[email protected]

Hi, all!

I was becoming uncomfortable with some of the postings on this list and I
thought it was just me, but there are a few others as well, so if I might
have your attention for a moment I would like to present some reminders and a
proposal.

www.unschooling.com is an incredible resource for the homeschooling
community. There is a mountain of material on homeschooling in general, but
it's hard to find some clear, quality unschooling support. Not only are
there essays and FAQs and message boards, there is a mail list!

If those message boards fill up with things which aren't unschooling related,
or if the mailing list goes off on structured-learning tangents and doesn't
come back, it will be harder for people to get the focussed support they
should be able to expect in an area called unschooling.com.

There are lots of people on this list and I'm glad of it, and I don't work
for the forum, I'm just someone on the list. But as others have inquired of
me as though they think I might be able to redirect the flow of these
mailings, I am bravely going to ask that conversations which encourage
structured learning over unschooling be minimized or eliminated and that
conversations which have nothing to do with either of those be taken to
private e-mail.

Now someone who actually works on the forum might come along and ask me to
quit asking anyone to change anything, but that's a risk I'll take for the
sake of helping keep this list fascinating and useful for the unschoolers who
might sign on just now as I'm writing this, or next weekend when a bunch of
us are away, or next month.

I'd also ask that the most experienced homeschoolers among us go and post
something in the message boards at www.unschooling.com at least once a week,
if not more. If we spend all our energy here we won't be building as
glorious a life-changing resource on the internet. We can keep children in
distant states from suffering the indignity of being put through school at
home if we provide their parents with inspiring alternative information.

Thank you for your time and consideration.


Sandra Dodd

::she just is::

No, you're making a lot of sense, Sandra. That's why unschooling.com is
called unschooling.com and not homeschooling.com

I think a lot of the talk about curriculum, though, is more about resources
for unschoolers than actual "schoolwork". I know that I've been better able
to understand some things through curriculum sometimes.

I understand what you're worrying about, though. :) ~Eryn

==
"I dreamed I was a butterfly, flitting around in the sky;
then I awoke. Now I wonder: Am I a man who dreamt of
being a butterfuly, or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am
a man?" - Chuang Tsu
http://www.camenaworks.com/Eryn/
#24591173 ::she just is::
AIM :: Opal Fayre

>Hi, all!
>
>I was becoming uncomfortable with some of the postings on this list and I
>thought it was just me, but there are a few others as well, so if I might
>have your attention for a moment I would like to present some reminders and
a
>proposal.
>
>www.unschooling.com is an incredible resource for the homeschooling
>community. There is a mountain of material on homeschooling in general,
but
>it's hard to find some clear, quality unschooling support. Not only are
>there essays and FAQs and message boards, there is a mail list!
>
>If those message boards fill up with things which aren't unschooling
related,
>or if the mailing list goes off on structured-learning tangents and doesn't
>come back, it will be harder for people to get the focussed support they
>should be able to expect in an area called unschooling.com.
>
>There are lots of people on this list and I'm glad of it, and I don't work
>for the forum, I'm just someone on the list. But as others have inquired
of
>me as though they think I might be able to redirect the flow of these
>mailings, I am bravely going to ask that conversations which encourage
>structured learning over unschooling be minimized or eliminated and that
>conversations which have nothing to do with either of those be taken to
>private e-mail.
>
>Now someone who actually works on the forum might come along and ask me to
>quit asking anyone to change anything, but that's a risk I'll take for the
>sake of helping keep this list fascinating and useful for the unschoolers
who
>might sign on just now as I'm writing this, or next weekend when a bunch of
>us are away, or next month.
>
>I'd also ask that the most experienced homeschoolers among us go and post
>something in the message boards at www.unschooling.com at least once a
week,
>if not more. If we spend all our energy here we won't be building as
>glorious a life-changing resource on the internet. We can keep children
in
>distant states from suffering the indignity of being put through school at
>home if we provide their parents with inspiring alternative information.
>
>Thank you for your time and consideration.
>
>
>Sandra Dodd

[email protected]

<<I think a lot of the talk about curriculum, though, is more about resources
for unschoolers than actual "schoolwork". I know that I've been better able
to understand some things through curriculum sometimes.>>

I'm afraid some of the newer unschoolers will think they might want to buy a
curriculum. It's not only unnecessary, it can be counterproductive. If we
don't get away from school concepts like "third grade science" and "second
grade reading" and "Jr. High math" we won't be unschooling, really. We'll be
holding our breath hoping for the best in the shade of an overwhelming
school-shaped structure which we're pretending to ignore.

Undo that structure. If as a mom you want to sneak a peek at a checklist or
a curriculum and you HAVE to do that to remain calm, then fine. But if you
press your children into a school-style form and decide on your success and
failure based on what the schools claim to be doing with and for children the
age your child is, it will be hard to give yourself the leeway to accept your
child's own pace, his own starts and lulls and frenzies and fallow seasons.

I think it will be more beneficial to those starting to unschool to hear how
they can do without a curriculum than to go to websites dedicated to the sale
of things they don't need in order to unschool and which might, in fact, keep
them from unschooling successfully. As surely as formula feeding "just half
the time" will sabotage a nursing relationship between mother and baby,
using a curriculum for some subjects and not others will ruin the integrity
of unschooling. A child whose parents don't really commit to unchooling can
receive the message that reading or math is REALLY important and couldn't
possibly be left up to him to learn for fun, but that science and music and
history and poetry are disposable and unnecessary and he can learn them or
not.

That's my concern.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/9/99 12:54:03 PM Central Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

<< I'd also ask that the most experienced homeschoolers among us go and post
something in the message boards at www.unschooling.com at least once a week,
if not more. If we spend all our energy here we won't be building as
glorious a life-changing resource on the internet. >>

I heartily second this notion! And after you have looked around at the
folders and topics, if you have any suggestions, please send your ideas and
requests in. Meeting the needs of the unschooling community is our primary
goal.

LisaBugg

Andi Kaufman

Sandra wrote:
A child whose parents don't really commit to unchooling can
>receive the message that reading or math is REALLY important and couldn't
>possibly be left up to him to learn for fun, but that science and music and
>history and poetry are disposable and unnecessary and he can learn them or
>not.

I understand your feelings and i pretty much agree about the list and
posting. But I am not sure i agree here. I would not say we use a
curriculum here. But I do need help from some workbooks and text books to
teach isaac what he wants to know. for example, he wasnt getting division
the way i was teaching him. yes he asked to learn it cus we have a game we
play that uses it so i got out a work books that explains how to do it and
i showed him that method. and it worked. It doesnt mean math is more
important then everything else.

although I do think there are certain things i want him to learn adn
certain things that help people in this world. Like dealing with others and
math and even english. However, i wont use a curriculum to teach them and i
take my cue from him. english can be tuaght by reading any books.

Andi...domestic goddess and active volunteer
mom to Isaac
tl2b@...

Never Underestimate the Power of This Woman!

Linda Wyatt

> From: Andi Kaufman <tl2b@...>

> english can be tuaght by reading any books.

What I'm wondering is why anyone uses the phrase "can be taught" at all,
especially in an unschooling forum.

It's this sort of language we need to be very aware of and careful about.

I'm far more interested in the ways in which people learn than in how
anything "can be taught". I don't *want* to teach my children. I don't
look for ways in which things can be taught, workbooks or not. I'm not
trying to get my children to be interested in or learn any particular
things. I have no need to do so, they do it quite well without my
interference. I have no list anywhere, even in my head, of what they need
to know or "cover", we simply don't think that way here.

I also have a problem understanding what people mean by "English" in this
context. I don't believe there is such a thing. There are lots of things
about language and words and writing and reading and thinking that are
interesting and useful to know. I don't think anyone is interested in
learning "English", the whole kit and kaboodle as a concrete single entity,
but most people are interested in bits of things here and there that might
fall under that subject in school.

I feel the same way about any of the "school subjects". History is not a
single thing. Math is not a thing. Those are very, very broad categories
into which many, many different things and kinds of things fall, and it's
those things that interest people, not the broad category. You can't teach
math or history or any broad subject any more than you could teach
"universe" or "infinity".


Linda

--
Linda Wyatt
hilinda@...
http://www.lightlink.com/hilinda
Learning everywhere, all the time.
Algebra before breakfast
"A lie, you see, no matter how often or how vociferously repeated, may be
mistaken for the truth, but it does not become the truth." - Adam Crown

Diana Asberry

Personally, I haven't been "doing" this for very long and along with my
children, am changing lots of "things" that were/weren't "conveyed" to me.
As with a habit, I may take longer than others to "understand" the
healthiest manner of living.
HMMM, does that mean, I'm learning, too?
And with all the "outsiders" who are "concerned" about our children,
sometimes checking off a list helps me to alleviate my insecurities.
Diana
:~)


----Original Message Follows----
From: Linda Wyatt <hilinda@...>
What I'm wondering is why anyone uses the phrase "can be taught" at
all,especially in an unschooling forum.
don't *want* to teach my children. I don't
look for ways in which things can be taught, workbooks or not. I'm not
trying to get my children to be interested in or learn any particular
things. I have no need to do so, they do it quite well without my
interference. I have no list anywhere, even in my head, of what they need
to know or "cover", we simply don't think that way here.
Linda
--
Linda Wyatt
hilinda@...



_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

Olivia

Thanks to all who helped me with resources for helping me write my first
homeschooling proposal for the town. I hope nobody misunderstood and
thought I was looking for a curriculum because I have no intent on using
one. As this is my first time writing a letter of intent to the
superintendent, I want it to sound meaty enough to pass muster without
saying that we'll be covering anything specific. That's no easy task, and I
don't want to spend my summer doing it. So some of the outlines and links
you have provided here have helped me get started and given me ideas on how
to word things. In this state, the school superintendent can (and did) ask
for an educational plan and a review of texts and instructional materials
to be used to determine the type of subjects to be covered. I guess you
have to talk a lot about what the child has been doing recently that
coordinates with the state's frameworks, and say something about expanding
on these themes as interest dictates??

Sorry if I took up too much space on this mailing list about this subject,
but as a new unschooler I have appreciated feedback about this irritating
part of the homeschooling process! What message board at uschooling.com
would address this topic?

Olivia



>I think a lot of the talk about curriculum, though, is more about resources
>for unschoolers than actual "schoolwork". I know that I've been better able
>to understand some things through curriculum sometimes.
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/9/99 8:48:01 PM Central Daylight Time,
tl2b@... writes:

<< Like dealing with others and
math and even english. However, i wont use a curriculum to teach them and i
take my cue from him. english can be tuaght by reading any books. >>


But, but......come over to my kitchen and sit with me for awhile and let's
chew on the idea that you won't use cirriculum to teach, you'll just use
other things. I have all kinds of tea, what's your favorite?? :)

See, it's not not using cirriculum that's the wonderful thing about
unschooling, it's the not teaching part. It's the learning that the kids
just do that's amazing. Now, in my home there are myraid things to use to
learn with, including *curriculum*.

It's a really fuzzy line at times, but I think what we are trying to say is
that once you shift your focus from not worrying about what you use to teach,
the next item is to shift from is the idea you need to teach. Which becomes
even more fuzzy when you think, "but I have to answer their questions!" Of
course we do. I have one child that is a champion question asker. <g>

If you work very hard at changing the language you use, it's much easier to
see unschooling clearly.

LisaBugg

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/9/99 12:54:03 PM EST, SandraDodd@... writes:

<< There are lots of people on this list and I'm glad of it >>
Sandra,
With all due respect, I don't personally know you, or your credentials, but,
as a homeschooling mom, wanting and needing a place to share, I think this
list is great, and should be left as it is. I don't want to offend you or
anyone else, but I feel that this list has helped a lot of people to voice
their fears and joys, and I don't think it should be regulated to what you
have suggested. People have to learn and grow as they go, and having a place
to voice their questions, uncertainties, and fears, as well as their triumphs
is the best thing that can happen to any viable group. Just my humble
opinion.
Thanks, Teresa ; >

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/9/1999 8:14:32 PM, hilinda@... wrote:

<<It's this sort of language we need to be very aware of and careful about.

I'm far more interested in the ways in which people learn than in how
anything "can be taught". >>

One good way to discover and weed out some of our school-based thinking is to
replace all phrases using "teach" with phrases using "learn." Learning is
an absolute. Teaching is very abstract and once removed from action.
"Teaching" is no more than talking about something, or demonstrating it, or
answering questions about it. It is possible to talk to a fence post,
demonstrate to the wall, or answer questions which were left in writing by
someone who is a thousand miles away now (physically or mentally).
"Teaching" has no object, really. Teaching is song and dance, possibly
without an audience.

"LEARNING," though is an entirely solid-state, tangible matter. Inside the
learner real connections are being made.

Another analogy in the "been there, done that" category: Women need to be
empowered to make their own informed decisions about pregnancy, childbirth,
and nursing. Even now, I'll hear a woman say, "My doctor won't let me [do
whatever]" or "My doctor says I can't go out of town."

I correct them gently, every time. I just rephrase: "You mean your doctor
recommends that you stay in town?" If they're resistent to the gentle
shift, if they don't get what I'm saying, I might say something stronger,
like "Is it the doctor's baby?" or "Why did you give the doctor the power
to tell you what to do?"

It's the same with education, the state, the school district, and teaching.

If pregnant-you says (and thinks) "My doctor won't let me eat bananas" it
will affect your self image, your freedom, your power, and your attitude
toward the ownership of the unborn baby. If an aspiring unschooler says and
believes, "The state makes me..." or "The district says we have to..." then
you might as well get a curriculum. If doing what you think a school
administrator "requires" is more important to you than empowering your child
to learn and empowering yourself to support and protect his learning
environment then unschooling might not be possible for you.

Much of this is attitude and confidence and self-assurance. If you believe
in theory that unschooling can work and you DO IT, and it works, you will
confidently continue. If you believe it but you don't try it, how can you
continue? How can you have seconds if you haven't had firsts??

If you don't believe it will work and you claim you tried it and it didn't
work, how could you have given it a fair trial if you never really took a
deep breath and jumped off that cliff? If you were standing holding on to
the teaching-branch on the edge of the cliff and just dangled your kid over
the edge and then brought him back and said "it didn't work," you haven't
unschooled.

Summertime is a good time for trial unschooling. If summer isn't supposed to
be learning time and kids learn a ton, why change anything when September
comes?

Sandra

sandy keane

>
> <<I think a lot of the talk about curriculum, though, is more about resources
> for unschoolers than actual "schoolwork". I know that I've been better able
> to understand some things through curriculum sometimes.>>

I hope my using the word "curriculum" when I wrote about doing up
our holiday "lesson Plan" after the fact was not construed as an
endorsement of such things as teaching tools. I do a workshop
at conferences on "how to see what your child is learning when
you haven't been teaching them anything", as many (especially
new) unschooling parents feel insecure about "not doing anything"
and find it useful to have tools to see what their kids are
really accomplishing while carrying on with their lives. This
sort of thing can help people to relax and butt out, so to
speak.

I just wanted to clarify this.
--
Sandy <skeane@...>
http://mypage.direct.ca/s/skeane/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Summer Haiku

Smell of glove leather,
grassy stains and diamond dust,
green cathedrals......life. -sk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

sandy keane

>
> See, it's not not using cirriculum that's the wonderful thing about
> unschooling, it's the not teaching part. It's the learning that the kids
> just do that's amazing. <snip>

> LisaBugg

This quote is going on my fridge. Heck, I might even put it on a
T-shirt. Thank you Lisa!

Sandy <skeane@...>
http://mypage.direct.ca/s/skeane/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Summer Haiku

Smell of glove leather,
grassy stains and diamond dust,
green cathedrals......life. -sk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Andi Kaufman

>What I'm wondering is why anyone uses the phrase "can be taught" at all,
>especially in an unschooling forum.
>
>It's this sort of language we need to be very aware of and careful about.

yes linda, you are right. I am still new to unschooling and need some
loving advice about things like this.

sandra put it very well when she said replace teaching with learning. I
will try to do that. Thank you.

I still have ideas in my head about what isaac should be learning. I dont
know when and if they will go away but i am fine with them. and i will
continue to use some workbooks to help him learn.

I am hoping I am still welcome on this list even though i am not a radical
unschooler.

Andi...domestic goddess and active volunteer
mom to Isaac
tl2b@...

Never Underestimate the Power of This Woman!

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/99 2:14:27 AM !!!First Boot!!!, hilinda@...
writes:

<<
I feel the same way about any of the "school subjects". History is not a
single thing. Math is not a thing. Those are very, very broad categories
into which many, many different things and kinds of things fall, and it's
those things that interest people, not the broad category. You can't teach
math or history or any broad subject any more than you could teach
"universe" or "infinity".
>>


But you can initiate, lead, show by example, etc. And I don't know
everything -- sometimes we have to "look it up."

Maybe that makes me something other than an "unschooler." Maybe there are
"radical unschoolers" and "moderate/mixed unschoolers." Do we all need
separate lists? Can't we get along and learn from one another?

I'm not trying to convince anyone to be less "un" but must I be so "un" in
order to benefit from the discussions here?

Nance

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/99 7:58:07 AM Central Daylight Time,
tl2b@... writes:

<<
I still have ideas in my head about what isaac should be learning. I dont
know when and if they will go away but i am fine with them. and i will
continue to use some workbooks to help him learn.
>>
Sometimes, it's almost impossible to get those ideas out of your head. It's
okay, the goal is not to put them in your child's head. My kids use
workbooks and puzzle books to learn with. Matter of fact my oldest is so dang
methodical she drive me nutty. Living with me has been hard on her. She's
used tons of workbooks, whether they were produced to be curriculum or just
fun stuff for kids.

I think what Sandra and Linda were really pointing out is not the use of any
one kind of material, but the little nagging issue of control. It's very
hard to give up control ...over anything that has meaning in our lives. And
society has pounded into our heads that our children are out of control and
if we don't maintain a tight grip things are just going to get worse. Teach
them is an issue of control in the way the larger society uses the word to
mean to force someone to learn something.. So, some of us react to that word
in ways that seem out of proportion. I know that Sandra and I have had many
discussions that centered around the word *teach*.

Diving deeply into just what we are doing is what I hope we do on this list.
There are many lists that discuss the how of unschooling. How kids learn math
by cooking and how grammar and vocabulary are logical outgrowths of reading
and speaking. The why we choose this path, the why isn't discussed as much.
I think we who are living daily with the different kind of how need to
observe, discuss, and analyze why what we are doing is working so well. In
the coming years there are going to be an awful lot of people coming to us
and asking us how they can recreate what we have discovered on a larger
scale. If we aren't conversent with the why, the whole culture loses out.

Unfortuately, asking those why questions can be tricky. It sounds accusatory
to say, "why did you do that?". This medium can also be a drawback, without
body language and tones of voice to guide us, it's very easy to read a snarky
attitude into what really was just a genuine question.

There are some deep thinkers on this list and I, for one, hope they feel safe
in posing and talking about these issues. While it may feel uncomfortable at
first, especially if you are new to unschooling, in the long run these
discussions will make us all stronger.

Lisa Bugg
ps.... You all be nice, I'm a terrible speller. :)

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/1999 6:58:42 AM, Marbleface@... wrote:

<<I'm not trying to convince anyone to be less "un" but must I be so "un" in
order to benefit from the discussions here?>>

Those who aren't committed to unschooling can benefit tons, if the
conversation is kept in unschooling range and focus. If the unschooling
focus is lost, the list will dissolve, unschoolers will wander away, and
those coming for help here won't find it.

If I go to a Baptist church I'm not going to stand up and start praising
Buddha. I'm not even going to say "Blessed Virgin Mary!" There are times
and places for things, and any list called unschooling-dotcom needs to be for
and about unschooling. That was my whole point. If everyone who goes to
church is saved the preachin' can be cut short and the lunch can last longer.
If everyone on this list was an avowed, experienced unschooler there would
be less need to keep it on topic. There are new homeschoolers here, though,
and new unschoolers, and so for them we need to preach more clearly. (Former
Baptist that I am, I'm starting to hear the strains of "Just As I Am" in the
back of my head...)

Okay, I'm skating near the thin ice of blasphemy, so I'll go sit on the bench
a while.

Sandra

[email protected]

I just read the reply from Teresa concerning the changes that may or may
not occur on this list. I must say that I'm not quite sure what the
problem exactly was to begin with, but I do agree with her. I do know of
many people who have started homeschooling and wanted to do so with a
curriculum. I believe it's from insecurities they have as to all of a
sudden being "teacher." I also know many of them that end up as
unschoolers. Mostly because of the support they receive from others and
the confidence that grows within them.
As to posts directed at one person. I know that if someone asks a
question, there are many others that become interested and therefore
want the answers as well. I don't think there really are unschooling
topics because it is a way of life and doesn't that include everything?
Our questions and answers regarding tadpoles and butterflies sparked new
interest in others. If that was answered privately, think of what would
have been missed.
Now to post to say "thank you" I think that would be best taken
privately unless it goes out to us all.
Maybe I missed the point of what exactly people were upset about.

Mary in FL

[email protected]

I'm having a flight of fancy here....

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Before each unschooler jumped off the proverbial unschooling cliffs and
started flapping her wings and flying, it would be nice if she could write a
mind-changing letter that says the following:

1. I am not going to teach my children anything.

2. They are going to learn whatever they damnwell please.

3. And it's going to be wonderful.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

OK. That was fun! I can imagine writing such a letter. But I certainly
WOULDN'T mail it to the superintendant of schools.

Betsy

Diana Asberry

>>"Teaching" is no more than talking about something, or demonstrating it,
>>or
answering questions about it.
>>"LEARNING," though is ...
...real connections are being made.

I also recommend what I've been doing: taking a moment, without
distractions, and saying the word; feeling what emotions come with the word.
"teaching" feels forced, something someone is trying to "hammer into my
brain"
"leaning" feels empowered, something I do to better my life....


>>I correct them gently, every time. I just rephrase: "You mean your
>> >>doctorrecommends that you stay in town?" ...I might say something
>> >stronger,like "Is it the doctor's baby?" or "Why did you give the
>> >doctor the powerto tell you what to do?"


OH YEA (had to throw in my 2cents) I cannot stay silent when "Dr. so & so
delivered the baby"... no, You did all the pushing, give yourself some
credit here; he/she just did the catching (well, of course, if forceps or
the vaccuum was used, the dr. did do the pulling...)



>Much of this is attitude and confidence and self-assurance. took a
>deep breath and jumped off that cliff?


May we all be bestoyed with the confidence & self-assurance...(wiggling
fingers, sending good vibes)
=:~0
ready, 1, 2, 3, GOOOoooooooooo
Diana


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

Andi Kaufman

>From: ECSamHill@...
>1. I am not going to teach my children anything.

I personally cant say that. I will help isaac learn which some people call
teaching whenever he wants or asks.

maybe i am misunderstanding soemthing here or maybe i am just not a
unschooler. i thought i was.


Andi...domestic goddess and active volunteer
mom to Isaac
tl2b@...

Never Underestimate the Power of This Woman!

Lois Hoover

>From: KaeKaeB2@...
>
>Diving deeply into just what we are doing is what I hope we do on this
list.
>There are many lists that discuss the how of unschooling. How kids learn
math
>by cooking and how grammar and vocabulary are logical outgrowths of reading
>and speaking. The why we choose this path, the why isn't discussed as
much.
>I think we who are living daily with the different kind of how need to
>observe, discuss, and analyze why what we are doing is working so well.

Okay, I'll start. Why. That answer would be different depending on which
child I was talking about. But what it would come down to in the end is
that I trust their abilities/desires enough to let them learn what they
choose to. I also respect them enough as individuals not to choose for
them what should be important for them.

When my children left school we had a lot of things to sort out. First was
what each of us felt was education. The one thing we all agreed on was that
the "subjects" were too narrowly defined by the system and produced
(hopefully if the students memorized it all and retained it) cookie cutter
graduates. Once we realized that, then we had to look at how much of what
was taught in school was needed. Of course math is needed daily, but we
knew that it could be learned in a better way. A way that would stay with
us and rote memorization wasn't it.

once we found unschooling we realized just how little we had known when we
figured out the above questions in the beginning. The boys were shocked to
learn how much more was out there that they hadn't had time to learn when
sitting in a classroom. I was at first surprised by how much I could learn
from them.

Finally, (to keep this from getting too long) I wanted my children to
regain the self esteem that they originally had when I sent them off to
school. I believe very strongly that without self esteem you won't find
happiness and if my children have nothing else in their lives I want them
to find a happiness within themselves. The only approach to learning that
we feel allows us the time to explore ourselves and our world is unschooling.

>In
>the coming years there are going to be an awful lot of people coming to us
>and asking us how they can recreate what we have discovered on a larger
>scale.

Wouldn't that be great! It would be nice to see more people accept
unschooling and reap the benefits in their families.

Lois
>
>

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

>But you can initiate, lead, show by example, etc. And I don't know
>everything -- sometimes we have to "look it up."
>
>Maybe that makes me something other than an "unschooler." Maybe there are
>"radical unschoolers" and "moderate/mixed unschoolers." Do we all need
>separate lists? Can't we get along and learn from one another?
>
>I'm not trying to convince anyone to be less "un" but must I be so "un" in
>order to benefit from the discussions here?
>
>Nance


I know I am not the only one who has a bad taste in her mouth from this
whole line of discussion. Who is going to stand with us and where are we
going to get support if we are bickering among ourselves as to who is more
radical, more "devout" or most "UN"?? I think what matters here is child
led learning as a way of life. Not stifling creativity, and letting my
children have the freedom to learn from whatever forms they choose is more
important to me than arguing over principles that, much like Theology, are
open to interpretation.

No one OWNS the concept of Unschooling, there is no Pope of Unschooling to
pass judgement on what is the correct way to do it. I agree that we should
all get along. I was quite enjoying the list as it was, and I think that
everyone is now on the defensive, thinking they were not "with the
program." I also agree that it is important for the list not to
deteriorate into a general chat forum, and not a place for Unschoolers to
learn and grow, but nobody can learn and grow with all the noise around
here about who is "right" and who knows best.

Just my .02

Nanci K. in Idaho

[email protected]

.>>>>" I also agree that it is important for the list not to
deteriorate into a general chat forum, and not a place for Unschoolers to
learn and grow, but nobody can learn and grow with all the noise around
here about who is "right" and who knows best.
Just my .02>>>>>>

There are just so many homeschooling lists. This one is destined to be
different.

I'm happy to be brought back to focus~because I didn't subscribe to an
Unschooling list to chat (though I'm fully capable of running in a million
directions at once and happily do so).

Besides, I don't think what was being asked was that anyone stop all
chatting, but the focus of Unschooling needs to be maintained.

Steph

Lois Hoover

>From: stephaniecurrier@...
>
>There are just so many homeschooling lists. This one is destined to be
>different.<snip>
>Besides, I don't think what was being asked was that anyone stop all
>chatting, but the focus of Unschooling needs to be maintained.
>
Hi Steph,
I have to put my .02 in here. I was happy to see that the discussion about
curriculum not happen here. I've seen too many unschooling lists where
curriculums are the main subjects after a while. I was hoping this list
would be different and avoid curriculums. We have not used curriculums
(except a few workbooks the first two months and they got shelved real
fast!) so I'm not really looking for discussion on them. This is only our
second year unschooling, so I'm not really an expert here. I would like to
learn more from those who have unschooled longer to see the potential that
we could reach. While I am happy where we are heading, it is always nice to
have a little help.

Lois

Brown

Nanci wrote:

> I think what matters here is child
> led learning as a way of life.

Who is the child leading? I think what is inevitable is child learning as a way
of life. If my child asks me for help, great, I'll try and provide it, one way
or the other, but hey, I've got my own life to lead. I don't want to be led by
anyone - just as my kids don't really like being led themselves.

> Not stifling creativity, and letting my
> children have the freedom to learn from whatever forms they choose is more
> important to me than arguing over principles that, much like Theology, are
> open to interpretation.

Principles are the basis of my life, but they aren't static - my principles
develop as I learn, listen and think. So discussion of principles is very
important to me. Furthermore, creativity without principles leads to
Frankenstein monsters, IMO. I am not always the unschooler I would like to be,
because of my own background and hang ups. Without the principles, my attempts
at unschooling would have been buried under a pile of half used curriculum long
ago.

> No one OWNS the concept of Unschooling, there is no Pope of Unschooling to
> pass judgement on what is the correct way to do it.

True. But there is a general consensus of what unshooling is. And if I want to
talk about cats, I'll join a list about cats. I won't join up to dog.com and
expect people to be happy with me talking about cats.

> I agree that we should
> all get along. I was quite enjoying the list as it was, and I think that
> everyone is now on the defensive, thinking they were not "with the
> program." I also agree that it is important for the list not to
> deteriorate into a general chat forum, and not a place for Unschoolers to
> learn and grow, but nobody can learn and grow with all the noise around
> here about who is "right" and who knows best.

I keep getting excited when I find an unschooling site or list, expecting to be
helped and encouraged along the unschooling path. I keep being disillusioned
when I find talk of curriculum, and how to motivate kids to do things they
aren't interested in etc. There are heaps of sites and lists for those who are
interested in such things. So why do people want to discuss such things here
rather than there?

Carol

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/99 9:41:19 PM Central Daylight Time, lhoover@...
writes:

<< (except a few workbooks the first two months and they got shelved real
fast!) >>
SO is there some place we can donate all these workbooks good intentioned
family members keep giving us? <bg>

Kelly

Carol E. Burris

KDBecko@... wrote:

> SO is there some place we can donate all these workbooks good intentioned
> family members keep giving us? <bg>

Kelly,

Does your local homeschooling support group have a library? That's what I did
with mine.

Carol, who is a complete unschooler of a 16 yo and 19 yo

Carol Burris
Friend of Ismael
The world shines bright with endless possibilities each time a child is born.

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/99 9:06:14 PM, mjcmbrwn@... writes:

<<I keep getting excited when I find an unschooling site or list, expecting
to be
helped and encouraged along the unschooling path. I keep being disillusioned
when I find talk of curriculum, and how to motivate kids to do things they
aren't interested in etc. There are heaps of sites and lists for those who are
interested in such things. So why do people want to discuss such things here
rather than there?>>

Great question.

I think there are people who want to borrow our cool ideas, without having to
embrace our reckless <gasp!> philosophy.

When I was on AOL, I didn't mind a non-unschooler entering the unschooling
folder, admitting to not being an unschooler, and asking for book
recommendations or resource info. I figured it was a compliment, that we
unschoolers as a group were deeply knowledgeable about novels and craft kits
and a zillion other neat things.

BUT, it's a different case when non-unschoolers enter a discussion and start
giving out advice to a group that has been brought together for the purpose
of sharing unschooling advice. That would be annoying. That's why sometimes
we unschoolers mount an ideological crusade.

(Disclaimer: I'm not saying that's what happened here on this list. I just
joined a couple of days ago. I don't know what the ideological issues are
right now on this list. I didn't notice any curriculum discussions. And I
think writing the dreaded letter to the superintendent IS an issue that IS
appropriate to this list.)

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/99 12:06:28 AM Central Daylight Time,
mjcmbrwn@... writes:

<< I keep getting excited when I find an unschooling site or list, expecting
to be
helped and encouraged along the unschooling path. I keep being disillusioned
when I find talk of curriculum, and how to motivate kids to do things they
aren't interested in etc. There are heaps of sites and lists for those who
are
interested in such things. So why do people want to discuss such things here
rather than there? >>


Carol,
I am also excited about finding a good unschooling list. In my
situation, being a new unschooler (and coming from a family of public school
teachers) I am looking for verification that it is "okay" if my child is
being unmotivated. I am not trying to turn the conversation into
"curriculum" or into "school-at-home" tactics. I am, however, feeling very
confused and discouraged with the people around me (my public school
teachers-mom and dad-, and the very "school-at-home" homeschoolers around my
area) telling me that something is wrong with my 17 year old son. They are
harping about him so much, and the fact that the only thing he is interested
in is science fiction or computer games, and they are constantly telling me
that I am hurting my child. I am coming to this group, my only group of
support for unschooling, and begging for encouragement. I am wanting all you
veteran unschoolers to tell me that it is okay if he is not motivated, and
that we should just continue to unschool like we are.
I am really sorry, if I made anyone feel like I wanted answers on a
curriculum, or if I made you feel like I was discussing traditional
schooling. I just needed a pat on my back, and encouragement that my kids
are indeed normal and bright even if they aren't studying the 'traditional
and normal' subjects.
Tami