Julie Solich

I began the year with a program for the first term, chore charts on the
wall, set bedtime and life was...organized! My boys were unhappy every
morning and Mia was kept busy with something while we did our work.

Ten months later, the chore chart disappeared a long time ago and bedtime is
when the boys are tired usually around 10pm after a movie or a good story or
playing with Dad on the couch or for Mia when she asks to be put to bed. The
kids spend their days doing just what they want to do and Mia is free to be
with me as much as she likes.

Yesterday I got angry about something and I yelled at one of the kids. I
shocked myself!! It sounded so horrible not to mention unnecessary. And
weird. I realized it sounded weird because it isn't something I do very
often and although I felt bad for yelling, it felt good to know that it was
the first time in a long time.

A typical day? Yesterday we were all up at about 8:30 and the kids watched
a couple of Magic School Bus videos while they had breakfast. The boys rode
their bikes for awhile then came inside and put Harry Potter and the Order
of the Phoenix on (CD). Jess played on the computer while Jacob and Mia drew
arrows on small pieces of paper and played treasure hunts.

After lunch the boys played with their lego and Mia got out the peg boards.
Then outside to play Lord of the Rings. They have been watching the movies
over the last few nights.

Later on we made ooblik. The kitchen cupboards turned blue and it was
everywhere but they loved playing with it. Mark came home from work and the
next hour was spent with him and the boys playing air guitar to extremely
loud music (with blue hands <g>).

My brother and sister came over at 8pm to watch The Two Towers. Mark went to
bed with Mia to tell crazy stories and the boys sat up to watch the movie
with us. They loved it!!! This morning they are outside pretending to be
Aragorn and Gollum. I'm not sure who Mia is, she has a scarf tied around her
waist with a cardboard dagger tucked into it.

Last Friday we had an Every Other Day party. The kids hadn't had birthday
parties this year so we threw a party for the sake of it. It was fancy
dress. We had dragons and unicorns, princesses and indians. Jess was a
knight, Jacob was darth maul (he looked awesome) and Mia was a woodland
fairy with a dagger (can you tell she has older brothers?)

I love bringing joy into my kids lives. And it's contagious because they
love to do the same for me.
Mary is right. Life is good.

Julie

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/7/03 10:47:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mjsolich@... writes:
> Ten months later, the chore chart disappeared a long time ago and bedtime
> is
> when the boys are tired usually around 10pm after a movie or a good story or
> playing with Dad on the couch or for Mia when she asks to be put to bed. The
> kids spend their days doing just what they want to do and Mia is free to be
> with me as much as she likes.
>

This sounds wonderful. Thank you for sharing. It does bring up another
question that I've been bouncing around in my head for a while, though, so I think
I'll go ahead and ask, although I have a sense that it has been dealt with
before here. It has to do with TV and bedtime restrictions. I have read many
of the links on www.SandraDodd.com and I am understanding how TV, video games,
etc. are "information dense" (love that perspective) and very much part of the
unschooly-being-in-the-world genius. My question -- do most of you have no
restrictions as far as age-appropriateness and/or time spent watching TV? And
do you have concerns about the corporate/advertising influence on your kids --
if so, how do you handle that? I think I can work toward trusting him,
knowing he will choose content that he finds compelling and therefore is not
"trash" (even Power Rangers -- that's a new one for us and my ex-teacher self is
silently struggling with that), but are there any pitfalls with that attitude
that I need to be aware of?

As far as bedtime goes, do most of you just let your kids sleep when they're
tired? (Gee, it sounds so sensible when I put it that way. <g>) It's a
beautiful night and I love the idea of Fisher being able to enjoy it with me (I'm a
night walker) . . . but I also get kind of an icky feeling when we get in the
habit of sleeping late in the morning. I hate to miss the beautiful early
morning hours, and I guess years of socialization has taught me to feel lazy
when I (or my son) sleep in.

In other news -- I'm reading John Holt's Instead of Education (I just
instinctively like him) and Fisher told me how he was unfairly punished today in
school -- I don't like that he was unhappy, but I might like where that
unhappiness could lead . . . <g>

Peace, and TIA,
Amy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Solich

<< My question -- do most of you have no restrictions as far as
age-appropriateness and/or time spent watching TV? <<



My kids had huge restrictions with the TV last year. They were not allowed
to watch during the week and only on the weekends after their chores were
done. Even then they were not allowed to watch 'just anything'. And
especially not anything on 'commercial television'.

Shortly after joining this group for the second time (the first time,I
lurked for a week and unsubbed in terror at the concepts being discussed
<g>), I lifted the restrictions on the amount my kids watched. They can
watch TV/videos whenever they want to.

Because they have been really sheltered we are still careful about what
they watch. Both the boys watched the special features discs of the Lord of
the Rings movies to get a feel for the content and then watched certain
scenes before sitting down to watch the whole movie and we watched it with
them. We have shown Mia some of it but we have waited till she is in bed
before it goes on as some of it has scared her.

We don't watch much TV as our reception sucks! They might watch cartoons on
a Saturday but mostly they prefer to put a DVD on. We have been trying to
buy more so they have a good selection. They aren't overly interested in
adult type movies (all that yucky kissing!! eew, gross Mum!!)

We probably are more restrictive than others here but I think it's easier to
adjust to lifted restriction if you do it gradually. Going from Thomas the
Tank Engine to The Terminator in one small step isn't being kind or careful!
<g>

I 'm glad we have lightened up. We rented a Simpsons DVD awhile ago and
Jess loved it. He went around doing the best Smithers impersonations for a
week afterwards. That wouldn't have happened a year ago.

Julie



>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[email protected]

arcarpenter@... writes:
> My question -- do most of you have no
> restrictions as far as age-appropriateness and/or time spent watching TV?

Nope, I don't restrict, but Alex, 9, does not like anything "sexy", so I'll
warn him if I think something's going to make him uncomfortable.

<<And
do you have concerns about the corporate/advertising influence on your kids
--
if so, how do you handle that? >>

We LOVE the mute button, use it ALOT. We tape stuff and pause during
commercials. If I could afford TIVO, I would get it immediately. We have fights
over music, I hate the stupid rapping Fred on a cereal commercial, Alex likes it,
so I got vetoed on that one the other day. We both hate all Barbie
commercials! And Bratz. We had a good convo the other day when Alex asked me, " Mom,
do all girls like shopping?" lol Oh boy!

~Aimee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<And
do you have concerns about the corporate/advertising influence on your
kids
--
if so, how do you handle that? >>



Jayn likes a wide range of cartoons on channels with commercials, most
recently Kim Possible (Disney), Scooby Doo (Boom and Cartoon Network),
Mary-Kate and Ashley in Action (Disney) and perennial favorite, Max and
Ruby (Nick Jr.) which I really do not like much and am constantly
subverting with my remarks about why I don't like Ruby's behavior. We
also love Toad Patrol (Disney) but have now seen both seasons so often
we almost know the dialogue. On commercial free cable - Discovery Kids
and TLC, Jayn likes Hi-5 (a variety show), Brum, (about an English
miniature car), and the filler material about Pez the Penguin, who seems
to be a homeschooler, but I don't know if that is intentional.

Much of the time we record onto our satellite receiver, similar to TiVo,
so we can zap through the commercials. I have to say we do that mostly
for my comfort.

In terms of influenced to buy, yes Jayn sometimes sees toys that she
might not otherwise notice, and asks for them. However, my experience is
that often the desire is as transitory as the commercial, and when she
sees the item in the store, she decides against it. Not always though.
;)

As for the other influence of corporate culture - I think we counteract
that over time with our open lifestyle. Jayn tends to believe things she
hears from living people much more readily. For example she never stated
that Barbie's were only for girls until she heard one mother say so, to
her not much more than toddler, son at Kay-Bee toys the other day. I
tell her that although they are mostly marketed to girls, anyone can
play with them, just like she has cars and legos. She visits all
sections of the toy store when we go, although the Barbie and Disney
aisles are her hands down favorites.

Robyn Coburn









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joylyn

Robyn Coburn wrote:

> <<And
> do you have concerns about the corporate/advertising influence on your
> kids
> --
> if so, how do you handle that? >>

People only have influence over my children when they allow it. I've
helped my children to see the reasons behind ads. Even my five year old
can state the reasons for media (influence, educate, entertain, I think,
they are asleep) and can articulate that the ads are definitely there to
influence your decision to buy something, to spend your money. Lexie is
very savvy about the various ways advertisers have to attempt to get her
to purchase a product. She's very much her own person. She has a few
friends who are in school, and she laughs at how much they are
influenced by their peers and magazines, etc. to dress, behave, etc. in
a certain way. She really makes her own decisions. THat doesn't mean
she doesn't watch ads nor does she ignore them, but she looks at them
critically, which is how I look at them.

My kids have done what I do, they record shows and skim past the
commercials. Or they like shows on commercial free tv.

She was very interested in the recent california election, and watched
those ads closely. She had nicknames for each one, some not very polite
(AS was the guy with the weird voice, Bustamonte was big butt (suggested
by my father, sadly), Davis was bald spot... She saw right through the
trash talk and wondered why they weren't discussing the real issues.

I think the bottom line is we have to trust our children. Your
questions come out of the idea that kids cannot be trusted to manage
their own lives, that if allowed, they would do nothing but watch tv,
eat junk food, play video games, stay up all night and want to sleep all
day, that it is necessary that some adult, some person in control,
control them, keep them safe from themselves, from their wild ways. I
really think nothing could be the farthest from the truth. So often
kids are so controlled, they are controlled every minute of the day,
even their bathroom habits are controlled (in school, they must get
permission to go to the bathroom), so there is no doubt that these
children, when given some free time or some control over their lives,
end up doing things in excess instead of in moderation.

Again, we have to trust the children. To me this does not mean that I
stop parenting. It just means that my job is more a facilitator, a
guide, a helper, not a controller.

Joylyn

catherine aceto

Oh, that is too bad. I haven't seen the show ('cause we don't have cable -- preferring to get DSL instead) -- but I *love* the max and ruby books. Ruby is always a rule bound kinda kid, but Max always "wins." We just bought one where Max wants to eat ice-cream for breakfast, Ruby says "no, eat your cereal" -- so Max drives in his pedal car to Grandma's where she say, "oh, just the person I wanted to see, I bought too much ice cream." So max eats some and takes some home to Ruby for breakfast.
perennial favorite, Max and
Ruby (Nick Jr.) which I really do not like much and am constantly
subverting with my remarks about why I don't like Ruby's behavior.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/03 2:43:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
joylyn@... writes:
> Your
> questions come out of the idea that kids cannot be trusted to manage
> their own lives, that if allowed, they would do nothing but watch tv,
> eat junk food, play video games, stay up all night and want to sleep all
> day, that it is necessary that some adult, some person in control,
> control them, keep them safe from themselves, from their wild ways.


It is true that I am working to get rid of that idea -- the way it was always
phrased for me was, "kids need structure, they need boundaries, they need to
know that there is an adult in charge and that the rules are firm." I was
taught that kids, though they would rebel against it, liked having adults provide
their structure. So I'm exploring what this freedom looks like, and want to
have some ideas about that ahead of time so I can envision it a bit. (And so
I don't freak out in the middle of it and start trying to restrict again. <g>)

Fisher and I have talked long ago about "what ads are for," and though he
still likes to watch them and say "we gotta get that", he understands.

And then there's a part of me that imagines the "corporate guys" in a meeting
room somewhere, writing up story lines for shows like the Power Rangers or
coming up with flashy-but-stupid toy ideas and congratulating themselves on how
well they're exploiting kids (yes, that's oversimplified but you get the
drift) -- and I just don't like to let them "get away with it." <g> I like to
fight corporatism at every turn -- but what I am seeing is that the better way to
fight it is to let my kids grow up knowing their own mind, and then they'll
never be a slave to advertising or anything else.

Thanks all,
Amy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/03 7:23:33 AM, arcarpenter@... writes:

<< Fisher and I have talked long ago about "what ads are for," and though he
still likes to watch them and say "we gotta get that", he understands.
>>

I think more parents shouuld say "Maybe we should; why are you thinking we
need it?" though instead of "NO WAY! That's STUPID!" Engaging a child in
analytical conversation is better learning than just telling them that all ads are
evil.

Not everything that's advertised is junk. It's fun to talk about how the
advertisement is appealing to they viewer, though. Car ads are fun for that.
Soda ads and jeans. Sometimes you can't even tell what an ad's going to be for
and it's fun to guess as a new ad unfolds.

Often my kids are doing something else during the ads. Whatever they're
working on during the show, or getting up to go to the bathroom or see what others
are doing or playing with the dog. "Mute" on a remote control is a good
friend.

Sandra

Robyn Coburn

<<Oh, that is too bad. I haven't seen the show ('cause we don't have
cable -- preferring to get DSL instead) -- but I *love* the max and ruby
books. Ruby is always a rule bound kinda kid, but Max always "wins."
We just bought one where Max wants to eat ice-cream for breakfast, Ruby
says "no, eat your cereal" -- so Max drives in his pedal car to
Grandma's where she say, "oh, just the person I wanted to see, I bought
too much ice cream." So max eats some and takes some home to Ruby for
breakfast. >>....<<Ruby in all her bossy glory>>



Yes it these are the Rosemary Wells based characters. Ruby is basically
the parent figure in the absolute absence of anyone else in the house.
Yes Max "wins" sometimes - but it is awful that there has to be a
competition at all - and Ruby learns nothing from Max winning - she is
repeatedly shown up but never changes her thinking. I am irritated by
Ruby because she, in common with so many ordinary parents, constantly
quotes "rules" unthinkingly as in the above example - you can't have ice
cream for breakfast - and forces Max to become manipulative and sneaky.
He leaves the house without telling her where he is going and she has to
run all over looking for him.

Ruby constantly rides absolutely roughshod over anything Max may be
engaged in with the attitude that only her concerns are important and
anything he is doing must give way, regardless of his stated desire to
keep doing his own activity. "I'm sorry Max, you can't play dumptrucks
just now. We need to have our beach party". When there is a problem she
always imposes her solution on him, without consultation. She treats him
like a toy, and often is hurtful to him, deliberately excluding him from
activities with her girlfriends. Now I believe that she should be free
to play with them without Max, but since there is no one else to
actually engage him or look after him, it just seems cruel. Grandma
never seems to actually take Max off for a while so Ruby can play - she
is just on his side it seems by her chance appearances.

It bugs me that Max is old enough to go wandering off around the
neighborhood, and run Ruby's errands to the store, but is too young to
use scissors and glue - so not true in this house. In one episode we
discover that Ruby and Louise are seven. Personally I think that is too
young to have the sole responsibility for another youngster. Do you
realize that there is no bedroom in the house for parents? They only
exist in one picture on the wall.

The Easter episode bugged me, because Max was virtually forced to become
a thief by Ruby's unreasonable competitive attitude.

Ruby has a horror of dirt, interrupting anything for baths, cleaning and
tidying. She has no respect for Max's space, and practices food
restrictions with a vengeance.

And probably most annoying of all, Ruby is a heinous little liar and
cheat. In almost every episode to do with Bunny Scouts, Ruby takes the
credit for some accidental action of Max's, even to the extent of
keeping her merit badge for knots which Max was entirely responsible
for. The badge is clearly visible on her sash in subsequent episodes,
and she couldn't tie a knot to save her life.

Maybe it is not such a horrible example of pseudo-enlightened parenting
in the books, but I mostly hate the stuff.

Robyn Coburn




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

catherine aceto

oh, that was fascinating to read. yes, put like that, I can see why you dislike it.

For us, I guess, we have always read them allegorically with Ruby being, I don't know, "society"? "them" the "rules" whatever ---- and Max being us -- the enterprising little irrepressible spirit. I'd never thought about Ruby (or Max for that matter) as an actual child (or bunny lol). They are, to me, about the futility of the rule-bound life.

-Cat
----- Original Message -----
From: Robyn Coburn
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 10:55 AM
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] enjoying my kids


<<Oh, that is too bad. I haven't seen the show ('cause we don't have
cable -- preferring to get DSL instead) -- but I *love* the max and ruby
books. Ruby is always a rule bound kinda kid, but Max always "wins."
We just bought one where Max wants to eat ice-cream for breakfast, Ruby
says "no, eat your cereal" -- so Max drives in his pedal car to
Grandma's where she say, "oh, just the person I wanted to see, I bought
too much ice cream." So max eats some and takes some home to Ruby for
breakfast. >>....<<Ruby in all her bossy glory>>



Yes it these are the Rosemary Wells based characters. Ruby is basically
the parent figure in the absolute absence of anyone else in the house.
Yes Max "wins" sometimes - but it is awful that there has to be a
competition at all - and Ruby learns nothing from Max winning - she is
repeatedly shown up but never changes her thinking. I am irritated by
Ruby because she, in common with so many ordinary parents, constantly
quotes "rules" unthinkingly as in the above example - you can't have ice
cream for breakfast - and forces Max to become manipulative and sneaky.
He leaves the house without telling her where he is going and she has to
run all over looking for him.

Ruby constantly rides absolutely roughshod over anything Max may be
engaged in with the attitude that only her concerns are important and
anything he is doing must give way, regardless of his stated desire to
keep doing his own activity. "I'm sorry Max, you can't play dumptrucks
just now. We need to have our beach party". When there is a problem she
always imposes her solution on him, without consultation. She treats him
like a toy, and often is hurtful to him, deliberately excluding him from
activities with her girlfriends. Now I believe that she should be free
to play with them without Max, but since there is no one else to
actually engage him or look after him, it just seems cruel. Grandma
never seems to actually take Max off for a while so Ruby can play - she
is just on his side it seems by her chance appearances.

It bugs me that Max is old enough to go wandering off around the
neighborhood, and run Ruby's errands to the store, but is too young to
use scissors and glue - so not true in this house. In one episode we
discover that Ruby and Louise are seven. Personally I think that is too
young to have the sole responsibility for another youngster. Do you
realize that there is no bedroom in the house for parents? They only
exist in one picture on the wall.

The Easter episode bugged me, because Max was virtually forced to become
a thief by Ruby's unreasonable competitive attitude.

Ruby has a horror of dirt, interrupting anything for baths, cleaning and
tidying. She has no respect for Max's space, and practices food
restrictions with a vengeance.

And probably most annoying of all, Ruby is a heinous little liar and
cheat. In almost every episode to do with Bunny Scouts, Ruby takes the
credit for some accidental action of Max's, even to the extent of
keeping her merit badge for knots which Max was entirely responsible
for. The badge is clearly visible on her sash in subsequent episodes,
and she couldn't tie a knot to save her life.

Maybe it is not such a horrible example of pseudo-enlightened parenting
in the books, but I mostly hate the stuff.

Robyn Coburn




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/03 11:27:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aceto3@... writes:

> I'd never thought about Ruby (or Max for that matter) as an actual child
> (or bunny lol). They are, to me, about the futility of the rule-bound life.
>
> -Cat
>

Yeah, thats what I was thinking.. they are FICTIONAL characters. I can't
think of any TV show that portrays unschooling or "enlightened parenting"...
Some shows have good moments, but most of them are "conventional" familes for
the most part. Dharma is the closest character I can think of to unschooling
values.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/03 8:58:37 AM, dezigna@... writes:

<< Do you
realize that there is no bedroom in the house for parents? They only
exist in one picture on the wall. >>

I didn't watch it much, but Rug Rats bugged me, and there didn't seem to be
adults around.

Muppet Babies only had the legs of "Nanny" once in a while, and then she'd
leave again.

But there seems to be a strong fantasy in kids to consider how they would
function without adults around, so it's understandable that they might be drawn
to shows that portray that, and also that they consider that even without
adults, one of the kids might take on the controlling role, and that some people,
even kids, will not be telling the truth all the time.

I think those extended kids-only things are scary fantasies for some little
kids but still compelling. And in some lives there ARE extended kids-only
sessions. I remember a few in my childhood, playing out a little away from the
house (their house, mostly, was scarier) with cousins, and knowing my best
choice was to just deal with the cousins myself, because if I went to the house I
would find my mom and her sister (their mom) drunk and unpredictable.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/03 9:27:25 AM, aceto3@... writes:

<< I'd never thought about Ruby (or Max for that matter) as an actual child
(or bunny lol). They are, to me, about the futility of the rule-bound life.
>>

Yesterday Holly was watching Arthur (speaking of bunnies, and whatever <g>)
and was quite pleased to get a joke they had about a mystery series called "The
Jolly Jollisters," clearly making fun of The Happy Hollisters for being lame
mysteries. <bwg>

Holly had already decided the books were lame herself.

Now I, at her age, devoured them. As each came, I read it THAT DAY or got
pretty far into it the first day.

But I was a kid desperate for input and escape. Holly is more discerning,
and has better choices.

But still it reinforced my theory that the reason for learning is to get
jokes, and so Holly merrily (happily, jollily) got a joke.

Sandra

Robyn Coburn

<<For us, I guess, we have always read them allegorically with Ruby
being, I don't know, "society"? "them" the "rules" whatever ---- and
Max being us -- the enterprising little irrepressible spirit. I'd never
thought about Ruby (or Max for that matter) as an actual child (or bunny
lol). They are, to me, about the futility of the rule-bound life.>>



Jayn definitely takes the characters at face value when watching the
cartoons. I like to point out some of Ruby's behavior and we often talk
about other ideas for solving the problem. Also sometimes we talk about
Max and his "mischief face". Jayn has no siblings so perhaps that
creates a different experience. We love Grandma, and we also love how
despite everything, Max is always really kind to Ruby, giving her stuff
he wins etc.

Robyn Coburn





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
>My kids have done what I do, they record shows and skim past the
>commercials. Or they like shows on commercial free tv.


Lars has become a master at channel-surfing during commercials. He knows
exactly how long to surf before returning to his program. He'll often
watch two shows at once, maybe a comedy and a sporting event. I'm always
surprised to actually hear a commercial in this house. Usually it means
he's doing something else.


>She was very interested in the recent california election, and watched
>those ads closely. She had nicknames for each one, some not very polite
>(AS was the guy with the weird voice, Bustamonte was big butt (suggested
>by my father, sadly), Davis was bald spot... She saw right through the
>trash talk and wondered why they weren't discussing the real issues.

This ties in with the discussion about celebrities and whether people vote
issues or names. Politicians rarely discuss the real issues on TV.
Tia

pam sorooshian

On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 07:04 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

> I think more parents shouuld say "Maybe we should; why are you
> thinking we need it?" though instead of "NO WAY! That's STUPID!"
> Engaging a child in analytical conversation is better learning than
> just telling them that all ads are evil.

Sorry Sandra - I just feel compelled to do this <BEG>:

When math situations that arise and a kid works out an answer on their
own that the parent KNOWS is wrong. Don't just say, "You got that
wrong," (no matter how nicely said). Instead, say - "Maybe. Why are you
thinking that is it?" Engaging a child in analytical conversation is
better learning than just telling them their answer is wrong.

-pam

Robyn Coburn

<<Yeah, thats what I was thinking.. they are FICTIONAL characters. I
can't
think of any TV show that portrays unschooling or "enlightened
parenting"...
Some shows have good moments, but most of them are "conventional"
familes for
the most part. Dharma is the closest character I can think of to
unschooling
values.>>



They are not fictional to Jayn, she talks about them as real people.
Just because characters are fictional doesn't mean they are without
social relevance. If we are going to look at the broader social
significance of Max and Ruby, the idea that life will be full of
rulebound people in authority over us, and that the way to deal with
them is a combination of miserable aquiescence and passive-aggressive
manipulations, is not the ideal message either. However the idea that
children are people with ideas, creativity and important activities is a
positive message.

Dharma was at least home schooled, and probably unschooled. In an
episode about Greg's old high school, Dharma talks about learning about
geography and weather by hot air ballooning. However the charm of that
idea is then undercut when it turns out that her spaced-out father
couldn't work the balloon properly and they always ended up in the same
place every year.

That network sitcom about the stay-at-home Dad which I can't remember
the name of, was partially about homeschoolers. I remember there was one
episode where the support group was meeting at the star's house - I only
saw a couple of eps. The uptight-school-at-homer's kid couldn't name the
capitals of states when pressed and hinted to, but the quiet relaxed
mom's kid was able to spell Tallahassee when everyone else had left the
room. That was still a skewed picture, and the show was axed after a
brief period, but I don't think it was because of the hs subplot. I
almost never watch family sitcoms, they irritate me too much - not
unlike Max and Ruby - I am always shouting at the screen, and annoying
dh with Unschooling based remarks. I have always preferred British
comedy anyway, of which there used to be tons in Australia.

Robyn Coburn







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



ADVERTISEMENT

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=251812.4024216.5238180.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705
081972:HM/A=1754452/R=0/SIG=11tadqrng/*http:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqs
o=60178324&partid=4024216> click here



<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=251812.4024216.5238180.1261774/D=egrou
pmail/S=:HM/A=1754452/rand=861877401>


"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/03 10:11:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
> I think more parents shouuld say "Maybe we should; why are you thinking we
> need it?" though instead of "NO WAY! That's STUPID!" Engaging a child in
> analytical conversation is better learning than just telling them that all
> ads are
> evil.

Good insight -- thanks for helping me see the next step.

Peace,
Amy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/03 12:47:36 PM, pamsoroosh@... writes:

<< Engaging a child in analytical conversation is
better learning than just telling them their answer is wrong.
>>

Yes, that's what I meant. <g>

Whether it's about math or advertisements or the reasons for the Zulu wars or
whether or not Johnny Depp holds any appeal to anyone.

Sandra

Olga

How does everyone handle a situation like this in terms of
discussing it with your children? Do you allow them to watch and
not say anything or discuss it? Do you not allow them to watch
certain shows that you find offensive? We are going through this
right now as Keiran just mastered the art of changing the channel to
cartoon network. I would not mind if he was making choices based on
what interested him, but it has sort of become ONLY cartoon
network. Me and dh were fretting about it a bit with him watching
all the time. I did realize today it was probably just a stage as
he has never had his own access to that channel. It is just the
excitement of it which I am trying to keep in mind. However, there
are certain shows that I would prefer he does not watch because of
the way the people treat eachother or characters are portrayed. My
dh is trying to watch with him at night so that they can discuss it
but we certainly do not want to watch it 24/7. He has had it off
the last few days so maybe he is getting over it. But I am curious
what others so when there are shows you would prefer they do not
watch?

Olga :)
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
> <<Oh, that is too bad. I haven't seen the show ('cause we don't
have
> cable -- preferring to get DSL instead) -- but I *love* the max
and ruby
> books. Ruby is always a rule bound kinda kid, but Max
always "wins."
> We just bought one where Max wants to eat ice-cream for breakfast,
Ruby
> says "no, eat your cereal" -- so Max drives in his pedal car to
> Grandma's where she say, "oh, just the person I wanted to see, I
bought
> too much ice cream." So max eats some and takes some home to Ruby
for
> breakfast. >>....<<Ruby in all her bossy glory>>
>
>
>
> Yes it these are the Rosemary Wells based characters. Ruby is
basically
> the parent figure in the absolute absence of anyone else in the
house.
> Yes Max "wins" sometimes - but it is awful that there has to be a
> competition at all - and Ruby learns nothing from Max winning -
she is
> repeatedly shown up but never changes her thinking. I am irritated
by
> Ruby because she, in common with so many ordinary parents,
constantly
> quotes "rules" unthinkingly as in the above example - you can't
have ice
> cream for breakfast - and forces Max to become manipulative and
sneaky.
> He leaves the house without telling her where he is going and she
has to
> run all over looking for him.
>
> Ruby constantly rides absolutely roughshod over anything Max may be
> engaged in with the attitude that only her concerns are important
and
> anything he is doing must give way, regardless of his stated
desire to
> keep doing his own activity. "I'm sorry Max, you can't play
dumptrucks
> just now. We need to have our beach party". When there is a
problem she
> always imposes her solution on him, without consultation. She
treats him
> like a toy, and often is hurtful to him, deliberately excluding
him from
> activities with her girlfriends. Now I believe that she should be
free
> to play with them without Max, but since there is no one else to
> actually engage him or look after him, it just seems cruel. Grandma
> never seems to actually take Max off for a while so Ruby can play -
she
> is just on his side it seems by her chance appearances.
>
> It bugs me that Max is old enough to go wandering off around the
> neighborhood, and run Ruby's errands to the store, but is too
young to
> use scissors and glue - so not true in this house. In one episode
we
> discover that Ruby and Louise are seven. Personally I think that
is too
> young to have the sole responsibility for another youngster. Do you
> realize that there is no bedroom in the house for parents? They
only
> exist in one picture on the wall.
>
> The Easter episode bugged me, because Max was virtually forced to
become
> a thief by Ruby's unreasonable competitive attitude.
>
> Ruby has a horror of dirt, interrupting anything for baths,
cleaning and
> tidying. She has no respect for Max's space, and practices food
> restrictions with a vengeance.
>
> And probably most annoying of all, Ruby is a heinous little liar
and
> cheat. In almost every episode to do with Bunny Scouts, Ruby takes
the
> credit for some accidental action of Max's, even to the extent of
> keeping her merit badge for knots which Max was entirely
responsible
> for. The badge is clearly visible on her sash in subsequent
episodes,
> and she couldn't tie a knot to save her life.
>
> Maybe it is not such a horrible example of pseudo-enlightened
parenting
> in the books, but I mostly hate the stuff.
>
> Robyn Coburn
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

Olga -- how old is he? What is on the channel - what programs is he
watching - that you don't approve of? What exactly do you not approve
of about them? How many hours in each day is he actually watching it?

Your comments are a bit vague - so that's why I'm asking for more hard
info before responding.

-pam

Olga

Sorry :)

He just turned 5. For the last few weeks he would go to the
playroom and have the TV running all day. He sometimes plays while
he watches or sits right in front of it. I am not a big fan of
cartoon network in general. I actually prefer some of the japanese
shows because at least there is a moral to the story. WE like Yu-go-
i-oh and Jackie Chan, but then again we all watch together because
it is at night and a calm time for us. However, I don't like
Totally Spies for how it has to show the heroines as girly shoppers
(the valley girl stereotype). My dh watched Ed, Ed, Eddy with him
and said the way in which some of the characters talked to eachother
showed alot of rudeness although I have not seen that one. The
fairly oddparents really gets under my skin and that one we do not
allow because I think he is too young. In general, I think I am
having difficulty seeing value in some of these shows. I am
struggling with how much freedom to give. IS he making an
intelligent choice or just staring like a dog foaming at the mouth
watching shows that corporate america has put out there marketed to
little boys (harsh but how I feel. At this point I feel the only
reason he is watching is because it is on cartoon network. I have
tried to discuss that just because it is on that channel does not
mean it is a good choice. I am struggling with balancing that with
giving hime the freedom to make his own choices. Now, I am getting
the run down on every toy out there, as if we don't have
enough..LOL...now I will have to explain the concept of Zen and the
Tao to him ;). I hope that clarfies a bit!

Olga :)

In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
> Olga -- how old is he? What is on the channel - what programs is
he
> watching - that you don't approve of? What exactly do you not
approve
> of about them? How many hours in each day is he actually watching
it?
>
> Your comments are a bit vague - so that's why I'm asking for more
hard
> info before responding.
>
> -pam

Nora or Devereaux Cannon

It depends, LOL. If you are watching with your child, you can
gauge what to do, if you think about it. If you are;t watching
with your child, be very hesitant to judge the impact of what
the child is thinking about the show.

Sometimes I pause (we have PVR, like TiVo) and talk about the
choice just made or the comment offered. Other times she is so
into the show, that I saw simply "let's talk about that later"
or ignore it totally. Other times, she is happily playing with
a doll while the offensive stuff is in the background and I
ignore it.

There is no need to address every infraction of good sense you
see, but if you do address it naturally and in the context of
the other parts of life you are living, you will be heard, IMHO.
One of the things that works in our favor around here is the
fact we always have a story going. It involves friends,
storybook characters, cartoons and so on and is very free form.
I tell a part; she tells a part; we negotiate disagreements over
the plot; we read as many "choose your own adventures" as
possible to refine how a story should be structured to reflect
what we think about the world (or what she thinks/what I think).
That story supports the analysis of TV shows as fodder for the
story that give great joy to our lives.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Olga" <mccluskieo@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 7:37 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] was: enjoying my kids re:shows
we don't agree with


| How does everyone handle a situation like this in terms of
| discussing it with your children? Do you allow them to watch
and
| not say anything or discuss it? Do you not allow them to
watch
| certain shows that you find offensive? We are going through
this
| right now as Keiran just mastered the art of changing the
channel to
| cartoon network. I would not mind if he was making choices
based on
| what interested him, but it has sort of become ONLY cartoon
| network. Me and dh were fretting about it a bit with him
watching
| all the time. I did realize today it was probably just a
stage as
| he has never had his own access to that channel. It is just
the
| excitement of it which I am trying to keep in mind. However,
there
| are certain shows that I would prefer he does not watch
because of
| the way the people treat eachother or characters are
portrayed. My
| dh is trying to watch with him at night so that they can
discuss it
| but we certainly do not want to watch it 24/7. He has had it
off
| the last few days so maybe he is getting over it. But I am
curious
| what others so when there are shows you would prefer they do
not
| watch?
|
| Olga :)
| --- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
| <dezigna@c...> wrote:
| > <<Oh, that is too bad. I haven't seen the show ('cause we
don't
| have
| > cable -- preferring to get DSL instead) -- but I *love* the
max
| and ruby
| > books. Ruby is always a rule bound kinda kid, but Max
| always "wins."
| > We just bought one where Max wants to eat ice-cream for
breakfast,
| Ruby
| > says "no, eat your cereal" -- so Max drives in his pedal
car to
| > Grandma's where she say, "oh, just the person I wanted to
see, I
| bought
| > too much ice cream." So max eats some and takes some home
to Ruby
| for
| > breakfast. >>....<<Ruby in all her bossy glory>>
| >
| >
| >
| > Yes it these are the Rosemary Wells based characters. Ruby
is
| basically
| > the parent figure in the absolute absence of anyone else in
the
| house.
| > Yes Max "wins" sometimes - but it is awful that there has to
be a
| > competition at all - and Ruby learns nothing from Max
winning -
| she is
| > repeatedly shown up but never changes her thinking. I am
irritated
| by
| > Ruby because she, in common with so many ordinary parents,
| constantly
| > quotes "rules" unthinkingly as in the above example - you
can't
| have ice
| > cream for breakfast - and forces Max to become manipulative
and
| sneaky.
| > He leaves the house without telling her where he is going
and she
| has to
| > run all over looking for him.
| >
| > Ruby constantly rides absolutely roughshod over anything Max
may be
| > engaged in with the attitude that only her concerns are
important
| and
| > anything he is doing must give way, regardless of his stated
| desire to
| > keep doing his own activity. "I'm sorry Max, you can't play
| dumptrucks
| > just now. We need to have our beach party". When there is a
| problem she
| > always imposes her solution on him, without consultation.
She
| treats him
| > like a toy, and often is hurtful to him, deliberately
excluding
| him from
| > activities with her girlfriends. Now I believe that she
should be
| free
| > to play with them without Max, but since there is no one
else to
| > actually engage him or look after him, it just seems cruel.
Grandma
| > never seems to actually take Max off for a while so Ruby can
play -
| she
| > is just on his side it seems by her chance appearances.
| >
| > It bugs me that Max is old enough to go wandering off around
the
| > neighborhood, and run Ruby's errands to the store, but is
too
| young to
| > use scissors and glue - so not true in this house. In one
episode
| we
| > discover that Ruby and Louise are seven. Personally I think
that
| is too
| > young to have the sole responsibility for another youngster.
Do you
| > realize that there is no bedroom in the house for parents?
They
| only
| > exist in one picture on the wall.
| >
| > The Easter episode bugged me, because Max was virtually
forced to
| become
| > a thief by Ruby's unreasonable competitive attitude.
| >
| > Ruby has a horror of dirt, interrupting anything for baths,
| cleaning and
| > tidying. She has no respect for Max's space, and practices
food
| > restrictions with a vengeance.
| >
| > And probably most annoying of all, Ruby is a heinous little
liar
| and
| > cheat. In almost every episode to do with Bunny Scouts, Ruby
takes
| the
| > credit for some accidental action of Max's, even to the
extent of
| > keeping her merit badge for knots which Max was entirely
| responsible
| > for. The badge is clearly visible on her sash in subsequent
| episodes,
| > and she couldn't tie a knot to save her life.
| >
| > Maybe it is not such a horrible example of
pseudo-enlightened
| parenting
| > in the books, but I mostly hate the stuff.
| >
| > Robyn Coburn
| >
| >
| >
| >
| > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
|
| ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor ---------------------~-->
| Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or
Lexmark
| Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the
US & Canada.
| http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
| http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/0xXolB/TM
| --------------------------------------------------------------
-------~->
|
| "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
group.
|
| To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
| [email protected]
|
| Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
|
|

[email protected]

Years ago I had issues with South Park and the Simpsons. I look at it this
way, I know my kids and they are fine people and simply dont act out shows or
repeat things that they dont hear me say.
My 4 yr. old watches a cartoon channel at night time. At 11 or 12 there is a
show that is a cartoon but about sex and disrespecting women. That show
irritates me but its just not something she is interested in.
My oldest watches what he wants, he is 12. He wont watch sex scenes they
gross him out.
There are shows that yes sometimes I cringe about but I know that I have
needed to step in years since we began Unschooling.

Children who are banned from certain shows or life events will eventually
seek them out just because. I recently witness a child from a religious family
knowingly banned from certain movies sneak it in at a friends. The Mom called
the other Mom, yelled at her and stated that they could not be friends because
of it. Its ridiculous how far a parent will go unknowing that they are only
imbedding the temptation in the child to violate the rules. Its a terrible cycle
and the child always gets the crappy end of the stick (literally)

Laura
<<<But I am curious
what others so when there are shows you would prefer they do not
watch?

Olga :)>>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nora or Devereaux Cannon

Oh - it does! Relax! They are great shows with classic themes
around the common culture. Watch them and help him find the
puns and references. You will have the "well trained mind" in
the "no tears" formula. They make no more sense than Hawthorne
or Shakespeare.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Olga" <mccluskieo@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 8:13 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: was: enjoying my kids
re:shows we don't agree with


| Sorry :)
|
| He just turned 5. For the last few weeks he would go to the
| playroom and have the TV running all day. He sometimes plays
while
| he watches or sits right in front of it. I am not a big fan
of
| cartoon network in general. I actually prefer some of the
japanese
| shows because at least there is a moral to the story. WE like
Yu-go-
| i-oh and Jackie Chan, but then again we all watch together
because
| it is at night and a calm time for us. However, I don't like
| Totally Spies for how it has to show the heroines as girly
shoppers
| (the valley girl stereotype). My dh watched Ed, Ed, Eddy with
him
| and said the way in which some of the characters talked to
eachother
| showed alot of rudeness although I have not seen that one.
The
| fairly oddparents really gets under my skin and that one we do
not
| allow because I think he is too young. In general, I think I
am
| having difficulty seeing value in some of these shows. I am
| struggling with how much freedom to give. IS he making an
| intelligent choice or just staring like a dog foaming at the
mouth
| watching shows that corporate america has put out there
marketed to
| little boys (harsh but how I feel. At this point I feel the
only
| reason he is watching is because it is on cartoon network. I
have
| tried to discuss that just because it is on that channel does
not
| mean it is a good choice. I am struggling with balancing that
with
| giving hime the freedom to make his own choices. Now, I am
getting
| the run down on every toy out there, as if we don't have
| enough..LOL...now I will have to explain the concept of Zen
and the
| Tao to him ;). I hope that clarfies a bit!
|
| Olga :)
|
| In [email protected], pam sorooshian
| <pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
| > Olga -- how old is he? What is on the channel - what
programs is
| he
| > watching - that you don't approve of? What exactly do you
not
| approve
| > of about them? How many hours in each day is he actually
watching
| it?
| >
| > Your comments are a bit vague - so that's why I'm asking for
more
| hard
| > info before responding.
| >
| > -pam
|
|
| ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor ---------------------~-->
| Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
| No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
| Try Netflix for FREE!
| http://us.click.yahoo.com/JYdFFC/XP.FAA/ySSFAA/0xXolB/TM
| --------------------------------------------------------------
-------~->
|
| "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
group.
|
| To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
| [email protected]
|
| Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
|

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/03 6:42:13 PM, mccluskieo@... writes:

<< But I am curious

what others so when there are shows you would prefer they do not

watch?

>>

I say something about the substance of the situation instead of about the
show itself. I say "It's too bad some people are mean." It's stating my
position that I don't think it's a good way to be, but kids already know good guys
from bad guys, and they don't want to be the bad guys.

All of storytelling has good guys and bad guys. Stories in religions,
folklore, novels, jokes, songs--humans need examples of good ways to be AND bad ways
to be. If we sanitize their worlds too much they won't have the
opportunities for deep thought and imagining what they might do in such a situation.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/03 7:16:38 PM, mccluskieo@... writes:

<< In general, I think I am

having difficulty seeing value in some of these shows. >>

It will be more beneficial to your unschooling and your family if you either
try harder to see the value, or accept that occasionally a half hour of his
life will pass in which you couldn't see the value.

<< IS he making an

intelligent choice or just staring like a dog foaming at the mouth

watching shows that corporate america has put out there marketed to

little boys>>

As long as you think of your child as a dog foaming at the mouth, you're not
thinking much more highly of him than your "corporate America" idea.

Instead of worrying about evil corporate America, why not just hang out
gently and sweetly with your son and see him as making intelligent choices?

<<.LOL...now I will have to explain the concept of Zen and the

Tao to him ;). >>

He'll probably learn more from the cartoons you're unable to watch .

Zen principles do suggest that the same ideas and ideals exist in the most
unexpected forms, in all places and all times. It's the spark of thought that
is the learning/growth/advancement, not the input that inspired the thought.

Sandra

pam sorooshian

On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 06:13 PM, Olga wrote:

> At this point I feel the only reason he is watching is because it is
> on cartoon network.


Why do you think he'd watch something unless the show itself interests
him? In other words, why do you think he cares about what network he
is watching even if the show doesn't interest him?

-pam

Kelli Traaseth

My kids like to watch Cartoon Network.

And sometimes they watch Ed, Ed and Eddy. Yes, there is disrespectful talk amongst them, but your son isn't going to learn how to treat others from a tv show. My son watches it sometimes, sometimes its pretty funny, I've watched it with him. I can't say that I really enjoy the show but his humor might be different than mine. There is humor there, and that's why he watches it, to laugh. He truly doesn't treat others the way Ed would (or Eddy) <g>.


As far as Fairly Oddparents, we actually had an awesome talk about US History coming from that show. We've also had some really good talks about parent/children relationships from watching that show, the parents in this show are pretty pathetic.


If we can get over our own judgemental thinking regarding certain shows and their values(in our eyes), we will then be able to see why our children choose to watch them.

Couldn't some of it also be that he picks up on what you don't want him watching? He's going to want to check those ones out.


Our family has been so much more peaceful and joyful since we've allowed our children freedom. They have amazed me in their choices and their wisdom. I'm sure yours will too. We just have to allow it. :)


Kelli~










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]