Brian and Kathy Stamp

I belong to another list where a lady had been asking for help with disciplining her daughter. She spanks her children because she believes it's biblical. I and some other ladies emailed her that spanking was not biblical. She has lightened up a bit but she also emailed the following back to the list. I know that meanings get lost through translations but was wondering if any of you have a way I could explain the following to her so she can understand.

Here's what she wrote and the proverb she is referring to:

"That said, I have been spanking less. Not because I don't believe it's biblical. "Apply your heart to
discipline And your ears to words of knowledge. Do not hold back discipline from the child, Although
you strike him with the rod, he will not die. You shall strike him with the rod And rescue his soul from
Sheol." I don't know how you can reconcile a belief that spanking is not biblical with this proverb.
However, for the time being, I am trying to win back my child's heart by showing mercy. I am not
spanking except for an obvious rebellious attitude. An then only when I am sure she is not hungry,
tired, or feeling sick. "

Thanks for any help.

Kathy
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I have read and researched the biblical basis for spanking. There are ways
that the scriptures can be interpretted in some places in the bible that
"explain way" spanking. But, in reality, most of scriptures that refer to spanking
can't really be translated to mean anything else than hitting your child with
a stick. I found this article, and this particular section to be very
helpful in dealing with "biblical mandate" to spank

http://www.stophitting.com/disathome/factsAndFiction.php

Spanking Argument #4 - “The bible says 'Spare the rod and spoil the child'
and I must obey God”

Spanking is deeply rooted in the history and culture of the United States.
The bible is often used to support, even perhaps to require, that parents use
corporal punishment on children. Many clergy today are speaking out against that
interpretation of scripture. The Reverend Dr. Thomas E. Sagendorf of Bexley
United Methodist Church in Columbus, OH says the following “I can find no
sanction in the teaching of Jesus or the witness of the New Testament to encourage
the practice of corporal punishment at home, school or anywhere else. A number
of popular voices take a different view, often quoting Old Testament
scriptures to prove their point. Those who subscribe to this argument misunderstand
and misuse scripture. A similar method of selective reading could just as well
be used to justify slavery, suppression of women, polygamy, incest and
infanticide”.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], "Brian and
Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@c...> wrote:

> Here's what she wrote and the proverb she is referring to:
>
> "That said, I have been spanking less. Not because I don't
believe it's biblical. "Apply your heart to
> discipline And your ears to words of knowledge. Do not hold
back discipline from the child, Although
> you strike him with the rod, he will not die. You shall strike him
with the rod And rescue his soul from
> Sheol." I don't know how you can reconcile a belief that
spanking is not biblical with this proverb.
> However, for the time being, I am trying to win back my child's
heart by showing mercy. I am not
> spanking except for an obvious rebellious attitude. An then only
when I am sure she is not hungry,
> tired, or feeling sick. "
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
> Kathy

Kathy, for biblical literalists, helping them dissociate from
fundamentalist teachings about Christian parenting is a very
difficult task. What worked for me was the deconstruction of the
bible itself—recognizing how many places I don't operate on the
literal level with Scripture. A couple examples: I don't wear a veil
or head covering, I still wear makeup and gold jewelry, we don't
baptize the dead, and we don't marry our girls off at 14 either.
There is not clear teaching on parenting. There are inferences
that moderns use to create these massive parnetal routines and
structures that probably bear little resemblance to actual
practices of the ancient world. (I remember that the Ezzos, for
instance, inferred that Mary must have had Jesus on a schedule
because she was so busy with first century tasks such as
getting water from the well.... Ugh! That's the kind of ignorance
peddled as biblical parenting that makes me ill.)

The supposed biblical mandate for spanking has always
seemed suspicious to me because you can be sure that the
Jews of the OT didn't take their children into a bathroom with a
wooden spoon and follow the steps outlined by Dr. Dobson
when they smacked their chidlren. children were viewed as
mini-adults until Freud. Seriously. Violence against those who
didn't obey was routine for centuries. There was no internal self
to appeal to. External regulation was all that humans knew.
Everything has changed since the Enlightenment.

Ross Campbell and Dr. Sears (both Christian authors) helped
me a lot when I was sorting through these issues.

Currently, I like the book by Dr. Michael Bradley _Yes, Your Teen
is Crazy_ which does a great job explaining why parenting
methods by necessity have had to change in the 20th century.
He's not a Christian though.

As far as spanking being biblical or not—the OT definitely does
affirm its value. What I like to point to is the NT and how Jesus
teaches us to treat others. If we insert our children into the
contexts he speaks of, we have a very different approach than
spanking. "Turn the other cheek" "Go the extra mile" "Give your
coat" "Bless and curse not" "Do not judge" Even the story of the
prodigal son can be read to show that the father is not held
responsible for the rebellion of the son but that his role is
forgiver and receiver when the son returns.

Just a few of my thoughts. I'll do some looking around for other
resources to help you out.

Julie B

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/03 10:54:01 AM, TeresaBnNC@... writes:

<< "A similar method of selective reading could just as well

be used to justify slavery, suppression of women, polygamy, incest and

infanticide” >>

And HAS been!!

Thanks for bringing that, Teresa!

Spankers spank because they were spanked.
It seems in some extreme cases that brawlers and murderers and spouse abusers
and rapists do all that because they were spanked, too.

I've heard that there was a study on violent criminals in penitentiaries, and
what they had in common was corporal punishment as children.

Sandra

[email protected]

Kathy,

There are links here to some other similar arguments (against spanking)
and accounts from some families who used to spank for Biblical reasons, and
how their lives changed for the better when they stopped.

http://sandradodd.com/spanking

Most of the stories have been collected from www.unschooling.com and from
this list.

Sandra

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected],
SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/9/03 10:54:01 AM, TeresaBnNC@a...
writes:
>
> << "A similar method of selective reading could just as well
>
> be used to justify slavery, suppression of women, polygamy,
incest and
>
> infanticide� >>
>
> And HAS been!!
>
> Thanks for bringing that, Teresa!
>
> Spankers spank because they were spanked.

Not necessarily. I wasn't spanked and my parents didn't believe
in spanking and we spanked. We believed the biblical teaching...
but it did, over time, worry us that it wasn't the right thing to do...


> It seems in some extreme cases that brawlers and murderers
and spouse abusers
> and rapists do all that because they were spanked, too.

And there are lots of adults whow ere spanked who are none of
those things.
>
> I've heard that there was a study on violent criminals in
penitentiaries, and
> what they had in common was corporal punishment as
children.

Corporal punishment is so common in america, you'll find
people of all kinds across the spectrum who grew up with
spanking—respectable citizens and felons.

Julie B

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/03 11:46:49 AM, julie@... writes:

<< children were viewed as

mini-adults until Freud. Seriously. Violence against those who

didn't obey was routine for centuries. There was no internal self

to appeal to. External regulation was all that humans knew.

Everything has changed since the Enlightenment. >>

If this were all true, that would mean every culture smacks kids, and that is
not so.

Be careful about generalizing Judeo-Christian history to the whole earth.
There are a lot of people who didn't come from that line of thinking.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/03 12:40:59 PM, julie@... writes:

<< Corporal punishment is so common in america, you'll find

people of all kinds across the spectrum who grew up with

spanking—respectable citizens and felons. >>

Probably not with the same proportions as the felons.

Statistics on who's in prison indicate all KINDS of things, but lots are not
easy to track. One is broken homes, but that covers mothers throw father out,
mother didn't know who father was, father ran off, mother ran off. And there
are genetic factors.

I doubt you'll find NEARLY the same stats in a group of similarly similar
people. Senators are probably more likely to have had intact homes and less
violence. "Respectable citizens" (depending how you isolated your group) would
probably not have the same background similarities as felons.

I could be wrong, but defending spanking is an odd use of this list, don't
you think?

Sandra

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected],
SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/9/03 11:46:49 AM, julie@b... writes:
>
> << children were viewed as
>
> mini-adults until Freud. Seriously. Violence against those who
>
> didn't obey was routine for centuries. There was no internal
self
>
> to appeal to. External regulation was all that humans knew.
>
> Everything has changed since the Enlightenment. >>
>
> If this were all true, that would mean every culture smacks kids,
and that is
> not so.
>
> Be careful about generalizing Judeo-Christian history to the
whole earth.
> There are a lot of people who didn't come from that line of
thinking.

I thought it was clear we were talking about the middle east and
semitic cultures. i wasn't generalizing to the whole earth.

Julie

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected],
SandraDodd@a... wrote:

> I could be wrong, but defending spanking is an odd use of this
list, don't
> you think?

Sure. :)

Julie

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/03 2:18:58 PM, julie@... writes:

<< External regulation was all that humans knew. >>

That's the phrase that made me think you were thinking about all humans.

Sandra

Julie Solich

> I belong to another list where a lady had been asking for help with
disciplining her daughter. She spanks her children because she believes it's
biblical. I and some other ladies emailed her that spanking was not
biblical. She has lightened up a bit but she also emailed the following
back to the list. I know that meanings get lost through translations but was
wondering if any of you have a way I could explain the following to her so
she can understand.

Kathy

I would tell her to take a look to see how Solomon's kids turned out froom
all those encounters with rods. But she might consider that to be
blasphemous. <eg>

I always point people to Jesus to see what he thought of children and how he
dealt with them. It's always gentle and loving. And he did say to love your
neighbour as yourself which includes your kids.

Julie



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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
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> [email protected]
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>

joylyn

From my understanding, the rod refers to the guiding tool/hook that
shepards use to guide sheep. A shepard would not hit his sheep, they
are his livelihood. But he does guide them, pull them back to him if
they get off the path, etc. Personally that is what I think that quote
means...

Joylyn

TeresaBnNC@... wrote:

> I have read and researched the biblical basis for spanking. There are
> ways
> that the scriptures can be interpretted in some places in the bible that
> "explain way" spanking. But, in reality, most of scriptures that
> refer to spanking
> can't really be translated to mean anything else than hitting your
> child with
> a stick. I found this article, and this particular section to be very
> helpful in dealing with "biblical mandate" to spank
>
> http://www.stophitting.com/disathome/factsAndFiction.php
>
> Spanking Argument #4 - “The bible says 'Spare the rod and spoil the
> child'
> and I must obey God”
>
> Spanking is deeply rooted in the history and culture of the United
> States.
> The bible is often used to support, even perhaps to require, that
> parents use
> corporal punishment on children. Many clergy today are speaking out
> against that
> interpretation of scripture. The Reverend Dr. Thomas E. Sagendorf of
> Bexley
> United Methodist Church in Columbus, OH says the following “I can find no
> sanction in the teaching of Jesus or the witness of the New Testament
> to encourage
> the practice of corporal punishment at home, school or anywhere else.
> A number
> of popular voices take a different view, often quoting Old Testament
> scriptures to prove their point. Those who subscribe to this argument
> misunderstand
> and misuse scripture. A similar method of selective reading could just
> as well
> be used to justify slavery, suppression of women, polygamy, incest and
> infanticide”.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/03 8:54:59 PM, mjsolich@... writes:

<< I always point people to Jesus to see what he thought of children and how
he

dealt with them. It's always gentle and loving. And he did say to love your

neighbour as yourself which includes your kids.

>>

Seems some Christians have found Biblical justification for
self-flaggelation. <g>
Those tended not to have children, generally, but not always!
The Penitente sect of northern New Mexico is into flailing themownselves some.

Sandra

Amy and Cory Nelson

> I've heard that there was a study on violent criminals in penitentiaries, and
> what they had in common was corporal punishment as children.

My dh is a therapist in a correctional facility. Every single inmate he's
ever counseled or done an intake on received some form of corporal
punishment as a child. He only remembers a few who were not abused at all.

Amy
Mama to Accalia (6/14/99) and Cole (9/03/02)
"Allow children to be happy in their own way, for what better
way will they find?"
--Dr, Samuel Johnson
http://thissideofsomewhere.blogspot.com/

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], joylyn
<joylyn@e...> wrote:
> From my understanding, the rod refers to the guiding tool/hook
that
> shepards use to guide sheep. A shepard would not hit his
sheep, they
> are his livelihood. But he does guide them, pull them back to
him if
> they get off the path, etc. Personally that is what I think that
quote
> means...
>
> Joylyn

That's the staff.

Julie B

[email protected]

Spanking Argument #4 - “The bible says 'Spare the rod and spoil the
> child' and I must obey God”
+++++++++++
What if the above is a commandment, to be taken at face value?? This could
very well be a message to put down the rod and love our children...

diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
"You can follow your book and your map of wars, but I'll go and follow my
kids." -- Woody Guthrie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected],
HaHaMommy@a... wrote:
> Spanking Argument #4 - “The bible says 'Spare the rod and
spoil the
> > child' and I must obey God�
> +++++++++++
> What if the above is a commandment, to be taken at face
value?? This could
> very well be a message to put down the rod and love our
children...

Diana, I love that idea. :)

Julie B

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/10/03 9:40:53 AM, HaHaMommy@... writes:

<< What if the above is a commandment, to be taken at face value?? This
could

very well be a message to put down the rod and love our children...


diana, >>

What a cool interpretation! A commandment to spare the rod!!

Sandra