Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Maybe a silly line of thought....
Tia Graham
I'm fairly new to unschooling...been reading about it for 9 months or so
and practicing about 3. Probably a good portion of ya'll would look at my
days and say, "she's no unschooler" LOL. But really, radical life changes
sometimes need small steps.
Now, we're getting in plenty of education. I'm really not worried about
that just now. I switched from "planning" to "recording"...I make lists
of what they did in a day rather than what I want them to do in a day.
They are doing so much that my plans looked like paltry little piles of
work! I'm amazed!
But something keeps crossing my mind: they play like preschool children
play. I mean, thier days are just fun and natural and flowing, like a 3
or 4 year old who hasn't reached school age yet. And something in me
rebells against this. Visions of 7 year olds, back pack and lunch box in
hand, stepping on a bus for a day of school keep hanging around in the
back of my head as what "they *should* be doing at this point in their
lives". The old question of "when do they learn that days are not just
about play" comes up.
They are happy and relaxed and exploratory...just what I want my kids to
be! And it hasn't always been this way so I appreciate the progress. But
is it ever time to "grow up"?
Feel free to laugh if I sound naive, but please be gentle in your replies
;-) Tia in Florida
and practicing about 3. Probably a good portion of ya'll would look at my
days and say, "she's no unschooler" LOL. But really, radical life changes
sometimes need small steps.
Now, we're getting in plenty of education. I'm really not worried about
that just now. I switched from "planning" to "recording"...I make lists
of what they did in a day rather than what I want them to do in a day.
They are doing so much that my plans looked like paltry little piles of
work! I'm amazed!
But something keeps crossing my mind: they play like preschool children
play. I mean, thier days are just fun and natural and flowing, like a 3
or 4 year old who hasn't reached school age yet. And something in me
rebells against this. Visions of 7 year olds, back pack and lunch box in
hand, stepping on a bus for a day of school keep hanging around in the
back of my head as what "they *should* be doing at this point in their
lives". The old question of "when do they learn that days are not just
about play" comes up.
They are happy and relaxed and exploratory...just what I want my kids to
be! And it hasn't always been this way so I appreciate the progress. But
is it ever time to "grow up"?
Feel free to laugh if I sound naive, but please be gentle in your replies
;-) Tia in Florida
Brian and Kathy Stamp
LOL Tia. Did you just see my post after yours? I feel the same thing. You hit the nail right on the head for me. I guess I feel like my dd who is 9 is acting the same as her sister who is 4. I know it's not really true. I mean afterall she is reading and writing, but sometimes it's just so hard to let go of those feelings that we have of what a "9" year old is supposed to be doing and what they will choose to do when given the freedom.
Kathy
Kathy
----- Original Message -----
From: Tia Graham
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Maybe a silly line of thought....
I'm fairly new to unschooling...been reading about it for 9 months or so
and practicing about 3. Probably a good portion of ya'll would look at my
days and say, "she's no unschooler" LOL. But really, radical life changes
sometimes need small steps.
Now, we're getting in plenty of education. I'm really not worried about
that just now. I switched from "planning" to "recording"...I make lists
of what they did in a day rather than what I want them to do in a day.
They are doing so much that my plans looked like paltry little piles of
work! I'm amazed!
But something keeps crossing my mind: they play like preschool children
play. I mean, thier days are just fun and natural and flowing, like a 3
or 4 year old who hasn't reached school age yet. And something in me
rebells against this. Visions of 7 year olds, back pack and lunch box in
hand, stepping on a bus for a day of school keep hanging around in the
back of my head as what "they *should* be doing at this point in their
lives". The old question of "when do they learn that days are not just
about play" comes up.
They are happy and relaxed and exploratory...just what I want my kids to
be! And it hasn't always been this way so I appreciate the progress. But
is it ever time to "grow up"?
Feel free to laugh if I sound naive, but please be gentle in your replies
;-) Tia in Florida
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Graham
<<
LOL Tia. Did you just see my post after yours? I feel the same thing. >>
That's funny Kathy! At least we know we aren't alone 'eh? My kids aren't
reading yet though; I think I'd relax more if they were. Daily practice
is one thing that keeps me tied to "school". I"m good at it though. When
someone asks my son if he did school today, he always says no. So, he's
not pained about it in any way hee hee. They are surrounded with a great
learning-encouraged kind of environment...days just feel like perpetual
summer vacation. Know what I mean? Tia in Fl.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
LOL Tia. Did you just see my post after yours? I feel the same thing. >>
That's funny Kathy! At least we know we aren't alone 'eh? My kids aren't
reading yet though; I think I'd relax more if they were. Daily practice
is one thing that keeps me tied to "school". I"m good at it though. When
someone asks my son if he did school today, he always says no. So, he's
not pained about it in any way hee hee. They are surrounded with a great
learning-encouraged kind of environment...days just feel like perpetual
summer vacation. Know what I mean? Tia in Fl.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/2/03 9:32:25 AM, sixredheads@... writes:
<< I make lists
of what they did in a day rather than what I want them to do in a day.
They are doing so much that my plans looked like paltry little piles of
work! I'm amazed!
Kirby was little. The things he came across on his own or discovered while we
were out and about were frequently better than I could have planned!
<<The old question of "when do they learn that days are not just
about play" comes up. >>
Look at the adults you know. Some quit playing years ago. They shut down
their senses of humor, they closed off their sense of wonder, they blush if they
accidently have a fleeting thought that something is REALLY COOL!
You don't want your kids to be that way, do you?
When ARE days not just about play?
I've been collecting morning glory seeds to give to my sister who's just
gotten a new house. Every day I go out and collect seeds. It's fun. It's
soothing. It has become a game for me, and I'm learning a lot about the plants. In
past years I've waited until after frost to collect seeds, but the
housewarming party is next weekend, the 12th, and that's pre-frost.
It only takes half a day for some pods that weren't dry to dry breakable. A
full day, one can be totally dry. So I check every day.
I could spend $2 and buy her some seeds, or not even bother. She could buy
her own damned seeds.
I'm playing.
Last night I started going to bed at 10:00, but one thing and another
happened with the kids, so at 11:45 I was FINALLY saying "This is it, see you guys."
Kirby had a friend over, and they were playing a game. Marty was on the
computer, and listening to music. Holly had been doing something that involved
cloth and dolls. As I was loading the dishwasher, I muttered that the floor
needed to be mopped. Holly said "That's MY job!"
She's never done it before, and I don't do it a whole lot myself.
So she asked me a couple of logistical questions, and I thanked her and went
to bed, while she was sweeping in preparation.
I woke up this morning. The kitchen was mopped really well. The mop had
been rinsed and was set in a good place to dry. Downstairs, there was a pile of
phonics worksheets (out of a phonics book that surfaced when we rearranged the
den), filled out, torn out, scattered on the floor in front of the TV.
Holly and Marty and I had planned to get up at 9:00 to watch Wayne Brady. I
got up at 6:30, did a bunch of stuff, woke them up and they were both too
tired and decided to pass.
No problem.
We were just going to do it for fun.
Kirby goes to work at 11:30 and then teaches beginning karate at 4:00, takes
his own level class at 5:00, and a weapons/kobudo class at 6:00. That's a
seriously scheduled day for him. Yet it's play, because they're things he
chooses to do, and likes to do.
<<They are happy and relaxed and exploratory...just what I want my kids to
be! And it hasn't always been this way so I appreciate the progress. But
is it ever time to "grow up"?>>
If by "grow up" you mean stop thinking the world is a wonderful place, maybe
you should take back your wish.
If by "grow up" you mean grow through the stage of adolescence, realize they
could reproduce, start to experience the urge to maybe go out on their own,
maybe mate, maybe explore the world without mom or dad, yes. That will happen
if you're lucky.
If by "grow up" you mean prematurally pretend to be "grown" and
sober/serious/businesslike/no-nonsense, people have been doing that for a long time, and it
hasn't made the world a better place.
My kids are 17, 14 and 11. They're responsible with their things. They keep
their word. They're considerate of others' feelings. They're honest and
careful with money. I wish more adults were.
Sandra
<< I make lists
of what they did in a day rather than what I want them to do in a day.
They are doing so much that my plans looked like paltry little piles of
work! I'm amazed!
>>That's one of the things that solidified my confidence in unschooling, when
Kirby was little. The things he came across on his own or discovered while we
were out and about were frequently better than I could have planned!
<<The old question of "when do they learn that days are not just
about play" comes up. >>
Look at the adults you know. Some quit playing years ago. They shut down
their senses of humor, they closed off their sense of wonder, they blush if they
accidently have a fleeting thought that something is REALLY COOL!
You don't want your kids to be that way, do you?
When ARE days not just about play?
I've been collecting morning glory seeds to give to my sister who's just
gotten a new house. Every day I go out and collect seeds. It's fun. It's
soothing. It has become a game for me, and I'm learning a lot about the plants. In
past years I've waited until after frost to collect seeds, but the
housewarming party is next weekend, the 12th, and that's pre-frost.
It only takes half a day for some pods that weren't dry to dry breakable. A
full day, one can be totally dry. So I check every day.
I could spend $2 and buy her some seeds, or not even bother. She could buy
her own damned seeds.
I'm playing.
Last night I started going to bed at 10:00, but one thing and another
happened with the kids, so at 11:45 I was FINALLY saying "This is it, see you guys."
Kirby had a friend over, and they were playing a game. Marty was on the
computer, and listening to music. Holly had been doing something that involved
cloth and dolls. As I was loading the dishwasher, I muttered that the floor
needed to be mopped. Holly said "That's MY job!"
She's never done it before, and I don't do it a whole lot myself.
So she asked me a couple of logistical questions, and I thanked her and went
to bed, while she was sweeping in preparation.
I woke up this morning. The kitchen was mopped really well. The mop had
been rinsed and was set in a good place to dry. Downstairs, there was a pile of
phonics worksheets (out of a phonics book that surfaced when we rearranged the
den), filled out, torn out, scattered on the floor in front of the TV.
Holly and Marty and I had planned to get up at 9:00 to watch Wayne Brady. I
got up at 6:30, did a bunch of stuff, woke them up and they were both too
tired and decided to pass.
No problem.
We were just going to do it for fun.
Kirby goes to work at 11:30 and then teaches beginning karate at 4:00, takes
his own level class at 5:00, and a weapons/kobudo class at 6:00. That's a
seriously scheduled day for him. Yet it's play, because they're things he
chooses to do, and likes to do.
<<They are happy and relaxed and exploratory...just what I want my kids to
be! And it hasn't always been this way so I appreciate the progress. But
is it ever time to "grow up"?>>
If by "grow up" you mean stop thinking the world is a wonderful place, maybe
you should take back your wish.
If by "grow up" you mean grow through the stage of adolescence, realize they
could reproduce, start to experience the urge to maybe go out on their own,
maybe mate, maybe explore the world without mom or dad, yes. That will happen
if you're lucky.
If by "grow up" you mean prematurally pretend to be "grown" and
sober/serious/businesslike/no-nonsense, people have been doing that for a long time, and it
hasn't made the world a better place.
My kids are 17, 14 and 11. They're responsible with their things. They keep
their word. They're considerate of others' feelings. They're honest and
careful with money. I wish more adults were.
Sandra
Mary
From: "Tia Graham" <sixredheads@...>
<< The old question of "when do they learn that days are not just
about play" comes up.
They are happy and relaxed and exploratory...just what I want my kids to
be! And it hasn't always been this way so I appreciate the progress. But
is it ever time to "grow up"?>>
Well I would love to say that my kids would always think the days were full
of play. Hopefully if they grow older and find something they really love to
do that will support them, they will think that way. My husband, finally
after years of searching found what he really loves to do and because of
that, he is terrrific at it and loves doing it. I hope the same for our
children. So my answer to the first question would be "hopefully never."
I feel like anyone learns better when they "play." Meaning if it's fun for
them (playing) they learn from it. I absolutely hate messing with the
computer and different programs. I just don't enjoy it. I get on, do what I
want to do and that's it. My husband loves playing around with all sorts of
things on here. He has tried to show me. I don't like it, so when he does
show me, I usually don't remember how to do it the next day. It's not fun
for me. He on the other hand, when he gets a free even ing where he can sit
on here for an hour or so goes nuts. He loves it, he's good at it and really
enjoys it. He's learning tons while I'm learning nothing. Well not really
but you get the picture.
He's playing and learning. I'm not playing and dreading it. I think that
pretty much goes for most things in life. Play is different for all of us.
I just posted something to another list when someone was talking about their
kids watching mindless tv. I mentioned that my son adores YuGiOh. It's one
show he watches that I just don't enjoy. But I would never say it was
stupid. For him, it's not at all. That show lead to him wanting to play the
card game. That lead to him reading better, it lead to him doing math
better. Then he wanted to enter tournaments and I watched this skinny little
8 year old waltz into a store like he owned the place, walk up to 17 year
old strangers and have a conversation with them and either play a game or
trade cards like he was doing it all his life. I was quite impressed. For
him, it was all play.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
<< The old question of "when do they learn that days are not just
about play" comes up.
They are happy and relaxed and exploratory...just what I want my kids to
be! And it hasn't always been this way so I appreciate the progress. But
is it ever time to "grow up"?>>
Well I would love to say that my kids would always think the days were full
of play. Hopefully if they grow older and find something they really love to
do that will support them, they will think that way. My husband, finally
after years of searching found what he really loves to do and because of
that, he is terrrific at it and loves doing it. I hope the same for our
children. So my answer to the first question would be "hopefully never."
I feel like anyone learns better when they "play." Meaning if it's fun for
them (playing) they learn from it. I absolutely hate messing with the
computer and different programs. I just don't enjoy it. I get on, do what I
want to do and that's it. My husband loves playing around with all sorts of
things on here. He has tried to show me. I don't like it, so when he does
show me, I usually don't remember how to do it the next day. It's not fun
for me. He on the other hand, when he gets a free even ing where he can sit
on here for an hour or so goes nuts. He loves it, he's good at it and really
enjoys it. He's learning tons while I'm learning nothing. Well not really
but you get the picture.
He's playing and learning. I'm not playing and dreading it. I think that
pretty much goes for most things in life. Play is different for all of us.
I just posted something to another list when someone was talking about their
kids watching mindless tv. I mentioned that my son adores YuGiOh. It's one
show he watches that I just don't enjoy. But I would never say it was
stupid. For him, it's not at all. That show lead to him wanting to play the
card game. That lead to him reading better, it lead to him doing math
better. Then he wanted to enter tournaments and I watched this skinny little
8 year old waltz into a store like he owned the place, walk up to 17 year
old strangers and have a conversation with them and either play a game or
trade cards like he was doing it all his life. I was quite impressed. For
him, it was all play.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
[email protected]
-=-sometimes it's just so hard to let go of those feelings that we have of
what a "9" year old is supposed to be doing and what they will choose to do when
given the freedom.-=-
In school kids who are nine aren't allowed to play with kids who are seven,
or twelve. Maybe not even with kids who are eight or ten. And they extend
that to their out-of-school lives, lots of times, telling other kids "You're a
baby, you can't play with us," or "You're just a FIRST grader."
Unschoolers don't have those divisions and prejudices. So we see how
children really act. School sees how their rules make children act. But they think
all children are in school, and so they think that it's natural behavior.
Someone my age who grew up in my hometown moved away from New Mexico over 30
years ago. I contacted her last week for the first time in all that time.
A mutual friend had run into her, and so forth.
I sent her Holly's webpage so she could see the photo of my family. She
wrote this back:
-=-Now for the SUPER-SIZED WOW -- your daughter Holly! She seems like the
paragon of maturity or at least a point far beyond where we were at her
age. You must be very proud of her (and her brothers). In Holly's
profile she refers to her cousin, Gina Trujillo. Is Gina one of Nada's
daughter's? I'm not surprised that a daughter of yours has an
appreciation for the musical. It seems like yesterday that we were
hanging out and you and Jon Tsosie provided the entertainment.
You were singing Big Yellow Taxi long before Amy Grant or Counting Crows
did.-=-
Holly's page is
http://sandradodd.com/holly
So someone (with a vivid memory, I should add--photographic memory for people
and places) who knew me when I was the age any of my kids are now (and
younger) thinks Holly seems mature.
I could cite twenty instances of "immature" behavior on Holly's part in the
past week, if anyone wanted to call playing Barbies immature, or carrying a
baby doll, or playing with stuffed animals, or putting stickers on all her little
scabs and zits (stick-on earrings), or coloring her hair with a marker the
same day she's styling all her Barbies, who shampoos and curls her My Little
Ponies, who was really excited about a preying mantis in the car, and squatted to
watch and discuss snails and a slug in the yard last night.
When is she going to grow up?
She is at once more mature and less mature than the school-issue 11 year old.
She would be in sixth grade. How do sixth graders dress? Holly dresses as
an adult sometimes, and as a little girl sometimes. How do sixth graders
talk? Holly talks like a person, about real interests, and asks real questions
and she cares about the answers.
If you worry about your children, make an effort to be around other
unschooled kids, older than yours, and see if you think they're growing up okay.
I think you'll lose your worries.
Sandra
what a "9" year old is supposed to be doing and what they will choose to do when
given the freedom.-=-
In school kids who are nine aren't allowed to play with kids who are seven,
or twelve. Maybe not even with kids who are eight or ten. And they extend
that to their out-of-school lives, lots of times, telling other kids "You're a
baby, you can't play with us," or "You're just a FIRST grader."
Unschoolers don't have those divisions and prejudices. So we see how
children really act. School sees how their rules make children act. But they think
all children are in school, and so they think that it's natural behavior.
Someone my age who grew up in my hometown moved away from New Mexico over 30
years ago. I contacted her last week for the first time in all that time.
A mutual friend had run into her, and so forth.
I sent her Holly's webpage so she could see the photo of my family. She
wrote this back:
-=-Now for the SUPER-SIZED WOW -- your daughter Holly! She seems like the
paragon of maturity or at least a point far beyond where we were at her
age. You must be very proud of her (and her brothers). In Holly's
profile she refers to her cousin, Gina Trujillo. Is Gina one of Nada's
daughter's? I'm not surprised that a daughter of yours has an
appreciation for the musical. It seems like yesterday that we were
hanging out and you and Jon Tsosie provided the entertainment.
You were singing Big Yellow Taxi long before Amy Grant or Counting Crows
did.-=-
Holly's page is
http://sandradodd.com/holly
So someone (with a vivid memory, I should add--photographic memory for people
and places) who knew me when I was the age any of my kids are now (and
younger) thinks Holly seems mature.
I could cite twenty instances of "immature" behavior on Holly's part in the
past week, if anyone wanted to call playing Barbies immature, or carrying a
baby doll, or playing with stuffed animals, or putting stickers on all her little
scabs and zits (stick-on earrings), or coloring her hair with a marker the
same day she's styling all her Barbies, who shampoos and curls her My Little
Ponies, who was really excited about a preying mantis in the car, and squatted to
watch and discuss snails and a slug in the yard last night.
When is she going to grow up?
She is at once more mature and less mature than the school-issue 11 year old.
She would be in sixth grade. How do sixth graders dress? Holly dresses as
an adult sometimes, and as a little girl sometimes. How do sixth graders
talk? Holly talks like a person, about real interests, and asks real questions
and she cares about the answers.
If you worry about your children, make an effort to be around other
unschooled kids, older than yours, and see if you think they're growing up okay.
I think you'll lose your worries.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/2/03 10:30:59 AM, sixredheads@... writes:
<< Daily practice
is one thing that keeps me tied to "school". I"m good at it though. >>
Daily practice of what?
Reading?
Every moment is a step backwards, if that's what you're doing.
I'm entirely serious.
It can't happen naturally if you don't let it happen.
Sandra
<< Daily practice
is one thing that keeps me tied to "school". I"m good at it though. >>
Daily practice of what?
Reading?
Every moment is a step backwards, if that's what you're doing.
I'm entirely serious.
It can't happen naturally if you don't let it happen.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/2/03 10:27:02 AM, mummy124@... writes:
<< He's playing and learning. I'm not playing and dreading it. I think that
pretty much goes for most things in life. Play is different for all of us. >>
Play can be really hard work, too.
One night last week Holly dug a DEEP hole in a low place where the yard had
flooded. She was just goofing around, but dug about two feet, picking up
shovelfuls of mud and arranging time to make the hold even deeper, and then playing
in the hole. She was out there with just a flashlight. I went it and opened
a window where she was, turned all the lights on in that room and aimed a
desk lamp out toward her.
She worked on that for an hour.
It was sweaty, dirty work, but it was voluntary play.
Marty has a bunch of kids who play "ork ball" nearly every Sunday afternoon.
They play for most of three hours, and play HARD, and some get hurt, and they
get grumpy and they make up and they re-tell their stories, congratulate each
other profusely, and though it would be easier to stay home and watch a
movie, they CHOSE to do what's hard, as play.
<<Then he wanted to enter tournaments and I watched this skinny little
8 year old waltz into a store like he owned the place, walk up to 17 year
old strangers and have a conversation with them and either play a game or
trade cards like he was doing it all his life. I was quite impressed. For
him, it was all play.>>
Kirby has been one of those 17 year olds little kids come up to to play
Yu-Gi-Oh, or Pokemon, and he's been one of the guys that both kids and adults come
up to when registering for Magic tournaments, Lord of the Rings card games,
etc.
People pay big bucks to play those games! They have the same gaming value as
chess, they involve "story line" (literary factors galore), art (if you
haven't looked at collectible cards, DO!), tons of math, sometimes real-world
history, often battle tactics (even though just talk, but even in the real military
the tacticians are often "just talking" while others are doing the moving and
doing)... Big deal. Much work and money. Yet play.
Sandra
<< He's playing and learning. I'm not playing and dreading it. I think that
pretty much goes for most things in life. Play is different for all of us. >>
Play can be really hard work, too.
One night last week Holly dug a DEEP hole in a low place where the yard had
flooded. She was just goofing around, but dug about two feet, picking up
shovelfuls of mud and arranging time to make the hold even deeper, and then playing
in the hole. She was out there with just a flashlight. I went it and opened
a window where she was, turned all the lights on in that room and aimed a
desk lamp out toward her.
She worked on that for an hour.
It was sweaty, dirty work, but it was voluntary play.
Marty has a bunch of kids who play "ork ball" nearly every Sunday afternoon.
They play for most of three hours, and play HARD, and some get hurt, and they
get grumpy and they make up and they re-tell their stories, congratulate each
other profusely, and though it would be easier to stay home and watch a
movie, they CHOSE to do what's hard, as play.
<<Then he wanted to enter tournaments and I watched this skinny little
8 year old waltz into a store like he owned the place, walk up to 17 year
old strangers and have a conversation with them and either play a game or
trade cards like he was doing it all his life. I was quite impressed. For
him, it was all play.>>
Kirby has been one of those 17 year olds little kids come up to to play
Yu-Gi-Oh, or Pokemon, and he's been one of the guys that both kids and adults come
up to when registering for Magic tournaments, Lord of the Rings card games,
etc.
People pay big bucks to play those games! They have the same gaming value as
chess, they involve "story line" (literary factors galore), art (if you
haven't looked at collectible cards, DO!), tons of math, sometimes real-world
history, often battle tactics (even though just talk, but even in the real military
the tacticians are often "just talking" while others are doing the moving and
doing)... Big deal. Much work and money. Yet play.
Sandra
Tia Graham
<<
Daily practice of what?
Reading?
I grab one of our short little readers. I say, "Andrew, want to come sit
with me and read for a few minutes? You could do that since you don't
want to watch Barney and brother and sister do."
"Okay mom"
And we read the book. I help him where he needs it and then he does a
final re-read. That's it. No more workbooks or painful phonics lessons.
He isn't bothered by it and we get to "check off reading" for Dad, who
isn't all that interested in this experiment of mine but who tolerates it
as long as he knows I'm at least trying to let reading and math fall into
thier path to stumble over daily.
I've been waiting for them to learn about money. So yesterday I put out
a toy catalog for them to find and they asked how much something cost. I
showed them where the price near the description was. They asked about
dollars and cents so we talked all about that. I got out the play money
and equivelent flash cards and they learned about that. I wrote it down
as math and they had something to show dad when he came home.
If they hadn't asked about cost, and just wanted to look at the toys, it
would have been fine. I would have though looked for another place to
"drop" math into thier path. If he hadn't wanted to sit and read, I would
have written post-it notes around the house or something, for him to
find, and get practice that way.
That's wrong? Please explain. Tia in Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Daily practice of what?
Reading?
>>Yeeaaaahhhhh....but it's bad to do that? Here's what it looks like:
I grab one of our short little readers. I say, "Andrew, want to come sit
with me and read for a few minutes? You could do that since you don't
want to watch Barney and brother and sister do."
"Okay mom"
And we read the book. I help him where he needs it and then he does a
final re-read. That's it. No more workbooks or painful phonics lessons.
He isn't bothered by it and we get to "check off reading" for Dad, who
isn't all that interested in this experiment of mine but who tolerates it
as long as he knows I'm at least trying to let reading and math fall into
thier path to stumble over daily.
I've been waiting for them to learn about money. So yesterday I put out
a toy catalog for them to find and they asked how much something cost. I
showed them where the price near the description was. They asked about
dollars and cents so we talked all about that. I got out the play money
and equivelent flash cards and they learned about that. I wrote it down
as math and they had something to show dad when he came home.
If they hadn't asked about cost, and just wanted to look at the toys, it
would have been fine. I would have though looked for another place to
"drop" math into thier path. If he hadn't wanted to sit and read, I would
have written post-it notes around the house or something, for him to
find, and get practice that way.
That's wrong? Please explain. Tia in Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
sixredheads@... writes:
Sorry bout that. ;-) They'll mature on their own timetable, maybe not in the
typical ways. Makes it harder to see at first, maybe. My son, 9, was very
mature at a very young age, but only in some ways. It might not be in ways
that you overtly value as maturity, tho.
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> ButNO!! lol Never.
> is it ever time to "grow up"?
>
Sorry bout that. ;-) They'll mature on their own timetable, maybe not in the
typical ways. Makes it harder to see at first, maybe. My son, 9, was very
mature at a very young age, but only in some ways. It might not be in ways
that you overtly value as maturity, tho.
> Feel free to laugh if I sound naive, but please be gentle in your repliesI don't think you sound naive, sounds to me like your still deschooling.
> ;-) Tia in Florida
>
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sharon Caldwell
Hi, just an intro first - I'm Sharon in South Africa. I run a small
"school" which is basically unschooling (I can explain more about that in a
separate post later) but felt compelled to answer Tia. My son is 12. He
spent his day (in fact has spent the whole week) at a computer workshop run
by a local training company, aimed mostly at high school students. He is
computer crazy and begged to go on it. Today he was learning about Flash.
He has these fat manuals that he studies avidly. He came home to find me
unpacking toys that I am going to be selling and spent about two years
playing with a doll's house with his ten year old brother. Then he took out
a set of coloured shape tiles (the type they use in pre-schools) and happily
made patterns for ages - then he got the digital camera and said "cool - I
can get some neat angles - and then I'll animate it tomorrow". What was
playing and what was "working"? - I don't know. Children are doing
something very important internally when they are "just playing" - the
thought occured to me that it's hidden because it is so important - If we
could see what was happening we adults would try to muck with it ...
(hope that was gentle enough!)
SHARON
"school" which is basically unschooling (I can explain more about that in a
separate post later) but felt compelled to answer Tia. My son is 12. He
spent his day (in fact has spent the whole week) at a computer workshop run
by a local training company, aimed mostly at high school students. He is
computer crazy and begged to go on it. Today he was learning about Flash.
He has these fat manuals that he studies avidly. He came home to find me
unpacking toys that I am going to be selling and spent about two years
playing with a doll's house with his ten year old brother. Then he took out
a set of coloured shape tiles (the type they use in pre-schools) and happily
made patterns for ages - then he got the digital camera and said "cool - I
can get some neat angles - and then I'll animate it tomorrow". What was
playing and what was "working"? - I don't know. Children are doing
something very important internally when they are "just playing" - the
thought occured to me that it's hidden because it is so important - If we
could see what was happening we adults would try to muck with it ...
(hope that was gentle enough!)
SHARON
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/2/03 12:29:56 PM, sixredheads@... writes:
<< And we read the book. I help him where he needs it >>
That's not "we."
That's him reading it, if you're helping him.
<< I got out the play money>>
Why didn't you get out real money?
Play money is one of the most amusing thing on earth. Fifty plastic pennies
for $4.95. VERY very funny.
<<If they hadn't asked about cost, and just wanted to look at the toys, it
would have been fine. I would have though looked for another place to
"drop" math into thier path.>>
Don't you take them to the grocery store with you? Do you ever go out for
ice cream? Do they get an allowance? Have you ever ordered pizza and given the
delivery guy a tip?
If they're not old enough to understand prices at a restaurant or tips, then
they're also not old enough to need to know.
<<If he hadn't wanted to sit and read, I would
have written post-it notes around the house or something, for him to
find, and get practice that way.>>
DOES he want to sit and read?
Does he want to because you're doing it to placate his dad?
That's not quite an honest desire of his own.
I want to do what others need and I want to placate people too. I just try
to keep it separate from learning, because if you show him that you don't trust
natural learning, he won't trust it either. And if he learns to read (in
your opinion or his or his dad's) because of your daily sessions, he will think
he needs daily sessions of other things, later.
If he learns to read on his own and he knows it, and you know it, he won't
worry about anything else for the rest of his life. Not much is harder than a
young person figuring out how to read on his own.
If you take that away, unschooling will be harder for all of you.
It's not "wrong," it's just not optimal, and you're trying to move forward
with the brakes on.
Sandra
<< And we read the book. I help him where he needs it >>
That's not "we."
That's him reading it, if you're helping him.
<< I got out the play money>>
Why didn't you get out real money?
Play money is one of the most amusing thing on earth. Fifty plastic pennies
for $4.95. VERY very funny.
<<If they hadn't asked about cost, and just wanted to look at the toys, it
would have been fine. I would have though looked for another place to
"drop" math into thier path.>>
Don't you take them to the grocery store with you? Do you ever go out for
ice cream? Do they get an allowance? Have you ever ordered pizza and given the
delivery guy a tip?
If they're not old enough to understand prices at a restaurant or tips, then
they're also not old enough to need to know.
<<If he hadn't wanted to sit and read, I would
have written post-it notes around the house or something, for him to
find, and get practice that way.>>
DOES he want to sit and read?
Does he want to because you're doing it to placate his dad?
That's not quite an honest desire of his own.
I want to do what others need and I want to placate people too. I just try
to keep it separate from learning, because if you show him that you don't trust
natural learning, he won't trust it either. And if he learns to read (in
your opinion or his or his dad's) because of your daily sessions, he will think
he needs daily sessions of other things, later.
If he learns to read on his own and he knows it, and you know it, he won't
worry about anything else for the rest of his life. Not much is harder than a
young person figuring out how to read on his own.
If you take that away, unschooling will be harder for all of you.
It's not "wrong," it's just not optimal, and you're trying to move forward
with the brakes on.
Sandra
pam sorooshian
On Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 08:19 AM, Tia Graham wrote:
wanted desperately to ALLOW my children to keep playing "just like
preschool children play" -- EXACTLY.
And what I've seen is wonderful. WONDERFUL. They still play that way -
in fun natural flowing ways - at 12, 16, and 18. The games become more
sophisticated in many ways - lots of things the older kids do would
look more like "work" than "play" to others - but that SENSE of
playfulness, that FLOW, is still there.
And I honest-to-goodness think that is the greatest gift I've given my
children.
-pam
> But something keeps crossing my mind: they play like preschool childrenMy homeschooling/unschooling partly got started precisely because I
> play. I mean, thier days are just fun and natural and flowing, like a 3
> or 4 year old who hasn't reached school age yet.
wanted desperately to ALLOW my children to keep playing "just like
preschool children play" -- EXACTLY.
And what I've seen is wonderful. WONDERFUL. They still play that way -
in fun natural flowing ways - at 12, 16, and 18. The games become more
sophisticated in many ways - lots of things the older kids do would
look more like "work" than "play" to others - but that SENSE of
playfulness, that FLOW, is still there.
And I honest-to-goodness think that is the greatest gift I've given my
children.
-pam
nellebelle
<< I got out the play money>>
Why didn't you get out real money?>>>>>>
Several years ago, I bought a play cash register for my dd. I thought it was cool bc it had great big buttons on the front and also was a solar calculator. What kid couldn't have fun with a real working calculator of her very own?
Well, we were at my brother's for holidays when she opened it. Right away she wanted to "sell" us things. She would give people the play money so we could use it to "buy" stuff. At the time she knew that money buys stuff, but didn't understand the arithmetic yet, and would just give us any combination of money for change. That was fine with me. It was her toy and I didn't buy it to teach her anything, I just thought she would like it. My brother started turning it into a lesson in arithmetic. She responded by refusing to sell anything else. Instead, she played at giving all of us stuff. I was impressed by her brilliance at avoiding his lesson.
Now she gets real lessons in spending real money and once in awhile will even choose to not spend it. She still plays with her cash register/calculator too though. I guess I was right about it being something she would like.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Why didn't you get out real money?>>>>>>
Several years ago, I bought a play cash register for my dd. I thought it was cool bc it had great big buttons on the front and also was a solar calculator. What kid couldn't have fun with a real working calculator of her very own?
Well, we were at my brother's for holidays when she opened it. Right away she wanted to "sell" us things. She would give people the play money so we could use it to "buy" stuff. At the time she knew that money buys stuff, but didn't understand the arithmetic yet, and would just give us any combination of money for change. That was fine with me. It was her toy and I didn't buy it to teach her anything, I just thought she would like it. My brother started turning it into a lesson in arithmetic. She responded by refusing to sell anything else. Instead, she played at giving all of us stuff. I was impressed by her brilliance at avoiding his lesson.
Now she gets real lessons in spending real money and once in awhile will even choose to not spend it. She still plays with her cash register/calculator too though. I guess I was right about it being something she would like.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Graham
If you worry about your children, make an effort to be around other
unschooled kids, older than yours, and see if you think they're growing
up okay.
city is made up of those "fundamentalist Christian Homeschoolers" ya'll
have been back and forth about. In fact, I've never even met a
homeschooler in my city that didn't homeschool for religious reasons and
our local organization (and fair cooridinators) are all of the same
mindset. I'm so glad that I had the computer! If it weren't for a bunch
of great women who couldn't see that I was wearing a denim skirt and
spoke to my mind/words instead, I'd probably be still desperately trying
to get out of my box. I'm not practiced in knowing how to find real life
women outside the box..... where to start?
Tia in Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooled kids, older than yours, and see if you think they're growing
up okay.
>>Where does one find these? I should mention that the vast majority of my
city is made up of those "fundamentalist Christian Homeschoolers" ya'll
have been back and forth about. In fact, I've never even met a
homeschooler in my city that didn't homeschool for religious reasons and
our local organization (and fair cooridinators) are all of the same
mindset. I'm so glad that I had the computer! If it weren't for a bunch
of great women who couldn't see that I was wearing a denim skirt and
spoke to my mind/words instead, I'd probably be still desperately trying
to get out of my box. I'm not practiced in knowing how to find real life
women outside the box..... where to start?
Tia in Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Graham
(hope that was gentle enough!)
SHARON
unschooling school! I love that my kids play...I guess I just get tense
sometimes feeling like that's *all* they do. This is new ground for me.
Tia in Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SHARON
>>yes it was Sharon ;-). Thanks. I'd like to hear more about your
unschooling school! I love that my kids play...I guess I just get tense
sometimes feeling like that's *all* they do. This is new ground for me.
Tia in Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Graham
Why didn't you get out real money?
examples of mommy writing a check, mommy using plastic...but actual cash
isn't part of our regular life often. I also had that play money sitting
around as part of my math curriculum from last year and wanted to have
them at least *touch* it sometime in childhood. ;-) As for trips to the
grocery store, they are more an example of "speed shopping" with three
small kids than lessons in math. :-(
<<DOES he want to sit and read?
well. He'd like to get rid of the icky feeling when he says, "I'm just
not good at books I guess". He'd like to be able to use his measure tape,
get his building materials at Home Depot, and pay for the stuff. He's
motivated to be independant and has realized that reading is necessary.
He is *not* wanting to sit and write for longer than one sentence or work
from a reading curriculum. He wants it with as little effort as possible
and I'm trying to help him acheive that.
<<It's not "wrong," it's just not optimal, and you're trying to move
forward
with the brakes on.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>LOL! I never keep that stuff around! No, my kids get quite alot of
examples of mommy writing a check, mommy using plastic...but actual cash
isn't part of our regular life often. I also had that play money sitting
around as part of my math curriculum from last year and wanted to have
them at least *touch* it sometime in childhood. ;-) As for trips to the
grocery store, they are more an example of "speed shopping" with three
small kids than lessons in math. :-(
<<DOES he want to sit and read?
>>>He wants to be on equal footing with his peers, all of whom can read
well. He'd like to get rid of the icky feeling when he says, "I'm just
not good at books I guess". He'd like to be able to use his measure tape,
get his building materials at Home Depot, and pay for the stuff. He's
motivated to be independant and has realized that reading is necessary.
He is *not* wanting to sit and write for longer than one sentence or work
from a reading curriculum. He wants it with as little effort as possible
and I'm trying to help him acheive that.
<<It's not "wrong," it's just not optimal, and you're trying to move
forward
with the brakes on.
>>Food for thought. Thanks. Tia in Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>Where are you in Florida? I know we have some members there.
>Where does one find these? I should mention that the vast majority of my
>city is made up of those "fundamentalist Christian Homeschoolers" ya'll
>have been back and forth about. In fact, I've never even met a
>homeschooler in my city that didn't homeschool for religious reasons and
>our local organization (and fair cooridinators) are all of the same
>mindset. I'm so glad that I had the computer! If it weren't for a bunch
>of great women who couldn't see that I was wearing a denim skirt and
>spoke to my mind/words instead, I'd probably be still desperately trying
>to get out of my box. I'm not practiced in knowing how to find real life
>women outside the box..... where to start?
Tia in Canada
Tia Graham
Where are you in Florida? I know we have some members there.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>Northeast. Tia in Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<Yeeaaaahhhhh....but it's bad to do that? Here's what it looks like:
I grab one of our short little readers. I say, "Andrew, want to come sit
with me and read for a few minutes? You could do that since you don't
want to watch Barney and brother and sister do."
"Okay mom">>
I never invite Jayn to come and read. I do my own reading when I can
snatch a few minutes, and she asks me to read to her when she wants to
read. Or she asks me to put one of her games into the computer for her.
I'm sorry to sound harsh, but that whole conversation seems contrived.
Just because he didn't care for Barney (and I don't blame him for that)
doesn't mean that he didn't have some other activity in mind for
himself. Does he have the freedom to say "Not right now" (one of Jayn's
favorite phrases) and go about his business? Do you perceive doing
nothing in particular as vegetative idleness, or as someone involved
with their own important thoughts?
<<And we read the book. I help him where he needs it and then he does a
final re-read. That's it. No more workbooks or painful phonics lessons.
He isn't bothered by it and we get to "check off reading" for Dad, who
isn't all that interested in this experiment of mine but who tolerates
it
as long as he knows I'm at least trying to let reading and math fall
into
thier path to stumble over daily.>>
There are lots of threads in the archives and message boards about
reluctant spouses. How would you feel if you husband had a list of
particular housework tasks you had to accomplish and you had to check
them off each day? What happens when you don't get through the
designated tasks? I feel that any practice that sets up (1) one parent
as an authority that must be deferred to rather than a partner, (2) you
having to manipulate the information that your husband is getting about
the children's day, is a dangerous practice and contrary to the living
in freedom life of joy that Unschooling can be. Gee I hope you can help
your husband around. James, my dh, had a great time at the conference,
and met a spectrum of fathers along the path to acceptance. We also
found out just how much more he gets it than I realized about him
anyway.
What you have been doing doesn't sound like the benign "strewing" you
seem to desire it to be. It seems more active and always with ulterior
motives. Gosh that sounds sinister. Lots of threads about strewing in
the archives also.
BTW, I never assume that Jayn is feeling a certain way or is "not
bothered" about something, unless I ask her specifically and in a
non-leading way.
<<I've been waiting for them to learn about money. So yesterday I put
out
a toy catalog for them to find and they asked how much something cost. I
showed them where the price near the description was. They asked about
dollars and cents so we talked all about that. I got out the play money
and equivelent flash cards and they learned about that. I wrote it down
as math and they had something to show dad when he came home.>>
You lost faith - some kind of mental timetable you are still holding on
to made you lose patience with the process, so you had to take action.
Jayn calls the toy catalogues that come her "magazines". I don't even
look at them, just pass them to her. She gets so excited by new things,
and sometimes is disgusted when all they do is repeat the items in the
last catalogue. She sometimes asks about prices. Sometimes I have to
tell her things are too expensive for us to afford right now.
<<If they hadn't asked about cost, and just wanted to look at the toys,
it
would have been fine. I would have though looked for another place to
"drop" math into thier path. If he hadn't wanted to sit and read, I
would
have written post-it notes around the house or something, for him to
find, and get practice that way.
That's wrong? Please explain.>>
It's not wrong, so much as not Unschooling. It is still your need to
look like something got done, your priorities, your either conscious or
unconscious need to keep up and take responsibility for their EDUCATION
and PROGRESS, instead of allowing them to be responsible for their own
learning. It is still separating "life" from "educational activities",
with the attendant belief that educational activities are "better" than
the others, and that a day without (insert subject here) is an
incomplete day. If it is easier for you, try imagining that every thing
is educational. Personally I like to think that nothing has to be.
The real problem is what you and your children are missing out on with
all this "dropping of math into their path" - which is the excitement
and joy of spontaneously finding the math both on and off the path and
running to show you what they found; the fulfillment of choosing and
knowing it is a real choice to read/do something - how do you know that
your son was not on the point of making a request to you to do some
reading? You don't have to "practice" reading - you just read stuff that
is interesting to you; you don't have to "practice" math if you have
real internal reasons for doing it. Jayn sometimes gets a bug about
measuring stuff with her little retractable measuring tape. Why? I don't
know, but her reasons are as serious to her.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I grab one of our short little readers. I say, "Andrew, want to come sit
with me and read for a few minutes? You could do that since you don't
want to watch Barney and brother and sister do."
"Okay mom">>
I never invite Jayn to come and read. I do my own reading when I can
snatch a few minutes, and she asks me to read to her when she wants to
read. Or she asks me to put one of her games into the computer for her.
I'm sorry to sound harsh, but that whole conversation seems contrived.
Just because he didn't care for Barney (and I don't blame him for that)
doesn't mean that he didn't have some other activity in mind for
himself. Does he have the freedom to say "Not right now" (one of Jayn's
favorite phrases) and go about his business? Do you perceive doing
nothing in particular as vegetative idleness, or as someone involved
with their own important thoughts?
<<And we read the book. I help him where he needs it and then he does a
final re-read. That's it. No more workbooks or painful phonics lessons.
He isn't bothered by it and we get to "check off reading" for Dad, who
isn't all that interested in this experiment of mine but who tolerates
it
as long as he knows I'm at least trying to let reading and math fall
into
thier path to stumble over daily.>>
There are lots of threads in the archives and message boards about
reluctant spouses. How would you feel if you husband had a list of
particular housework tasks you had to accomplish and you had to check
them off each day? What happens when you don't get through the
designated tasks? I feel that any practice that sets up (1) one parent
as an authority that must be deferred to rather than a partner, (2) you
having to manipulate the information that your husband is getting about
the children's day, is a dangerous practice and contrary to the living
in freedom life of joy that Unschooling can be. Gee I hope you can help
your husband around. James, my dh, had a great time at the conference,
and met a spectrum of fathers along the path to acceptance. We also
found out just how much more he gets it than I realized about him
anyway.
What you have been doing doesn't sound like the benign "strewing" you
seem to desire it to be. It seems more active and always with ulterior
motives. Gosh that sounds sinister. Lots of threads about strewing in
the archives also.
BTW, I never assume that Jayn is feeling a certain way or is "not
bothered" about something, unless I ask her specifically and in a
non-leading way.
<<I've been waiting for them to learn about money. So yesterday I put
out
a toy catalog for them to find and they asked how much something cost. I
showed them where the price near the description was. They asked about
dollars and cents so we talked all about that. I got out the play money
and equivelent flash cards and they learned about that. I wrote it down
as math and they had something to show dad when he came home.>>
You lost faith - some kind of mental timetable you are still holding on
to made you lose patience with the process, so you had to take action.
Jayn calls the toy catalogues that come her "magazines". I don't even
look at them, just pass them to her. She gets so excited by new things,
and sometimes is disgusted when all they do is repeat the items in the
last catalogue. She sometimes asks about prices. Sometimes I have to
tell her things are too expensive for us to afford right now.
<<If they hadn't asked about cost, and just wanted to look at the toys,
it
would have been fine. I would have though looked for another place to
"drop" math into thier path. If he hadn't wanted to sit and read, I
would
have written post-it notes around the house or something, for him to
find, and get practice that way.
That's wrong? Please explain.>>
It's not wrong, so much as not Unschooling. It is still your need to
look like something got done, your priorities, your either conscious or
unconscious need to keep up and take responsibility for their EDUCATION
and PROGRESS, instead of allowing them to be responsible for their own
learning. It is still separating "life" from "educational activities",
with the attendant belief that educational activities are "better" than
the others, and that a day without (insert subject here) is an
incomplete day. If it is easier for you, try imagining that every thing
is educational. Personally I like to think that nothing has to be.
The real problem is what you and your children are missing out on with
all this "dropping of math into their path" - which is the excitement
and joy of spontaneously finding the math both on and off the path and
running to show you what they found; the fulfillment of choosing and
knowing it is a real choice to read/do something - how do you know that
your son was not on the point of making a request to you to do some
reading? You don't have to "practice" reading - you just read stuff that
is interesting to you; you don't have to "practice" math if you have
real internal reasons for doing it. Jayn sometimes gets a bug about
measuring stuff with her little retractable measuring tape. Why? I don't
know, but her reasons are as serious to her.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<I also had that play money sitting
around as part of my math curriculum from last year and wanted to have
them at least *touch* it sometime in childhood. ;-) >>
Leave it in their toy box. One of the big stumbling blocks that some
people have found, to judge by postings to the list, is the idea that
they don't want to waste the money they already spent on curriculum or
other educational materials (esp. husbands ;) ). Others have found that
by just leaving the stuff available, it gets used in ways imaginatively
beyond the originators' intentions.
<<As for trips to the
grocery store, they are more an example of "speed shopping" with three
small kids than lessons in math. :-( >>
Don't be unhappy that you have avoided a "lesson" in math - rejoice that
you are living life instead. You won't get any kudos here by keeping the
idea that activities have to be seen as lessons just because the people
involved are children.
<<He wants to be on equal footing with his peers, all of whom can read
well. He'd like to get rid of the icky feeling when he says, "I'm just
not good at books I guess". >>
I feel so sorry for him feeling himself less than others. This is such a
"school damage" type of statement. I wonder if it would help him to hear
stories about other Unschoolers who have been later readers, but are now
reading fine. Where is he getting this sweeping generalization about
books? If Jayn started saying negative things about herself, I would
have a look at her companions, and hang around nearby to eavesdrop
without shame on their conversations. Jayn is almost 4.
<<He'd like to be able to use his measure tape,
get his building materials at Home Depot, and pay for the stuff. He's
motivated to be independant and has realized that reading is necessary.
He is *not* wanting to sit and write for longer than one sentence or
work
from a reading curriculum. He wants it with as little effort as possible
and I'm trying to help him acheive that.>>
I like to do things with as little effort as possible too. The choices
are not between the extremes of workbooks and curriculum, and no help at
all, as I think you know.
It occurs to me that he may not be aware of the extent of his own
reading if he sees "real" reading ability as only books or worksheets as
compared to instructions for building projects, product labels and
catalogues. Some other parents on the list have found it salutary to
point out to their doubting kids when they are successfully reading.
Jayn always asks the cashier at the store, "How much is that?" and
enjoys handing them the credit card, and receiving the receipt. She is
very disappointed that she is not allowed to do the signing.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
around as part of my math curriculum from last year and wanted to have
them at least *touch* it sometime in childhood. ;-) >>
Leave it in their toy box. One of the big stumbling blocks that some
people have found, to judge by postings to the list, is the idea that
they don't want to waste the money they already spent on curriculum or
other educational materials (esp. husbands ;) ). Others have found that
by just leaving the stuff available, it gets used in ways imaginatively
beyond the originators' intentions.
<<As for trips to the
grocery store, they are more an example of "speed shopping" with three
small kids than lessons in math. :-( >>
Don't be unhappy that you have avoided a "lesson" in math - rejoice that
you are living life instead. You won't get any kudos here by keeping the
idea that activities have to be seen as lessons just because the people
involved are children.
<<He wants to be on equal footing with his peers, all of whom can read
well. He'd like to get rid of the icky feeling when he says, "I'm just
not good at books I guess". >>
I feel so sorry for him feeling himself less than others. This is such a
"school damage" type of statement. I wonder if it would help him to hear
stories about other Unschoolers who have been later readers, but are now
reading fine. Where is he getting this sweeping generalization about
books? If Jayn started saying negative things about herself, I would
have a look at her companions, and hang around nearby to eavesdrop
without shame on their conversations. Jayn is almost 4.
<<He'd like to be able to use his measure tape,
get his building materials at Home Depot, and pay for the stuff. He's
motivated to be independant and has realized that reading is necessary.
He is *not* wanting to sit and write for longer than one sentence or
work
from a reading curriculum. He wants it with as little effort as possible
and I'm trying to help him acheive that.>>
I like to do things with as little effort as possible too. The choices
are not between the extremes of workbooks and curriculum, and no help at
all, as I think you know.
It occurs to me that he may not be aware of the extent of his own
reading if he sees "real" reading ability as only books or worksheets as
compared to instructions for building projects, product labels and
catalogues. Some other parents on the list have found it salutary to
point out to their doubting kids when they are successfully reading.
Jayn always asks the cashier at the store, "How much is that?" and
enjoys handing them the credit card, and receiving the receipt. She is
very disappointed that she is not allowed to do the signing.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
At 04:37 PM 10/2/2003, you wrote:
Tia in Canada
>Where are you in Florida? I know we have some members there.Ok, who's in that area? Anybody?
> >>
>
>Northeast. Tia in Fl
Tia in Canada
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/2/03 8:17:32 PM, leschke@... writes:
<< >Northeast. Tia in Fl
Ok, who's in that area? Anybody? >>
Florida geography is not strong in me, but here:
http://pensacolaunschoolers.com/
If that's too far, at least they might have ideas!
Sandra in New Mexico
<< >Northeast. Tia in Fl
Ok, who's in that area? Anybody? >>
Florida geography is not strong in me, but here:
http://pensacolaunschoolers.com/
If that's too far, at least they might have ideas!
Sandra in New Mexico
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/2/03 3:54:41 PM, sixredheads@... writes:
<< As for trips to the
grocery store, they are more an example of "speed shopping" with three
small kids than lessons in math. :-(>>
If you go when the store's not busy and make a leisurely trip, a store can be
as good as a museum. I used to put two kids in one cart and one in the
other, and we'd look at lots of things, and talk about where they came from or
whatever came up naturally. We had a good time at the store. My oldest was
five when the youngest was born, so I had three little ones for a long time.
I never treated going to the store as a math lesson, but they did learn a
lot, and discussions about why things are sorted/arranged as they are in the
store is fun too. Categories! Advertising strategies. Patterns/colors/sizes.
Sandra
<< As for trips to the
grocery store, they are more an example of "speed shopping" with three
small kids than lessons in math. :-(>>
If you go when the store's not busy and make a leisurely trip, a store can be
as good as a museum. I used to put two kids in one cart and one in the
other, and we'd look at lots of things, and talk about where they came from or
whatever came up naturally. We had a good time at the store. My oldest was
five when the youngest was born, so I had three little ones for a long time.
I never treated going to the store as a math lesson, but they did learn a
lot, and discussions about why things are sorted/arranged as they are in the
store is fun too. Categories! Advertising strategies. Patterns/colors/sizes.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/2/03 3:54:41 PM, sixredheads@... writes:
<< He'd like to get rid of the icky feeling when he says, "I'm just
not good at books I guess". >>
Once you know some people who aren't comparing and racing, it will help.
You could say "You will be someday. There's no hurry. People learn things
at different times and in different ways."
My kids read "late" in a way (because I didn't say "reading" until they were
reading REAL things, not baby-readers, not doing phonics pages, which school
calls reading but it isn't, really). But if one expressed concern, I'd ask
who they were thinking of (it was always one specific kid or another) and would
point out what they could do better than that child, and that there could come
a time when the other child would surpass them there.
They all read perfectly well.
Kirby didn't know the word "polygamy" when he glanced over at an article
about the northern Arizona fundamentalist Mormon town that's been in the news. He
said "What's poly...gram?" Keith and I looked at each other and shrugged.
Keith started saying "something written in several ways?" kinda guessing by
root meanings, and I said "Spell it."
We talked about "polygamy" just briefly and said when it's not religion based
or culture based, it's "multiple marriage," and he's known people in multiple
marriages. It wasn't news to him, just the word itself was new.
That happens a lot with my kids. Their understanding of the concepts and
ideas is way beyond their reading. Their aural (heard and understood) vocabulary
is larger than their visual vocabulary, so they have an easy time recognizing
words and sounding words out. They KNOW the words. In school it's often
the other way. Kids are sounding out words they've never had cause to hear
before, so they waste a lot of time looking things up and writing down and trying
to memorize definitions. If they learned more language before they tried to
read, reading would be EASY. And more useful and more sensible.
If you haven't already seen this collection of accounts of kids learning to
read naturally, here:
http://sandradodd.com/reading
<<He is *not* wanting to sit and write for longer than one sentence or work
from a reading curriculum. >>
Good for him. It's stupid.
<<He wants it with as little effort as possible
and I'm trying to help him acheive that. >>
Let it go entirely. Get him magazines about things he really likes. Buy him
CDs. He'll read the liner notes and lyrics eventually. Forward good
websites to him. Even if he just looks at the pictures at first, he'll pick up a
word here and there.
Sandra
<< He'd like to get rid of the icky feeling when he says, "I'm just
not good at books I guess". >>
Once you know some people who aren't comparing and racing, it will help.
You could say "You will be someday. There's no hurry. People learn things
at different times and in different ways."
My kids read "late" in a way (because I didn't say "reading" until they were
reading REAL things, not baby-readers, not doing phonics pages, which school
calls reading but it isn't, really). But if one expressed concern, I'd ask
who they were thinking of (it was always one specific kid or another) and would
point out what they could do better than that child, and that there could come
a time when the other child would surpass them there.
They all read perfectly well.
Kirby didn't know the word "polygamy" when he glanced over at an article
about the northern Arizona fundamentalist Mormon town that's been in the news. He
said "What's poly...gram?" Keith and I looked at each other and shrugged.
Keith started saying "something written in several ways?" kinda guessing by
root meanings, and I said "Spell it."
We talked about "polygamy" just briefly and said when it's not religion based
or culture based, it's "multiple marriage," and he's known people in multiple
marriages. It wasn't news to him, just the word itself was new.
That happens a lot with my kids. Their understanding of the concepts and
ideas is way beyond their reading. Their aural (heard and understood) vocabulary
is larger than their visual vocabulary, so they have an easy time recognizing
words and sounding words out. They KNOW the words. In school it's often
the other way. Kids are sounding out words they've never had cause to hear
before, so they waste a lot of time looking things up and writing down and trying
to memorize definitions. If they learned more language before they tried to
read, reading would be EASY. And more useful and more sensible.
If you haven't already seen this collection of accounts of kids learning to
read naturally, here:
http://sandradodd.com/reading
<<He is *not* wanting to sit and write for longer than one sentence or work
from a reading curriculum. >>
Good for him. It's stupid.
<<He wants it with as little effort as possible
and I'm trying to help him acheive that. >>
Let it go entirely. Get him magazines about things he really likes. Buy him
CDs. He'll read the liner notes and lyrics eventually. Forward good
websites to him. Even if he just looks at the pictures at first, he'll pick up a
word here and there.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/2/2003 8:46:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
sixredheads@... writes:
the Northeast?
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sixredheads@... writes:
> Where are you in Florida? I know we have some members there.I'm about as far Northeast as you can get....The Jacksonville area. Where in
the Northeast?
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<If you go when the store's not busy and make a leisurely trip, a store
can be
as good as a museum. I used to put two kids in one cart and one in the
other, and we'd look at lots of things, and talk about where they came
from or
whatever came up naturally. We had a good time at the store. My
oldest was
five when the youngest was born, so I had three little ones for a long
time.>>
I'm so pleased that my local store has just got in some of those
wonderful carts that are made like cars. Jayn is not so interested in
"driving" them anymore, but the actual seat part is so much bigger and
more comfortable than the seat part in regular shopping carts.
We just got back from a trip to the store actually (10pm) and it was
pretty nice and sparsely populated. We played a follow the leader game
that I don't usually have time for. Jayn has a number of friends amongst
the cashiers.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
can be
as good as a museum. I used to put two kids in one cart and one in the
other, and we'd look at lots of things, and talk about where they came
from or
whatever came up naturally. We had a good time at the store. My
oldest was
five when the youngest was born, so I had three little ones for a long
time.>>
I'm so pleased that my local store has just got in some of those
wonderful carts that are made like cars. Jayn is not so interested in
"driving" them anymore, but the actual seat part is so much bigger and
more comfortable than the seat part in regular shopping carts.
We just got back from a trip to the store actually (10pm) and it was
pretty nice and sparsely populated. We played a follow the leader game
that I don't usually have time for. Jayn has a number of friends amongst
the cashiers.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stepheny Cappel
Tia I am in NE Fl. Stepheny
----- Original Message -----
From: Tia Graham
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Maybe a silly line of thought....
Where are you in Florida? I know we have some members there.
>>
Northeast. Tia in Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Graham
<<Yeeaaaahhhhh....but it's bad to do that? Here's what it looks like:
I grab one of our short little readers. I say, "Andrew, want to come sit
with me and read for a few minutes? You could do that since you don't
want to watch Barney and brother and sister do."
"Okay mom">>
I never invite Jayn to come and read. I do my own reading when I can
snatch a few minutes, and she asks me to read to her when she wants to
read. Or she asks me to put one of her games into the computer for her.
I'm sorry to sound harsh, but that whole conversation seems contrived.
Just because he didn't care for Barney (and I don't blame him for that)
doesn't mean that he didn't have some other activity in mind for
himself. Does he have the freedom to say "Not right now" (one of Jayn's
favorite phrases) and go about his business? Do you perceive doing
nothing in particular as vegetative idleness, or as someone involved
with their own important thoughts?
came right before it about how mad he was that other people were using
the TV and how he had nothing to do. My offer to listen to him read is
something he enjoyes because it's rare one on one time with me. He had
no activity in mind for himself; yes, he has the freedom to say no, and I
have every respect for what "apparent idleness" can really mean...and I
try not to interfere. In fact, I started this thread because my kids
spend so *much* time in apparent idleness and child play that I was
wondering if it was normal.
<<How would you feel if you husband had a list of
particular housework tasks you had to accomplish and you had to check
them off each day? What happens when you don't get through the
designated tasks? >>
Hee hee, I don't go there ;-). He doesn't have an acutal list, but he
does have concerns that his kids get everything in childhood they need,
which to him is a good, empowering education. Most all of his
childrearing info comes through me, as he doesn't have time to sift
through books, websites, lists, conversations to weigh pros and cons. He
trusts alot to me but really, honestly he feels alot better about things
if I can say, "yes we read today". It bothers his son that he can't read
what he wants to; as a father, he's bothered his son is bothered, and is
motivated to allivate that.
<<What you have been doing doesn't sound like the benign "strewing" you
seem to desire it to be. It seems more active and always with ulterior
motives. >>
Where's the line between coersive strewing and creating a helpful
environment? I'm putting things in their path, offereing them options on
how to spend thier time, that may catch thier interest or it may not. I'm
not making them do anything they don't want to, and if my "bait" doesn't
catch, I move onto something else or leave them alone for awhile. I have
plenty enough to do in a day...it's not like I'm waiting around with a
"teachign trap" read to ensare the little guys....But I want them to
easily find things to be curious about and get answers. I'm not seeing
what's wrong with that?
Tia in Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I grab one of our short little readers. I say, "Andrew, want to come sit
with me and read for a few minutes? You could do that since you don't
want to watch Barney and brother and sister do."
"Okay mom">>
I never invite Jayn to come and read. I do my own reading when I can
snatch a few minutes, and she asks me to read to her when she wants to
read. Or she asks me to put one of her games into the computer for her.
I'm sorry to sound harsh, but that whole conversation seems contrived.
Just because he didn't care for Barney (and I don't blame him for that)
doesn't mean that he didn't have some other activity in mind for
himself. Does he have the freedom to say "Not right now" (one of Jayn's
favorite phrases) and go about his business? Do you perceive doing
nothing in particular as vegetative idleness, or as someone involved
with their own important thoughts?
>>>>If it was contrived, it's probably because I left off the whine fest that
came right before it about how mad he was that other people were using
the TV and how he had nothing to do. My offer to listen to him read is
something he enjoyes because it's rare one on one time with me. He had
no activity in mind for himself; yes, he has the freedom to say no, and I
have every respect for what "apparent idleness" can really mean...and I
try not to interfere. In fact, I started this thread because my kids
spend so *much* time in apparent idleness and child play that I was
wondering if it was normal.
<<How would you feel if you husband had a list of
particular housework tasks you had to accomplish and you had to check
them off each day? What happens when you don't get through the
designated tasks? >>
Hee hee, I don't go there ;-). He doesn't have an acutal list, but he
does have concerns that his kids get everything in childhood they need,
which to him is a good, empowering education. Most all of his
childrearing info comes through me, as he doesn't have time to sift
through books, websites, lists, conversations to weigh pros and cons. He
trusts alot to me but really, honestly he feels alot better about things
if I can say, "yes we read today". It bothers his son that he can't read
what he wants to; as a father, he's bothered his son is bothered, and is
motivated to allivate that.
<<What you have been doing doesn't sound like the benign "strewing" you
seem to desire it to be. It seems more active and always with ulterior
motives. >>
Where's the line between coersive strewing and creating a helpful
environment? I'm putting things in their path, offereing them options on
how to spend thier time, that may catch thier interest or it may not. I'm
not making them do anything they don't want to, and if my "bait" doesn't
catch, I move onto something else or leave them alone for awhile. I have
plenty enough to do in a day...it's not like I'm waiting around with a
"teachign trap" read to ensare the little guys....But I want them to
easily find things to be curious about and get answers. I'm not seeing
what's wrong with that?
Tia in Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
Sounds good to me, Tia.
I'm MORE direct with my youngest daughter - the poster child for
unschooling that she is. If something occurs to me that I think she
might be interested in - I just ask her straight out. No "strewing" -
even that is sort of devious and artificial, in a way - although a huge
step forward and a good thing for those who need to learn to create a
rich stimulating interesting unschooling environment and who need still
to figure out what does turn their kids on and what doesn't.
BUT - I have no schoolishness left in me anymore and she never had any.
She knows I'm just asking because it occurred to me she might be
interested and that I might have something to offer in that direction.
I'm not unschooling with the hope that she'll "cover" what she is
"supposed to cover" this year. I don't have some specific "material" in
mind. I'm just honestly thinking this is something she'd enjoy.
She's interested in lots of things - in fact, you never know what she
might be interested in, so I ask.
I ask her if she's interested in going to an art museum or a space
shuttle simulation activity, for example. Or - if she wants me to help
her find books about horse anatomy. Or if she wants to learn how to sew
or make a pie. I might say, "Is that something you want to learn more
about?"
I don't overload her - I don't worry if she's doing enough. I don't
"assess" her. I just enjoy her.
Lucky younger kids whose older siblings have already been the guinea
pigs and whose now-older parents are calm and confident, huh?
-pam
I'm MORE direct with my youngest daughter - the poster child for
unschooling that she is. If something occurs to me that I think she
might be interested in - I just ask her straight out. No "strewing" -
even that is sort of devious and artificial, in a way - although a huge
step forward and a good thing for those who need to learn to create a
rich stimulating interesting unschooling environment and who need still
to figure out what does turn their kids on and what doesn't.
BUT - I have no schoolishness left in me anymore and she never had any.
She knows I'm just asking because it occurred to me she might be
interested and that I might have something to offer in that direction.
I'm not unschooling with the hope that she'll "cover" what she is
"supposed to cover" this year. I don't have some specific "material" in
mind. I'm just honestly thinking this is something she'd enjoy.
She's interested in lots of things - in fact, you never know what she
might be interested in, so I ask.
I ask her if she's interested in going to an art museum or a space
shuttle simulation activity, for example. Or - if she wants me to help
her find books about horse anatomy. Or if she wants to learn how to sew
or make a pie. I might say, "Is that something you want to learn more
about?"
I don't overload her - I don't worry if she's doing enough. I don't
"assess" her. I just enjoy her.
Lucky younger kids whose older siblings have already been the guinea
pigs and whose now-older parents are calm and confident, huh?
-pam
On Friday, October 3, 2003, at 01:37 PM, Tia Graham wrote:
> Where's the line between coersive strewing and creating a helpful
> environment? I'm putting things in their path, offereing them options
> on
> how to spend thier time, that may catch thier interest or it may not.
> I'm
> not making them do anything they don't want to, and if my "bait"
> doesn't
> catch, I move onto something else or leave them alone for awhile. I
> have
> plenty enough to do in a day...it's not like I'm waiting around with a
> "teachign trap" read to ensare the little guys....But I want them to
> easily find things to be curious about and get answers. I'm not seeing
> what's wrong with that?