sleeping (answer to Amy's question)
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/03 9:26:52 PM, arcarpenter@... writes:
<< As far as bedtime goes, do most of you just let your kids sleep when
they're
tired? (Gee, it sounds so sensible when I put it that way. <g>) It's a
beautiful night and I love the idea of Fisher being able to enjoy it with me
(I'm a
night walker) . . . but I also get kind of an icky feeling when we get in the
habit of sleeping late in the morning. I hate to miss the beautiful early
morning hours, and I guess years of socialization has taught me to feel lazy
when I (or my son) sleep in. >>
Darn that socialization.
Just earlier this evening Holly was telling me a story about an Arthur
episode in which Muffy, whose dad sells cars (so they're one of the richest families
in town), had rented a haunted house for Halloween--a REAL house--and the
kids were in there telling scary stories, and then "at midnight or 9:00 or
whenever they were supposed to go to bed..." and she continued on with the story.
When we only had Kirby, and then Kirby and Marty (2.5 years apart), people
would ask us "When does he go to bed?" and our standard answer was "about half
an hour after he goes to sleep."
We'd get them in pajamas and cleaned up early evening, if we were home, but
we did'nt "put them in bed." If someone got sleepy, I might go lie down and
read to him, or put on his favorite tape. Usually they'd fall asleep in my lap
or their dad's.
Kirby was driven to sleep for a while. It never bothered them to wake up in
the bed having fallen asleep elsewhere. That was standard for them.
<< It's a beautiful night and I love the idea of Fisher being able to enjoy
it with me (I'm a
night walker) >>
Nighttime is great. Cool, quiet, the moon...
Did you see Late Night Learning?
http://sandradodd.com/latenightlearning
<< It's a beautiful night and I love the idea of Fisher being able to enjoy
it with me (I'm a
night walker) >>
I rarely miss the early morning myself, but my advantage is that I can
usually do with six hours of sleep. I go through phases (short ones) of sleeping
longer, but "long" for me is nine hours. When the kids were little they would
come and play on my bed if I was still asleep when they woke up (unless I was
already in their bed).
It bothered me at first. We used to have rules: Everybody asleep by 5:00
a.m. I made that rule because my husband would grump if a kid was up when he
went to work. Grump at me, not the kid. Then after a while I mentioned to him
that they were supposed to be in bed before he went to work, and he said
"Why?" I guess over a few weeks or months he had decided it wasn't so bad, them
being up playing on the computer when there was no competition to get on it.
For a while we had a policy of "get up by noon," and that too was my hoping
to keep my husband from chanelling his mother at us. But now we have "be
quiet until noon if people are sleeping. At noon it's okay to play music or
videos or to dance around or sing. If people are woken up after noon, that's fair
play.
Twice in the past year Kirby has done an all-nighter. One was a sci-fi
convention, and one was a LAN party. Both times he stayed up all Saturday night,
went to work or did whatever he needed to do on Sunday, and crashed out early
Sunday night, sleeping until 11:00 or so Monday, and was all recovered.
Sandra
<< As far as bedtime goes, do most of you just let your kids sleep when
they're
tired? (Gee, it sounds so sensible when I put it that way. <g>) It's a
beautiful night and I love the idea of Fisher being able to enjoy it with me
(I'm a
night walker) . . . but I also get kind of an icky feeling when we get in the
habit of sleeping late in the morning. I hate to miss the beautiful early
morning hours, and I guess years of socialization has taught me to feel lazy
when I (or my son) sleep in. >>
Darn that socialization.
Just earlier this evening Holly was telling me a story about an Arthur
episode in which Muffy, whose dad sells cars (so they're one of the richest families
in town), had rented a haunted house for Halloween--a REAL house--and the
kids were in there telling scary stories, and then "at midnight or 9:00 or
whenever they were supposed to go to bed..." and she continued on with the story.
When we only had Kirby, and then Kirby and Marty (2.5 years apart), people
would ask us "When does he go to bed?" and our standard answer was "about half
an hour after he goes to sleep."
We'd get them in pajamas and cleaned up early evening, if we were home, but
we did'nt "put them in bed." If someone got sleepy, I might go lie down and
read to him, or put on his favorite tape. Usually they'd fall asleep in my lap
or their dad's.
Kirby was driven to sleep for a while. It never bothered them to wake up in
the bed having fallen asleep elsewhere. That was standard for them.
<< It's a beautiful night and I love the idea of Fisher being able to enjoy
it with me (I'm a
night walker) >>
Nighttime is great. Cool, quiet, the moon...
Did you see Late Night Learning?
http://sandradodd.com/latenightlearning
<< It's a beautiful night and I love the idea of Fisher being able to enjoy
it with me (I'm a
night walker) >>
I rarely miss the early morning myself, but my advantage is that I can
usually do with six hours of sleep. I go through phases (short ones) of sleeping
longer, but "long" for me is nine hours. When the kids were little they would
come and play on my bed if I was still asleep when they woke up (unless I was
already in their bed).
It bothered me at first. We used to have rules: Everybody asleep by 5:00
a.m. I made that rule because my husband would grump if a kid was up when he
went to work. Grump at me, not the kid. Then after a while I mentioned to him
that they were supposed to be in bed before he went to work, and he said
"Why?" I guess over a few weeks or months he had decided it wasn't so bad, them
being up playing on the computer when there was no competition to get on it.
For a while we had a policy of "get up by noon," and that too was my hoping
to keep my husband from chanelling his mother at us. But now we have "be
quiet until noon if people are sleeping. At noon it's okay to play music or
videos or to dance around or sing. If people are woken up after noon, that's fair
play.
Twice in the past year Kirby has done an all-nighter. One was a sci-fi
convention, and one was a LAN party. Both times he stayed up all Saturday night,
went to work or did whatever he needed to do on Sunday, and crashed out early
Sunday night, sleeping until 11:00 or so Monday, and was all recovered.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10-7-2003 10:39:55 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
We used to have rules: Everybody asleep by 5:00
a.m. I made that rule because my husband would grump if a kid was up when he
went to work. Grump at me, not the kid. Then after a while I mentioned to
him that they were supposed to be in bed before he went to work, and he said
"Why?" I guess over a few weeks or months he had decided it wasn't so bad, them
being up playing on the computer when there was no competition to get on it.
For a while we had a policy of "get up by noon," and that too was my hoping
to keep my husband from chanelling his mother at us. But now we have "be
quiet until noon if people are sleeping. At noon it's okay to play music or
videos or to dance around or sing. If people are woken up after noon, that's fair
play.
**************************
It warms my heart to know you've made reforms in your style. Sometimes I
just think you were born *this* mom, forgetting that you had to journey to get
there too! Thanks for the inspiration! <bg>
diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
"You can follow your book and your map of wars, but I'll go and follow my
kids." -- Woody Guthrie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
We used to have rules: Everybody asleep by 5:00
a.m. I made that rule because my husband would grump if a kid was up when he
went to work. Grump at me, not the kid. Then after a while I mentioned to
him that they were supposed to be in bed before he went to work, and he said
"Why?" I guess over a few weeks or months he had decided it wasn't so bad, them
being up playing on the computer when there was no competition to get on it.
For a while we had a policy of "get up by noon," and that too was my hoping
to keep my husband from chanelling his mother at us. But now we have "be
quiet until noon if people are sleeping. At noon it's okay to play music or
videos or to dance around or sing. If people are woken up after noon, that's fair
play.
**************************
It warms my heart to know you've made reforms in your style. Sometimes I
just think you were born *this* mom, forgetting that you had to journey to get
there too! Thanks for the inspiration! <bg>
diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
"You can follow your book and your map of wars, but I'll go and follow my
kids." -- Woody Guthrie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/03 11:02:49 PM, HaHaMommy@... writes:
<< It warms my heart to know you've made reforms in your style. >>
Hey, I found a rudimentary chore chart a few months ago. We tried about five
years ago to have daily things. It was "friendly," and had things like "play
with the dog" and "put twenty things away" and stuff, but it was a chart, and
it never worked, and we didn't try long after it was obviously more
irritation that it was worth.
We had food freedom and bedtime freedom before we considered homeschooling.
We were quick to let TV be freeer than most of our friends. Kirby was a big
Ninja Turtle fan and we watched it to see if we wanted to let him watch it (I
think he was three), and we laughed and decided the thing it glorified most was
Japanese management theory.
Then came unschooling (I didn't pass through curriculum, because I knew two
unschooling families) and I guess last and lately came the change of attitude
about housework, thanks to things others wrote at www.unschooling.com!
Sandra
<< It warms my heart to know you've made reforms in your style. >>
Hey, I found a rudimentary chore chart a few months ago. We tried about five
years ago to have daily things. It was "friendly," and had things like "play
with the dog" and "put twenty things away" and stuff, but it was a chart, and
it never worked, and we didn't try long after it was obviously more
irritation that it was worth.
We had food freedom and bedtime freedom before we considered homeschooling.
We were quick to let TV be freeer than most of our friends. Kirby was a big
Ninja Turtle fan and we watched it to see if we wanted to let him watch it (I
think he was three), and we laughed and decided the thing it glorified most was
Japanese management theory.
Then came unschooling (I didn't pass through curriculum, because I knew two
unschooling families) and I guess last and lately came the change of attitude
about housework, thanks to things others wrote at www.unschooling.com!
Sandra
Kris
Last night I fell asleep at about 1 am, Jonathan konked out about an hour
later and Lanora was still on the computer when I woke up this morning at
9am. It works well because Jonathan feels insecure being awake when
everyone else is asleep, so Lanora is still up after I'm out. I miss having
more "awake" time together with Lanora but it's only a phase, an hour
together before J wakes up is good too.
This seems to be a regular schedule for us right now but it seems to change
and shift, no rhyme or reason. Lanora's friends refer to her as "Vampira",
she makes jokes about "THE LIGHT!" while hissing in mock fear.
Having bed times and trying to enforce them caused more unhappiness and
anger than I care to remember. I can hear my mother's voice in my head
sometimes, "The day is already gone, you've slept it away!" but I don't let
it reverberate out my mouth to the kids. Some people ask me about it,
wondering how kids can function with these hours, I say, "They get enough
sleep and, for me, that's all that matters."
Kris
later and Lanora was still on the computer when I woke up this morning at
9am. It works well because Jonathan feels insecure being awake when
everyone else is asleep, so Lanora is still up after I'm out. I miss having
more "awake" time together with Lanora but it's only a phase, an hour
together before J wakes up is good too.
This seems to be a regular schedule for us right now but it seems to change
and shift, no rhyme or reason. Lanora's friends refer to her as "Vampira",
she makes jokes about "THE LIGHT!" while hissing in mock fear.
Having bed times and trying to enforce them caused more unhappiness and
anger than I care to remember. I can hear my mother's voice in my head
sometimes, "The day is already gone, you've slept it away!" but I don't let
it reverberate out my mouth to the kids. Some people ask me about it,
wondering how kids can function with these hours, I say, "They get enough
sleep and, for me, that's all that matters."
Kris
Robyn Coburn
<<Last night I fell asleep at about 1 am, Jonathan konked out about an
hour
later and Lanora was still on the computer when I woke up this morning
at
9am. It works well because Jonathan feels insecure being awake when
everyone else is asleep, so Lanora is still up after I'm out. I miss
having
more "awake" time together with Lanora but it's only a phase, an hour
together before J wakes up is good too.>>
Our life is so turned around at the moment because of Jayn's sleeping.
She will be 4 next week. She was formerly (since the middle of summer I
guess) on a kind of round the clock march - her "day" was 26 hours long,
versus nature's 24. Her sleep and wake would shift slowly, until she and
I would go to bed at 6am-7am-8am. Then she would suddenly flip flop and
instead of her 2-3hour nap in the middle of her "afternoon" she would go
to bed and then get up at 7am. Then the slow march would begin again. I
prefer to stay up with her because otherwise she would be spending the
majority of her wide-awake and full of questions time (her "evening")
alone & lonely, she gets hungry, and I miss out on being with her.
Sometimes dh has taken the morning shift, as he is an
early-riser/nap-in-the-afternoon-if-possible guy.
For the last month, however, to his and my dismay, she has stalled in
the stay up all night place. If left alone she gets up at 4pm. Usually
not hungry for a couple of hours. Dinner at 8-9pm is her brunch. May nap
as early as 11 or 12 with snack of nursing, but often stays up, partly
because she has gotten less exercise. Wakes between 1-2am, usually
hungry, and then stays awake for 7 hours after she awakens - and here is
a crucial point - regardless of whether she napped for 20 minutes or 3
hours. Sleeps a good solid 8 hours and gets up at .4pm. I have found
that the only way to make any change is literally to get her up and
immediately out the door to some activity. Her dance class is at 1pm,
her ice-skating even earlier at 11.55am. However she pulls it back into
a longer nap to make up for the lost 4 hours. I am very tired and grumpy
by 3-4am, and often fall asleep on the couch with her watching tv (see
other email about tv shows). DH is staying up later and later just for
the sake of being around us, and is suffering consequent grumps, because
he still is getting up earlier than us around 10am or so. Sometimes I
can't sleep and get up "early" at noon or 1pm also, but still with the
expectation of being up until 6-7-8am the next morning. I have also
tried:
*disturbing her nap to make the 7 hour gap to bedtime start earlier -
result: negative "I need more sleep" - Boy does she ever like to sleep
when she likes to sleep. Sample conversation - DH: "Are you going to let
her sleep now?" Me: "Be my guest".5 minutes later DH: "I guess she
really wants to sleep" ;
*toss her in the tub to awaken her rather than have a nap (Not literal
toss of course) - result: her nap starts later, and creates a worsening
situation for sleep deprived mother, although she is usually fine. Or
she just forgoes the nap part that day and still goes to sleep for the
long sleep at 6am;
*Tiring her out - eg today at the park - result - usually extends
naptime by starting earlier, sometimes, oh joy, goes to bed earlier but
still stays asleep until 4pm unless dragged out - see earlier note about
attempting to awaken. Unfortunately, the going out often seems to result
in coming home in the car just when a nap would be least helpful -
naturally Jayn loves to sleep in the car.
It is so distressing because in terms of the number of hours in her day,
it would seem to be at 24 like everyone else. I wish she could have done
her flip around to reasonably ordinary hours and *then* slowed her
internal clock. When she was little, we used to go to bed between 11 and
12 and get up at 9-10, unless needing to get out earlier. DH used to
complain that 11am was late for his breakfast - ah the good old days. We
are missing out on doing things as a family to a great degree (upsets
dh) and it is causing me distress by being tired and grumpier than I
need to be. Other than in reaction to me grumping at her, Jayn is fine,
growing taller very fast, doing lots of art projects and indoor stuff,
and seeing her friends for playdates that start around 2-3pm, and
largely willing to get up and out for scheduled events. On the major
plus side, she has been still sleeping when the obnoxious neighbor has
come around looking to play a couple of times, so "it is an ill wind
that brings no good at all".
Out-of-the-box suggestions welcome, but mostly here we do have
acceptance of the situation, at least on my part, and James is trying
really hard to keep biting his tongue.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hour
later and Lanora was still on the computer when I woke up this morning
at
9am. It works well because Jonathan feels insecure being awake when
everyone else is asleep, so Lanora is still up after I'm out. I miss
having
more "awake" time together with Lanora but it's only a phase, an hour
together before J wakes up is good too.>>
Our life is so turned around at the moment because of Jayn's sleeping.
She will be 4 next week. She was formerly (since the middle of summer I
guess) on a kind of round the clock march - her "day" was 26 hours long,
versus nature's 24. Her sleep and wake would shift slowly, until she and
I would go to bed at 6am-7am-8am. Then she would suddenly flip flop and
instead of her 2-3hour nap in the middle of her "afternoon" she would go
to bed and then get up at 7am. Then the slow march would begin again. I
prefer to stay up with her because otherwise she would be spending the
majority of her wide-awake and full of questions time (her "evening")
alone & lonely, she gets hungry, and I miss out on being with her.
Sometimes dh has taken the morning shift, as he is an
early-riser/nap-in-the-afternoon-if-possible guy.
For the last month, however, to his and my dismay, she has stalled in
the stay up all night place. If left alone she gets up at 4pm. Usually
not hungry for a couple of hours. Dinner at 8-9pm is her brunch. May nap
as early as 11 or 12 with snack of nursing, but often stays up, partly
because she has gotten less exercise. Wakes between 1-2am, usually
hungry, and then stays awake for 7 hours after she awakens - and here is
a crucial point - regardless of whether she napped for 20 minutes or 3
hours. Sleeps a good solid 8 hours and gets up at .4pm. I have found
that the only way to make any change is literally to get her up and
immediately out the door to some activity. Her dance class is at 1pm,
her ice-skating even earlier at 11.55am. However she pulls it back into
a longer nap to make up for the lost 4 hours. I am very tired and grumpy
by 3-4am, and often fall asleep on the couch with her watching tv (see
other email about tv shows). DH is staying up later and later just for
the sake of being around us, and is suffering consequent grumps, because
he still is getting up earlier than us around 10am or so. Sometimes I
can't sleep and get up "early" at noon or 1pm also, but still with the
expectation of being up until 6-7-8am the next morning. I have also
tried:
*disturbing her nap to make the 7 hour gap to bedtime start earlier -
result: negative "I need more sleep" - Boy does she ever like to sleep
when she likes to sleep. Sample conversation - DH: "Are you going to let
her sleep now?" Me: "Be my guest".5 minutes later DH: "I guess she
really wants to sleep" ;
*toss her in the tub to awaken her rather than have a nap (Not literal
toss of course) - result: her nap starts later, and creates a worsening
situation for sleep deprived mother, although she is usually fine. Or
she just forgoes the nap part that day and still goes to sleep for the
long sleep at 6am;
*Tiring her out - eg today at the park - result - usually extends
naptime by starting earlier, sometimes, oh joy, goes to bed earlier but
still stays asleep until 4pm unless dragged out - see earlier note about
attempting to awaken. Unfortunately, the going out often seems to result
in coming home in the car just when a nap would be least helpful -
naturally Jayn loves to sleep in the car.
It is so distressing because in terms of the number of hours in her day,
it would seem to be at 24 like everyone else. I wish she could have done
her flip around to reasonably ordinary hours and *then* slowed her
internal clock. When she was little, we used to go to bed between 11 and
12 and get up at 9-10, unless needing to get out earlier. DH used to
complain that 11am was late for his breakfast - ah the good old days. We
are missing out on doing things as a family to a great degree (upsets
dh) and it is causing me distress by being tired and grumpier than I
need to be. Other than in reaction to me grumping at her, Jayn is fine,
growing taller very fast, doing lots of art projects and indoor stuff,
and seeing her friends for playdates that start around 2-3pm, and
largely willing to get up and out for scheduled events. On the major
plus side, she has been still sleeping when the obnoxious neighbor has
come around looking to play a couple of times, so "it is an ill wind
that brings no good at all".
Out-of-the-box suggestions welcome, but mostly here we do have
acceptance of the situation, at least on my part, and James is trying
really hard to keep biting his tongue.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
catherine aceto
Can you try going without electricity for a week or so in the evening? I have read theories that the electric lights messes with the seratonin (sp? right neurochemical?) production in some susceptible people and messes with the sleep cycle. Of course, it sounds like she is sleeping a normal number of hours. But anyway FWIW, the times that we have been camping, my two nightowls got gradually sleepier as it grew dark and were asleep by the time it was fully dark (cuddled with me on a blanket by the campfire -- very sweet). Also, it could help if your bedroom curtains were open so that she experienced the light growing in the morning (this seems to have less effect on us, but I will toss it out there.).
For us, it also makes a difference when we eat dinner (generally between 8 and midnight). I've noticed that my 5 yo is sleepier earlier if we have dinner earlier - which certainly makes a kind of biological sense, although "Dinner" is mostly a social marker -- we are all at the table eating and talking together, as opposed to the individual grazing that we generallydo the rest of the time. She often eats in the evening before and after "dinner" but these don't seem to influence sleep as much as the changing time of 'dinner' does.
Anyway, I'll throw it out there as a suggestion (and will start being grateful that we are all in sync to be in bed by 1:00 at the latest -- I've never been upset by it, but I've never really been grateful either! lol)
-Cat
Out-of-the-box suggestions welcome, but mostly here we do have
acceptance of the situation, at least on my part, and James is trying
really hard to keep biting his tongue.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
For us, it also makes a difference when we eat dinner (generally between 8 and midnight). I've noticed that my 5 yo is sleepier earlier if we have dinner earlier - which certainly makes a kind of biological sense, although "Dinner" is mostly a social marker -- we are all at the table eating and talking together, as opposed to the individual grazing that we generallydo the rest of the time. She often eats in the evening before and after "dinner" but these don't seem to influence sleep as much as the changing time of 'dinner' does.
Anyway, I'll throw it out there as a suggestion (and will start being grateful that we are all in sync to be in bed by 1:00 at the latest -- I've never been upset by it, but I've never really been grateful either! lol)
-Cat
Out-of-the-box suggestions welcome, but mostly here we do have
acceptance of the situation, at least on my part, and James is trying
really hard to keep biting his tongue.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]