm trying SO HARD it's frustrating!). I don't know
> what to do with him anymore, and I'm looking for ideas furthur out of
> the box than I can think of right now. So any suggestion is welcome, it
> might lighten a light somewhere in me and eventually get things better.
>
>
> I must say he's a very active (physically) kid, is very interested in
> everything around him, loves to play, is very creative and imaginative,
> and if you're one-on-one with him he's fun. BUT and these are what gets
> me so dang frustrated about him, he rarely listens to us; doesn't look
> at us when we talk to him and doesn't have a clue what you were talking
> to him about (talk about frustrating!), can't stay still at the table
> with *minimal* manners, is quite agressive with his brothers ( 6 1/2 yo
> and 2X 2yo). We've tried natural consequences, to which most don't work
> since he doesn't care, ignoring bad behaviors and all, and I could add a
> big list to all this, and even lots of suggestions I've read off here.
>
> I do try to be easy with him, I tell him wayyyy in advance if we have to
> go out and he has to get dressed (step 1 out of his pj's and step 2 in
> his winter coat), I explain to him where we're going, what we will do
> there, and why we HAVE to go today and not later when I can go alone, or
> what I expect from him ( no crazy running around the pool, for him to
> stay close to us in a crowdy place, etc...) I don't think I have to big
> demandings.
>
> This seems to be turning out as a big frustration about him, but gosh, I
> feel like I'm in a dead-end zone, and everyone around me give me
> suggestions like, " You should send him to school next year, it'll be
> easier on you", or " you should find some medication for him to calm him
> down", or " You should discipline him way more, you're too easy with
> him" etc.. But I don't feel comfortable with those, I feel like if *I*
> do something on my side to ease out his days, he'll get better and life
> too!
>
> I hope I gave enough information, but I'm so frustrated about today's
> outing, that I'm trying really hard not to "Send him in his room with no
> supper" and be a little more calm and find what went wrong there
> too.....
>
> Genevieve, mom to
> Felix, 6 ans,
> Jonathan, 4 ans,
> Xavier et Robin, 2 ans...
> Living in outer space, or might I say in Canada :-)
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/6/04 4:11:07 PM, fihz@... writes:

<< We've tried natural consequences, to which most don't work
since he doesn't care >>

Natural consequences just happen by themselves.
Things parents try are punishments, not natural consequences.

<<I feel like if *I*
do something on my side to ease out his days, he'll get better and life
too!>>

Is he too big to carry around?
Maybe he's resentful of the baby and needs more time with you alone, and
close.
Will he let you rock him to sleep and hum to him?
Can you go on slow leisurely walks, just you and him?

<<I'm trying really hard not to "Send him in his room with no
supper">>

Have you ever sent him to his room with no supper? Honestly?
Because that's withholding love and food, and neither will ever make a boy
nicer or calmer.

My guess from what you wrote is that you've been pushing him away instead of
drawing him nearer, and that your "natural consequences" haven't been too
natural.

Tell us more.

Sandra

Dawn Adams

Genebieve writes:
>I must say he's a very active (physically) kid, is very interested in
>everything around him, loves to play, is very creative and imaginative,
>and if you're one-on-one with him he's fun. BUT and these are what gets
>me so dang frustrated about him, he rarely listens to us; doesn't look
>at us when we talk to him and doesn't have a clue what you were talking
>to him about (talk about frustrating!), can't stay still at the table
>with *minimal* manners, is quite agressive with his brothers ( 6 1/2 yo
>and 2X 2yo). We've tried natural consequences, to which most don't work
>since he doesn't care, ignoring bad behaviors and all, and I could add a
>big list to all this, and even lots of suggestions I've read off here.

Well, I can offer a bit. I'm ADD (NOT saying your son is :) ) and there are some similarities I can speak to. Not looking at you when he's talking to you for instance. Not a big deal for most for some that can be just too intense, like talking to someone and having them continually kiss or hug you. Not having a clue as to what you just said...I still have problems with that all the time and people have to repeat themselves. Either I'm deep in thought or the words just seem to pass in and out too quickly.

This seems to be turning out as a big frustration about him, but gosh, I
feel like I'm in a dead-end zone, and everyone around me give me
suggestions like, " You should send him to school next year, it'll be
easier on you", or " you should find some medication for him to calm him
down", or " You should discipline him way more, you're too easy with
him" etc.. But I don't feel comfortable with those, I feel like if *I*
do something on my side to ease out his days, he'll get better and life
too!
Okay, since I'm ADD I'll just approach it from there...It may be food dyes, allergies, type of discipline, something else but others on this list are more qualified to speak to those. It may also be a diagnosable condition like mine. I DO think ADD/ADHD is often a scapegoat and overdiagnosed but when it affects a homelife (as opposed to an artificial school environment) so deeply, it may be something to look at. A diagnoses isn't simply for a prescription but gives you a category to research (though you don't really need that I guess to research) and things like behaviour modifying techniques (doesn't that sound awful? Though my Behav. Mod involves mostly Dayrunners and calenders. :) ). If it DOES mean meds may be an option...Can I suggest they aren't so bad? I first took them in high school, noticed no ill effects, and the positives were, 1) a more even mood. I couldn't understand how at times my mood would swing from one extreme to the other.
2) a glimpse into what other people felt. For the first time I could really understand that I had some obstacles that others didn't. I marveled the first time I could sit down for an hour and study something. THIS was why others did better, not because they were more intelligent.
3) a way around the obstacles. I use Ritalyn on and off now as I feel I need it. When I worked retail there was a horrible time when my cash was always over or short. I was too fast on the register, with the customers and couldn't make out what individuals steps I needed to take or change to improve. I went in for my prescription and, voila, my brain slowed down, I could work it out and practice and when my small prescription was gone I could carry what I'd learned with me. It was sort of a training device. Not much discussion of using Ritalyn this way (of course, drug companies like to talk about keeping kids on it as much as possible) but I found it worked well for me.
Okay, again, I don't want you to think that I think your son is ADHD. I just saw some similarities so I thought I'd share if it ever came to that. I don't want to say that diagnoses' and meds are the only way, just my way and don't discount it if it ever comes to that. Sort of like, "If you ever make it to Shubenacadie, don't be afraid to go look at the tinsmith museum."
Now on to other posters who may have better advice...:)
Dawn (in NS)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Genevieve Labonté

<< We've tried natural consequences, to which most don't work
since he doesn't care >>

Natural consequences just happen by themselves.
Things parents try are punishments, not natural consequences.

**What I mean here, is that I've let the natural consequences go by, and
he still repeats again and again. We lost him I don't know how many
times in big crowds were *I* was starting to not find it safe ( I mean
thousands of people in a place) and he finds it funny, where even the
security guards are looking for him and he just has a good laugh. I've
explained to him what could happen and let him long enough he has to
explain to a guard who he is and that he's looking for his parents, but
he just doesn't get it! Maybe I don't "get" the whole natural
consequence thing. I get the main idea, but it seems that when it's out
of "easy" borders, I just chicken out and can't let go.


<<I feel like if *I*
do something on my side to ease out his days, he'll get better and life
too!>>

Is he too big to carry around?
**Unfortunatly, yes, he's a big 45 lbs.
Maybe he's resentful of the baby and needs more time with you alone, and

close.
Will he let you rock him to sleep and hum to him?
** I often pat his back to sleep, put his little music on, he usually
jumps in our bed by midnight and we let him cuddle with us, but it never
seems enough.
Can you go on slow leisurely walks, just you and him?
** I can, but I guess I don't take the option often. I'm usually alone
with the 4 kids right now, but it wouldn't hurt to try more often when
DH is home to take some time together....

<<I'm trying really hard not to "Send him in his room with no
supper">>

Have you ever sent him to his room with no supper? Honestly?
NO!!! I couldn't do that, but lately, the idea comes up as a "Maybe if
you tried this he'd understand". I *know* it wouldn't work, and I've
never done it, it probably comes from friends I know who make their kids
behave with reasonings like these. The farthest I've been is no desert,
usually because he's goofing around with his food and hasn't eaten for
like 15 minutes and I know he isn't hungry. It'll usually be a "fruit
or yogourt desert instead of ..." but even then, if I've made a special
desert and I know they're not eating because they know what's coming, I
wouldn't deprive him of it...

Because that's withholding love and food, and neither will ever make a
boy
nicer or calmer.

My guess from what you wrote is that you've been pushing him away
instead of
drawing him nearer, and that your "natural consequences" haven't been
too
natural.

** That's what I'm scared of. I feel like I can't let go of a lot of
his "goofyness" and it's making me resentful and all. I started getting
frustrated about this situation about 6 months ago when we tried to go
camping and on various outings and he'd just be plain dangerous and so
hard to bring around that it's not worth the outing just because of all
the frustration it brings to everyone else in the family. I do accept a
lot ( I think so, anyways!) but because of his big ideas, I'm often
scared of letting him go, and I guess he doesn't like being close to us,
he want's to explore (which is legitimate) but there's a security
perimiter (within sight in woods, or even earshot) in case anything
happens, which he just can't stand, he's always pushing the limit, mine,
not his.

As for natural consequences, how far do they have to go?? I mean, I have
a problem with letting him burn himself on the campfire, but then again
if it's what it takes, should it be acceptable? How about meals? How
much bad manners should be acceptable?? Maybe my "danger zone" is too
fluffy and I should let him bump himself a couple of times??

Writing this, I feel I'm trying to heal the wrong problem. I'm trying
to make his world better, but not our relationship. I guess I should
start by trying to be more "in-tune" with HIS needs and try really hard
to satisfy them before trying to solve the other things. They might go
away on their own with more love and patience towards him instead of
resentfullness

Thank you,

Genevieve




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Genevieve Labonté

Thank you Julie, this made me cry! And think alot!

He can either go through it feeling like even his mom doesn't like him
or he
can go through it feeling like his mom would help him if she only knew
how.

This is **SO** beautiful, I'm keeping it on my fridge for rocky road
times, it'll help me grow instead of get mad at him.

Thank you.

Genevieve




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Genevieve Labonté

This is something that I've considered and I even went to a
naturopath(guess that would be the english word :) ) who specialises in
ADHD and all. She does some chemical things with pee to see stress
levels and absorbtions to calcium and intestines. The results were
quite astonishing, they topped just about every chart(on the wrong side
:-/ ). She suggested we do a hair test to see if he has some chemical
buildup from vaccination (something I wouldn't do again!). She said it
could help some things but wouldn't make him an angel... Gosh, I'm not
asking for that much :-) I'm still juggling if I'm going to persue that
alley, we'll see. I didn't have time yet to research this enough to
make a decision.

Thanks for you input,

Genevieve


Well, I can offer a bit. I'm ADD (NOT saying your son is :) ) and
there are some similarities I can speak to. Not looking at you when he's
talking to you for instance. Not a big deal for most for some that can
be just too intense, like talking to someone and having them continually
kiss or hug you. Not having a clue as to what you just said...I still
have problems with that all the time and people have to repeat
themselves. Either I'm deep in thought or the words just seem to pass in
and out too quickly.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/6/04 7:11:43 PM, fihz@... writes:

<< As for natural consequences, how far do they have to go?? I mean, I have
a problem with letting him burn himself on the campfire, but then again
if it's what it takes, should it be acceptable? >>

I'm not advising natural consequences (as in letting him get lost in a crowd
or letting him burn himself) but am way against people calling punishments
"natural," and I was afraid maybe you were doing that.

<<How about meals? How
much bad manners should be acceptable?? >>

Depends on your priority for meals. If it's to get food into him, make food
he likes and don't try to get him to eat what he doesn't like. If it's to
"learn table manners" or be at the table as a family, then you have priorities
that will cause problems that I've chosen not to deal with with my kids. I go
with the "get food into them" priority.

<< I'm trying to make his world better, but not our relationship. >>

La Leche League taught me the coolest thing: they said you're not your
child's adversary, you're his partner.


Good luck!

Sandra

Tia Leschke

>
>
>This is **SO** beautiful, I'm keeping it on my fridge for rocky road
>times, it'll help me grow instead of get mad at him.

I love the way you put that.
And welcome from another Canadian - on the (usually) wet coast.
Tia

pam sorooshian

Genevieve can you describe his behavior a little more? Give a couple of
actual examples of situations that really occurred in the last day or
two and describe exactly what he is doing and saying in response to
what?

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Fetteroll

on 1/6/04 8:53 PM, Genevieve Labonté at fihz@... wrote:

> I've
> explained to him what could happen and let him long enough he has to
> explain to a guard who he is and that he's looking for his parents, but
> he just doesn't get it!

There's two possibilities that I can think of. One is that he's feeling
controlled so he's going to want to seize any opportunity he can to feel in
control and powerful.

Yes, running off into a dense crowd isn't an appropriate time to sieze
control! But the seizing control is a symptom of the control he feels
elsewhere in his life. If he doesn't feel that sense of being controled
elsewhere, then he won't need to seize inappropriate times to assert his own
control.

The other thought is: You're speaking a foreign language to him. He may not
be developmentally ready to process what you're saying in the way he needs
to understand. You can be plain as plain but he's just not ready to
understand. And if he can't understand the idea of safety, then it's still
your job to be by his side while he explores.

You might try talking about taking off on his own before you go into a
crowded situation. Not in a rulish way, but in an informational way. Expect
that he's not going to understand and it's still your responsibility to be
with him.

You might try having a conversation with him at some relaxed time, like when
you're in the car together going for ice cream (or hot chocolate depending
where you are right now ;-) Talk about what he feels when he runs off. What
is it he's thinking? Ask him if when he's headed off if he thinks at all
about what you've discussed with him about the dangers.

Don't judge his answers. Don't even think about what he should be thinking
or doing. That will just clam him up and you want him to open up, confess to
you the things he'd privately tell a friend about what's wrong in his life.
You're just trying to get information from him so you can think up better
ways for you all to be happy.

I think the standard way of approaching problems with kids is to 1) identify
the problem, 2) come up with a solution and then 3) turn the solution the
parent comes up with into the problem that needs solved. So instead of the
problem being helping him explore safely, the problem becomes how to make
him obey the rules you've come up with to fix the original problem.

Try brainstorming solutions with him. Tell him you're concerned about his
safety and you're wondering if he can help you come up with ways you can
both get what you want: you can feel he's safe and he can explore to his
heart's content. Maybe think of him as though he were a 21 year old with the
understanding that he doesn't need to do what you tell him any more. So if
you want him to do something, it has to be by mutual agreement.

Focus on both of your feelings and needs. See this as a negotiation between
two people with needs that clash and you're trying to find a way to get both
needs met, not have the "most important" need override the "less important"
need. From his point of view, his need is way more important than yours.
Treat them as equally important and work towards something you can both be
happy with.

If he can't meet your need to keep him safe, then maybe the thing to do is
avoid large crowds unless it's a kid request as much as possible until he is
old enough to understand. Not as a punishment, but as a family reality that
it's just not possible at this time.

> Maybe I don't "get" the whole natural
> consequence thing. I get the main idea, but it seems that when it's out
> of "easy" borders, I just chicken out and can't let go.

Kids want to know they can depend on us to keep them safe while they explore
the world. They'd want to be stopped before stepping in front of a car. If
they want to explore something in a crowded place, they don't want to be
stopped. They want someone there "fighting off the tigers" so they can
explore.

I hadn't thought about it like this before, but parents often use the term
"natural consequences" in the same way they'd use parentally imposed
consequences. Both uses are coming from the mindset of wanting the child to
do what they parent thinks they should. So the choice for the parent is to
impose consequences when the child does something he shouldn't, or to let
the child suffer the natural consequences and learn the lesson the parent
wants.

That isn't the point people are trying to make. What people are discussing
is helping kids explore the world safely. So the main goal is exploring the
world. That's the focus. And then our job, the one the kids are trusting us
to do, is to keep them safe while doing it.

So really natural consequences don't come into the picture. Natural
consequencs aren't a tool for us to use to control or mold kids. Natural
consequences are just a part of reality like gravity.

> The farthest I've been is no desert,
> usually because he's goofing around with his food and hasn't eaten for
> like 15 minutes and I know he isn't hungry.

I can see you're trying to avoid this but it might help you avoid even
backing yourself into this trap by giving him ownership of what he puts into
his body. Don't try to second guess him on whether he's hungry or what his
body needs. If he's not eating, maybe he's just not in the mood for what's
in front of him. It's helped me understand that feeling when I try to finish
a bowl of cereal after I'm full and it's starting to look pretty repulsive.
Look at an uneaten meal as a plate full of food that you'd find hard to eat
like beef tongue and then having someone decide you weren't hungry and could
have a choice between the tripe dessert or no dessert but not the good
dessert.

Joyce

Fetteroll

on 1/6/04 5:27 PM, Genevieve Labonté at fihz@... wrote:

> can't stay still at the table with *minimal* manners

Don't make him sit at the table?

When there are multiple goals for an activity, the goals tend to interfer
with each other.

I'm thinking that unconsiously the goals of dinner time for you are: eating,
learning proper etiquette, family time.

I think it makes things much easier to focus on just one goal and maybe a
subgoal. Make dinner time just about eating for those who are hungry. If
he's hungry before dinner, let him have something to eat and then let him
join you at the dinner table if he wants.

Coinciding family time with dinner time is convenient. Imposing it, though,
is trying to create a Norman Rockwell illusion. If you want everyone
together, then figure out ways that people will *want* to all be together,
rather than creating an atmosphere of force that will make them want to flee
as soon as possible.

Table etiquette isn't rocket science. It doesn't take 17 years to learn. ;-)

My daughter used to love to sprawl on the table to eat. In many parents'
eyes they'd assume she wasn't learning good manners and would figure that
was proper ettiquette. And yet even though I never told her not to, she
never did it at anyone else's house nor at a restaurant and did eventually
out grow it. But even if she hadn't been conscious of the clues around her
from other people's behavior and I'd needed to point it out, people are
perfectly capable of understanding that different places call for different
behavior. They can understand that appropriate behavior in one place can be
inappropriate other places.

> I explain to him where we're going, what we will do
> there, and why we HAVE to go today and not later when I can go alone, or
> what I expect from him ( no crazy running around the pool, for him to
> stay close to us in a crowdy place, etc...)

Explain, but expect him to be who he is.

Have you read Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka and The
Explosive Child by Dr. Ross Greene? There might be some wisdom you can apply
to your situation in those.

Joyce

Fetteroll

on 1/6/04 9:36 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> Depends on your priority for meals. If it's to get food into him, make food
> he likes and don't try to get him to eat what he doesn't like. If it's to
> "learn table manners" or be at the table as a family, then you have priorities
> that will cause problems that I've chosen not to deal with with my kids. I go
> with the "get food into them" priority.

Hey, honestly I did't copy!

I didn't even read ahead!

But it's often useful to hear the same thing said independently by different
people. :-)

Joyce

Danielle Conger

Dawn writes:
Okay, since I'm ADD I'll just approach it from there...It may be food dyes, allergies, type of discipline, something else but others on this list are more qualified to speak to those.

My guy is 3.5, and I'm exploring the food sensitivity avenue with him. He is much like you've described, but I'm really trying to avoid any kind of testing or labeling with him. Everyday, I'm just thankful that he's not going into a school setting because there's no way he'd survive there.

Sam has good days and bad days, so I'm hopeful that there may be some kind of food trigger that could help us a bit. I am reading _Is This Your Child_ by Dorris Rapp and looking into the Feingold diet, which has been found useful for ADHD as well-- www.feingold.org is their website, I think. Right now, I'm keeping a food diary and trying to eliminate much of the processed foods and colorings from our home. The thing that I don't like about this is the focus on the negative. The food diary has you record everything your child eats and observe their behavior throughout the day, the idea being that you will begin to see connections over time. I don't like always having to focus on the negative with him--it's much better to do what Julie suggested and revel in the positive! But the feingold diet allows lots of substitutions, so it's very livable, in my opinion. You might not be able to have one brand of potato chips, but you can have this brand, kind of thing. If I end up trying to eliminate dairy, that will be a whole 'nother story!

Sam spends many nights in our bed for a good portion of the night. He's not sleeping well, which I know from when he comes in and when he leaves. I'm wondering if this is a food sensitivity sign. He also gets red-rimmed ears and red cheeks; he chews on the corners of his blanket and bites his finger and toe-nails to the quick--I've _never_ had to trim his nails that I can recall. He often has a hard time sitting still, though he can focus on the computer for a long time.

Most days I spend gently trying to talk him down from some potential crisis or avoiding something that I'm pretty sure will set him off, and that gets downright exhausting! I can't even imagine someone else dealing with him in a school setting--patience would be no where in sight, I'm sure! I'm hoping to find something useful with the food sensitivity thing because that might give us one more tool to work with. Often, he's not even really upset about whatever it is that's he fussing about; it's more like something inside him that is making him _have_ to fuss or lash out. Even when I remove or correct whatever it is, he's still way off and finds another focus for his anger, you know? That's what makes me wonder if it's a food reaction.

Genevieve wrote:
I started getting frustrated about this situation about 6 months ago when we tried to go camping and on various outings and he'd just be plain dangerous and so hard to bring around that it's not worth the outing just because of all the frustration it brings to everyone else in the family.

Yesterday, we went to a homeschool ice skate, and he was being a real bear. I spent the whole time with him not being able to pay much attention to my girls (5 and 6) who were skating for the first time, too. Thank goodness they had skate buddies (pvc walker things) to hang on to, or it just wouldn't have worked! Well, at one point I was taking him off the ice to try to talk with him and calm him down, when one mother laughingly commented that we were often in that situation and no wonder I stayed so skinny. Sam often makes our outings far more difficult than they would otherwise be, even though he really wants to be there doing whatever it is that we're doing. I don't want to leave him home because I feel that would be punitive. Sam is Sam. He has always been high need and will someday be an absolutely incredible person with all this energy. My job right now is to help him learn how to deal with who he is in a way that works for him and to protect him from all the negativity that society would heap on him in the name of education or medical well-being.

I certainly don't have any answers yet. I may never have any more answer than Sam is Sam. But, I can understand your frustration and exhaustion. I'm trying to find as many positive tools as possible to live with and love my guy. Unschooling, many tenets of TCS, an open bed, attachment parenting, my constant loving presence, and now diet changes are all the tools in my toolbox right now. Seek out the positive tools and leave behind the negative ones that tell you, "what this boy really needs is discipline!" There are many people and experts out there who will say that, and as tempting as it might be to buy into it, those methods will never be anything but a temporary crutch that serves to cripple you both in the long run.

Hang in there Genevieve! The best thing you can do is find as many places as you can that keep your parenting on track and help you get through the frustrating times. This support might come from reading and re-reading passages in helpful books like Joyce recommended, from this unschooling list, from local groups like La Leche League that preach and practice attachment parenting--all of these work for me. The key is to stay positive and focused on the good things and the kind of parent you want to be.

--danielle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

J. Stauffer

Your son sounds so much like mine. He is a real pain at meals....I love him
dearly but he is hard to work with. Danny thinks EVERYTHING he does is
funny. He lives entirely in the moment and seems truly at a loss when
people have asked him not to do something over and over and then finally get
aggravated at him.

He runs off in crowds or even the grocery store. He wont stay out of the
road. He is really loud and intrusive at meals (and we have no rules about
what you eat, when you eat, if you have to come to the table at all, etc..)
If Danny knows I would like him to behave in a certain way, like if have to
go in and talk to Adriane's coach so I have some coloring books, or small
toys or whatever that he usually loves to play with, he will do the opposite
and think it is funny and a game.

Even when I am talking to him about the seriousness of his behavior and its
consequences (why he can't play outside until I have a minute to come out
with him because he won't stay out of the street), he laughs and grins.

It is really hard but someday this independence, this joyous attitude will
serve these guys well.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Genevieve Labonté" <fihz@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 8:10 PM
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Discipline, frustrations and all that
goes with it


> This is something that I've considered and I even went to a
> naturopath(guess that would be the english word :) ) who specialises in
> ADHD and all. She does some chemical things with pee to see stress
> levels and absorbtions to calcium and intestines. The results were
> quite astonishing, they topped just about every chart(on the wrong side
> :-/ ). She suggested we do a hair test to see if he has some chemical
> buildup from vaccination (something I wouldn't do again!). She said it
> could help some things but wouldn't make him an angel... Gosh, I'm not
> asking for that much :-) I'm still juggling if I'm going to persue that
> alley, we'll see. I didn't have time yet to research this enough to
> make a decision.
>
> Thanks for you input,
>
> Genevieve
>
>
> Well, I can offer a bit. I'm ADD (NOT saying your son is :) ) and
> there are some similarities I can speak to. Not looking at you when he's
> talking to you for instance. Not a big deal for most for some that can
> be just too intense, like talking to someone and having them continually
> kiss or hug you. Not having a clue as to what you just said...I still
> have problems with that all the time and people have to repeat
> themselves. Either I'm deep in thought or the words just seem to pass in
> and out too quickly.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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