RE: Allowance, Responsibility
Annette
> I think when parents talk about "giving responsibility" they generallystandards
> mean
> they expect the child to take care of something to the parent's
> while allowing the child to suffer the "natural" consequences of theirstandards
> choices. The parent may set lower standards for a child but the
> are still the parent's.Ok, ok...there may be standards, but there will be in the real world
too. At ANY job, you will be expected to do a certain job to earn your
pay.
> There are pitfalls of tying allowance to performance.job
>
> It sounds like good training for the business world. But unlike a real
> where someone has choices about what type of work to do and theatmosphere
> they like to work in, the work available at home is limited to whatthe
> parent is willing to pay for. That's fine and resembles the workingworld
> ifLike I said, he is only 6 and does not need a soul source of income.
> the child wants to earn extra money. But as a sole source of income it
> doesn't resemble real life at all.
Plus, this statement seems a bit untrue in the REAL world. Most people
are lucky enough to be able to chose what they do in life and what
duties they take on in a job, but some people are not that lucky at all
and they are forced to take any job they can and endure a harder life.
> I think the nice and sweet asking is good!Thanks, I really needed to feel accepted or like I am doing the right
thing for my child! LOL
> I think that last bit sounds like an excuse why something you're notI don't really think I need an excuse at all. Its what works for us at
> totally
> sure is right is still okay.
this moment and I feel that's most important to me.
> Some cleaning guide recommended that when you have a choice betweenhard
> getting/easy putting away and easy getting/hard putting away that ithelps
> to choose the first. We're usually more motivated to expend energy tofind
> something than we are to expend energy to put it away.Yes, without some guide as to how to do it or how it will be easiest,
how will they know? We HAVE lived this already and just want to help
them.
> Message: 3room,
> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 08:04:05 -0600
> From: "Lyle W." <unschoolingdad@...>
> Subject: Re: RE: Cleaning
> That's a good point. When a parent sends a child to go clean their
> however 'clean' the room ends up being should be up to the child.It's
> THEIR room, and THEIR stuff, and they should be able to organize it toOf course, clean is not what I would call clean...that's when I go in
> their own liking.
and do it after the fact!
> ~~I HAVE to have all the legos with theBecause that's me! Some people cant see dirt on the toilet or in the
> > legos - anal.~~
>
> Why?
kitchen, I like for all the legos to be in the same place. What good
would it do to have 1o pieces in one room and 2 in another and be trying
to build something and have to go bonkers looking for those 2 to
complete it?
> That depends on who does the organizing. It may help the organizer to'organization'.
> find things more easily, but someone else may have organized it a
> different way, and may not see any rhyme or reason to the
> If one person says,"That's where it goes", another might ask, "Why?",and
> the response to the why? should be a careful one. Just because I liketo
> keep the scissors in the junk drawer in the kitchen doesn't meanthat's
> where they should go. Someone else may use them in an entirelydifferent
> part of the house more often than I use them, so maybe their placementof
> the scissors makes more sense than mine. At least to them it does.You
> can force a person to put things away in a certain place, but youcannot
> force a person to be 'organized'. Some people are, some aren't, andit's
> usually the organized people that are doing the bitching. Sometimesthe
> organized people can even make the rest of us feel guilty about ourun-
> organization, and make us feel inept and deficleave
> ient if we are unable to 'pull ourselves up' to their level. If
> organized people want to go around organizing things, fine, but just
> the rest of us alone. :)Wow...I think someone has some resentment about organization LOL !!
> Everyone should be able to decide what is 'clean enough' forthemselves.
> If someone doesn't like the way I did something, then they can re-doit to
> their heart's content! If it wasn't good enough, then fix ityourself!
That's exactly what I do!!
> Kids have way too much going on to worry about soemthing as mundane asYou are right, kids don't give a hoot about cleaning. They just want to
> cleaning. A person is only a kid for a short time, let them enjoy it,
> because they will have the rest of their lives to feel the 'burden' of
> things like cleaning, just like we all do now.
play and bounce off the walls! BUT, I do feel that a certain level of
cleanliness is important in the real world. How else will they learn
unless we model a clean living environment. And I don't mean nagging and
making them do it, but showing them how pleasant it is to be in a clean
and tidy home.
> My two oldest and I read about the sustainable earth one day--someonesent
> a link. We grabbed our cuisinaire rods and used them to representvisually
> the comparisons that were being made. Then I pulled up excel, and wethe
> figured out the daily expenditure for our household and compared it to
> world average this website was giving through the cuisinaire rods.Very
> sobering.This concept sounds great for older children that understand the concept
of money and bills. My 6 yr old would not benefit from this yet.
Annette,Jason
& Our 3 Boujas
Nicolas, Joseph
& peanut due 1/12/04
kayb85
> I don't really think I need an excuse at all. Its what works for usat
> this moment and I feel that's most important to me.Have you read the book "Punished by Rewards" by Alfie Kohn? I think
that might give you a slightly different perspective on the idea of
allowance as a reward for chores.
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/28/2003 7:45:13 PM Mountain Standard Time,
boujamama@... writes:
-=-At ANY job, you will be expected to do a certain job to earn your
pay.-=-
I chose to have children. I really love them. They don't have to do a
certain job to earn my love, or their rooms, or their food, or their clothes, or
the spending money they automatically get (allowance) or the extra money we give
them sometimes. Two of mine just got back from ice skating with eight other
kids. We weren't sure how much money the kids all had to pool to do that.
Keith gave Marty $20, which is enough to cover three kids and a bit more.
They didn't apply to be our children, and we couldn't fire them and hire
replacement children, so the analogy of a job doesn't apply.
-=-Plus, this statement seems a bit untrue in the REAL world. -=-
Which world is that?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
boujamama@... writes:
-=-At ANY job, you will be expected to do a certain job to earn your
pay.-=-
I chose to have children. I really love them. They don't have to do a
certain job to earn my love, or their rooms, or their food, or their clothes, or
the spending money they automatically get (allowance) or the extra money we give
them sometimes. Two of mine just got back from ice skating with eight other
kids. We weren't sure how much money the kids all had to pool to do that.
Keith gave Marty $20, which is enough to cover three kids and a bit more.
They didn't apply to be our children, and we couldn't fire them and hire
replacement children, so the analogy of a job doesn't apply.
-=-Plus, this statement seems a bit untrue in the REAL world. -=-
Which world is that?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>I don't think unschoolers are preparing their kids for employment. We're
>
>Ok, ok...there may be standards, but there will be in the real world
>too. At ANY job, you will be expected to do a certain job to earn your
>pay.
more interested in helping our kids be who they are. Funny thing is, the
kids who really *are* who they are end up being quite employable.
>So you want to prepare your child to be one of the unlucky ones? <g>
>
>
>Like I said, he is only 6 and does not need a soul source of income.
>Plus, this statement seems a bit untrue in the REAL world. Most people
>are lucky enough to be able to chose what they do in life and what
>duties they take on in a job, but some people are not that lucky at all
>and they are forced to take any job they can and endure a harder life.
I'd rather assume my kid will be part of the "most people" who get to
choose what they do.
> > I think the nice and sweet asking is good!The thing is, this isn't a support group. It's a discussion group. If
>Thanks, I really needed to feel accepted or like I am doing the right
>thing for my child! LOL
you're looking for support for what you're already doing, you're more
likely to find it elsewhere. If you're interested in thinking about why you
do what you do and why you might or might not want to do that, this is the
place.
Tia
Mary
From: "Annette" <boujamama@...>
<<Like I said, he is only 6 and does not need a soul source of income.
Plus, this statement seems a bit untrue in the REAL world. Most people
are lucky enough to be able to chose what they do in life and what
duties they take on in a job, but some people are not that lucky at all
and they are forced to take any job they can and endure a harder life.>>
A source of income no, but money of their own given unconditionally for them
to do with as they see fit, yes. I would at least say that most who post
here do it that way. Money given with no attachments. It's not really
considered income because there is no job. But giving money like that helps
the child with a lot more than just the concept of saving and spending. And
I tend to disagree with the whole no choice stuck in a crappy job thing.
There is always a choice. Sometimes one does have a crappy job but there is
always the choice to look for better/different.
<<Yes, without some guide as to how to do it or how it will be easiest,
how will they know? We HAVE lived this already and just want to help
them. >>
But again what you see as easier won't always be seen the same way to
others. I know plenty of people, (live with one) who seem totally
disorganized but funtion quite nicely. Better than I ever would under those
same circumstances and vice versa.
<<Of course, clean is not what I would call clean...that's when I go in
and do it after the fact! >>
That's all well and good as long as one isn't asked to do something, or even
made to do something, and then have someone else go and redo it. If I feel
strongly enough about something like that, I would never ask anyone to do it
in the first place. Why would anyone ever *want* to try and do something
someone else would go and do over later? And what we are talking about with
neatness or cleanliness is wanting our children to *want* to do it for them,
not because mom wants them to or someone else made them all their lives.
<<Because that's me! Some people cant see dirt on the toilet or in the
kitchen, I like for all the legos to be in the same place. What good
would it do to have 1o pieces in one room and 2 in another and be trying
to build something and have to go bonkers looking for those 2 to
complete it? >>
I like the legos in the lego bin too. But I never make the kids put them
there. Most end up there but some end up in separate bins too. So I don't
*make* the kids move them so they are all together where I like them.
Sometimes if they are out of place long enough, I'll ask if I can put them
where all the rest are. <bg>
<<You are right, kids don't give a hoot about cleaning. They just want to
play and bounce off the walls! BUT, I do feel that a certain level of
cleanliness is important in the real world. How else will they learn
unless we model a clean living environment. And I don't mean nagging and
making them do it, but showing them how pleasant it is to be in a clean
and tidy home. >>
And modeling that and not imposing it is the best way for that to happen
naturally for the child. And modeling just means doing it ourselves and not
saying "okay lets clean up this room, legos go here and those things go over
there, etc."
<<This concept sounds great for older children that understand the concept
of money and bills. My 6 yr old would not benefit from this yet. >>
But many children do understand that concept at early ages. My kids get
consumerism and saving and spending and paying bills. Just from everyday
life with us they understand that we even pay for our water. It's natural
for them to see that.
I see chores as having the kids do things they wouldn't normally do right
now because they want the money they are getting paid to do it. So even when
they are being paid to clean their room, they aren't really cleaning because
they like it that way or even because mom does, they clean for money. And I
was wondering if your son doesn't spend any he *makes* maybe he's wondering
if the day will come when he won't want to do any chores at all, making no
money. At least he'll have what he has now. It's something worth thinking
about.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
<<Like I said, he is only 6 and does not need a soul source of income.
Plus, this statement seems a bit untrue in the REAL world. Most people
are lucky enough to be able to chose what they do in life and what
duties they take on in a job, but some people are not that lucky at all
and they are forced to take any job they can and endure a harder life.>>
A source of income no, but money of their own given unconditionally for them
to do with as they see fit, yes. I would at least say that most who post
here do it that way. Money given with no attachments. It's not really
considered income because there is no job. But giving money like that helps
the child with a lot more than just the concept of saving and spending. And
I tend to disagree with the whole no choice stuck in a crappy job thing.
There is always a choice. Sometimes one does have a crappy job but there is
always the choice to look for better/different.
<<Yes, without some guide as to how to do it or how it will be easiest,
how will they know? We HAVE lived this already and just want to help
them. >>
But again what you see as easier won't always be seen the same way to
others. I know plenty of people, (live with one) who seem totally
disorganized but funtion quite nicely. Better than I ever would under those
same circumstances and vice versa.
<<Of course, clean is not what I would call clean...that's when I go in
and do it after the fact! >>
That's all well and good as long as one isn't asked to do something, or even
made to do something, and then have someone else go and redo it. If I feel
strongly enough about something like that, I would never ask anyone to do it
in the first place. Why would anyone ever *want* to try and do something
someone else would go and do over later? And what we are talking about with
neatness or cleanliness is wanting our children to *want* to do it for them,
not because mom wants them to or someone else made them all their lives.
<<Because that's me! Some people cant see dirt on the toilet or in the
kitchen, I like for all the legos to be in the same place. What good
would it do to have 1o pieces in one room and 2 in another and be trying
to build something and have to go bonkers looking for those 2 to
complete it? >>
I like the legos in the lego bin too. But I never make the kids put them
there. Most end up there but some end up in separate bins too. So I don't
*make* the kids move them so they are all together where I like them.
Sometimes if they are out of place long enough, I'll ask if I can put them
where all the rest are. <bg>
<<You are right, kids don't give a hoot about cleaning. They just want to
play and bounce off the walls! BUT, I do feel that a certain level of
cleanliness is important in the real world. How else will they learn
unless we model a clean living environment. And I don't mean nagging and
making them do it, but showing them how pleasant it is to be in a clean
and tidy home. >>
And modeling that and not imposing it is the best way for that to happen
naturally for the child. And modeling just means doing it ourselves and not
saying "okay lets clean up this room, legos go here and those things go over
there, etc."
<<This concept sounds great for older children that understand the concept
of money and bills. My 6 yr old would not benefit from this yet. >>
But many children do understand that concept at early ages. My kids get
consumerism and saving and spending and paying bills. Just from everyday
life with us they understand that we even pay for our water. It's natural
for them to see that.
I see chores as having the kids do things they wouldn't normally do right
now because they want the money they are getting paid to do it. So even when
they are being paid to clean their room, they aren't really cleaning because
they like it that way or even because mom does, they clean for money. And I
was wondering if your son doesn't spend any he *makes* maybe he's wondering
if the day will come when he won't want to do any chores at all, making no
money. At least he'll have what he has now. It's something worth thinking
about.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
TreeGoddess
On Dec 28, 2003, at 8:14 PM, Annette wrote:
some great advice on cleaning after people have cleaned -- especially
in the case of cleaning something "better" after a child has done so
already. "Housework done incorrectly still blesses the house." She
says that you're doing your children a disservice when you're telling
them (with actions or words) that their best isn't good enough for you.
If you want it done a certain way just do it yourself in the first
place and without being a martyr or carrying on with a woe-is-me
attitude. Don't ask or tell your babies (or husband! ;') to clean
something and then grumble or sigh and do over when they do it "wrong".
Again, "housework done incorrectly still blesses your home". :)
HTH -Tracy-
>> [When a parent sends a child to go clean their room, however 'clean'Not everyone loves the FlyLady (www.FlyLady.net) but I think she has
>> the room ends up being should be up to the child. It's THEIR room,
>> and THEIR stuff, and they should be able to organize it to their own
>> liking.]
> Of course, clean is not what I would call clean...that's when I go in
> and do it after the fact!
some great advice on cleaning after people have cleaned -- especially
in the case of cleaning something "better" after a child has done so
already. "Housework done incorrectly still blesses the house." She
says that you're doing your children a disservice when you're telling
them (with actions or words) that their best isn't good enough for you.
If you want it done a certain way just do it yourself in the first
place and without being a martyr or carrying on with a woe-is-me
attitude. Don't ask or tell your babies (or husband! ;') to clean
something and then grumble or sigh and do over when they do it "wrong".
Again, "housework done incorrectly still blesses your home". :)
HTH -Tracy-
Elizabeth Roberts
Growing up, "allowance" was always tied to chores and grades in school and things such as that. Which meant I never had any allowance, because I never "measured up" to expected levels...mostly because I didn't really care to.
When I was old enough to work, I was further punished for it by having to turn my money over to my mother "to save" for me because otherwise I'd just spend it as I wanted to. All that taught me was to lie about my earnings, spend earnings quickly in order to have something I wanted, then hide/lie some more to cover up having bought something I wanted.
For all the book knowledge and lectures in the world over how to handle money, that was the real lesson I learned. I still struggle with it now, 10 years that I've been on my own/married.
In contrast, my husband's allowance was just his allowance. He could spend it as he chose. When he was old enough to work, the allowance stopped, but he had his earnings. No questions asked, no lectures about savings. He learned to take care of the important things (his car payment and insurance were his primary expenses) then his wants/needs (cigarettes mostly as his parents still met his needs for clothing/shelter/food). Not that he's a penny-pincher but he's responsible.
He is responsible with his money because he taught himself to be responsible, because he was ALLOWED to be.
Needless to say, our children have an allowance starting at age 5. Their age in dollars per payday, to spend/save as they wish. So far Sarah blows it, but then, she's just 7. Occasionally she'll ASK me to help her save towards something that she wants but if she decides to dip into that before she reaches her goal, that's her choice and I'll let her.
MamaBeth
Everything I need to know, I learned on my own!
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Get your photo on the big screen in Times Square
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When I was old enough to work, I was further punished for it by having to turn my money over to my mother "to save" for me because otherwise I'd just spend it as I wanted to. All that taught me was to lie about my earnings, spend earnings quickly in order to have something I wanted, then hide/lie some more to cover up having bought something I wanted.
For all the book knowledge and lectures in the world over how to handle money, that was the real lesson I learned. I still struggle with it now, 10 years that I've been on my own/married.
In contrast, my husband's allowance was just his allowance. He could spend it as he chose. When he was old enough to work, the allowance stopped, but he had his earnings. No questions asked, no lectures about savings. He learned to take care of the important things (his car payment and insurance were his primary expenses) then his wants/needs (cigarettes mostly as his parents still met his needs for clothing/shelter/food). Not that he's a penny-pincher but he's responsible.
He is responsible with his money because he taught himself to be responsible, because he was ALLOWED to be.
Needless to say, our children have an allowance starting at age 5. Their age in dollars per payday, to spend/save as they wish. So far Sarah blows it, but then, she's just 7. Occasionally she'll ASK me to help her save towards something that she wants but if she decides to dip into that before she reaches her goal, that's her choice and I'll let her.
MamaBeth
Everything I need to know, I learned on my own!
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Get your photo on the big screen in Times Square
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: "Elizabeth Roberts" <mamabethuscg@...>
<<Needless to say, our children have an allowance starting at age 5. Their
age in dollars per payday, to spend/save as they wish. So far Sarah blows
it, but then, she's just 7. Occasionally she'll ASK me to help her save
towards something that she wants but if she decides to dip into that before
she reaches her goal, that's her choice and I'll let her. >>
My kids have always had an allowance. For us that meant money given to them
weekly, every week, nothing tied to it, and it was there's to spend as they
wished. Tara is now working for a little over a year and hasn't gotten
allowance since a month after she started. We pay things and she is
responsible for certain things as well. She is very good with her money. I
thought I was good at her age, but she has me beat. The other 3 get money
every week also. Money is saved every week that goes into their bank account
but they don't get that, I just put it in a separate can. They know we save
for them. They always after a large amount of money acquired, put some of
that into their *bank* account. (like some Christmas money) Sierra would
always spend her money as soon as she got more than $5.00. She could never
keep more than that. Joseph would save well into the 20's before buying
something. I would only let Sierra know what she would have leftover when
she asked. Sometimes it was nothing at all and sometimes she borrowed
allowance from me!!! Now at almost 8, she's much more calm with her money.
Right now she has about $30.00. An amount I would have never thought she
would be able to keep. Point is, letting them go and being patient has them
find their own comfort level. Most times it's what we would have wished for
ourselves.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
<<Needless to say, our children have an allowance starting at age 5. Their
age in dollars per payday, to spend/save as they wish. So far Sarah blows
it, but then, she's just 7. Occasionally she'll ASK me to help her save
towards something that she wants but if she decides to dip into that before
she reaches her goal, that's her choice and I'll let her. >>
My kids have always had an allowance. For us that meant money given to them
weekly, every week, nothing tied to it, and it was there's to spend as they
wished. Tara is now working for a little over a year and hasn't gotten
allowance since a month after she started. We pay things and she is
responsible for certain things as well. She is very good with her money. I
thought I was good at her age, but she has me beat. The other 3 get money
every week also. Money is saved every week that goes into their bank account
but they don't get that, I just put it in a separate can. They know we save
for them. They always after a large amount of money acquired, put some of
that into their *bank* account. (like some Christmas money) Sierra would
always spend her money as soon as she got more than $5.00. She could never
keep more than that. Joseph would save well into the 20's before buying
something. I would only let Sierra know what she would have leftover when
she asked. Sometimes it was nothing at all and sometimes she borrowed
allowance from me!!! Now at almost 8, she's much more calm with her money.
Right now she has about $30.00. An amount I would have never thought she
would be able to keep. Point is, letting them go and being patient has them
find their own comfort level. Most times it's what we would have wished for
ourselves.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/28/03 8:32:14 PM, leschke@... writes:
<< I don't think unschoolers are preparing their kids for employment. We're
more interested in helping our kids be who they are. Funny thing is, the
kids who really *are* who they are end up being quite employable.
just from this angle.
School claims heavily to be preparing people for "the workplace." I remember
being in school and them telling me "School is your job. Dress as though you
were going to work in an office." And when we would complain to the
counsellor or principal about another student or teacher or about frustration in a
situation, their first line of response seemed to be that when we grew up and
went to work, we would have to learn to get along with bosses and co-workers, so
we should treat the situation as though it were that.
Maybe they were better preparing us to be draftees in the army, though, or
prison inmates, because few of us were at that school by choice. A few had
chosen it over private schools their parents had been willing and able to afford,
and so a few were there by choice (from a limited field of choices, like
choosing the army instead of being drafted, maybe, or cutting a deal to go to a
certain prison).
The lack of rights and the lack of the right of refusal in so many instances
made it quite UNlike "the real world."
Sandra
<< I don't think unschoolers are preparing their kids for employment. We're
more interested in helping our kids be who they are. Funny thing is, the
kids who really *are* who they are end up being quite employable.
>>I think this is really important and I don't remember it ever being discussed
just from this angle.
School claims heavily to be preparing people for "the workplace." I remember
being in school and them telling me "School is your job. Dress as though you
were going to work in an office." And when we would complain to the
counsellor or principal about another student or teacher or about frustration in a
situation, their first line of response seemed to be that when we grew up and
went to work, we would have to learn to get along with bosses and co-workers, so
we should treat the situation as though it were that.
Maybe they were better preparing us to be draftees in the army, though, or
prison inmates, because few of us were at that school by choice. A few had
chosen it over private schools their parents had been willing and able to afford,
and so a few were there by choice (from a limited field of choices, like
choosing the army instead of being drafted, maybe, or cutting a deal to go to a
certain prison).
The lack of rights and the lack of the right of refusal in so many instances
made it quite UNlike "the real world."
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 12/28/03 8:14 PM, Annette at boujamama@... wrote:
like, doing things they enjoy. Not all of it will be fun, but the less fun
things will be understandable in the larger context of what the company
needs (say like writing reports or going on business trips to unexotic
cities). It's less of a burden to do unfun things when you know it's a
necessary part of something you enjoy.
In the workplace we always have a choice. We know we don't have to be there.
We can quit and find a new job at anytime. When the positives of the job
don't outweigh the negatives of the job and the negatives of finding a new
job, it's a useful skill to be able to recognize that it's time to move on!
Does that resemble someone whose only choice of earning income is at the
whim and discretion of another?
Here's some similar thoughts people have had along that vein:
If you knew your kid would be starving next year, would you starve him now
to prepare?
If you knew your kid would break a leg in the future, would you break his
leg now so he'd be prepared?
casually trade what they do that works.
The purpose of this list is discussion. It's why it's called
UnschoolingDiscussion. :-)
Here's a piece of the list description:
type of responses you're getting are part of the purpose of the list:
I think a better goal than getting kids to do it the "right" way -- which in
essence is learning to conform to someone else's idea of what is right -- is
to help them learn how to figure out what their goals are and how to go
about reaching them.
Kids have goals different from us and what they will need to achieve their
goals will be different than what we think is the "right" way to do it.
One of the best courses I had in college was Analysis, Synthesis and
Evaluation. (Revision was implied but they added it to the title in later
editions of the course.) *Better* than learning to do what someone else
tells us is the right way is to figure out what we want (analyze), figure
out ways we can go about it (synthesize), evaluate what's working and what
isn't (evaluate) and, in light of what we've learned from the evaluation,
tweak the way we're working towards the goal or even revise the goal itself.
It helps to see the world through their understanding and their needs rather
than through adult understanding and adult needs. Our job isn't to change
their understanding and needs to match what adults have. That will come over
time naturally with growth. Our job is to help them figure out what they
want and then figure out how to get it. Their wants and needs and
understanding will change through out life so learning how to meet specific
needs (organization for instance) doesn't help them nearly as much as
learning how to go about meeting any need they have.
And at 5 the overpowering need is to play and have fun :-)
when he wants the piece. But it just isn't enough of an annoyance to make up
for the annoyance of putting them away in a specific way every time he
touches them.
If your goal is for him to appreciate how much easier it is when things are
where you expect them to be, you'll have to be the one reorganizing. *Do*
invite him along. *Do* make the process pleasant. So when he decides that
information is something that will help him meet his goals, it will be there
available for him.
Making him do it your "right" way is likely to make him think that one day
he'll be able to move out of the house and be able to keep things however he
wants them without having someone hovering over him telling him in words and
actions and attitude how wrong he is to not want things the way mom does.
Is that your goal?
things. (Lyle happens to be a relaxing neat freak ;-)
My way of "organizing" is to pile. It looks like chaos in my computer room
(and, to a lesser extent, around the house). But I know where things are. If
someone came and organized things to be where they think they're "supposed"
to be, I wouldn't be able to find things as easily.
time and think, "Well to heck with you! You didn't like what I took the time
to do last time. So you can just do it yourself in the first place."
What if your husband asked you to mow the lawn to help him out because he
was so busy this week. What if you did what you felt was a decent job and
you were glad to help him out so he didn't have to do it that week. What if
you then saw him out there redoing what you did? How would you feel?
Kids are people too. Just because adults get the idea that parents are
"right" and kids are "wrong" and our job is to make sure kids learn how to
do it "right" doesn't mean that kids don't have the exact same feelings an
adult would in the above scenario.
If we see the work as ours to do, and we see their help as a gift they're
giving us, then we get the work done *and* better relationships with our
kids! :-)
Joyce
> Ok, ok...there may be standards, but there will be in the real worldIdeally, and it's what I want for my daughter, a person will have a job they
> too. At ANY job, you will be expected to do a certain job to earn your
> pay.
like, doing things they enjoy. Not all of it will be fun, but the less fun
things will be understandable in the larger context of what the company
needs (say like writing reports or going on business trips to unexotic
cities). It's less of a burden to do unfun things when you know it's a
necessary part of something you enjoy.
In the workplace we always have a choice. We know we don't have to be there.
We can quit and find a new job at anytime. When the positives of the job
don't outweigh the negatives of the job and the negatives of finding a new
job, it's a useful skill to be able to recognize that it's time to move on!
Does that resemble someone whose only choice of earning income is at the
whim and discretion of another?
> Plus, this statement seems a bit untrue in the REAL world. Most peopleIs that what you want for you son?
> are lucky enough to be able to chose what they do in life and what
> duties they take on in a job, but some people are not that lucky at all
> and they are forced to take any job they can and endure a harder life.
Here's some similar thoughts people have had along that vein:
If you knew your kid would be starving next year, would you starve him now
to prepare?
If you knew your kid would break a leg in the future, would you break his
leg now so he'd be prepared?
> I don't really think I need an excuse at all. Its what works for us atYes. But. Some people assume all lists are for support and a place to
> this moment and I feel that's most important to me.
casually trade what they do that works.
The purpose of this list is discussion. It's why it's called
UnschoolingDiscussion. :-)
Here's a piece of the list description:
>> The purpose of this list is to move out of our own comfort zones as weand here's two of the list posting policies that will help you see why the
>> critically examine our beliefs, ideas, and viewpoints about learning, and
>> seek a deeper understanding of unschooling and more respectful relationships
>> with our children.
type of responses you're getting are part of the purpose of the list:
>> 2 Expect your beliefs to be challenged. Welcome this as an opportunity toThat's what people say about math and reading and the rest of academics.
>> critically examine your own ideas.
>> 4. If you have a belief or practice that you don't want held up to public
>> examination, don't post it to the list.
> Yes, without some guide as to how to do it or how it will be easiest,
> how will they know? We HAVE lived this already and just want to help
> them.
I think a better goal than getting kids to do it the "right" way -- which in
essence is learning to conform to someone else's idea of what is right -- is
to help them learn how to figure out what their goals are and how to go
about reaching them.
Kids have goals different from us and what they will need to achieve their
goals will be different than what we think is the "right" way to do it.
One of the best courses I had in college was Analysis, Synthesis and
Evaluation. (Revision was implied but they added it to the title in later
editions of the course.) *Better* than learning to do what someone else
tells us is the right way is to figure out what we want (analyze), figure
out ways we can go about it (synthesize), evaluate what's working and what
isn't (evaluate) and, in light of what we've learned from the evaluation,
tweak the way we're working towards the goal or even revise the goal itself.
It helps to see the world through their understanding and their needs rather
than through adult understanding and adult needs. Our job isn't to change
their understanding and needs to match what adults have. That will come over
time naturally with growth. Our job is to help them figure out what they
want and then figure out how to get it. Their wants and needs and
understanding will change through out life so learning how to meet specific
needs (organization for instance) doesn't help them nearly as much as
learning how to go about meeting any need they have.
And at 5 the overpowering need is to play and have fun :-)
> What goodIt would drive *you* bonkers. It might even drive him bonkers at the moment
> would it do to have 1o pieces in one room and 2 in another and be trying
> to build something and have to go bonkers looking for those 2 to
> complete it?
when he wants the piece. But it just isn't enough of an annoyance to make up
for the annoyance of putting them away in a specific way every time he
touches them.
If your goal is for him to appreciate how much easier it is when things are
where you expect them to be, you'll have to be the one reorganizing. *Do*
invite him along. *Do* make the process pleasant. So when he decides that
information is something that will help him meet his goals, it will be there
available for him.
Making him do it your "right" way is likely to make him think that one day
he'll be able to move out of the house and be able to keep things however he
wants them without having someone hovering over him telling him in words and
actions and attitude how wrong he is to not want things the way mom does.
Is that your goal?
> Wow...I think someone has some resentment about organization LOL !!I think someone doesn't like other people deciding how they should organize
things. (Lyle happens to be a relaxing neat freak ;-)
My way of "organizing" is to pile. It looks like chaos in my computer room
(and, to a lesser extent, around the house). But I know where things are. If
someone came and organized things to be where they think they're "supposed"
to be, I wouldn't be able to find things as easily.
>> If someone doesn't like the way I did something, then they can re-do it toThe consequence, of course, is that they're less likely to want to help next
>> their heart's content! If it wasn't good enough, then fix it yourself!
> That's exactly what I do!!
time and think, "Well to heck with you! You didn't like what I took the time
to do last time. So you can just do it yourself in the first place."
What if your husband asked you to mow the lawn to help him out because he
was so busy this week. What if you did what you felt was a decent job and
you were glad to help him out so he didn't have to do it that week. What if
you then saw him out there redoing what you did? How would you feel?
Kids are people too. Just because adults get the idea that parents are
"right" and kids are "wrong" and our job is to make sure kids learn how to
do it "right" doesn't mean that kids don't have the exact same feelings an
adult would in the above scenario.
> BUT, I do feel that a certain level ofAbsolutely!
> cleanliness is important in the real world. How else will they learn
> unless we model a clean living environment. And I don't mean nagging and
> making them do it, but showing them how pleasant it is to be in a clean
> and tidy home.
If we see the work as ours to do, and we see their help as a gift they're
giving us, then we get the work done *and* better relationships with our
kids! :-)
Joyce
Dawn Adams
Annette writes:
Anyhow, this whole "real world" idea seems strange to me. Your son is living in the real world of a six year old. The 'reality' of employment is fantasy for him and has no real bearing on his real world. And why does he need to prepare about something 10 or 15 years in the future? Teach him that work is a joy instead and I guarentee employers will want him.
Annette writes:
Annette writes:
Annette writes:
Interesting discussion.
Dawn (in NS)
of money and bills. My 6 yr old would not benefit from this yet.
Annette,Jason
& Our 3 Boujas
Nicolas, Joseph
& peanut due 1/12/04
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Ok, ok...there may be standards, but there will be in the real worldI've never had a job where pay was denied or docked if the employer felt I wasn't doing my job. I would have been reprimanded or fired, not an option for a family.
>too. At ANY job, you will be expected to do a certain job to earn your
>pay.
Anyhow, this whole "real world" idea seems strange to me. Your son is living in the real world of a six year old. The 'reality' of employment is fantasy for him and has no real bearing on his real world. And why does he need to prepare about something 10 or 15 years in the future? Teach him that work is a joy instead and I guarentee employers will want him.
Annette writes:
>Like I said, he is only 6 and does not need a soul source of income.My husbands philosophy on work, echoed above. Until the lessons about work his parents drilled into him faded, he realized he had choices and decided to work towards a major career change. He's not in the navy yet but nothing has been able to stop him from pursuing this goal. People may not have immediate choices about where they work but they can always choose a goal to change that. No choice is much rarer than most people care to admit and really not something I'd care to train my children to accept anyway.
>Plus, this statement seems a bit untrue in the REAL world. Most people
>are lucky enough to be able to chose what they do in life and what
>duties they take on in a job, but some people are not that lucky at all
>and they are forced to take any job they can and endure a harder life.
Annette writes:
>Because that's me! Some people cant see dirt on the toilet or in theThat was my position awhile ago. But then I realized I was making it all about me. If the Lego get disorganized and it bugs me, I'll clean it or let it go. If let go my daughter learns it soons gets lost anyway. Making her clean it up a certain way however only lets her know that her toys and possessions and play revolve around my whims.
>kitchen, I like for all the legos to be in the same place. What good
>would it do to have 1o pieces in one room and 2 in another and be trying
>to build something and have to go bonkers looking for those 2 to
>complete it?
Annette writes:
>You are right, kids don't give a hoot about cleaning. They just want toModeling is great. I still wonder about your idea of a real world however. It seems to hovering out in your childrens future for you. It IS now for them. The best preparation for future challenges is to drop the idea that you have to get them ready for the future and let them live firmly in the present.
>play and bounce off the walls! BUT, I do feel that a certain level of
>cleanliness is important in the real world. How else will they learn
>unless we model a clean living environment. And I don't mean nagging and
>making them do it, but showing them how pleasant it is to be in a clean
>and tidy home.
Interesting discussion.
Dawn (in NS)
> My two oldest and I read about the sustainable earth one day--someonesent
> a link. We grabbed our cuisinaire rods and used them to representvisually
> the comparisons that were being made. Then I pulled up excel, and wethe
> figured out the daily expenditure for our household and compared it to
> world average this website was giving through the cuisinaire rods.Very
> sobering.This concept sounds great for older children that understand the concept
of money and bills. My 6 yr old would not benefit from this yet.
Annette,Jason
& Our 3 Boujas
Nicolas, Joseph
& peanut due 1/12/04
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dawn Adams
Sandra writes:
anyway...
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>The lack of rights and the lack of the right of refusal in so many instancesBig leap here but I've been wondering lately if the lack of rights and choices within school has been preparing citizens in your country and mine to accept recent invasions of our liberties and rights as meekly as we have.
>made it quite UNlike "the real world."
anyway...
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyle W.
~~Sometimes
the
Nope, not at all. I AM one of those organized people, and my point was that just because *I* want things 'organized' doesn't make it IMPORTANT. I think it's almost always the organized people that hold the resentment towards the less-than-organized. If one person wants all the Legos in one bin, but another person says, "Who cares?", the person with the who cares? attitude usually won't be the one upset about the Legos.
Lyle
***Always remember, Lead By Example***
--
___________________________________________________________
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the
> organized people can even make the rest of us feel guilty about ourun-
> organization, and make us feel inept and deficleave
> ient if we are unable to 'pull ourselves up' to their level. If
> organized people want to go around organizing things, fine, but just
> the rest of us alone. :)~~~~Wow...I think someone has some resentment about organization LOL !!~~
Nope, not at all. I AM one of those organized people, and my point was that just because *I* want things 'organized' doesn't make it IMPORTANT. I think it's almost always the organized people that hold the resentment towards the less-than-organized. If one person wants all the Legos in one bin, but another person says, "Who cares?", the person with the who cares? attitude usually won't be the one upset about the Legos.
Lyle
***Always remember, Lead By Example***
--
___________________________________________________________
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Wife2Vegman
-----Sandra wrote:
she was sharing a tip from a book, not telling you
that your child needs guidance.
The statement with which you responded to Sandra's
sounds a lot like you think you have to teach your
child to organize their stuff, whether or not they
want to, or have asked to, learn.
Is that what you meant?
Some kids like having their room trashed and messy.
They dont' mind stepping over things to get to the
desk or having to unbury the bed at the end of the day
or having to dig through the toy chest to find Buzz
Lightyear at the bottom.
Other kids like being neat and like organizing and
cleaning, and never have to be "taught" how.
And then there are mine, somewhere in the middle, who
let their rooms get to overwhelming and then ask me to
help them clean them up. Now the 14yo cleans her own
room without help. I never had to "teach" her how.
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
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>--- Annette <boujamama@...> wrote:
> > Some cleaning guide recommended that when you have
> a choice between
> hard
> > getting/easy putting away and easy getting/hard
> putting away that it
> helps
> > to choose the first.
>I don't think that is what Sandra was saying. I think
> Yes, without some guide as to how to do it or how it
> will be easiest,
> how will they know? We HAVE lived this already and
> just want to help
> them.
she was sharing a tip from a book, not telling you
that your child needs guidance.
The statement with which you responded to Sandra's
sounds a lot like you think you have to teach your
child to organize their stuff, whether or not they
want to, or have asked to, learn.
Is that what you meant?
Some kids like having their room trashed and messy.
They dont' mind stepping over things to get to the
desk or having to unbury the bed at the end of the day
or having to dig through the toy chest to find Buzz
Lightyear at the bottom.
Other kids like being neat and like organizing and
cleaning, and never have to be "taught" how.
And then there are mine, somewhere in the middle, who
let their rooms get to overwhelming and then ask me to
help them clean them up. Now the 14yo cleans her own
room without help. I never had to "teach" her how.
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
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[email protected]
In a message dated 12/28/2003 9:27:50 PM Central Standard Time,
mummy124@... writes:
Me, too. But for the life of me I cannot throw even the tiniest of Lego
pieces away! I pick up tiny little joystick things and lightsaber blades whenever
I'm vacuuming. Little round dots that we have thousands of--can't throw them
away. Thus, we probably have 99.99999% of all the Legos that have ever
entered the house. They're all in the same huge bin.
I don't know currently where the bin is, however. :)
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mummy124@... writes:
> I like the legos in the lego bin too. But I never make the kids put them~~~~
> there.
Me, too. But for the life of me I cannot throw even the tiniest of Lego
pieces away! I pick up tiny little joystick things and lightsaber blades whenever
I'm vacuuming. Little round dots that we have thousands of--can't throw them
away. Thus, we probably have 99.99999% of all the Legos that have ever
entered the house. They're all in the same huge bin.
I don't know currently where the bin is, however. :)
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<<< SandraDodd@... writes:
I think this is really important and I don't remember it ever being discussed
just from this angle.
School claims heavily to be preparing people for "the workplace." >>>>
******************************************************************************
***********
I think I read in one of the John Holt books Teach Your Own maybe that
schools teach as they do so children turn out to be blue collar workers or just
workers. Something like that........
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think this is really important and I don't remember it ever being discussed
just from this angle.
School claims heavily to be preparing people for "the workplace." >>>>
******************************************************************************
***********
I think I read in one of the John Holt books Teach Your Own maybe that
schools teach as they do so children turn out to be blue collar workers or just
workers. Something like that........
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wife2Vegman
--- Mary <mummy124@...> wrote:
month. We pay them for certain jobs around the house
such as babysitting their 5yo brother, mowing the
lawn, cleaning out the garage. We also pay for the
materials and supplies they need for their hobbies and
interests. They earn money from neighbors and friends
by babysitting, yardwork, pet sitting.
They do things with their money like buy stuff for
their hobbies/interests too, buy birthday presents for
friends, pay for movie tickets and snacks there
(although if they don't have money for that, we cover
them, so they never have to *not* see the movie due to
lack of funds).
Really, since we don't use curricula, their money is
their source of much math learning. To put conditions
on earning it would create a situation where they have
to work to earn their education. I don't make them
work to earn their books or board games or anything
else we use to learn with. Why money?
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
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> A source of income no, but money of their own givenWe give our kids an allowance at the beginning of each
> unconditionally for them
> to do with as they see fit, yes. I would at least
> say that most who post
> here do it that way. Money given with no
> attachments. It's not really
> considered income because there is no job. But
> giving money like that helps
> the child with a lot more than just the concept of
> saving and spending.
month. We pay them for certain jobs around the house
such as babysitting their 5yo brother, mowing the
lawn, cleaning out the garage. We also pay for the
materials and supplies they need for their hobbies and
interests. They earn money from neighbors and friends
by babysitting, yardwork, pet sitting.
They do things with their money like buy stuff for
their hobbies/interests too, buy birthday presents for
friends, pay for movie tickets and snacks there
(although if they don't have money for that, we cover
them, so they never have to *not* see the movie due to
lack of funds).
Really, since we don't use curricula, their money is
their source of much math learning. To put conditions
on earning it would create a situation where they have
to work to earn their education. I don't make them
work to earn their books or board games or anything
else we use to learn with. Why money?
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
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Wife2Vegman
>My mom used to do this. She would give me a job to
> <<Of course, clean is not what I would call
> clean...that's when I go in
> and do it after the fact! >>
>
> That's all well and good as long as one isn't asked
> to do something, or even
> made to do something, and then have someone else go
> and redo it.
do, walk away, come back later to tell me it wasn't
good enough, get exasperated and do it herself.
I learned very early in life to do a half-ass job so I
could get out of there quicker and do what I really
wanted to do.
As long as I could endure the nagging and scolding, I
never had to do a good job cleaning anything.
I would rather work alongside my children, talking and
laughing, letting them do as much as they want while I
pick up the rest of the job, and never make them feel
inferior and inadequate. They also get to see how I
do things without a "lesson" involved. Sometimes you
can see the wheels turning in their heads "Oh, THAT'S
how you change the bag in the vacuum" and they know
how to do next time without ever having a lesson or
being told or screwing up.
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
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Wife2Vegman
--- tuckervill2@... wrote:
those little pieces, and how they all fit together to
make something huge and grand.
Of course, I feel that way about my sons' G.I. Joes
and Hot Wheels cars too.
Now that I think about it, I treasure all the toys my
kids have that my own brother never let me play with!
LOL!
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
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>Me too! There is something so wonderful about all
> Me, too. But for the life of me I cannot throw even
> the tiniest of Lego
> pieces away! I pick up tiny little joystick things
> and lightsaber blades whenever
> I'm vacuuming.
those little pieces, and how they all fit together to
make something huge and grand.
Of course, I feel that way about my sons' G.I. Joes
and Hot Wheels cars too.
Now that I think about it, I treasure all the toys my
kids have that my own brother never let me play with!
LOL!
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
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Wife2Vegman
--- HMSL2@... wrote:
who never question or create anything, but all work
for "the man". It is so sad, and so obvious, in our
area. If I were to turn on the morning or evening
news, the traffic reports show all these little bugs
following the ones in front of them to get to their
little cubicles in the city, then returning at the end
of the day.
We went to a wonderful, huge Crafts festival last
year. There were metalworkers, and musicians, and
textile workers, and sculpters and artists and people
who made stuffed animals, and people who made fancy
candies.
I want to go every year, and take my children, so they
can absorb the fact that not everyone has to work in a
building with circulated air and wear a suit and tie
and never change their wardrobe because the weather in
the building is a constant 68 degrees year round.
There were hundreds of people at that craft fair doing
what they loved, and making a decent living at it, and
they were all smiling and happy and taking time to
talk to the children about what they loved.
More empowerment. Sandra, I think you got me going on
a power kick. ;-)
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
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> <<< SandraDodd@... writes:******************************************************************************
> I think this is really important and I don't
> remember it ever being discussed
> just from this angle.
> School claims heavily to be preparing people for
> "the workplace." >>>>
>
> ***********Yes! The procrustean system makes little worker bees
>
> I think I read in one of the John Holt books Teach
> Your Own maybe that
> schools teach as they do so children turn out to be
> blue collar workers or just
> workers. Something like that........
> Laura
>
who never question or create anything, but all work
for "the man". It is so sad, and so obvious, in our
area. If I were to turn on the morning or evening
news, the traffic reports show all these little bugs
following the ones in front of them to get to their
little cubicles in the city, then returning at the end
of the day.
We went to a wonderful, huge Crafts festival last
year. There were metalworkers, and musicians, and
textile workers, and sculpters and artists and people
who made stuffed animals, and people who made fancy
candies.
I want to go every year, and take my children, so they
can absorb the fact that not everyone has to work in a
building with circulated air and wear a suit and tie
and never change their wardrobe because the weather in
the building is a constant 68 degrees year round.
There were hundreds of people at that craft fair doing
what they loved, and making a decent living at it, and
they were all smiling and happy and taking time to
talk to the children about what they loved.
More empowerment. Sandra, I think you got me going on
a power kick. ;-)
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
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Danielle E. Conger
At 03:34 AM 12/29/2003 -0500, SandraDodd@... wrote:
Maybe they were better preparing us to be draftees in the army, though, or
prison inmates, because few of us were at that school by choice. . . The
lack of rights and the lack of the right of refusal in so many instances
made it quite UNlike "the real world."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have never understood the argument made by sooo many people to justify
sooo many things: "Life is hard, so it might as well be as hard as possible
from this moment forth so it won't feel so bad later." Not just school, but
what I was posting about the other day--staying in a class/ on a team
because they signed up for it. Later in life, staying in a job/ marriage/
place.
That's what grandparents, etc. told me when I didn't put my child in
kindergarten. They're going to have to learn how to sit still, be bored,
pay attention, follow directions, etc. so they must do all this from the
age of 5 forward, for many, many hours a day. HUH? It's just astonishing to
me that so many people buy this!
For me, this conversation resonates with the whole choice discussion. This
attitude is preparation for the "have to" mentality, training people out of
free choice, hiding from them that they even have choices any more. This
mentality, drilled into our heads from the age of 5 if not earlier, is a
preparation for service and a guarantee that we will not see our way out of
that service. We are trained to work and consume so that we have to work
some more to consume some more. It's what makes our economy go 'round. And,
in my opinion, what makes homeschoolers so dangerous to the status quo that
we have news broadcasts, local and state governments calling for more
"controls."
Just my $.02
--danielle
Maybe they were better preparing us to be draftees in the army, though, or
prison inmates, because few of us were at that school by choice. . . The
lack of rights and the lack of the right of refusal in so many instances
made it quite UNlike "the real world."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have never understood the argument made by sooo many people to justify
sooo many things: "Life is hard, so it might as well be as hard as possible
from this moment forth so it won't feel so bad later." Not just school, but
what I was posting about the other day--staying in a class/ on a team
because they signed up for it. Later in life, staying in a job/ marriage/
place.
That's what grandparents, etc. told me when I didn't put my child in
kindergarten. They're going to have to learn how to sit still, be bored,
pay attention, follow directions, etc. so they must do all this from the
age of 5 forward, for many, many hours a day. HUH? It's just astonishing to
me that so many people buy this!
For me, this conversation resonates with the whole choice discussion. This
attitude is preparation for the "have to" mentality, training people out of
free choice, hiding from them that they even have choices any more. This
mentality, drilled into our heads from the age of 5 if not earlier, is a
preparation for service and a guarantee that we will not see our way out of
that service. We are trained to work and consume so that we have to work
some more to consume some more. It's what makes our economy go 'round. And,
in my opinion, what makes homeschoolers so dangerous to the status quo that
we have news broadcasts, local and state governments calling for more
"controls."
Just my $.02
--danielle
[email protected]
"If you knew that your children were going to be in a
famine in a few years, would you start starving them now so that they
could get used to it?" Author Unknown ~ May have been Sandra that said this
several months ago?
I have used that statement many times in our lives to family and friends.
Christmas Day to my FIL who insists we need rules for the kids.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
famine in a few years, would you start starving them now so that they
could get used to it?" Author Unknown ~ May have been Sandra that said this
several months ago?
I have used that statement many times in our lives to family and friends.
Christmas Day to my FIL who insists we need rules for the kids.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Roberts
This aspect of the American educational system is well covered in John Gatto's "Underground History of American Education." It's available to be read online at http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/index.htm
MamaBeth
HMSL2@... wrote:
<<< SandraDodd@... writes:
I think this is really important and I don't remember it ever being discussed
just from this angle.
School claims heavily to be preparing people for "the workplace." >>>>
******************************************************************************
***********
I think I read in one of the John Holt books Teach Your Own maybe that
schools teach as they do so children turn out to be blue collar workers or just
workers. Something like that........
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
MamaBeth
HMSL2@... wrote:
<<< SandraDodd@... writes:
I think this is really important and I don't remember it ever being discussed
just from this angle.
School claims heavily to be preparing people for "the workplace." >>>>
******************************************************************************
***********
I think I read in one of the John Holt books Teach Your Own maybe that
schools teach as they do so children turn out to be blue collar workers or just
workers. Something like that........
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Everything I need to know, I learned on my own!
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Photos - Get your photo on the big screen in Times Square
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: <tuckervill2@...>
<< I don't know currently where the bin is, however. :)>>
LOL!!! Kids must have hid it from you!!
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
<< I don't know currently where the bin is, however. :)>>
LOL!!! Kids must have hid it from you!!
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
Mary
From: <SandraDodd@...>
<< I think this is really important and I don't remember it ever being
discussed
just from this angle.>>
I never really thought much about this before but you are right. Seems like
all my life, school was about preparing for the future. Real tough call on
some carefree kid who can't see past tomorrow. I certainly don't want that
for my children and I guess without realizing it, it is one of the reasons
why they don't school.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
<< I think this is really important and I don't remember it ever being
discussed
just from this angle.>>
I never really thought much about this before but you are right. Seems like
all my life, school was about preparing for the future. Real tough call on
some carefree kid who can't see past tomorrow. I certainly don't want that
for my children and I guess without realizing it, it is one of the reasons
why they don't school.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/29/03 7:46:16 AM, mamabethuscg@... writes:
<< This aspect of the American educational system is well covered in John
Gatto's "Underground History of American Education." >>
I mean I would like it discussed that unschooling isn't preparing people for
jobs.
Gatto's book bugs me because it so completely disregards the majority of the
history of American schools in favor of studying New York's navel. He's
talking about schools in industrial New England, and that's not altogether the
history of "American Education."
Sandra
<< This aspect of the American educational system is well covered in John
Gatto's "Underground History of American Education." >>
I mean I would like it discussed that unschooling isn't preparing people for
jobs.
Gatto's book bugs me because it so completely disregards the majority of the
history of American schools in favor of studying New York's navel. He's
talking about schools in industrial New England, and that's not altogether the
history of "American Education."
Sandra
Tia Leschke
>And those two pieces might be serving a very important function in some
> > What good
> > would it do to have 1o pieces in one room and 2 in another and be trying
> > to build something and have to go bonkers looking for those 2 to
> > complete it?
>
>It would drive *you* bonkers. It might even drive him bonkers at the moment
>when he wants the piece. But it just isn't enough of an annoyance to make up
>for the annoyance of putting them away in a specific way every time he
>touches them.
other game, in another room.
>My way of "organizing" is to pile. It looks like chaos in my computer roomMy son sometimes cleans up that way. Drives me nuts. I guess it's my
>(and, to a lesser extent, around the house). But I know where things are. If
>someone came and organized things to be where they think they're "supposed"
>to be, I wouldn't be able to find things as easily.
payback from when I used to insist on organizing his room *my* way and then
give up when he let it get messy again. <g>
Tia
Mary
From: "Tia Leschke" <leschke@...>
<<And those two pieces might be serving a very important function in some
other game, in another room.>>
And I think that is very important for some people to understand. How
interactive and important all the *stuff* can be elsewhere, not just where
it is supposed to be.
I use to be like that with the kids stuff. Keeping everything where it
belonged and together. Sorting things from what was on the floor and what
was already put away. Then I saw just how important to my kids all those
misplaced pieces were. GI Joe can fight off the dinosaurs from eating the
farm animals and Polly Pockets. And when Joseph makes up a game, he uses
things I would never have thought of. Blocks, beads, links, marbles, cards
and even little plastic pieces he finds on the floor of K Mart and brings
home!! It would stifle his imagination and play if I had a rule of putting
this away before you play with that and keep all those pieces where they
belong.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
<<And those two pieces might be serving a very important function in some
other game, in another room.>>
And I think that is very important for some people to understand. How
interactive and important all the *stuff* can be elsewhere, not just where
it is supposed to be.
I use to be like that with the kids stuff. Keeping everything where it
belonged and together. Sorting things from what was on the floor and what
was already put away. Then I saw just how important to my kids all those
misplaced pieces were. GI Joe can fight off the dinosaurs from eating the
farm animals and Polly Pockets. And when Joseph makes up a game, he uses
things I would never have thought of. Blocks, beads, links, marbles, cards
and even little plastic pieces he finds on the floor of K Mart and brings
home!! It would stifle his imagination and play if I had a rule of putting
this away before you play with that and keep all those pieces where they
belong.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
Penn Acres
We have been all over the map on the allowance -access to household money thing.
I still don't know a good way to do it.
As a kid I remember "hearing about" allowances. This was new to me-I asked my Dad-waiting till he was in a fairly good mood. He laughed like I was really silly. This was (now that I can look back) right after the war-(rationing) which happened right after the Depression era. Which as I grew older and could think about my parents in a more objective way-totally scarred and molded them. I asked if I could have 50 cents a month. I think he gave it to me 2 or 3 times out of the few times I dared ask.
When our own first kids were younger-I linked allowances to extra chores-I gave them small amounts of money occasionally. At that time my husband earned about 300$ per month. I was terribly hard on them in all ways but I thought I was really a much better parent than my father. I can see that they, and our relationships remain adversely touched by some of this. My younger son came along when we moved to BC. As he grew older there was more time with him, a little more money for fun things. A way better relatioship-There was never any money around "in purses, Piggy banks etc. When we adopted our youngest grandaughter at birth, 12 years later, we had more money (relatively) we travelled-showing our dairy goat herd, I had my own home business, we gave her things when she wanted, we occasionally used chore sheets etc. we gave her an allowance. She was the focus of most of our time. We took her everywhere with us. We had a great, affectionate relationship with her. We gave her extra money often, I knew she occasionally took money from the house and the shop, I "talked" about it to her. 'we thought we were doing such a wonderful job-she was very intelligent, inovative, motivated, but as she got into her teenage years-her stealing from us escalated, her demands for things went on forever-we tried in all ways to develop her recognition of a moral approach. She began to develop an interest only in her friends that were ( and are) quite frankly -lying thieves. She appeared to have no concept of the "wrongness" of taking from people who worked for their money.
She does however remain loving, concerned, and appreciative of us and her childhood.(mostly :0) )
Having spent much time over the past 9 years wondering-"what did we do wrong"-did we overindulge her-what is that all about.I have to admit being totally spooked about a lot of child raising things.
With the girls, we started giving them 2$ a week each last year,at age 7. They can save it or spend it how they wish. Usually they pay no attention to it. they have little recognition of money. I usually say-thats more than a "Fancy Barbie" as much as "three fancy Barbies:" They do peruse the Barbie aisles quite a bit ;-0)
I am not making any case for limiting money, gifts, allowances at all. Just telling you that. In Hindsight, I remain confused about cause and effect. However I am quite aware that people do what they do;regardless. I know I did.
I do know that for us -using chores-behaviour related allowances-privelages- and punishment was an awful thing for me to have done in the way I did it with my older children.
This if too long now-but Unschooling has been a major factor in other areas that plagued their mother and aunts and uncles.
grace
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I still don't know a good way to do it.
As a kid I remember "hearing about" allowances. This was new to me-I asked my Dad-waiting till he was in a fairly good mood. He laughed like I was really silly. This was (now that I can look back) right after the war-(rationing) which happened right after the Depression era. Which as I grew older and could think about my parents in a more objective way-totally scarred and molded them. I asked if I could have 50 cents a month. I think he gave it to me 2 or 3 times out of the few times I dared ask.
When our own first kids were younger-I linked allowances to extra chores-I gave them small amounts of money occasionally. At that time my husband earned about 300$ per month. I was terribly hard on them in all ways but I thought I was really a much better parent than my father. I can see that they, and our relationships remain adversely touched by some of this. My younger son came along when we moved to BC. As he grew older there was more time with him, a little more money for fun things. A way better relatioship-There was never any money around "in purses, Piggy banks etc. When we adopted our youngest grandaughter at birth, 12 years later, we had more money (relatively) we travelled-showing our dairy goat herd, I had my own home business, we gave her things when she wanted, we occasionally used chore sheets etc. we gave her an allowance. She was the focus of most of our time. We took her everywhere with us. We had a great, affectionate relationship with her. We gave her extra money often, I knew she occasionally took money from the house and the shop, I "talked" about it to her. 'we thought we were doing such a wonderful job-she was very intelligent, inovative, motivated, but as she got into her teenage years-her stealing from us escalated, her demands for things went on forever-we tried in all ways to develop her recognition of a moral approach. She began to develop an interest only in her friends that were ( and are) quite frankly -lying thieves. She appeared to have no concept of the "wrongness" of taking from people who worked for their money.
She does however remain loving, concerned, and appreciative of us and her childhood.(mostly :0) )
Having spent much time over the past 9 years wondering-"what did we do wrong"-did we overindulge her-what is that all about.I have to admit being totally spooked about a lot of child raising things.
With the girls, we started giving them 2$ a week each last year,at age 7. They can save it or spend it how they wish. Usually they pay no attention to it. they have little recognition of money. I usually say-thats more than a "Fancy Barbie" as much as "three fancy Barbies:" They do peruse the Barbie aisles quite a bit ;-0)
I am not making any case for limiting money, gifts, allowances at all. Just telling you that. In Hindsight, I remain confused about cause and effect. However I am quite aware that people do what they do;regardless. I know I did.
I do know that for us -using chores-behaviour related allowances-privelages- and punishment was an awful thing for me to have done in the way I did it with my older children.
This if too long now-but Unschooling has been a major factor in other areas that plagued their mother and aunts and uncles.
grace
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyle W.
I think that trying to prepare a child for a future job is a pretty limited view of unschooling. Job preparation is the last thing on my mind. How would I know what type of job my kid's are going to have? What if they don't even get a job? What if they have their own business?
A lot of people have MANY different jobs throughout their lives, and I've found that it's usually the employer, not the job, that has their own set of 'rules and repsonsibilities' that they expect of their employees. There is no universal preparation for the job market. Jobs come and go, some become obsolete overnight, some fade away over time.
If I'm doing any "preparing" for my kids, then I'm preparing them for life, not a job. (I don't even like the term "preparing", it sounds too...mold-ish.) Life in the "real world" doesn't have to be prepared for, it only needs to be LIVED.
Lyle
A lot of people have MANY different jobs throughout their lives, and I've found that it's usually the employer, not the job, that has their own set of 'rules and repsonsibilities' that they expect of their employees. There is no universal preparation for the job market. Jobs come and go, some become obsolete overnight, some fade away over time.
If I'm doing any "preparing" for my kids, then I'm preparing them for life, not a job. (I don't even like the term "preparing", it sounds too...mold-ish.) Life in the "real world" doesn't have to be prepared for, it only needs to be LIVED.
Lyle
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:26:16 EST
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] RE: Allowance, Responsibility
>
> In a message dated 12/29/03 7:46:16 AM, mamabethuscg@... writes:
>
> << This aspect of the American educational system is well covered in John
> Gatto's "Underground History of American Education." >>
>
> I mean I would like it discussed that unschooling isn't preparing people for
> jobs.
>
> Gatto's book bugs me because it so completely disregards the majority of the
> history of American schools in favor of studying New York's navel. He's
> talking about schools in industrial New England, and that's not altogether the
> history of "American Education."
>
> Sandra
***Always remember, Lead By Example***
--
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