Annette

> When my kids start watching endless tv I ask myself,
> "What am I not doing with them that they can watch tv
> all day long?"
>
> Are you playing games and interacting with him several
> hours a day? Do you have him help you make cookies and
> go to the store and hang out the laundry and take him
> to the park or playground? Are you reading books he
> likes to him and washing the puppy and taking long
> walks in the woods?
>
> Unschooling isn't about letting the kids go it alone.
> It is about freeing them up and helping them discover.
> Unschooling actually seems to take more parental
> involvement than school-out-of-a-box homeschooling.
>
> Just my .02,
> =====
> --Susan in VA
> WifetoVegman
>
> What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for
> children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school
than
> the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt

Now this really helps me think. I have been trying to do more things
with him. Usually I would suggest things and he would just turn me down
to watch TV. This Christmas we bought him some board games and set up
his play area for him to use a bit more and he has been asking to play
more. We try to play as much as he wants.

Books, he isn't into reading yet. I have tried this and there are a
select few that he wants to read, which is fine. He has helped me with
laundry and such before, but its more of a chore for him and he chooses
to sit and watch TV instead! Occasionally I DO shut the TV off and then
he is forced to do other things and he enjoys it. It must be that he is
so comfortable with doing nothing and just sitting and not thinking.

Is it still ok to shut it off and "make him" do other things? Should I
have a talk with him about the overuse first? We have tried to tell him
we would like him to do other things, but I get the frowns and attitude.
I really don't feel its healthy for a 6yo to watch as much as he does
and vegetate. We also live in a pretty urban area - no woods here!! We
have certain play dates we go to and those days are great for his
imagination.

Annette,Jason
& Our 3 Boujas
Nicolas, Joseph
& peanut due 1/12/04

J. Stauffer

If you have only been homeschooling for a few months, and within that few
months, there have been back and forth between structure and not, and within
that you have been giving him the "evil eye" about not doing things YOU see
as beneficial........you can see where your son may get the idea that
unlimited tv is very temporary and that he needs to gorge while he can.

I have a suggestion.....think of your very favorite thing to
eat....chocolate, ice cream, enchiladas....whatever. Go get a whole bunch
of it and sit down and eat it....eat it all day, eat nothing but that all
day and all day tomorrow and the day after, etc.. My bet is that you will
eventually want to do something else. It may not be today or tomorrow but
eventually you are going to want to expand your horizons. Your son will
too.....

Now think of your favorite thing....think that you can have all you want
until the food police come and take them away. Then you have to wait a
period of time until the food police go away and then you can maybe have
some more but only until the food police come back. My bet would be that
you would gorge when given the chance too. That is why diets don't work and
America is so fat. Works with just about everyting.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Annette" <boujamama@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 8:21 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] RE: TV was Preparing


>
> > When my kids start watching endless tv I ask myself,
> > "What am I not doing with them that they can watch tv
> > all day long?"
> >
> > Are you playing games and interacting with him several
> > hours a day? Do you have him help you make cookies and
> > go to the store and hang out the laundry and take him
> > to the park or playground? Are you reading books he
> > likes to him and washing the puppy and taking long
> > walks in the woods?
> >
> > Unschooling isn't about letting the kids go it alone.
> > It is about freeing them up and helping them discover.
> > Unschooling actually seems to take more parental
> > involvement than school-out-of-a-box homeschooling.
> >
> > Just my .02,
> > =====
> > --Susan in VA
> > WifetoVegman
> >
> > What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for
> > children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school
> than
> > the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
>
> Now this really helps me think. I have been trying to do more things
> with him. Usually I would suggest things and he would just turn me down
> to watch TV. This Christmas we bought him some board games and set up
> his play area for him to use a bit more and he has been asking to play
> more. We try to play as much as he wants.
>
> Books, he isn't into reading yet. I have tried this and there are a
> select few that he wants to read, which is fine. He has helped me with
> laundry and such before, but its more of a chore for him and he chooses
> to sit and watch TV instead! Occasionally I DO shut the TV off and then
> he is forced to do other things and he enjoys it. It must be that he is
> so comfortable with doing nothing and just sitting and not thinking.
>
> Is it still ok to shut it off and "make him" do other things? Should I
> have a talk with him about the overuse first? We have tried to tell him
> we would like him to do other things, but I get the frowns and attitude.
> I really don't feel its healthy for a 6yo to watch as much as he does
> and vegetate. We also live in a pretty urban area - no woods here!! We
> have certain play dates we go to and those days are great for his
> imagination.
>
> Annette,Jason
> & Our 3 Boujas
> Nicolas, Joseph
> & peanut due 1/12/04
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/30/03 8:38:36 AM, boujamama@... writes:

<< Occasionally I DO shut the TV off and then
he is forced to do other things and he enjoys it. It must be that he is
so comfortable with doing nothing and just sitting and not thinking. >>

Do you really think watching tv is "doing nothing and just sitting and not
thinking"?
I'm sure it's not.

If you "shut the TV off" against his will, would you do that to your husband?
A guest? Your neighbor?

It doesn't sound healthy or loving.

<<Is it still ok to shut it off and "make him" do other things? Should I
have a talk with him about the overuse first?>>

Neither. Provide something better. LOTS of choices better. Not just two
choices. Get out and about. What you're describing isn't unschooling. It's
still control, it's just neglectful control.

Here's an article called "Disposable Checklists for Unschoolers" that should
give you lots of easy ideas to transition:

http://www.home-ed-magazine.com/HEM/194/jaunschooling.html

And here's one on deschooling. Parents have to deschool MUCH more than
children do:

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

And because you seem to be seeing your choices as either "forcing" him to
stop or letting him watch it all day, here's an article on balance:

http://www.home-ed-magazine.com/HEM/206/ndunschool.html

-=We also live in a pretty urban area - no woods here!! We
have certain play dates we go to and those days are great for his
imagination. -=-

With urban, you get shops and museums. He shouldn't have to wait for play
dates to interact with people and see new things! Out, out, out!

Sandra

Danielle E. Conger

At 09:21 AM 12/30/2003 -0500, Annette wrote:
>This Christmas we bought him some board games and set up
>his play area for him to use a bit more and he has been asking to play
>more. We try to play as much as he wants.

Having things where they are visible really helps a lot. Things that are
out are much more inviting than stuff that's behind cabinet doors or in a
closet. If you have a place where you can set up some nice markers, pencils
and paper, that is much more attractive an option than a bunch of stuff
hidden in a drawer somewhere. This is why I love shelves, though I realize
not everyone wants or can live this way.

Invitations also work better than suggestions. Take out a game, start
setting it up and invite him to come and play. Same thing with art, baking,
whatever. If you can't have it out for them to see all the time, then you
pull it out. If they say no, play around with it yourself, chances are
they'll come join you. My kids are far more likely to go outside and play
if I put on my shoes and coat and invite them out than if I just suggest
they go run around outside, know what I mean?

--danielle

Wife2Vegman

--- "J. Stauffer" <jnjstau@...> wrote:
> If you have only been homeschooling for a few
> months, and within that few
> months, there have been back and forth between
> structure and not, and within
> that you have been giving him the "evil eye" about
> not doing things YOU see
> as beneficial........you can see where your son may
> get the idea that
> unlimited tv is very temporary and that he needs to
> gorge while he can.
>
> I have a suggestion.....think of your very favorite
> thing to
> eat....chocolate, ice cream, enchiladas....whatever.
> Go get a whole bunch
> of it and sit down and eat it....eat it all day,
> eat nothing but that all
> day and all day tomorrow and the day after, etc..
> My bet is that you will
> eventually want to do something else. It may not be
> today or tomorrow but
> eventually you are going to want to expand your
> horizons. Your son will
> too.....


This is sooo true! TV, Soda pop, candy, computer
time, bedtime...

When I let go of the limits on soda, I thought I would
go crazy. My kids were drinking like 4 cases of soda
a week (2 kids...the youngest hates soda).

I hung in there and every time they asked, I said
"yes" and meant it.

Last week I bought a case of soda, and it lasted until
yesterday, when my nephews came over to visit and
drank three or four a piece. The younger one asked my
12yo if he wanted a soda and he said, "Nah, I have a
glass of milk instead."

The nephews love my house, where there are no limits
on bedtime and food, and so they party hard while they
are here, unless their mom catches them, then she
makes them stop.

My two younger kids go to bed pretty early, because
they still like to have me tuck them in and say
prayers, and I want to be in bed by 11 or so. So when
the nephs are over and want to stay up all night, my
kids want to go to bed, and my nephs think they are
big party poopers. My 14yo usually stays up until
about 2am.





=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman

What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt

__________________________________
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[email protected]

In a message dated 12/30/2003 10:38:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
boujamama@... writes:
We also live in a pretty urban area - no woods here!! We
have certain play dates we go to and those days are great for his
imagination.

I wonder if he would like more time with friends closer to his age for
imaginative play. My children will play imaginative games for hours and find this a
lot more fun than TV. I think some adults have trouble fitting into this
type of play (too controlling or get bored) and his brother may be too young. I
also live in an urban area, and I have a steady stream of neighborhood kids in
my house. This is probably one of the few places where they feel free to
play as they want. Maybe you could watch for neighborhood kids with nothing to
do who might want to play indoors or out with him. Be open to the idea that
the ideal playmate might be older or younger or not quite who you would expect.

--Jacqueline (with many *almost* daughters and sons in my neighborhood)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
>
>Books, he isn't into reading yet. I have tried this and there are a
>select few that he wants to read, which is fine.

Do you mean he wants to read or have read to him. I hope you're reading to
him whenever he'll let you. <g> If he doesn't want to turn the TV off to be
read to, find a time when the TV isn't on, or when a show has just ended
and he doesn't know what will be on next. Maybe try to find some books that
would tie in with something he's been watching. (You *do* watch with him,
don't you, at least some of the time?)
Tia

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/30/2003 1:56:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
danielle.conger@... writes:


> Having things where they are visible really helps a lot. Things that are
> out are much more inviting than stuff that's behind cabinet doors or in a
> closet.

Hmmm..but I was wondering if things are always VISIBLE aren't they
"saturated" with it just by seeing it all the time... they don't really "notice" it
anymore or desire to use it.
It seems when I take things out from a cabinet , they are excited ..it's
"new" ...they haven't seen it in awhile.
I'm debating what to do in our new house..open shelves or cabinets for
all the games, arts and crafts and other cool stuff.

But then again..in our new life of unschooling , I suppose if I was to
invite either child to play a game that was in full view
each day, the answer would still be yes. Right?

~Marcia..who seems to be going through the TV obsession and moodiness with
her 7ds and is loving all the suggestions


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

catherine aceto

Wow -- fabulous post. That is the best short summary of this position that I have ever seen.

-Cat
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Stauffer
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] RE: TV was Preparing


If you have only been homeschooling for a few months, and within that few
months, there have been back and forth between structure and not, and within
that you have been giving him the "evil eye" about not doing things YOU see
as beneficial........you can see where your son may get the idea that
unlimited tv is very temporary and that he needs to gorge while he can.

I have a suggestion.....think of your very favorite thing to
eat....chocolate, ice cream, enchiladas....whatever. Go get a whole bunch
of it and sit down and eat it....eat it all day, eat nothing but that all
day and all day tomorrow and the day after, etc.. My bet is that you will
eventually want to do something else. It may not be today or tomorrow but
eventually you are going to want to expand your horizons. Your son will
too.....

Now think of your favorite thing....think that you can have all you want
until the food police come and take them away. Then you have to wait a
period of time until the food police go away and then you can maybe have
some more but only until the food police come back. My bet would be that
you would gorge when given the chance too. That is why diets don't work and
America is so fat. Works with just about everyting.

Julie S.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Danielle E. Conger

At 01:53 PM 12/30/2003 -0800, Tia Leschke wrote:
>If he doesn't want to turn the TV off to be
>read to, find a time when the TV isn't on, or when a show has just ended
>and he doesn't know what will be on next.

We don't have a tv in our kitchen, so we do a lot of reading while having
lunch or snack. Also at bedtime, sitting outside by the pond, while the
kids are coloring, doing puzzles, etc. Reading does not have to be an
exclusive event.

--danielle

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/30/03 6:01:37 PM, MarSi77@... writes:

<< I'm debating what to do in our new house..open shelves or cabinets for
all the games, arts and crafts and other cool stuff.
>>

Cycle them through.

Whatever has come out new here gets played with, and what's been out too long
becomes invisible.

I consider that a big part of my "strewing," is setting things out that
haven't been out for a while, and putting the other stuff away.

Sandra

melissa4123

<<I consider that a big part of my "strewing," is setting things out
that haven't been out for a while, and putting the other stuff away.

Sandra>>

Isn't this the truth? I found out (although it should have occurred
to me much sooner) when we moved from CA to NV. We formaly moved to
NV in Aug but our house but our home wasn't ready to move into until
Nov. In the mean time, we lived in a residential hotel which means
that we had to severly limit what we could take with us to the hotel
and what had to go to storage. My daughter had very few "things" to
play with. When we finally moved into our home and she had her toy
box back.....you would have thought that Santa had come early. Toys
that she had stoped playing with even before we moved were suddenly
much more interesting and fun. We hardly had to buy her anything
for Christmas.....she was so excited to have her "old" toys back
that she played with them like they were brand new.

Melissa

Tia Leschke

>
>We don't have a tv in our kitchen, so we do a lot of reading while having
>lunch or snack. Also at bedtime, sitting outside by the pond, while the
>kids are coloring, doing puzzles, etc. Reading does not have to be an
>exclusive event.

Absolutely. Some kids *have to* <g> be doing something else while listening.
Tia

liza sabater

On Tuesday, December 30, 2003, at 09:12 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

> I consider that a big part of my "strewing," is setting things out that
> haven't been out for a while, and putting the other stuff away.

I love that word. About a year ago there was this huge debate about
strewing on this list. It just put everything into perspective for me.
As you have said many times, it takes more involvement for a parent to
unschool than to school-at-home. With strewing, I sometimes leave
things out the night before to see whether they will use them or not.
Like paper, sticker, markers, beads, puzzles, mazes, blocks. It's an
invitation to try something different in the morning. Sometimes it sits
there on the table way into the afternoon and then, all of a sudden,
they're ready to use the stuff. Sometimes, it's left completely
untouched. But it keeps me on my toes because they'll tell me what they
are really interested in doing. And if we're stuck, then it's time to
get out of the apt. and do something physical. For days, even weeks.

l i z a, nyc
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/31/03 9:50:33 AM, listdiva@... writes:

<< Sometimes it sits
there on the table way into the afternoon and then, all of a sudden,
they're ready to use the stuff. Sometimes, it's left completely
untouched. >>

Plastic tub of magnets is one of our "best sellers." Then it gets put away
for a few months, but when it's first out, it draws everyone magnetically!!

And then it gets boring after a few days.

Sandra

liza sabater

On Wednesday, December 31, 2003, at 02:28 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

> Plastic tub of magnets is one of our "best sellers." Then it gets put
> away
> for a few months, but when it's first out, it draws everyone
> magnetically!!

you crack me up!

l i z a, nyc
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Olga

I completely agree and have really only been learning that more
recently. My 5yo ds is really pretty happy playing with anything
and on his own. If I ask him if he wants to do something he usually
turns me down. This could get pretty frustrating, for ME! LAtely,
I just start building with the Legos and he joins in. We got an art
table for Xmas so everything is more accessbile for him and his
brother. I also leave our back doors open to the back yard and
patio so there is no boundary between the spaces. They do not have
to ask to go out and I do not have to offer. It is available at
their leisure. The weather has been wonderful the last few months
here in south Florida so they have really been enjoying the
outside. Also, if they are glued to the TV sometimes I will just
offer playdough or the park or something of the sort and they will
choose that. Most kids will not choose TV in in spectrum of other
things. My kids are usually attached to it when I am really busy
and they drift up from the playroom. Sometimes, I just remember to
switch the TV off when they have left it. I have learned to be
pretty free with TV time here. I have found that sometimes they are
actively playing and then pass the TV which was left on and BOOM
they are absorbed by it. If they want to turn it back on, that's
fine but at least that way it is a conscious choice.

Olga :)
--- In [email protected], "Danielle E. Conger"
<danielle.conger@c...> wrote:
> At 09:21 AM 12/30/2003 -0500, Annette wrote:
> >This Christmas we bought him some board games and set up
> >his play area for him to use a bit more and he has been asking to
play
> >more. We try to play as much as he wants.
>
> Having things where they are visible really helps a lot. Things
that are
> out are much more inviting than stuff that's behind cabinet doors
or in a
> closet. If you have a place where you can set up some nice
markers, pencils
> and paper, that is much more attractive an option than a bunch of
stuff
> hidden in a drawer somewhere. This is why I love shelves, though I
realize
> not everyone wants or can live this way.
>
> Invitations also work better than suggestions. Take out a game,
start
> setting it up and invite him to come and play. Same thing with
art, baking,
> whatever. If you can't have it out for them to see all the time,
then you
> pull it out. If they say no, play around with it yourself, chances
are
> they'll come join you. My kids are far more likely to go outside
and play
> if I put on my shoes and coat and invite them out than if I just
suggest
> they go run around outside, know what I mean?
>
> --danielle