[email protected]

SandraDodd@... writes:


> His life is NOT the stereotypical teenaged boy's life. It's richer, and
> it's
> real, and it's better.
>


Yes but. . . or should I say yes AND . . .

Wonderful as unschooling is, there's real stuff to watch out for,
however much we love and trust our maturing teens. Because of unschooling, my
almost 14-year-old dd is better equipped for joyful abundance than most teens,
but she is not bullet-proof.

My dd and I agree that her life is authentic, and much richer and
better than the stereotypical teenager's.

Her life also is different from other unschooled teens described in
this thread. She reads ALL the time, except when she's singing, dancing or
cooking, and doesn't care for video games, piercing or tattooing, OR organized
religion, or workbooks or academics, or the company or music of most people her
age.

And here's something silly (shaking my head) -- she says yes'm and
nossir, all the time! We never asked or expected she would do this. My dh the
inveterate Yankee is completely baffled by her manners.

She might have picked this up somehow from our Southern town or from
wanting to be a character in Gone With the Wind -- the point is that it didn't
come from us.

Her little brother shows no such tendency toward manners <g> and of
course there are many large and small differences between them, which also
didn't come from us.

Unschooled teens live in reality with everybody else. Dd must deal with a
world full of communicable diseases, pathologies, prejudices and bad acts by
others, not to mention the biological reality of her own genetics and body
chemistry, such as hormones.

Add that to the sobering scientific finding that no matter how mature
and responsible unschooling helps my dd become, her prefrontal cortex won't be
completely developed until at least the end of her teens (even later for
boys.)

So I conclude that the self-control, judgment, and decision-making
critical to her safety and lasting happiness WILL be affected by an unpredictable
stew of such variables, rather than determined solely by our unschooling
lifestyle. Much as I wish otherwise!

I'm remembering now that I had more than one friend who grew up to
embrace homosexuality (not unschoolers because I'd never heard of unschoolers
back then - lol - just lesbians! Does that makes unschooling the more extreme of
the two?)

I know of nothing in the way they were parented or schooled that
either caused -- or would have prevented -- it.

So how might we make a balanced, helpful "principle" for unschooling
parents out of this discussion of various teen behaviors, choices and risks?

This seems unlike the corporal punishment discussion, in which a
convincing case was made that unschooling and hitting as discipline don't mix.
That's something in the control of adults, to have no hitting.

But this is harder. Now we're talking about choices in control of
unschooling teens, not parents.

And (shudder) things beyond the control of anybody. JJ








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

J. Stauffer

<<<<< I know of nothing in the way they were parented or schooled that
> either caused -- or would have prevented -- it.>>>>>
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Well......um.......unschooling and parenting won't make you short or tall
either. And I don't get the "shudder" thing at all.

Julie S.--hoping with all her heart that she misunderstood what the poster
meant
>

----- Original Message -----
From: <jrossedd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Unschooling Better, Even Best -- But
Not BulletProof


> SandraDodd@... writes:
>
>
> > His life is NOT the stereotypical teenaged boy's life. It's richer, and
> > it's
> > real, and it's better.
> >
>
>
> Yes but. . . or should I say yes AND . . .
>
> Wonderful as unschooling is, there's real stuff to watch out for,
> however much we love and trust our maturing teens. Because of
unschooling, my
> almost 14-year-old dd is better equipped for joyful abundance than most
teens,
> but she is not bullet-proof.
>
> My dd and I agree that her life is authentic, and much richer and
> better than the stereotypical teenager's.
>
> Her life also is different from other unschooled teens described in
> this thread. She reads ALL the time, except when she's singing, dancing or
> cooking, and doesn't care for video games, piercing or tattooing, OR
organized
> religion, or workbooks or academics, or the company or music of most
people her
> age.
>
> And here's something silly (shaking my head) -- she says yes'm and
> nossir, all the time! We never asked or expected she would do this. My dh
the
> inveterate Yankee is completely baffled by her manners.
>
> She might have picked this up somehow from our Southern town or
from
> wanting to be a character in Gone With the Wind -- the point is that it
didn't
> come from us.
>
> Her little brother shows no such tendency toward manners <g> and of
> course there are many large and small differences between them, which also
> didn't come from us.
>
> Unschooled teens live in reality with everybody else. Dd must deal
with a
> world full of communicable diseases, pathologies, prejudices and bad acts
by
> others, not to mention the biological reality of her own genetics and body
> chemistry, such as hormones.
>
> Add that to the sobering scientific finding that no matter how
mature
> and responsible unschooling helps my dd become, her prefrontal cortex
won't be
> completely developed until at least the end of her teens (even later for
> boys.)
>
> So I conclude that the self-control, judgment, and decision-making
> critical to her safety and lasting happiness WILL be affected by an
unpredictable
> stew of such variables, rather than determined solely by our unschooling
> lifestyle. Much as I wish otherwise!
>
> I'm remembering now that I had more than one friend who grew up to
> embrace homosexuality (not unschoolers because I'd never heard of
unschoolers
> back then - lol - just lesbians! Does that makes unschooling the more
extreme of
> the two?)
>
> > So how might we make a balanced, helpful "principle" for
unschooling
> parents out of this discussion of various teen behaviors, choices and
risks?
>
> This seems unlike the corporal punishment discussion, in which a
> convincing case was made that unschooling and hitting as discipline don't
mix.
> That's something in the control of adults, to have no hitting.
>
> But this is harder. Now we're talking about choices in control of
> unschooling teens, not parents.
>
> And (shudder) things beyond the control of anybody. JJ
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

jrossedd

Right, it won't. We don't control much of anything. It's all a
journey and a pretty unpredictable one at that. My dad
afffectionately called his life with his self-directed offspring
a "white-knuckle trip."
Sorry, but I don't have a clue what you hope you misunderstood. I did
try hard to be clear. JJ

> Well......um.......unschooling and parenting won't make you short
or tall
> either. And I don't get the "shudder" thing at all.
>
> Julie S.--hoping with all her heart that she misunderstood what the
poster
> meant
> >
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <jrossedd@a...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 6:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Unschooling Better, Even Best -
- But
> Not BulletProof
>
>
> > SandraDodd@a... writes:
> >
> >
> > > His life is NOT the stereotypical teenaged boy's life. It's
richer, and
> > > it's
> > > real, and it's better.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Yes but. . . or should I say yes AND . . .
> >
> > Wonderful as unschooling is, there's real stuff to watch
out for,
> > however much we love and trust our maturing teens. Because of
> unschooling, my
> > almost 14-year-old dd is better equipped for joyful abundance
than most
> teens,
> > but she is not bullet-proof.
> >
> > My dd and I agree that her life is authentic, and much
richer and
> > better than the stereotypical teenager's.
> >
> > Her life also is different from other unschooled teens
described in
> > this thread. She reads ALL the time, except when she's singing,
dancing or
> > cooking, and doesn't care for video games, piercing or tattooing,
OR
> organized
> > religion, or workbooks or academics, or the company or music of
most
> people her
> > age.
> >
> > And here's something silly (shaking my head) -- she says
yes'm and
> > nossir, all the time! We never asked or expected she would do
this. My dh
> the
> > inveterate Yankee is completely baffled by her manners.
> >
> > She might have picked this up somehow from our Southern
town or
> from
> > wanting to be a character in Gone With the Wind -- the point is
that it
> didn't
> > come from us.
> >
> > Her little brother shows no such tendency toward manners
<g> and of
> > course there are many large and small differences between them,
which also
> > didn't come from us.
> >
> > Unschooled teens live in reality with everybody else. Dd must
deal
> with a
> > world full of communicable diseases, pathologies, prejudices and
bad acts
> by
> > others, not to mention the biological reality of her own genetics
and body
> > chemistry, such as hormones.
> >
> > Add that to the sobering scientific finding that no matter
how
> mature
> > and responsible unschooling helps my dd become, her prefrontal
cortex
> won't be
> > completely developed until at least the end of her teens (even
later for
> > boys.)
> >
> > So I conclude that the self-control, judgment, and
decision-making
> > critical to her safety and lasting happiness WILL be affected by
an
> unpredictable
> > stew of such variables, rather than determined solely by our
unschooling
> > lifestyle. Much as I wish otherwise!
> >
> > I'm remembering now that I had more than one friend who
grew up to
> > embrace homosexuality (not unschoolers because I'd never heard of
> unschoolers
> > back then - lol - just lesbians! Does that makes unschooling the
more
> extreme of
> > the two?)
> >
> > > So how might we make a balanced, helpful "principle"
for
> unschooling
> > parents out of this discussion of various teen behaviors, choices
and
> risks?
> >
> > This seems unlike the corporal punishment discussion, in
which a
> > convincing case was made that unschooling and hitting as
discipline don't
> mix.
> > That's something in the control of adults, to have no hitting.
> >
> > But this is harder. Now we're talking about choices in
control of
> > unschooling teens, not parents.
> >
> > And (shudder) things beyond the control of anybody. JJ
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
group.
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >

Robyn Coburn

<<Sorry, but I don't have a clue what you hope you misunderstood. I did
try hard to be clear. JJ
> Well......um.......unschooling and parenting won't make you short
or tall either. And I don't get the "shudder" thing at all.
>
> Julie S.--hoping with all her heart that she misunderstood what the
poster meant>>



I'm going to jump in here with a couple of guesses:



Julie S may be hoping JJ wasn't shuddering over the idea that some people
are homosexual.



JJ seemed to be shuddering over the fact that there are scary things out in
the world that are outside of our control, such as life threatening diseases
and horrible individuals.



Am I right?



Robyn L. Coburn





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>Right, it won't. We don't control much of anything. It's all a
>journey and a pretty unpredictable one at that. My dad
>afffectionately called his life with his self-directed offspring
>a "white-knuckle trip."
>Sorry, but I don't have a clue what you hope you misunderstood. I did
>try hard to be clear. JJ

I'm thinking it was this:

" I'm remembering now that I had more than one friend who grew up to
embrace homosexuality (not unschoolers because I'd never heard of unschoolers
back then - lol - just lesbians! Does that makes unschooling the more
extreme of
the two?)

I know of nothing in the way they were parented or schooled that
either caused -- or would have prevented -- it."

One doesn't *embrace* homosexuality, unless you mean coming to terms with
the sexuality one has been born with. There is nothing a parent can do to
cause or prevent homosexuality.
Tia

J. Stauffer

<<Sorry I don't have a clue about what you hope you misunderstood>>


I was hoping that the "shudder" wasn't in reference to people being
homosexual.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "jrossedd" <jrossedd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 9:15 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Unschooling Better, Even Best -- But
Not BulletProof


> Right, it won't. We don't control much of anything. It's all a
> journey and a pretty unpredictable one at that. My dad
> afffectionately called his life with his self-directed offspring
> a "white-knuckle trip."
> Sorry, but I don't have a clue what you hope you misunderstood. I did
> try hard to be clear. JJ
>
> > Well......um.......unschooling and parenting won't make you short
> or tall
> > either. And I don't get the "shudder" thing at all.
> >
> > Julie S.--hoping with all her heart that she misunderstood what the
> poster
> > meant
> > >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <jrossedd@a...>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 6:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Unschooling Better, Even Best -
> - But
> > Not BulletProof
> >
> >
> > > SandraDodd@a... writes:
> > >
> > >
> > > > His life is NOT the stereotypical teenaged boy's life. It's
> richer, and
> > > > it's
> > > > real, and it's better.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes but. . . or should I say yes AND . . .
> > >
> > > Wonderful as unschooling is, there's real stuff to watch
> out for,
> > > however much we love and trust our maturing teens. Because of
> > unschooling, my
> > > almost 14-year-old dd is better equipped for joyful abundance
> than most
> > teens,
> > > but she is not bullet-proof.
> > >
> > > My dd and I agree that her life is authentic, and much
> richer and
> > > better than the stereotypical teenager's.
> > >
> > > Her life also is different from other unschooled teens
> described in
> > > this thread. She reads ALL the time, except when she's singing,
> dancing or
> > > cooking, and doesn't care for video games, piercing or tattooing,
> OR
> > organized
> > > religion, or workbooks or academics, or the company or music of
> most
> > people her
> > > age.
> > >
> > > And here's something silly (shaking my head) -- she says
> yes'm and
> > > nossir, all the time! We never asked or expected she would do
> this. My dh
> > the
> > > inveterate Yankee is completely baffled by her manners.
> > >
> > > She might have picked this up somehow from our Southern
> town or
> > from
> > > wanting to be a character in Gone With the Wind -- the point is
> that it
> > didn't
> > > come from us.
> > >
> > > Her little brother shows no such tendency toward manners
> <g> and of
> > > course there are many large and small differences between them,
> which also
> > > didn't come from us.
> > >
> > > Unschooled teens live in reality with everybody else. Dd must
> deal
> > with a
> > > world full of communicable diseases, pathologies, prejudices and
> bad acts
> > by
> > > others, not to mention the biological reality of her own genetics
> and body
> > > chemistry, such as hormones.
> > >
> > > Add that to the sobering scientific finding that no matter
> how
> > mature
> > > and responsible unschooling helps my dd become, her prefrontal
> cortex
> > won't be
> > > completely developed until at least the end of her teens (even
> later for
> > > boys.)
> > >
> > > So I conclude that the self-control, judgment, and
> decision-making
> > > critical to her safety and lasting happiness WILL be affected by
> an
> > unpredictable
> > > stew of such variables, rather than determined solely by our
> unschooling
> > > lifestyle. Much as I wish otherwise!
> > >
> > > I'm remembering now that I had more than one friend who
> grew up to
> > > embrace homosexuality (not unschoolers because I'd never heard of
> > unschoolers
> > > back then - lol - just lesbians! Does that makes unschooling the
> more
> > extreme of
> > > the two?)
> > >
> > > > So how might we make a balanced, helpful "principle"
> for
> > unschooling
> > > parents out of this discussion of various teen behaviors, choices
> and
> > risks?
> > >
> > > This seems unlike the corporal punishment discussion, in
> which a
> > > convincing case was made that unschooling and hitting as
> discipline don't
> > mix.
> > > That's something in the control of adults, to have no hitting.
> > >
> > > But this is harder. Now we're talking about choices in
> control of
> > > unschooling teens, not parents.
> > >
> > > And (shudder) things beyond the control of anybody. JJ
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
> group.
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> > > [email protected]
> > >
> > > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> > http://www.unschooling.com
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/10/03 8:35:56 PM, jnjstau@... writes:

<< Unschooled teens live in reality with everybody else. Dd must deal

with a

> world full of communicable diseases, pathologies, prejudices and bad acts

by

> others, not to mention the biological reality of her own genetics and body

> chemistry, such as hormones.

> >>

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/10/03 8:35:56 PM, jnjstau@... writes:

<< Unschooled teens live in reality with everybody else. Dd must deal

with a

> world full of communicable diseases, pathologies, prejudices and bad acts

by

> others, not to mention the biological reality of her own genetics and body

> chemistry, such as hormones.

> >>

Sorry if I sent a blank one before. My keyboard went all fluttery.

They don't have to do that at school. Those life-problems seen from the
viewpoint and through the lens of school are magnified in unnatural ways. They're
not analyzing those things with a group of people their own age who are
together because they couldn't afford private school and they happen to live in the
same neighborhood.

<< Add that to the sobering scientific finding that no matter how

mature

> and responsible unschooling helps my dd become, her prefrontal cortex

won't be

> completely developed until at least the end of her teens (even later for

> boys.)>>

Is that an excuse for controlling a child? Maybe I missed the point.

<<I'm remembering now that I had more than one friend who grew up to

> embrace homosexuality>>

Do you know anyone who embraced being frizzy haired, or embraced being tall?
Because it's better for people to "embrace" their own genetic realities than
to reject them.

<< So how might we make a balanced, helpful "principle" for

unschooling parents out of this discussion of various teen behaviors, choices
and

risks?...
Now we're talking about choices in control of unschooling teens, not
parents.>>

This discussion won't make me change my principles. My children are growing
up treated like people. Young people, but the people they are and not "people
they will become." They're not "teens" in any hard-and-fast way. Marty
Dodd is fourteen years old right now. He's been raised with as much freedom as
he could have and still be safely where he wants to be since he was born. He
have not pushed him away, and we haven't prevented his venturing out. The same
way when he was learning to walk we let him walk away a bit if he wanted to
and he came back every time, we let him go out away from the house a bit if he
wants to and he comes back every time.

The principle hasn't changed a bit. The range and mobility have, but his
desire to live in the peace and warmth and security to which he has become
accustomed have not changed.

<<She . . .and doesn't care for . . . the company. . .of most

people her age.>>

My kids' social lives involve people younger and older. Kirby's range is
13-30 these days. Kirby is 17. Marty's 13-21 (his oldest regular friend is off
at college in another town, but when he's home they play games for hours;
Marty's 14), and Holly (12) has friends from six to 20.

But because I'm around kids their age (and other ages) many of whom are
homeschooled too and others of whom are in school, I DO have a current perspective
on the differences and in the advantages of homeschooling. Some of those
others who were traditionally schooled wouldn't be in such mixed-age social
situations if they hadn't started hanging around with my kids. They like it. Some
of them have a hard time at first not dismissing the younger people, but they
either change or wander off, usually.

I've never heard anyone claim unschooling is "bulletproof" so once again a
detractor is bringing up a previously unheard argument. That's called "a straw
man," and I really don't like it as a rhetorical device on this list.

If unschooling isn't better or best, let's disband the group and go and do
what we think IS best. If I didn't think unschooling wasn't a better situation
than my freely-available alternatives, I wouldn't be doing it myself and sure
as hell wouldn't be spending this much energy helping others do it.

Sandra