Heidi

maybe it started out with something a bit less than good, but this
debate on spanking (which btw I have not been following: been too
busy by a LONG shot) brought it to mind.

My 10 year old, whose passion at this point is computer games, had
been playing off and on all day long. He had gotten to a higher level
than ever on one pretty cool game called Kid Chameleon...which
doesn't save. IOW, if he is to get to that level again, he will have
to start over at level one (stupid game, in that regard)

well, he'd been playing it for hours, literally. Like, at least three
without stopping. I had some things I absolutely HAD to do on the
computer, and it had to be right then, because I am coming down with
something and had to get to bed. Normally, I let him play however
long, but this time it simply had to be the way it was. I thought it
over "If he were an adult, would I ask him to finish up soon?" Yes. I
HAD to do computer stuff. (and yes, I do know adults who spend hours
at a time on the computer)

Anyway...that's the part that is "a bit less than good": making him
get off when he was obviously very into the game and having a great
time at it.

He did get off when I insisted, and went into major trauma mode. He
cried, he stormed off, he got VERY upset. I finished my computer
stuff pretty quick (under 10 min) while he wailed in his room. He
came back upstairs after I was ready for bed, sobbing and crying that
he hadn't ever gotten to that level before. What I didn't understand
at the time was, he couldn't start at that level; he has to start the
game over completely.

And here is where I did something good. Instead of rolling my
eyeballs and telling him to calm down, get over it, grow UP...I sat
down with him, put my arm around him as he sobbed, and said "That's
pretty frustrating."

"Yeah...hic...frustrating...hic...It took me CENTURIES to get to that
level! Sob, cry, wail...not centuries...but YEARSSSSSS!" and so
forth. I said to him "You've been playing that game today. Nov. 22 is
NOT years, it is one day" he stopped crying and looked at me.

"Okay, but ALL DAY LOOONNNNNGGGG! sob, cry, wail" and then I asked
him if we had other games that don't save "ye-heh-hessss" sob, cry, a
little less wailing. I asked him what games, and he told me a few,
and then I remembered a puzzle game I like that doesn't save, and
told him I knew how he felt, because that game frustrated me, too.

By this time, he was done crying and started telling me the favorite
parts of some of his games (we were lying down in my room, me and all
the kids) and answering questions about the games that I was asking
him. We talked about having a two-hours-at-a-time limit per person...
with each turn at the computer being only two hours, then handing it
over for someone else's two-hour turn. I also asked him if he needed
me to help him govern this part of his life,(i.e. restrict his time
at the computer) or could he govern himself. He thinks he can govern
himself.

Within less than a half hour after I made him get off the computer,
we were lying in bed together, calmly reading The Hobbit.

This could not have happened if I had not been in "Compassion Towards
Kids" mode, and I do have this list to thank for that. It is
impossible to say how the evening might have been different if I'd
gone at the overwhelming emotional response with an emotional
response of my own...or with a physical response such as "give you
something to CRY about, kid" and swatting him on the butt. One thing
I can say for sure...in former "control-the-kid" mode, we would have
had more crying, longer "recuperation," and broken fellowship that
would have needed mending.

well, just another little stepping stone in my own journey

thanks alla youse. much wisdom to be found, here.

blessings, HeidiC

[email protected]

HeidiC, that was a pretty cool story. I still feel really sorry for your
son, though.

<< We talked about having a two-hours-at-a-time limit per person...

with each turn at the computer being only two hours, then handing it

over for someone else's two-hour turn. >>

You didn't need two hours. Lots of times people don't need two hours.

Maybe just a "who's next" rule would work?

It has helped us IMMENSELY to have two computers. I have an expensive
Macintosh, but Kirby has a PC made of many used components which friends of his help
him keep operational. He's bought a new this-or-that from time to time. His
total expense with upgrades has been under $550 I think. (I threw in another
$50 because I dont know how much his new laser-mouse cost, whatever the
non-roller-ball things are called, and I have one too but I don't know its name
right now.)

If someone really has to check e-mail or send something, we have two places
to appeal, and usually one or the other is available.

I know not everybody can afford that, but it's helpful.

I have gone to bed and then gotten up later to get on the computer if my kids
couldn't easily relinquish it. Last night Marty had waited for me, and when
I let him on I didn't even say "but I need it back." I just let him have it
for the rest of the evening.

<<This could not have happened if I had not been in "Compassion Towards

Kids" mode, and I do have this list to thank for that. It is

impossible to say how the evening might have been different if I'd

gone at the overwhelming emotional response with an emotional

response of my own...or with a physical response such as "give you

something to CRY about, kid" and swatting him on the butt. One thing

I can say for sure...in former "control-the-kid" mode, we would have

had more crying, longer "recuperation," and broken fellowship that

would have needed mending.>>

I can still remember specific incidents from when I was a kid when there was
SO much noise and crying and spanking and fear and resentment, and my mom just
SEETHING with self-righteous anger, angry with us for "making her mad."

What a waste. It didn't make me love her more or trust her.

I love reading the stories here of people who might also have experienced
times like that and not only never gotten an apology themselves, but been made to
apologize for the inconvenience to the parent of the parent having to throw a
fit. (Talk about tantrums, my MOM used to have some!)

It's nice being around people who are working at peaceful lives.

My mom died earlier this month, and when being debriefed by friends and
relatives about it, and about how I was doing, I came to see that though things
with my mom were bad for me, the legacy of that is my conscious awareness that
there are better ways, and my interest in helping others see them.

When someone's life wasn't very bad, they have less incentive to move away
from it.

Yes, I've known WAY worse lives than mine was. But just because someone has
no feet doesn't mean I should go barefooted in the snow and shut up about it.

Just when I think I've made my kids' lives as good as I think they can be, I
find a way to make them even better. The natural human instinct to play the
game to the highest possible level can work in places other than business and
video games.

Sandra

Kelly Lenhart

>And here is where I did something good. Instead of rolling my
>eyeballs and telling him to calm down, get over it, grow UP...I sat
>down with him, put my arm around him as he sobbed, and said "That's
>pretty frustrating."

Been there, had this discussion.

In our case the younger brother shut off the game and I had to keep the
older from committing fratricide!

But it made a big difference that I "got it." And that I understood he'd
want to play again and more to make it up.

Poor kid. Remembers to save more often now.

Kelly

Robyn Coburn

<<It has helped us IMMENSELY to have two computers. I have an expensive
Macintosh, but Kirby has a PC made of many used components which friends of
his help
him keep operational. He's bought a new this-or-that from time to time.
His
total expense with upgrades has been under $550 I think. (I threw in
another
$50 because I dont know how much his new laser-mouse cost, whatever the
non-roller-ball things are called, and I have one too but I don't know its
name
right now.)

If someone really has to check e-mail or send something, we have two places
to appeal, and usually one or the other is available.

I know not everybody can afford that, but it's helpful.>>



Is it optical mouse? We have those too - they are less buggy and don't need
cleaning so much.



Whenever I hear people fussing about their kids being on the computer (not
here of course), I get baffled. Jayn at 4, is already an old hand at playing
computer games both on disc and on the internet (eg Nick Jr, Barbie.com,
Pocket Polly). The first time she started being interested in keyboards - we
gave her an old one to play with - I was full of delight. The pretend
computer didn't last long - the real ones are so much more interesting. I am
so impressed with her ability already with clicking the mouse etc. She is
just going to grow up enjoying being computer literate with no work on my
part.



My husband built our two desktop computers ( ie his and mine) from scratch,
purchasing most of the components at Fry's Electronics. I guess they cost
about $600, and are fast. Add to that extra software over the years and the
odd new motherboard, a hardware firewall, and now wireless technology, the
cost goes up - but still less than you might have paid for a new fully built
one with equal memory and speed. Last week we bought laptops for he and I,
so Jayn has pretty much inherited my old computer. I only get on it to look
at stuff that is historical - my old "favorites" list eg - or send faxes. I
get to haul my laptop to the bedroom and hang out with Jayn while she
watches Swan Lake for the umpteenth time. It has become not uncommon for
all of us to be engaged in electronic stuff at the same time - computers,
research, writing, games.



A word about costs - if you use your computer in your money earning - be it
graphics, creating invoices, writing articles, sending invoices (ie
jobsearch expenses) - don't forget that it is all deductible to greater or
lesser degrees.



When I stand at the front door to our apartment and look in to the living
room I see bookshelves lining the walls, the pretty big TV, Jayn's table
covered with art stuff, my sewing corner, the dining table kicked off on an
angle (because we use the dining room part of the L-shape as our office with
two armoires) and Jayn's toy "room" which is made from the coat closet and
nearby area. Shelves and storage cubes - it is actually under reasonable
control considering she has no room of her own to put her stuff in. Books,
magazines, art works in progress. Clutter but not out of control, and I tidy
before visitors as well as pick up each day. I think it is an enriched
environment, and indicative of a very creative and active little girl.



Yet whenever a parent visits our home for the first time, the invariable
initial comment, made with greater or lesser degrees of sniffing disapproval
is "What a lot of toys". The ones who get invited back are the few who say
it with delight.

<<I can still remember specific incidents from when I was a kid when there
was
SO much noise and crying and spanking and fear and resentment, and my mom
just
SEETHING with self-righteous anger, angry with us for "making her mad.">>



Me too. One time I was eating spaghetti, and my mother walked past and hit
me hard on the back. To this day I don't know what I did or said to set her
off. I wasn't choking - she was raging about??? All I remember of my
childhood with my mother is an endless round of being hit, and her being
sorry later, and I had to be the comforter. Happy times in my childhood are
always connected to other things - sometimes school (especially high
school), holidays with my grandmother, friends. But I have no happy memories
of my mother when she was not angry with me. I am so determined that Jayn
will have a different picture of family life.



Robyn L. Coburn






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/23/2003 12:35:09 PM Mountain Standard Time,
dezigna@... writes:
-=-Is it optical mouse? We have those too - they are less buggy and don't need
cleaning so much.-=-

Yes.. That's it. Thanks. Optical.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa M. Cottrell Bentley

> All I remember of my
> childhood with my mother is an endless round of being hit, and her being
> sorry later, and I had to be the comforter.

I thought that this was rare, I guess not! There is no way that I could
possibly count the thousands of nights that I didn't get enough sleep as a
child because my mother hit me, sending me into a crying or silent fit, then
made me suffer through her apologizing for the next 1-10+ hours until I
swore many times that I forgave her. The rare times that I refused to
forgive her right away, she kept me awake until I did. It was torture. I
got to the point that I made up homework to try and get away from it.
Emotional blackmail should never be done on a child (or any person!, but
especially a child).

I do love and care about my Mom, but I am grateful that I don't see her more
than a handful of times a year, because I get physically ill everytime a
visit is near and it lasts until the visit is over. My personality changes
some, too, and I am working on that.

-Lisa in AZ

Heidi

-- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> HeidiC, that was a pretty cool story. I still feel really sorry
for your
> son, though.

I felt SO BAD for him. In itself a huge indicator of a paradigm
shift. My Former Self would have at the very least put him in his
room. Or taken him over my knee. Or gotten angry and shouted right
back at him. This time, it was "Why is he responding this way? What
is happening in HIM that's making such a strong reaction?" Seeing it
from his point of view...WHAT a difference.

> << We talked about having a two-hours-at-a-time limit per person...
>
> with each turn at the computer being only two hours, then handing
it
>
> over for someone else's two-hour turn. >>
>
> You didn't need two hours. Lots of times people don't need two
hours.
>
> Maybe just a "who's next" rule would work?

Last night, he was on for longer than two hours, while we watched The
Extended Fellowship of the Ring. He played through the same game and
got higher than the level before, and when his dad (who is sleeping
on his recliner in the front room because of back pain) had him turn
off the computer, he calmly relinquished it, not a word except to
come and tell me the game was really easy to defeat the second time
around!

> If someone really has to check e-mail or send something, we have
two places
> to appeal, and usually one or the other is available.
>
> I know not everybody can afford that, but it's helpful.

We had two old computers sitting around cluttering up the back room,
and took them in to the computer recycling place. (doh) I'd like to
get one just for games and let em go at it to their hearts' content.
Those older editions didn't have enough memory to play some of these
higher graphic games, though....maybe some day...


> My mom died earlier this month, and when being debriefed by friends
and
> relatives about it, and about how I was doing, I came to see that
though things
> with my mom were bad for me, the legacy of that is my conscious
awareness that
> there are better ways, and my interest in helping others see them.

Sandra, I'm sorry about your mom. One of the blessings in my life is
that my parents and my siblings and I are all still friends...even
though I remember parental tantrums, too...from both mom and dad. :(

blessings, HeidiC

Shannon

-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd


My mom died earlier this month, and when being debriefed by friends and
relatives about it, and about how I was doing, I came to see that though
things
with my mom were bad for me, the legacy of that is my conscious awareness
that
there are better ways, and my interest in helping others see them.>>>



My condolences to you Sandra. You were just talking not too long ago about
your mom not answering the phone when you called. I had no idea she was
that close to dying. I realize the two of you were not that close, but it's
still hard to lose a family member. ((((()))))

Shan




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/24/03 3:40:33 PM, davenshan@... writes:

<< My condolences to you Sandra. You were just talking not too long ago about
your mom not answering the phone when you called. I had no idea she was
that close to dying. I realize the two of you were not that close, but it's
still hard to lose a family member. >>

Yeah, it's like nothing ever before. Thanks.

I didn't think I'd feel orphaned if I was old enough to be a grandmother.
But a kind of visceral feeling came and stayed with me for a couple of days.
Instincts I couldn't recognize were urging me to do something I couldn't figure
out. It felt as real as the instinct to pick up a crying baby, but I didn't
know what I was supposed to do.

Probably wash the body and bury it or something. Maybe call all my relatives
and declare myself alpha female (or however the chimps do). Maybe put on my
medieval clothes and sing a song in Anglo Saxon. So I picked up my mom's
ashes, called relatives and told them she died at home in her bed which was the
way her mother died, which was the way she wanted to die, and I watched Arwen
sing a song in Anglo Saxon on the extended Two Towers DVD.

It was the closest I could come to settling those nerve-signals that probably
only come once in a lifetime.

Sandra

[email protected]

So sorry to hear about your mom Sandra. I would have told you sooner but our
family has been in and out of the state taking care of Kevin's mom who's
dying. I just got back to reading from the list and found out. Hope you are doing
well.

Kim
N.H.