Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] PROBLEM WITH [email protected] (VE...
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/03 8:48:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
shyrley@... writes:
Teens talk about sex. I gather most of them are over the legal age of 16?
Shirly, I KNOW teens talk about sex....NOT THE PROBLEM....Probelm here, if
you read the e-mail is this 17 year old talks Freely about hows she's ALLOWED to
have sex w/a 20 yr old....and some of these kids are only 13.
Tracy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
shyrley@... writes:
Teens talk about sex. I gather most of them are over the legal age of 16?
Shirly, I KNOW teens talk about sex....NOT THE PROBLEM....Probelm here, if
you read the e-mail is this 17 year old talks Freely about hows she's ALLOWED to
have sex w/a 20 yr old....and some of these kids are only 13.
Tracy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/6/03 08:23:47 PM Central Daylight Time,
LuvsToHomeschool@... writes:
I mean to sound prudish, but, my DD, 17, came to me tonight w/concerns over a
couple of posts that she really thought were/are inappropriate; I have to
agree. I have cut/pasted them to this group ONLY for the purpose that I am
HOPING the parent of the teen who started this group will read it. I KNOW
the
teens like their privacy and all, BUT, I do think this needs to be moderated
a
bit. Anyway, following are the post(s):
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
I was wondering what the talk about the group being a parrot group meant, I
wondered if they all have parrots or if it is some slang I don't know. But that
wasn't your concern was it? <g> I don't have teens, yet, but in my experience
teens talk about sex. And while we all have varying degrees of comfort levels
on that subject, talking about sex is a good way for teens to explore and
discover. I don't know that I would want MY kids going around saying that they
are *free to have sex* in public forums, but I certainly do want them to feel
free to talk with their peers and Darin and I about their sexuality in a safe,
excepting environment. It is important to me that my kids know who they are and
that includes who they are sexually. I think that if they (any child) can
talk about sex and what they want in life, then they are more likely to have
meaningful encounters in all areas including their sexual encounters. I am happy
to see that your daughter feels comfortable enough to come to you with her own
concerns. I hope that you both can talk about how you and she feel about these
discussions, but moderating the group would be, IMHO, a violation of the very
trust we build our lives with them on.
Just my two cents.
~Nancy
He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered
whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.
Douglas Adams
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
LuvsToHomeschool@... writes:
I mean to sound prudish, but, my DD, 17, came to me tonight w/concerns over a
couple of posts that she really thought were/are inappropriate; I have to
agree. I have cut/pasted them to this group ONLY for the purpose that I am
HOPING the parent of the teen who started this group will read it. I KNOW
the
teens like their privacy and all, BUT, I do think this needs to be moderated
a
bit. Anyway, following are the post(s):
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
I was wondering what the talk about the group being a parrot group meant, I
wondered if they all have parrots or if it is some slang I don't know. But that
wasn't your concern was it? <g> I don't have teens, yet, but in my experience
teens talk about sex. And while we all have varying degrees of comfort levels
on that subject, talking about sex is a good way for teens to explore and
discover. I don't know that I would want MY kids going around saying that they
are *free to have sex* in public forums, but I certainly do want them to feel
free to talk with their peers and Darin and I about their sexuality in a safe,
excepting environment. It is important to me that my kids know who they are and
that includes who they are sexually. I think that if they (any child) can
talk about sex and what they want in life, then they are more likely to have
meaningful encounters in all areas including their sexual encounters. I am happy
to see that your daughter feels comfortable enough to come to you with her own
concerns. I hope that you both can talk about how you and she feel about these
discussions, but moderating the group would be, IMHO, a violation of the very
trust we build our lives with them on.
Just my two cents.
~Nancy
He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered
whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.
Douglas Adams
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/03 09:41:00 AM Central Daylight Time, Dnowens@...
writes:
but I certainly do want them to feel
free to talk with their peers and Darin and I about their sexuality in a
safe,
excepting environment.
#################
That should read ....safe, accepting environment...
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
but I certainly do want them to feel
free to talk with their peers and Darin and I about their sexuality in a
safe,
excepting environment.
#################
That should read ....safe, accepting environment...
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/03 10:18:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
dezigna@... writes:
I wonder if the parent was concerned that there might be pedophiles
masquerading as Unschooling teens and posting to the list?
Robyn, NO that is NOT my concern. My concern is that there are not only older
teens, BUT also 13 year olds (who knows, maybe younger) on this list. I
really believe this is inappropriate and that, PARENTS NEED TO BE MADE AWARE of
what their children are chatting about. I meant NO disrespect for ANYONE
involved. I just think that we as parents need to be aware of what is going on here.
BUT, if that's not going to be the case, my dd will NOT be a part of this!
Tracy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezigna@... writes:
I wonder if the parent was concerned that there might be pedophiles
masquerading as Unschooling teens and posting to the list?
Robyn, NO that is NOT my concern. My concern is that there are not only older
teens, BUT also 13 year olds (who knows, maybe younger) on this list. I
really believe this is inappropriate and that, PARENTS NEED TO BE MADE AWARE of
what their children are chatting about. I meant NO disrespect for ANYONE
involved. I just think that we as parents need to be aware of what is going on here.
BUT, if that's not going to be the case, my dd will NOT be a part of this!
Tracy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/03 7:34:18 AM, LuvsToHomeschool@... writes:
<< Probelm here, if you read the e-mail is this 17 year old talks Freely about hows she's ALLOWED to have sex w/a 20 yr old.... >>
She said it once and then talked about parrots.
If there's a 13 year old whose parents don't want to know that sex exists,
why are they on the internet? If a 13 year old DOES know that sex exists, and
then knows that some older kids are having sex without being sneaky or hiding
it from their parents, that doesn't seem earth-shattering to me, personally.
LOTS of teens are having sex. The vast majority of them are lying about it.
It has been proven over the centuries that children don't NEED "permission" from their parents to perform this act.
My kids are 11, 14 and 17.
When they're in groups of kids, sometimes they talk about sex. Most often,
it's about someone having claimed to have had sex who probably didn't. Light,
humorous, glancing reference. Once was about a girl Kirby had been with (his f irst, but he wasn't HER first, they were saying).
So Kirby's brother and sister figure he's had sex, from passing comments.
He's not bragging. He's not even stating outright. But when kids know each
other well, you don't need outright statements.
I think it's healthier to accept that kids will discuss such things than for
us to pretend we think they won't, or to ask our kids to pretend they're not.
Why encourage secrecy instead of openness?
If the girl had been telling nasty detailed stories, or saying "I don't want
to talk about parrots, I want to talk about SEX! Then I'd be grumpy.
Lots of 17 year olds are married or in committed relationships.
Many more are parents and some aren't entirely sure how they got that way.
This culture tried forbidding and secrecy. Didn't work out so well.
In my high school it seemed the more controlling a parent was (controlling of movement and of information) the more likely a child was to get pregnant.
The least controlling of movement and information had kids who knew how to use
birth control, and who were unlikely to get in a situation where they couldn't
bail out, call home, get help.
It's kids who have snuck around who can't call and say "Daddy, come get me,
this guy's being a jerk." And once they're in the sneaky place and have lied
and said they're spending the night with a girlfriend, the guy KNOWS the girl
is out until the next day and he's more in control.
I could go on. <g>
Sandra
<< Probelm here, if you read the e-mail is this 17 year old talks Freely about hows she's ALLOWED to have sex w/a 20 yr old.... >>
She said it once and then talked about parrots.
If there's a 13 year old whose parents don't want to know that sex exists,
why are they on the internet? If a 13 year old DOES know that sex exists, and
then knows that some older kids are having sex without being sneaky or hiding
it from their parents, that doesn't seem earth-shattering to me, personally.
LOTS of teens are having sex. The vast majority of them are lying about it.
It has been proven over the centuries that children don't NEED "permission" from their parents to perform this act.
My kids are 11, 14 and 17.
When they're in groups of kids, sometimes they talk about sex. Most often,
it's about someone having claimed to have had sex who probably didn't. Light,
humorous, glancing reference. Once was about a girl Kirby had been with (his f irst, but he wasn't HER first, they were saying).
So Kirby's brother and sister figure he's had sex, from passing comments.
He's not bragging. He's not even stating outright. But when kids know each
other well, you don't need outright statements.
I think it's healthier to accept that kids will discuss such things than for
us to pretend we think they won't, or to ask our kids to pretend they're not.
Why encourage secrecy instead of openness?
If the girl had been telling nasty detailed stories, or saying "I don't want
to talk about parrots, I want to talk about SEX! Then I'd be grumpy.
Lots of 17 year olds are married or in committed relationships.
Many more are parents and some aren't entirely sure how they got that way.
This culture tried forbidding and secrecy. Didn't work out so well.
In my high school it seemed the more controlling a parent was (controlling of movement and of information) the more likely a child was to get pregnant.
The least controlling of movement and information had kids who knew how to use
birth control, and who were unlikely to get in a situation where they couldn't
bail out, call home, get help.
It's kids who have snuck around who can't call and say "Daddy, come get me,
this guy's being a jerk." And once they're in the sneaky place and have lied
and said they're spending the night with a girlfriend, the guy KNOWS the girl
is out until the next day and he's more in control.
I could go on. <g>
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/03 7:34:18 AM, LuvsToHomeschool@... writes:
<< Probelm here, if
you read the e-mail is this 17 year old talks Freely about hows she's ALLOWED
to
have sex w/a 20 yr old.... >>
I just noticed why this might have struck me so sharply.
When I was 17 I was at college, and when I was 17 3/4, I was having sex with
a 21 year old, who was my boyfriend for the rest of our college years, who was
responsible and bright and honest and all those good things. There was nothing evil or dangerous in the whole long relationship. My parents knew him and knew we were having sex.
Sandra
<< Probelm here, if
you read the e-mail is this 17 year old talks Freely about hows she's ALLOWED
to
have sex w/a 20 yr old.... >>
I just noticed why this might have struck me so sharply.
When I was 17 I was at college, and when I was 17 3/4, I was having sex with
a 21 year old, who was my boyfriend for the rest of our college years, who was
responsible and bright and honest and all those good things. There was nothing evil or dangerous in the whole long relationship. My parents knew him and knew we were having sex.
Sandra
nellebelle
Maybe there is enough interest to start a group for younger kids? My dd wants to "talk" to other unschooled kids too. Hey, maybe we'll start one!
Mary Ellen
Mary Ellen
----- Original Message ----- My concern is that there are not only older
teens, BUT also 13 year olds (who knows, maybe younger) on this list. I
really believe this is inappropriate and that, PARENTS NEED TO BE MADE AWARE of
what their children are chatting about. I meant NO disrespect for ANYONE
involved. I just think that we as parents need to be aware of what is going on here.
BUT, if that's not going to be the case, my dd will NOT be a part of this!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/03 10:00:31 AM, LuvsToHomeschool@... writes:
<< I just think that we as parents need to be aware of what is going on here.
BUT, if that's not going to be the case, my dd will NOT be a part of this! >>
How will you determine if parents need to be aware?
"If that's not going to be the case..." what?
Do you want to censor the list?
I don't even know who started the list or advertised it.
Chatrooms are WAY more dangerous than lists.
I trust my kids. I'm not worried that they'll go and meet someone in a dark
alley. Their lives are full and rich and safe and the internet is not a
boogeyman. Lack of information and lack of love are boogeymen. Desperation is a
boogeyman, and I don't have desperate children.
(They're also not on that list, so I'm speaking generally about the internet,
not about one list.)
Sandra
<< I just think that we as parents need to be aware of what is going on here.
BUT, if that's not going to be the case, my dd will NOT be a part of this! >>
How will you determine if parents need to be aware?
"If that's not going to be the case..." what?
Do you want to censor the list?
I don't even know who started the list or advertised it.
Chatrooms are WAY more dangerous than lists.
I trust my kids. I'm not worried that they'll go and meet someone in a dark
alley. Their lives are full and rich and safe and the internet is not a
boogeyman. Lack of information and lack of love are boogeymen. Desperation is a
boogeyman, and I don't have desperate children.
(They're also not on that list, so I'm speaking generally about the internet,
not about one list.)
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/03 12:33:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
community, and part of her thesis for her Master's work was about how much
higher the rate of teenage pregnancy is in conservative areas where
abstinence-only kind of thinking is taught by families and churches -- i.e., the Bible
Belt. I don't have the numbers handy, but the difference is significant.
Peace,
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> This culture tried forbidding and secrecy. Didn't work out so well.There are statistics to back you up -- my mom is a nurse with a specialty in
> In my high school it seemed the more controlling a parent was (controlling
> of
> movement and of information) the more likely a child was to get pregnant.
community, and part of her thesis for her Master's work was about how much
higher the rate of teenage pregnancy is in conservative areas where
abstinence-only kind of thinking is taught by families and churches -- i.e., the Bible
Belt. I don't have the numbers handy, but the difference is significant.
Peace,
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/03 1:38:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
trust my kids. I'm not worried that they'll go and meet someone in a dark
alley. Their lives are full and rich and safe and the internet is not a
boogeyman. Lack of information and lack of love are boogeymen. Desperation
is a
boogeyman, and I don't have desperate children.
Sandra,
And I trust mine! In fact, I AM NOT on the list, my daughter is. I do not
read HER mail unless SHE comes to me. She did. And, LOL, we are NOT even
close to being a non-open, censorship, concervative family. In this case, SHE was
not comfortable w/this particular e-mail, SHE ASKED ME to post to this list
(where, I believe the e-mail list started) because SHE was NOT comfortable and
felt it was not appropriate. There are no boogymen in our house. We have
always discussed a lot of issues including sex at age appropriate levels, using
age appropriate terms, (except, LOL, the time my partner-n-love-n-life decided
to tell a 7 year old that you don't believe boys even if they tell you that
they'll get blue balls--I then made HER explain that one; tehe!).
At any rate, we've discussed it all in our family. I only posted as she was
concerned that this list may be getting out of hand!
Tracy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
trust my kids. I'm not worried that they'll go and meet someone in a dark
alley. Their lives are full and rich and safe and the internet is not a
boogeyman. Lack of information and lack of love are boogeymen. Desperation
is a
boogeyman, and I don't have desperate children.
Sandra,
And I trust mine! In fact, I AM NOT on the list, my daughter is. I do not
read HER mail unless SHE comes to me. She did. And, LOL, we are NOT even
close to being a non-open, censorship, concervative family. In this case, SHE was
not comfortable w/this particular e-mail, SHE ASKED ME to post to this list
(where, I believe the e-mail list started) because SHE was NOT comfortable and
felt it was not appropriate. There are no boogymen in our house. We have
always discussed a lot of issues including sex at age appropriate levels, using
age appropriate terms, (except, LOL, the time my partner-n-love-n-life decided
to tell a 7 year old that you don't believe boys even if they tell you that
they'll get blue balls--I then made HER explain that one; tehe!).
At any rate, we've discussed it all in our family. I only posted as she was
concerned that this list may be getting out of hand!
Tracy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
storyteller
Well, I read the discussions re this issue, and what bothers me is not
the topic of sex, but the issue of posting the teen's original message
here in the first place.
I have a 13 yo dd on the list. I trust her to handle the situation, or
to decide that she's uncomfortable with a discussion and either skip the
thread or leave the list.
Secondly, I don't need another parent telling me what I "NEED TO BE MADE
AWARE OF". Please don't parent for me. I trust my daughter. When she
needs to talk to me, she will. When she can handle it on her own, she
will. IF I need to be aware, she will make me aware.
Thirdly, the original post, from the teens list was posted here,
including the poster's name and email address. Unless this was done with
her permission, this is a violation of this teen's privacy. Regardless
of whether or not you approve. It isn't your place to approve. It's an
unmoderated list.
Frankly, I'm more concerned that a parent is snooping on the teen list.
If you and your child would be more comfortable with her being on a
moderated list, join one or start one. But don't snoop (even if your
daughter asked you to) on an unmoderated teen list and then "report" on
what you find. I knew my 13 yo daughter was on an unmoderated list. I
trust her to handle it, or leave if she doesn't like it or it makes her
uncomfortable.
You may have meant no disrespect, but you have disrespected the teen
whose post you forwarded, the teens on the list who *thought* they were
having private discussions, and those of us who trust our teens to
handle the discussions. Do the kids on the list know that you have
forwarded a post from their list to here? How do you think they would
feel if they knew that other kids' moms were reading posts and
forwarding to here ones they didn't like? Might put a little damper on
the conversations.
Funny, it's an ongoing discussion here (in real life) about moms who
trust their kids, and ones who feel a need to snoop and control. My
daughter prefers to be around moms who respect the kids. My daughter has
two friends whose mothers closely monitor their email. One simply rarely
uses email. The other one goes to great lengths to send emails w/out her
mother's knowledge. In neither case does the control work. Of course a
teen list is going to include discussions about sex. And movies and
books and food and friends and whatever else kids talk about. It's an
unmoderated list, and they can talk about what they want. imho, the
teens will be able to moderate it just fine on their own, much as we do
here, by talking about it.
susan
On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 11:56 AM, LuvsToHomeschool@...
wrote:
the topic of sex, but the issue of posting the teen's original message
here in the first place.
I have a 13 yo dd on the list. I trust her to handle the situation, or
to decide that she's uncomfortable with a discussion and either skip the
thread or leave the list.
Secondly, I don't need another parent telling me what I "NEED TO BE MADE
AWARE OF". Please don't parent for me. I trust my daughter. When she
needs to talk to me, she will. When she can handle it on her own, she
will. IF I need to be aware, she will make me aware.
Thirdly, the original post, from the teens list was posted here,
including the poster's name and email address. Unless this was done with
her permission, this is a violation of this teen's privacy. Regardless
of whether or not you approve. It isn't your place to approve. It's an
unmoderated list.
Frankly, I'm more concerned that a parent is snooping on the teen list.
If you and your child would be more comfortable with her being on a
moderated list, join one or start one. But don't snoop (even if your
daughter asked you to) on an unmoderated teen list and then "report" on
what you find. I knew my 13 yo daughter was on an unmoderated list. I
trust her to handle it, or leave if she doesn't like it or it makes her
uncomfortable.
You may have meant no disrespect, but you have disrespected the teen
whose post you forwarded, the teens on the list who *thought* they were
having private discussions, and those of us who trust our teens to
handle the discussions. Do the kids on the list know that you have
forwarded a post from their list to here? How do you think they would
feel if they knew that other kids' moms were reading posts and
forwarding to here ones they didn't like? Might put a little damper on
the conversations.
Funny, it's an ongoing discussion here (in real life) about moms who
trust their kids, and ones who feel a need to snoop and control. My
daughter prefers to be around moms who respect the kids. My daughter has
two friends whose mothers closely monitor their email. One simply rarely
uses email. The other one goes to great lengths to send emails w/out her
mother's knowledge. In neither case does the control work. Of course a
teen list is going to include discussions about sex. And movies and
books and food and friends and whatever else kids talk about. It's an
unmoderated list, and they can talk about what they want. imho, the
teens will be able to moderate it just fine on their own, much as we do
here, by talking about it.
susan
On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 11:56 AM, LuvsToHomeschool@...
wrote:
>
> My concern is that there are not only older
> teens, BUT also 13 year olds (who knows, maybe younger) on this list. I
> really believe this is inappropriate and that, PARENTS NEED TO BE MADE
> AWARE of
> what their children are chatting about. I meant NO disrespect for ANYONE
> involved. I just think that we as parents need to be aware of what is
> going on here.
> BUT, if that's not going to be the case, my dd will NOT be a part of
> this!
>
> Tracy
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], storyteller
<seanachai048@e...> wrote:
the Internet.
and those of us who trust our teens to
myself and my kids that if they don't want someone to know, don't
put it in writing (online, on paper or in private journals). The
Internet is public. Anything can be forwarded or read or snooped.
Two cents.
Julie B
<seanachai048@e...> wrote:
> You may have meant no disrespect, but you have disrespectedthe teen
> whose post you forwarded, the teens on the list who *thought*they were
> having private discussions,Quick point: There is no such thing as a private conversation on
the Internet.
and those of us who trust our teens to
> handle the discussions. Do the kids on the list know that youhave
> forwarded a post from their list to here? How do you think theywould
> feel if they knew that other kids' moms were reading posts andThey may not like it, but it's a fact of the Internet. I always tell
> forwarding to here ones they didn't like?
myself and my kids that if they don't want someone to know, don't
put it in writing (online, on paper or in private journals). The
Internet is public. Anything can be forwarded or read or snooped.
Two cents.
Julie B
Kris
I don't see the problem. Lanora is 13 and tells me about most of the email
she reads, because she wants to, because she is open with me. I wouldn't
see moderating the lists she is on as an answer to anything, if she doesn't
have a moral compass of her own right now then there is something basically
wrong.
If she were bothered by the kind of posts she saw she would probably just
quit. More likely she would just roll her eyes and say, "No way would I be
doing that" then go on. I don't understand the need to change or control
what everyone else is doing based on your own comfort level, find out what a
list is about before subscribing, if it isn't your liking unsubscribe.
Kris
she reads, because she wants to, because she is open with me. I wouldn't
see moderating the lists she is on as an answer to anything, if she doesn't
have a moral compass of her own right now then there is something basically
wrong.
If she were bothered by the kind of posts she saw she would probably just
quit. More likely she would just roll her eyes and say, "No way would I be
doing that" then go on. I don't understand the need to change or control
what everyone else is doing based on your own comfort level, find out what a
list is about before subscribing, if it isn't your liking unsubscribe.
Kris
[email protected]
The person who made the first complain exchanged instant messages with me
about this. I didn't save them. But part of her concern stems from the daughter
of someone at her church having flown to another state to meet a guy she met
on the internet who turned out to be older than and not look like he had
claimed. The parents had exchanged e-mail with what they thought were his parents.
Here's why I don't think the situation applies to other situations:
That stuff has gone on in other ways other places, for hundreds of years.
It's not an internet problem. Anyone who's done much reading about the
Renaissance knows there were marriages arranged using miniature paintings of the
people and recommendations of friends. In the 19th century and early 20th, letter
writing was a big deal and there were courtships on paper, following intros by
friends.
Furthermore, an e-mail list isn't as likely a meeting place as chatrooms, and
chatrooms abound where more people are lying than telling the truth.
AND... the way to woo someone to another state is not to start talking about
how you're having sex with your boyfriend and your parents know. How
alluring is THAT!? She's already partnered up.
The way luring someone works is you find someone needy, lonely, unattended
to, and you tell her she's the only one who really understands you. If she's
frustrated with her family you spin fantasy yarns about how she shouldn't be
restricted and ignored like that, and it's too bad her parents don't love her.
It takes an initial neediness to be victimized by such things, and it's not
sex talk that lures young girls out of their homes. It's "oh I understand."
Does anyone want to propose being alarmed if kids teens discuss home
situations and restrictions and levels of happiness? (I sure don't.)
The sky is not falling.
Needy kids ARE on the internet. Always will be.
If we make sure our kids aren't needy, it won't matter what "enticements" are
put before them, they'll know what they don't need.
So I still don't understand the original concern, but I propose
communications with our own children and lightening up about imagined panics.
Sandra
about this. I didn't save them. But part of her concern stems from the daughter
of someone at her church having flown to another state to meet a guy she met
on the internet who turned out to be older than and not look like he had
claimed. The parents had exchanged e-mail with what they thought were his parents.
Here's why I don't think the situation applies to other situations:
That stuff has gone on in other ways other places, for hundreds of years.
It's not an internet problem. Anyone who's done much reading about the
Renaissance knows there were marriages arranged using miniature paintings of the
people and recommendations of friends. In the 19th century and early 20th, letter
writing was a big deal and there were courtships on paper, following intros by
friends.
Furthermore, an e-mail list isn't as likely a meeting place as chatrooms, and
chatrooms abound where more people are lying than telling the truth.
AND... the way to woo someone to another state is not to start talking about
how you're having sex with your boyfriend and your parents know. How
alluring is THAT!? She's already partnered up.
The way luring someone works is you find someone needy, lonely, unattended
to, and you tell her she's the only one who really understands you. If she's
frustrated with her family you spin fantasy yarns about how she shouldn't be
restricted and ignored like that, and it's too bad her parents don't love her.
It takes an initial neediness to be victimized by such things, and it's not
sex talk that lures young girls out of their homes. It's "oh I understand."
Does anyone want to propose being alarmed if kids teens discuss home
situations and restrictions and levels of happiness? (I sure don't.)
The sky is not falling.
Needy kids ARE on the internet. Always will be.
If we make sure our kids aren't needy, it won't matter what "enticements" are
put before them, they'll know what they don't need.
So I still don't understand the original concern, but I propose
communications with our own children and lightening up about imagined panics.
Sandra
Tia Leschke
>That may be true, and the kids should realize it. But that doesn't make it
>They may not like it, but it's a fact of the Internet. I always tell
>myself and my kids that if they don't want someone to know, don't
>put it in writing (online, on paper or in private journals). The
>Internet is public. Anything can be forwarded or read or snooped.
right.
Tia
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/03 3:16:06 PM, leschke@... writes:
<< >They may not like it, but it's a fact of the Internet. I always tell
who own or moderate getting to say "Don't do that again."
Maybe the girl didn't mind telling a handful of teens something, but having
it sent to 1200 moms and dads? NOT fair.
Sandra
<< >They may not like it, but it's a fact of the Internet. I always tell
>myself and my kids that if they don't want someone to know, don'tBut not just anything can be put on this list (nor on ANY list) without those
>put it in writing (online, on paper or in private journals). The
>Internet is public. Anything can be forwarded or read or snooped.
>>
who own or moderate getting to say "Don't do that again."
Maybe the girl didn't mind telling a handful of teens something, but having
it sent to 1200 moms and dads? NOT fair.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/03 6:00:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Maybe the girl didn't mind telling a handful of teens something, but having
it sent to 1200 moms and dads? NOT fair.
OK...look folks, if I made a mistake in assuming that the parents of the kid
(and, YES, a 13 and 15 yr old are still kids...NOT adults, and NOT quite
children) was ON THIS LIST, then I MADE THE MISTAKE! I forwarded ONLY as a warning
that there was a POTENTIAL situation on the UNSCHOOLINGTEENS (see the
connection here) that possibly should be looked into. I DID NOT forward this to HARM
the kids. I KNOW they need their privacy, but at what expense here?
I DID NOT, WILL NOT, send this to the other numerous lists I am on. I MAY
HAVE ASSUMED WRONG that the parent IS on THIS LIST. However, the reason I
ASSUMED the parent is/was/could be, is that a couple of weeks ago I DID receive a
post that a kid wanted to start a list for UNSCHOOLING TEENS (anyone see the
connection yet?). THIS IS the ONLY Unschooling list I am on, so this would make
sense.
I apologize for starting trouble....never meant for that....and, where I DID
make the mistake is that I did accidentally include names/e-mail addresses. I
DID mean to take this out, however, before I could, I hit the send button and
then remember what I intended to do.
On the other hand, I will NOT apologize for my feelings that an adult should
at least take a look at questionable posts. YES, I DO trust MY KID (17), BUT,
I DO NOT TRUST STRANGERS on the Internet. For all you know, I COULD (to
borrow from a conversation I had w/another parent on the list today) be an 80 yr.
old man. Same reasoning goes for the kids list...this COULD BE AN ADULT
"acting" as a kid.
I think all of you have valid thoughts, reasons, whatever for not wanting to
limit your kids. Frankly, I'VE NEVER had to moderate my daughter on the
Internet (because, as in this situation, SHE CAME TO ME.) But, I'm not going to be
blinded by the fact that somebody calls this an "UNSCHOOLINGTEENS" list, and
ASSUME that inappropriate people might join the list.
So, I DO apologize for the mistakes I made. All I wanted to do was to make
the parent of the list aware to at least ASK their kids about it.
Tracy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
Maybe the girl didn't mind telling a handful of teens something, but having
it sent to 1200 moms and dads? NOT fair.
OK...look folks, if I made a mistake in assuming that the parents of the kid
(and, YES, a 13 and 15 yr old are still kids...NOT adults, and NOT quite
children) was ON THIS LIST, then I MADE THE MISTAKE! I forwarded ONLY as a warning
that there was a POTENTIAL situation on the UNSCHOOLINGTEENS (see the
connection here) that possibly should be looked into. I DID NOT forward this to HARM
the kids. I KNOW they need their privacy, but at what expense here?
I DID NOT, WILL NOT, send this to the other numerous lists I am on. I MAY
HAVE ASSUMED WRONG that the parent IS on THIS LIST. However, the reason I
ASSUMED the parent is/was/could be, is that a couple of weeks ago I DID receive a
post that a kid wanted to start a list for UNSCHOOLING TEENS (anyone see the
connection yet?). THIS IS the ONLY Unschooling list I am on, so this would make
sense.
I apologize for starting trouble....never meant for that....and, where I DID
make the mistake is that I did accidentally include names/e-mail addresses. I
DID mean to take this out, however, before I could, I hit the send button and
then remember what I intended to do.
On the other hand, I will NOT apologize for my feelings that an adult should
at least take a look at questionable posts. YES, I DO trust MY KID (17), BUT,
I DO NOT TRUST STRANGERS on the Internet. For all you know, I COULD (to
borrow from a conversation I had w/another parent on the list today) be an 80 yr.
old man. Same reasoning goes for the kids list...this COULD BE AN ADULT
"acting" as a kid.
I think all of you have valid thoughts, reasons, whatever for not wanting to
limit your kids. Frankly, I'VE NEVER had to moderate my daughter on the
Internet (because, as in this situation, SHE CAME TO ME.) But, I'm not going to be
blinded by the fact that somebody calls this an "UNSCHOOLINGTEENS" list, and
ASSUME that inappropriate people might join the list.
So, I DO apologize for the mistakes I made. All I wanted to do was to make
the parent of the list aware to at least ASK their kids about it.
Tracy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/03 4:59:30 PM, LuvsToHomeschool@... writes:
<< OK...look folks, if I made a mistake in assuming that the parents of the
kid
(and, YES, a 13 and 15 yr old are still kids...NOT adults, and NOT quite
children) >>
Was she or was she not 17? I thought she was 17.
And please stop yelling at us about this.
<<I forwarded ONLY as a warning
that there was a POTENTIAL situation on the UNSCHOOLINGTEENS (see the
connection here) that possibly should be looked into. >>
Yes. We saw it all along. Be calm if you can be.
<<I apologize for starting trouble....never meant for that....and, where I
DID
make the mistake is that I did accidentally include names/e-mail addresses.
I
DID mean to take this out, however, before I could, I hit the send button and
then remember what I intended to do.>>
If you had taken it out, how would someone here have known whether it was
their child or not? It doesn't make sense to have sent it anonymously in case
the parents were here.
<<On the other hand, I will NOT apologize for my feelings that an adult
should
at least take a look at questionable posts. >>
You were an adult and you took a look, and some people think you overreacted.
<< Same reasoning goes for the kids list...this COULD BE AN ADULT
"acting" as a kid. >>
Right. And still it's just words on a screen, and they didn't seem harmful.
If I were an 80 year old man and still giving good unschooling advice, what
would it matter? I'm not sneaking into anyone's house at night and slashing up
workbooks.
Reading online isn't personal danger. Misjudgement about where to go when
one leaves the house isn't a chatroom, either.
Sandra
<< OK...look folks, if I made a mistake in assuming that the parents of the
kid
(and, YES, a 13 and 15 yr old are still kids...NOT adults, and NOT quite
children) >>
Was she or was she not 17? I thought she was 17.
And please stop yelling at us about this.
<<I forwarded ONLY as a warning
that there was a POTENTIAL situation on the UNSCHOOLINGTEENS (see the
connection here) that possibly should be looked into. >>
Yes. We saw it all along. Be calm if you can be.
<<I apologize for starting trouble....never meant for that....and, where I
DID
make the mistake is that I did accidentally include names/e-mail addresses.
I
DID mean to take this out, however, before I could, I hit the send button and
then remember what I intended to do.>>
If you had taken it out, how would someone here have known whether it was
their child or not? It doesn't make sense to have sent it anonymously in case
the parents were here.
<<On the other hand, I will NOT apologize for my feelings that an adult
should
at least take a look at questionable posts. >>
You were an adult and you took a look, and some people think you overreacted.
<< Same reasoning goes for the kids list...this COULD BE AN ADULT
"acting" as a kid. >>
Right. And still it's just words on a screen, and they didn't seem harmful.
If I were an 80 year old man and still giving good unschooling advice, what
would it matter? I'm not sneaking into anyone's house at night and slashing up
workbooks.
Reading online isn't personal danger. Misjudgement about where to go when
one leaves the house isn't a chatroom, either.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/03 12:38:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Landon is almost 17, although I can't imagine him being engaged,but, I know
it's very likely he could be having sex. Actually, I know he's not, because
he has often lamented that he is "not getting any" and , well, he's a 17 yo
boy.. LOL. I fully expect that when he does start having sex, I will know
about it.. Not all the details, but I will know, just like my Mom knew when I had
sex
Teresa
SandraDodd@... writes:
> When I was 17 I was at college, and when I was 17 3/4, I was having sexWhen I was 17, I was engaged, and having sex. My mom knew, my dad didn''t.
> with
> a 21 year old, who was my boyfriend for the rest of our college years, who
> was
> responsible and bright and honest and all those good things. There was
> nothing evil or dangerous in the whole long relationship. My parents knew
> him and
> knew we were having sex.
>
> Sandra
>
Landon is almost 17, although I can't imagine him being engaged,but, I know
it's very likely he could be having sex. Actually, I know he's not, because
he has often lamented that he is "not getting any" and , well, he's a 17 yo
boy.. LOL. I fully expect that when he does start having sex, I will know
about it.. Not all the details, but I will know, just like my Mom knew when I had
sex
Teresa
[email protected]
I dont have any on that list but when I first saw the post I was surprised it
was handled that way. Maybe you could have posted: "Does anyone know who
started the Teen group/list? If so could they contact me? "
I see below that you SOUND to have an understanding of what went wrong so I
wont go on about it.
Laura
-
<<I DID NOT, WILL NOT, send this to the other numerous lists I am on. I MAY
HAVE ASSUMED WRONG that the parent IS on THIS LIST. However, the reason I
ASSUMED the parent is/was/could be, is that a couple of weeks ago I DID
receive a
post that a kid wanted to start a list for UNSCHOOLING TEENS (anyone see the
connection yet?). THIS IS the ONLY Unschooling list I am on, so this would
make
sense.>>>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
was handled that way. Maybe you could have posted: "Does anyone know who
started the Teen group/list? If so could they contact me? "
I see below that you SOUND to have an understanding of what went wrong so I
wont go on about it.
Laura
-
<<I DID NOT, WILL NOT, send this to the other numerous lists I am on. I MAY
HAVE ASSUMED WRONG that the parent IS on THIS LIST. However, the reason I
ASSUMED the parent is/was/could be, is that a couple of weeks ago I DID
receive a
post that a kid wanted to start a list for UNSCHOOLING TEENS (anyone see the
connection yet?). THIS IS the ONLY Unschooling list I am on, so this would
make
sense.>>>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joylyn
Personally, if I had a teen, I would either trust them to delete or deal
with posts like this without my involvement or if I felt they were too
young to do so I would monitor their computer time. We cannot censure
other children, simply because it makes us uncomfortable.
Joylyn
with posts like this without my involvement or if I felt they were too
young to do so I would monitor their computer time. We cannot censure
other children, simply because it makes us uncomfortable.
Joylyn
Heidi
Amy, could you possibly find them, please, or even point in the right
direction.
thanks
HeidiC
direction.
thanks
HeidiC
> There are statistics to back you up -- my mom is a nurse with aspecialty in
> community, and part of her thesis for her Master's work was abouthow much
> higher the rate of teenage pregnancy is in conservative areas wherechurches -- i.e., the Bible
> abstinence-only kind of thinking is taught by families and
> Belt. I don't have the numbers handy, but the difference issignificant.
>
>
> Peace,
> Amy
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 05:45 PM, joylyn wrote:
parents knew she was having sex with a 20 yo, right?
First - that is not at all a big age difference - seems about right to
me. (Unschoolers beware - if you think this age difference is a
problem, be forewarned that I have observed that unschooled kids do NOT
appear to be attracted only to people born within a year of
themselves. Big surprise! <G>)
Second - 17 year olds have sex. Its not uncommon. Parents know about
it. Its not the worst thing in the world.
Third - maybe its true and maybe its not - its an email list, for
goodness sakes. (Anybody remember the episode of Cheers where the
customer pretends to be a spy and Diane goes overboard in unmasking
him. Sam says something like, "What! You're shocked and upset that a
guy comes into a bar and puts us all on - pretends to be something he's
not?") The kid could be just bragging a little - or not. So what?
Fourth - where was there any danger? Nobody was soliciting somebody to
meet them. Nobody was talking suggestively to the teens there.
This seems so overblown. I'm thinking that a teenager who freaked out
over this comment by some other teen is a very very scared kid and I'd
worry more about her than about the other kids on the list.
-pam
> Personally, if I had a teen, I would either trust them to delete orWait - all that the post said was that some 17 yo claimed that her
> deal
> with posts like this without my involvement or if I felt they were too
> young to do so I would monitor their computer time.
parents knew she was having sex with a 20 yo, right?
First - that is not at all a big age difference - seems about right to
me. (Unschoolers beware - if you think this age difference is a
problem, be forewarned that I have observed that unschooled kids do NOT
appear to be attracted only to people born within a year of
themselves. Big surprise! <G>)
Second - 17 year olds have sex. Its not uncommon. Parents know about
it. Its not the worst thing in the world.
Third - maybe its true and maybe its not - its an email list, for
goodness sakes. (Anybody remember the episode of Cheers where the
customer pretends to be a spy and Diane goes overboard in unmasking
him. Sam says something like, "What! You're shocked and upset that a
guy comes into a bar and puts us all on - pretends to be something he's
not?") The kid could be just bragging a little - or not. So what?
Fourth - where was there any danger? Nobody was soliciting somebody to
meet them. Nobody was talking suggestively to the teens there.
This seems so overblown. I'm thinking that a teenager who freaked out
over this comment by some other teen is a very very scared kid and I'd
worry more about her than about the other kids on the list.
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/03 8:02:49 PM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
<< This seems so overblown. I'm thinking that a teenager who freaked out
over this comment by some other teen is a very very scared kid and I'd
worry more about her than about the other kids on the list.
Maybe a 12 year old, not being a teen, shouldn't have been on a teen list in
the first place.
Holly was invited to the local teen homeschooler group, just for next week
maybe, because it's something special at someone's house, and the mom invited
her. But I had not pressed for them to let her go and I wouldn't have. She
won't be going all the time. She turns twelve next month, and although she's a
mature kid, they asked for teens and she's not one.
Marty goes. Fourteen is definitely teen.
Sandra
<< This seems so overblown. I'm thinking that a teenager who freaked out
over this comment by some other teen is a very very scared kid and I'd
worry more about her than about the other kids on the list.
>>I think the child was 12.
Maybe a 12 year old, not being a teen, shouldn't have been on a teen list in
the first place.
Holly was invited to the local teen homeschooler group, just for next week
maybe, because it's something special at someone's house, and the mom invited
her. But I had not pressed for them to let her go and I wouldn't have. She
won't be going all the time. She turns twelve next month, and although she's a
mature kid, they asked for teens and she's not one.
Marty goes. Fourteen is definitely teen.
Sandra
pam sorooshian
On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 07:45 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
"I mean to sound prudish, but, my DD, 17, came to me tonight w/concerns
over a
couple of posts that she really thought were/are inappropriate;"
The posts didn't actually say how old the kid was who claimed to be
having sex with a 20 year old - I assumed an older teen, but it doesn't
really matter - its just talk on a list, nothing more. Not even obvious
the kid isn't joking. Lots of "hehehe" and "LOLs" in there.
-pam
> << This seems so overblown. I'm thinking that a teenager who freakedHer daughter who got uptight about this is 17. Here is what was said:
> out
> over this comment by some other teen is a very very scared kid and I'd
> worry more about her than about the other kids on the list.
>>>
>
> I think the child was 12.
"I mean to sound prudish, but, my DD, 17, came to me tonight w/concerns
over a
couple of posts that she really thought were/are inappropriate;"
The posts didn't actually say how old the kid was who claimed to be
having sex with a 20 year old - I assumed an older teen, but it doesn't
really matter - its just talk on a list, nothing more. Not even obvious
the kid isn't joking. Lots of "hehehe" and "LOLs" in there.
-pam
joylyn
Pam, what you said was my point. I think moms who worry about teens
talking about sex don't get that teens will talk about sex regardless.
In my experience the parents that try to control their children end up
having the most out of control kids. When I was a teen, it was the
ultra controled kids that were having the most sex, drinking the most,
etc. The kids like me, who could have a glass of wine with my parents
and whose parents spoke openly with me about sex, those things were not
forbidden and therefore not so desirable.
Joylyn
talking about sex don't get that teens will talk about sex regardless.
In my experience the parents that try to control their children end up
having the most out of control kids. When I was a teen, it was the
ultra controled kids that were having the most sex, drinking the most,
etc. The kids like me, who could have a glass of wine with my parents
and whose parents spoke openly with me about sex, those things were not
forbidden and therefore not so desirable.
Joylyn