Tia Graham

<
I guess you are going to have to clarify what the difference is between
playing like a 6 or 7 year old and playing like a 3 or 4 year old is. >>

<<I wish you'd describe what you mean - because just saying "playing like

3 and 4 year olds" versus like "6 and 7 year olds" does not mean a darn
thing to me. Honestly.

And - I was also hoping you'd describe what you've heard 6 and 7 yo
unschoolers, in particular, play like?
>>>

On giving it more thought, I think part of my origional angst orginated
from unfair comparisons. When I look at my children, they are "less
sophisticated" than thier peer counterparts around us. Now, the painful
irony of it is, this "sophistication" and rapid maturing is one of the
main things I was hoping to avoid with non-traditional schooling! It
isnt' the first time I've gotten my way about something and wondered if
it was really what I want...

At 2 my son got his first real hammer. No plastic tools here, we went
right for the real stuff. This has been complicated when dealing with
other kids from families who lock away real tools. But my kids know how
to use them safely and correctly. So, with that context in mind, they
have "played" in ways that most young toddlers don't. Now five years
later, they are still playing that way, and I wonder sometimes why they
haven't moved onto "grander" things.

I *think* it was Sandra that answered early on that her 11 year old
daughter was thought of as mature by others but to her still showed many
signs of being a young girl. I think that's kind of where I was picking.
My kids are not exposed to alot of the older-kid stuff that ps kids
are... yet those ps kids are who I often compare them too by virtue of
the fact that they are here every day.It's wrong, but I fall prey to it.
They often use grown up activities, like cooking and building and
creating as their "play" but also play with blocks and dolls...something
the ps kids no longer do. I hear alot of non-public schooled kids at home
(no matter the method) reading by now or doing complicated science
projects. Mine do neither of that. They also, for a large part, turn to
me for thier entertainment, maybe even increasingly so. I don't see the
level of self-motivation that I seem to hear others talk about so much.

So, both because they started playing with "real" things young and
because they are allowed to still be kids and play with what they want,
their days look almost exactly like they did 2-3 years ago. Why am I
worried? Oh who knows? They are fine I guess. I think I just need to be
assured of that sometimes. I'm surrounded by voices of "they are not"
much more.

Does that explain it better? Tia in Fl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 10/5/03 2:02 PM, Tia Graham at sixredheads@... wrote:

> My kids are not exposed to alot of the older-kid stuff that ps kids
> are... yet those ps kids are who I often compare them too by virtue of
> the fact that they are here every day.

What if they're 5 years "behind"? What if when they're 27 they only have the
abilities of a 22 yo?

> also play with blocks and dolls...something
> the ps kids no longer do.

My daughter had a best friend she played imaginary friends with until we
moved 5 years ago. They'd contact each other once in a while. Last summer we
dropped in for a bit. While my daughter's imaginary friends are still alive
and well, her friend said she hadn't thought about them for a long time.
They were both 11 and her friend was dressed like a teen. (She has 3 older
sisters so that's a factor too.)

Is her friend artificially advanced or is my daughter artificially retarded?
Well I figure people have a whole life time to be grown up but only a few
years to be kids.

> I hear alot of non-public schooled kids at home
> (no matter the method) reading by now or doing complicated science
> projects.

It looks impressive but what does it mean. Will they remember the
experiments 10 years from now?

What are your kids doing *instead* of practicing things they will forget?

> They also, for a large part, turn to
> me for thier entertainment, maybe even increasingly so. I don't see the
> level of self-motivation that I seem to hear others talk about so much.

You're their doorway to the world.

The schooled kids have independence forced on them so they have to go
through the motions of acting independent. They don't have a choice. I'd bet
most of them are scared inside even if they don't show it or even realize
it. (It's a natural feeling for them so they wouldn't recognize it.)

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/5/03 12:08:12 PM, sixredheads@... writes:

<< At 2 my son got his first real hammer. No plastic tools here, we went
right for the real stuff. This has been complicated when dealing with
other kids from families who lock away real tools. But my kids know how
to use them safely and correctly. So, with that context in mind, they
have "played" in ways that most young toddlers don't. Now five years
later, they are still playing that way, and I wonder sometimes why they
haven't moved onto "grander" things.
>>

At two he had a real hammer.
At seven he still does.

How much more "grand" can you get than a real tool?

<<So, both because they started playing with "real" things young and
because they are allowed to still be kids and play with what they want,
their days look almost exactly like they did 2-3 years ago. >>

But what are they THINKING when they play?
The thoughts of a two year old playing with Duplo aren't the thoughts of an
adult playing with Duplo, but still it can be defined as "just playing with
Duplo." There is no "just" when it comes to learning. Learning is learning, and
it's real and if it happens joyfully it can last a lifetime. The short-term
learning we were so used to in school doesn't even exist in my kids' lives.

Sandra

pam sorooshian

Tia,

If you leave them alone to play as they will, they will. It is natural.
It is good. It is what many adults LONG to be able to do, but can't let
themselves, anymore.

My 16 yo daughter goes to college where she takes exams and writes
essays, performs in theater productions (called 'plays' <G>) and comes
home and plays with stuffed animals and American Girl dolls. She plays
with dolls a whole lot less than she did, even a year ago, but she can
still do it. How many 16 yo's are just "beyond it" and can't even
manage to play that way anymore - they've lost the ability.

I've seen imaginative/dramatic play turn into some incredible creative
writing and into more "sophisticated" role playing in many unschooled
kids. I've also seen that they often have that mix of mature and
childlike that Sandra mentioned people notice in Holly. I've seen it in
Holly, too, and in Marty and Kirby and in my own kids and in lots of
other unschooled kids. These are kids that, as adults, will certainly
still have that childlikeness - not a bad thing at all - a very
appealing thing and I think most people would be a whole lot happier in
their adult lives if they'd been able to retain that childlikeness.

Are they responsible? Yes. Not OVER responsible though - they don't
tend to do things just because they "should." They tend to think about
things and make conscious decisions.

Interesting how they tend to live more conscious thoughtful lives and
yet are more able to drop into fantasy easily, too.

-pam

Tia Graham

But what are they THINKING when they play?
The thoughts of a two year old playing with Duplo aren't the thoughts of
an
adult playing with Duplo, but still it can be defined as "just playing
with
Duplo." There is no "just" when it comes to learning. Learning is
learning, and
it's real and if it happens joyfully it can last a lifetime. The
short-term
learning we were so used to in school doesn't even exist in my kids'
lives.
>>>

Excellent point. Exactly what I need to remember. Thanks.

Tia in Fl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

On NPR radio, a psychological program was on one Sunday evening,
citing the "fact" that imaginary friends are very normal, and not to
worry about. The imaginary friends will go away by about age five.


!!!!!!?????

really? LOL then my kids are slow, too, because my almost 11 year old
boy has "10,000 robots" (who, btw, all get to vote, when we're
deciding Rummikubes or Kings in the Corner) and my 9 year old girl has
robots, too. Enemy robots and friend robots. Always battling things
out, not infrequently, in the grocery store with LOTS of noise. LOL

My 15 year old had a goblin named Rover until she was about 10.

slow kids. tut.

;)

HeidiC


> My daughter had a best friend she played imaginary friends with
until we
> moved 5 years ago.

Tia Leschke

>
>So, both because they started playing with "real" things young and
>because they are allowed to still be kids and play with what they want,
>their days look almost exactly like they did 2-3 years ago. Why am I
>worried? Oh who knows? They are fine I guess. I think I just need to be
>assured of that sometimes. I'm surrounded by voices of "they are not"
>much more.


That's why you need to stay here. <G>
Tia in Canada

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/5/03 1:03:37 PM, pamsoroosh@... writes:

<< I've also seen that they often have that mix of mature and
childlike that Sandra mentioned people notice in Holly. I've seen it in
Holly, too, and in Marty and Kirby and in my own kids and in lots of
other unschooled kids. These are kids that, as adults, will certainly
still have that childlikeness >>

This afternoon Keith and I went with Keith's dad and brother over to the park
where the kids were playing "ork ball." Keith explained the rules and
strategies. All three of my kids were playing. That's unusual; Kirby doesn't,
usually, but a friend of theirs was in from out-of-town college, and likes to
play, and they were short a player, so Kirby went.

It's a goofy kind of game. Strenuous and dangerous, but there's a
four-square ball with a wig glued onto it, they all have padded boffers, and you can hit
the carrier, who has to go to one shoulder or hip before he can get up again,
and you can just throw down your sword and tackle. Holly prevented a point
today by just grabbing their guy by the arm and holding on to him so he
couldn't run to get a pass.

The kids playing were 11 to 20 years old. Keith would have played but he has
a hurt shoulder. Now, several of them are upstairs in the library
recuperating. The one kid is driving back to Las Cruces, but the others are all
homeschoolers. It's interesting to sit around with them and see how the
conversation goes from light to entirely serious, back to sweet, over to
personal/current, back to light... Just like the conversations of really ineresting,
intelligent adults. But they're kids, definitely, and play with the dogs and tease
each other about body changes and crushes (not meanly, they're never mean except
for Logan, and he wasn't there today).

Holly dresses like a teen sometimes. Sometimes she dresses like a little
kid, or a hippie from 1969. She wears something appropriate to the activity, in a
color she feels like wearing, or something to match her new nail polish or s
omething to match her friend's outfit.

School tells kids how to act. If the teachers don't sufficiently shame and
limit them to "acting their age," the other kids are sure to finish the job.

Sandra

TreeGoddess

Heidi wrote:

>my almost 11 year old boy has "10,000 robots" (who, btw, all get to vote, when we're
>deciding Rummikubes or Kings in the Corner
>
Is Kings in the Corner a card game? I learned this game from a girl at
a campground when I was about 8 or 9 and my family plays this game, but
I've never met anyone else who's ever heard of it.

TreeGoddess

Heidi

--- In [email protected], TreeGoddess
<treegoddess@c...> wrote:
> Heidi wrote:
>
> >my almost 11 year old boy has "10,000 robots" (who, btw, all get
to vote, when we're
> >deciding Rummikubes or Kings in the Corner
> >
> Is Kings in the Corner a card game? I learned this game from a
girl at
> a campground when I was about 8 or 9 and my family plays this game,
but
> I've never met anyone else who's ever heard of it.
>
> TreeGoddess

Yeah, a card game. We have a little set that came in a box, where you
make your different stacks, but a friend of mine plays it with just a
deck of cards.

Fun game, but my kids love rummikubes best of all.

Blessings, heidiC (gonna play rummikubes today!)