Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Question for Oldtimers -I can do guns, it's the gore
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For the moderators and oldtimers here, from someone new:
It's my impression that almost all the posts on this thread have been
positive toward owning and using guns, hunting, playing gory video games, et
cetera, with no ill effects. The personal stories shared seem pretty positive
toward integrating guns with family life, society and entertainment.
Please refer me to threads in the archives or to other links if you'd
rather not explain onlist, but I am genuinely curious to know more about why
it appears (at least to me, for the moment) that there's a pro-gun orientation
among experienced unschoolers. I never expected this topic to come up in
relation to unschooling, and if I had expected it, I'd likely have predicted the
opposite leaning -- JJ
It's my impression that almost all the posts on this thread have been
positive toward owning and using guns, hunting, playing gory video games, et
cetera, with no ill effects. The personal stories shared seem pretty positive
toward integrating guns with family life, society and entertainment.
Please refer me to threads in the archives or to other links if you'd
rather not explain onlist, but I am genuinely curious to know more about why
it appears (at least to me, for the moment) that there's a pro-gun orientation
among experienced unschoolers. I never expected this topic to come up in
relation to unschooling, and if I had expected it, I'd likely have predicted the
opposite leaning -- JJ
Deborah Lewis
***but I am genuinely curious to know more about why
it appears (at least to me, for the moment) that there's a pro-gun
orientation
among experienced unschoolers.***
I wouldn't call myself pro gun any more than I would call myself pro
pointy stick.<g> I don't own a gun and I've never fired one. My
husband, in a previous life, liked to shoot targets, but he hasn't in a
few years. He was never a hunter.
I think guns are tools. They happen to be effective killing tools, but
humans are all about killing, and I'm not surprised we develop better and
better tools to help us do that. I don't think it's the tool makes us
killers. I think killers make their tools.
We evolved as hunters, defenders of self and territory. I think those
are part of our selves and to think we can ignore it or suppress it is
naive. I'm all for evolution, and I'm idealistic enough to believe
humans will eventually be better able to control their violent natures.
From my vegan point of view it seems no more violent to me to own a gun,
shoot targets or critters, play shooting games, than it does to buy
cleanly packaged meat from a slaughter house or wear leather shoes or
play with a leather baseball glove or smear emu cream on our owies.
Maybe it's a matter of perspective. Is my neighbor who hunts more
violent than my neighbor who lets someone else do her killing for her?
And am I less violent when I drive my car forty miles to the vegie store
all the while smashing a berzillion bugs on my windshield? Dylan's
going to invent pheromone mile markers that keep bugs from flying and
crawling over roads.<g>
I have a really nice kid. He doesn't eat meat because he loves animals
and thinks they shouldn't have to die for his sake. He loves bugs and
all kinds of creeping things and happily carries flies and spiders out of
our house. He's kind and has never hurt anyone. He likes to hit a
target. He likes Quake and Medal of Honor. It won't hurt him because
his real life is full of respect and caring and decency.
I know parents who won't let their kids play violent video games but who
stomp spiders and trap mice and chop heads of chickens by the back door.
If we're going to get uptight about violence lets first start talking
about what is violent. If we're so worried our kids won't have respect
for life, let's think about being respectful of life.
I think we can gives games like that a lot of power they don't really
have. They are not more powerful than loving parents, real compassion
and kindness, or a life of goodness and joy.
No one is harmed in a game. None of it is real. That steak on the
dinner plate is real though and means someone really died. No one will
ever convince me the connection between kids and violence is video games
or TV.
So, no, I'm not pro gun. I'm pro kid. I think my kid has more control
over his mind and life than a gun or game has.<g>
Deb L
it appears (at least to me, for the moment) that there's a pro-gun
orientation
among experienced unschoolers.***
I wouldn't call myself pro gun any more than I would call myself pro
pointy stick.<g> I don't own a gun and I've never fired one. My
husband, in a previous life, liked to shoot targets, but he hasn't in a
few years. He was never a hunter.
I think guns are tools. They happen to be effective killing tools, but
humans are all about killing, and I'm not surprised we develop better and
better tools to help us do that. I don't think it's the tool makes us
killers. I think killers make their tools.
We evolved as hunters, defenders of self and territory. I think those
are part of our selves and to think we can ignore it or suppress it is
naive. I'm all for evolution, and I'm idealistic enough to believe
humans will eventually be better able to control their violent natures.
From my vegan point of view it seems no more violent to me to own a gun,
shoot targets or critters, play shooting games, than it does to buy
cleanly packaged meat from a slaughter house or wear leather shoes or
play with a leather baseball glove or smear emu cream on our owies.
Maybe it's a matter of perspective. Is my neighbor who hunts more
violent than my neighbor who lets someone else do her killing for her?
And am I less violent when I drive my car forty miles to the vegie store
all the while smashing a berzillion bugs on my windshield? Dylan's
going to invent pheromone mile markers that keep bugs from flying and
crawling over roads.<g>
I have a really nice kid. He doesn't eat meat because he loves animals
and thinks they shouldn't have to die for his sake. He loves bugs and
all kinds of creeping things and happily carries flies and spiders out of
our house. He's kind and has never hurt anyone. He likes to hit a
target. He likes Quake and Medal of Honor. It won't hurt him because
his real life is full of respect and caring and decency.
I know parents who won't let their kids play violent video games but who
stomp spiders and trap mice and chop heads of chickens by the back door.
If we're going to get uptight about violence lets first start talking
about what is violent. If we're so worried our kids won't have respect
for life, let's think about being respectful of life.
I think we can gives games like that a lot of power they don't really
have. They are not more powerful than loving parents, real compassion
and kindness, or a life of goodness and joy.
No one is harmed in a game. None of it is real. That steak on the
dinner plate is real though and means someone really died. No one will
ever convince me the connection between kids and violence is video games
or TV.
So, no, I'm not pro gun. I'm pro kid. I think my kid has more control
over his mind and life than a gun or game has.<g>
Deb L
Mary
Just wanted to comment on this one. I wouldn't say we are pro gun here at
home. We don't own any guns, never have and no one here has ever fired one.
When Joseph (almost 9 now) was little, I was not wanting him to play with
guns. Just didn't think it was a good idea. Not really sure why but I think
in part it was because I didn't want a violent little child who ran around
and pretended to shoot people. (like I had seen other children do at the
park) So my idea to just never have anyone buy him toy guns was put in
effect. I also must add that he never asked for any toy guns either.
Well eventually he would build guns out of Legos and plastic whatevers he
would find. When I would ask him about the "guns" he would explain that they
were tranquilizer guns and he was hunting dinosaurs. (He saw Jurassic Park
and that's where that all started) Starship Troopers was one of this
favorite movies also and well, you *need* guns to shoot the bad bugs! By
then I changed my thinking about guns, (along with watching wrestling on TV
<BG>) and they both had squirt guns and laser noisy guns to play with. There
was never any desire for other real looking kinds and the play was still
always shooting "bad" stuff. When Joseph decided to be an army guy for
Halloween because he liked the outfit, he wanted a machine gun to go alone.
He never played with, just carried it along on Halloween and put it away. I
think Alyssa broke it and no one missed it. He also has play knives from his
ninja costumes too.
The kids play wrestling games on playstation and Joseph likes army shooting
games and sniper type video games too. He's really pretty good at them and
even finished one game all the way through long before Joe was ever able to
get that far. Sierra loves wrestling and gets a kick out of smashing people
all over the place.
They know they are games and they know they aren't hurting real people or
animals or whatever. All my kids are gentle when it comes to other living
things. Joseph has gotten himself in the middle of a few squabbles with
other kids only because he tries to be the peacemaker. Sometimes the kids
don't want someone to stop them. He can't understand why people would want
to fight.
So no matter how many studies come out saying violent video games create
violent kids, ( and another just recently did come out saying that's a fact)
I don't listen. I can't possibly see how all the nurturing, love and respect
we give our kids would not be more of an influence than a game.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
home. We don't own any guns, never have and no one here has ever fired one.
When Joseph (almost 9 now) was little, I was not wanting him to play with
guns. Just didn't think it was a good idea. Not really sure why but I think
in part it was because I didn't want a violent little child who ran around
and pretended to shoot people. (like I had seen other children do at the
park) So my idea to just never have anyone buy him toy guns was put in
effect. I also must add that he never asked for any toy guns either.
Well eventually he would build guns out of Legos and plastic whatevers he
would find. When I would ask him about the "guns" he would explain that they
were tranquilizer guns and he was hunting dinosaurs. (He saw Jurassic Park
and that's where that all started) Starship Troopers was one of this
favorite movies also and well, you *need* guns to shoot the bad bugs! By
then I changed my thinking about guns, (along with watching wrestling on TV
<BG>) and they both had squirt guns and laser noisy guns to play with. There
was never any desire for other real looking kinds and the play was still
always shooting "bad" stuff. When Joseph decided to be an army guy for
Halloween because he liked the outfit, he wanted a machine gun to go alone.
He never played with, just carried it along on Halloween and put it away. I
think Alyssa broke it and no one missed it. He also has play knives from his
ninja costumes too.
The kids play wrestling games on playstation and Joseph likes army shooting
games and sniper type video games too. He's really pretty good at them and
even finished one game all the way through long before Joe was ever able to
get that far. Sierra loves wrestling and gets a kick out of smashing people
all over the place.
They know they are games and they know they aren't hurting real people or
animals or whatever. All my kids are gentle when it comes to other living
things. Joseph has gotten himself in the middle of a few squabbles with
other kids only because he tries to be the peacemaker. Sometimes the kids
don't want someone to stop them. He can't understand why people would want
to fight.
So no matter how many studies come out saying violent video games create
violent kids, ( and another just recently did come out saying that's a fact)
I don't listen. I can't possibly see how all the nurturing, love and respect
we give our kids would not be more of an influence than a game.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
[email protected]
Deb L's response was wonderful. Some of my favorite parts:
<<I wouldn't call myself pro gun any more than I would call myself pro
pointy stick.<g> >>
<< So, no, I'm not pro gun. I'm pro kid. >>
I'm not "pro gun." I'm anti-"anti-gun," because "anti-gun" not only doesn't
serve its intended purpose, it causes damage in the relationship and IF a
child gets a gun-fascination and is deprived of even playing with toy guns, he's
going to be a more dangerous teen/adult than one in whose lives guns were
treated like what they are instead of a demonized representation of all evil
violence. Chain saws are dangerous, but I don't know any mothers going on
anti-chain-saw rants. Electric drills are dangerous. Nail guns are dangerous.
(Even without exposure to the movies Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Pi and Color of
Night, respectively.)
Believing that gun-banishment is wrong is not the same as feeling guns should
be issued to all children and they should be put on a gun-use regimen.
This swinging from one extreme to another isn't good for thinking and it's
not good for discussion and it's REALLY bad for unschooling.
Here's what I think I thought about that a couple of months ago:
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com/HEM/206/ndunschool.html
(Balancing in the Middle Ground)
Sandra
<<I wouldn't call myself pro gun any more than I would call myself pro
pointy stick.<g> >>
<< So, no, I'm not pro gun. I'm pro kid. >>
I'm not "pro gun." I'm anti-"anti-gun," because "anti-gun" not only doesn't
serve its intended purpose, it causes damage in the relationship and IF a
child gets a gun-fascination and is deprived of even playing with toy guns, he's
going to be a more dangerous teen/adult than one in whose lives guns were
treated like what they are instead of a demonized representation of all evil
violence. Chain saws are dangerous, but I don't know any mothers going on
anti-chain-saw rants. Electric drills are dangerous. Nail guns are dangerous.
(Even without exposure to the movies Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Pi and Color of
Night, respectively.)
Believing that gun-banishment is wrong is not the same as feeling guns should
be issued to all children and they should be put on a gun-use regimen.
This swinging from one extreme to another isn't good for thinking and it's
not good for discussion and it's REALLY bad for unschooling.
Here's what I think I thought about that a couple of months ago:
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com/HEM/206/ndunschool.html
(Balancing in the Middle Ground)
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/6/03 9:07:45 AM, jrossedd@... writes:
<< Please refer me to threads in the archives or to other links if you'd
rather not explain onlist, but I am genuinely curious to know more about why
it appears (at least to me, for the moment) that there's a pro-gun
orientation
among experienced unschoolers. I never expected this topic to come up in
relation to unschooling, and if I had expected it, I'd likely have predicted
the
opposite leaning -- JJ
It's not pro-gun, it's anti-controlling.
Toy guns or video games, like television, food, bedtime, reading, clothes,
etc., all involve issues of learning, experimentation, thought, sharing,
individual preference, and the same arguments against requiring or restricting or
mom-chosen limits apply to guns as to so many other things.
Sandra
<< Please refer me to threads in the archives or to other links if you'd
rather not explain onlist, but I am genuinely curious to know more about why
it appears (at least to me, for the moment) that there's a pro-gun
orientation
among experienced unschoolers. I never expected this topic to come up in
relation to unschooling, and if I had expected it, I'd likely have predicted
the
opposite leaning -- JJ
>>I'm reading my e-mail backwards. Sorry.
It's not pro-gun, it's anti-controlling.
Toy guns or video games, like television, food, bedtime, reading, clothes,
etc., all involve issues of learning, experimentation, thought, sharing,
individual preference, and the same arguments against requiring or restricting or
mom-chosen limits apply to guns as to so many other things.
Sandra