Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Digest Number 4065
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/1/2003 6:37:47 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
domesic-type partnerships represented, all races represented. We've learned there is a
key in forming a group and still operate as individual "families".
I don't ask for any information except a waiver form to protect from
liabilities (name/address/emergency contact) that is signed 1 time and good for any
and all FIELD TRIPS!!! the family desires to participates in.
We've laughed, cried, had some excellent conversation and enjoyed exploring
the world.
Yes, I agree there is a very large group of "Christian Homeschoolers" which
unschoolers are not aware of. As far as WHO is causing the rift?? I don't
think this is the issue. Both sides have not been "nice little' boys and girls"
and no one party is innocent.
<I
But
people should be aware that fundamentalist Christian Homeschoolers exist and
what their beliefs are and what their goals for homeschooling are because
they are a large politically active group. The legislation they may push for
-- that may on the surface seem to be good -- could hamper how we as
unschoolers can homeschool.
On the "Jesus Christ" point, many religions believe he was a Son of God, but
many do not believe He was God's Son. Again, both of these terms "Son of God"
and "God's Son" have several different meanings in different religions.
Than, the person of "God" has several meanings also, in many religions.
The bottom line is "sin" is a term used in religion. It is not an
educational methodology, such as "unschooling is sin".
I really believe that the "testing and assessments" legistlation is not the
core of Fundamentalist Christians. Most of us, really would not want the
govt's hand in any of our educational choices. We've steered away from public
schools and govt assistance programs. We've seen our kids grow through their
educational endeavors and really don't need Uncle Sam's help.
In my personal opinion, the large majority of persons who want "tests, ect"
are ex-professional teachers who have taught in an actual "school" environment,
such as a public school or a private school, or has gone through "teaching
college" and earned teaching credentials to actually "teach". It's the "you
need to be trained" mindset. I don't agree that the "blame" is to be placed in a
religious group connotation.
I've actually been the member of a "secular" group. I was banned from the
group for this reason:
"I liked you at first, you really enjoy unschooling. But we want more
structure in our group, and you don't seem to input into the planning, 'school at
home' group activities."
Spc in Mo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> It seems you're saying that those of us who aren't fundamentalistIn our organization we have absolutely all faiths represented, all
> Christians
> are the ones who are desiring the separation from the Christian groups and
> we're causing the rifts.
>
> Perhaps it's different in your little pocket of Missouri. But you also say
> you're a Christian which is perhaps like a white person commenting on the
> state of race relations. Does your group have Pagans and Buddhists and
> families with same sex partners and Asians and Hispanics and African
> Americans? And what do they honestly say about how included they feel?
>
>
domesic-type partnerships represented, all races represented. We've learned there is a
key in forming a group and still operate as individual "families".
I don't ask for any information except a waiver form to protect from
liabilities (name/address/emergency contact) that is signed 1 time and good for any
and all FIELD TRIPS!!! the family desires to participates in.
We've laughed, cried, had some excellent conversation and enjoyed exploring
the world.
Yes, I agree there is a very large group of "Christian Homeschoolers" which
unschoolers are not aware of. As far as WHO is causing the rift?? I don't
think this is the issue. Both sides have not been "nice little' boys and girls"
and no one party is innocent.
<I
But
people should be aware that fundamentalist Christian Homeschoolers exist and
what their beliefs are and what their goals for homeschooling are because
they are a large politically active group. The legislation they may push for
-- that may on the surface seem to be good -- could hamper how we as
unschoolers can homeschool.
On the "Jesus Christ" point, many religions believe he was a Son of God, but
many do not believe He was God's Son. Again, both of these terms "Son of God"
and "God's Son" have several different meanings in different religions.
Than, the person of "God" has several meanings also, in many religions.
The bottom line is "sin" is a term used in religion. It is not an
educational methodology, such as "unschooling is sin".
I really believe that the "testing and assessments" legistlation is not the
core of Fundamentalist Christians. Most of us, really would not want the
govt's hand in any of our educational choices. We've steered away from public
schools and govt assistance programs. We've seen our kids grow through their
educational endeavors and really don't need Uncle Sam's help.
In my personal opinion, the large majority of persons who want "tests, ect"
are ex-professional teachers who have taught in an actual "school" environment,
such as a public school or a private school, or has gone through "teaching
college" and earned teaching credentials to actually "teach". It's the "you
need to be trained" mindset. I don't agree that the "blame" is to be placed in a
religious group connotation.
I've actually been the member of a "secular" group. I was banned from the
group for this reason:
"I liked you at first, you really enjoy unschooling. But we want more
structure in our group, and you don't seem to input into the planning, 'school at
home' group activities."
Spc in Mo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/1/03 9:39:13 AM, spcparents@... writes:
<<I've actually been the member of a "secular" group. >>
What do you think "secular" means?
I'm guessing because you wrote this, that your current group is not "secular."
<< In our organization we have absolutely all faiths represented, all
domesic-type partnerships represented, all races represented. >>
ALL! Wow.
All.
That's pretty good!
<<Yes, I agree there is a very large group of "Christian Homeschoolers" which
unschoolers are not aware of. As far as WHO is causing the rift?? I don't
think this is the issue. Both sides have not been "nice little' boys and
girls"
and no one party is innocent.>>
You've ignored what Joyce wrote, so I'm assuming you would ignore what I
might write too.
<<The bottom line is "sin" is a term used in religion. It is not an
educational methodology, such as "unschooling is sin".>>
What do you mean?
<<I really believe that the "testing and assessments" legistlation is not the
core of Fundamentalist Christians. >>
You didn't read what Joyce wrote, or maybe read it and misunderstood it.
<<<<They recognize that tests or the like -- since they know they can get
their kids to do well on tests -- will keep the government from looking into what
they're doing.>>>>
The "what they're doing" is coaching their children well on enough math and
vocabulary to pass the tests with high scores. They are NOT teaching history
or science as the state would like for them to do. They're teaching
revisionist and particularly written-for-Christians history and science. Because
their test scores are high, they don't figure anyone will question what else
they're teaching their kids.
<<<<That is both reality and their right to do so. And people should be aware
of
that reality or the opinions they express about homeschooling in general --
often from an unschooling point of view -- can be very very wrong.>>>>
I think what Joyce meant by this is that Homeschoolers should know that when
they speak of homeschoolers in general, if they are unaware of the extreme
behaviors and beliefs of the Christian Homeschooling Movement, their statements
are likely to be incorrect.
This is about where this discussion began.
I said unschoolers need to be aware that those groups exist. Otherwise, if a
reporter (for example, or could be a politician or anyone) says "I understand
that homeschoolers are keeping their children isolated," and if a
homeschooler says "WHAT!? That's ridiculous and couldn't be further from the truth,"
that homeschooler has just made a very incorrect statement. The best way to
respond would be to say "Some do, but we don't, and the families we know are out
here, there, (wherever)."
It's worth knowing.
Whether we agree that it's good, or whether some want to blame unschoolers
for a "rift" with separatist homeschoolers, each person reading this should look
into that information for herself, or himself, OR if someone doesn't want to
know, then just be aware that there is something big out there you don't know,
and don't defend someone or something without even looking at it.
<<In my personal opinion, the large majority of persons who want "tests, ect"
are ex-professional teachers who have taught in an actual "school"
environment,
such as a public school or a private school, or has gone through "teaching
college" and earned teaching credentials to actually "teach". It's the "you
need to be trained" mindset. I don't agree that the "blame" is to be placed
in a
religious group connotation.>>
This is not a matter for personal opinion.
Read what HSLDA thinks about tests and measures.
<<the large majority of persons who want "tests, ect"
are ex-professional teachers who have taught in an actual "school"
environment,
such as a public school or a private school, or has gone through "teaching
college" and earned teaching credentials to actually "teach".>>
"The large majority"? You're using numeric language with no numbers to back
you up.
There are a dozen or twenty ex teachers on this list, a few current teachers
at college level, and they're not testing their kids. I earned "teaching
credentals to actually 'teach'" and I know the damage testing does.
Sandra
<<I've actually been the member of a "secular" group. >>
What do you think "secular" means?
I'm guessing because you wrote this, that your current group is not "secular."
<< In our organization we have absolutely all faiths represented, all
domesic-type partnerships represented, all races represented. >>
ALL! Wow.
All.
That's pretty good!
<<Yes, I agree there is a very large group of "Christian Homeschoolers" which
unschoolers are not aware of. As far as WHO is causing the rift?? I don't
think this is the issue. Both sides have not been "nice little' boys and
girls"
and no one party is innocent.>>
You've ignored what Joyce wrote, so I'm assuming you would ignore what I
might write too.
<<The bottom line is "sin" is a term used in religion. It is not an
educational methodology, such as "unschooling is sin".>>
What do you mean?
<<I really believe that the "testing and assessments" legistlation is not the
core of Fundamentalist Christians. >>
You didn't read what Joyce wrote, or maybe read it and misunderstood it.
<<<<They recognize that tests or the like -- since they know they can get
their kids to do well on tests -- will keep the government from looking into what
they're doing.>>>>
The "what they're doing" is coaching their children well on enough math and
vocabulary to pass the tests with high scores. They are NOT teaching history
or science as the state would like for them to do. They're teaching
revisionist and particularly written-for-Christians history and science. Because
their test scores are high, they don't figure anyone will question what else
they're teaching their kids.
<<<<That is both reality and their right to do so. And people should be aware
of
that reality or the opinions they express about homeschooling in general --
often from an unschooling point of view -- can be very very wrong.>>>>
I think what Joyce meant by this is that Homeschoolers should know that when
they speak of homeschoolers in general, if they are unaware of the extreme
behaviors and beliefs of the Christian Homeschooling Movement, their statements
are likely to be incorrect.
This is about where this discussion began.
I said unschoolers need to be aware that those groups exist. Otherwise, if a
reporter (for example, or could be a politician or anyone) says "I understand
that homeschoolers are keeping their children isolated," and if a
homeschooler says "WHAT!? That's ridiculous and couldn't be further from the truth,"
that homeschooler has just made a very incorrect statement. The best way to
respond would be to say "Some do, but we don't, and the families we know are out
here, there, (wherever)."
It's worth knowing.
Whether we agree that it's good, or whether some want to blame unschoolers
for a "rift" with separatist homeschoolers, each person reading this should look
into that information for herself, or himself, OR if someone doesn't want to
know, then just be aware that there is something big out there you don't know,
and don't defend someone or something without even looking at it.
<<In my personal opinion, the large majority of persons who want "tests, ect"
are ex-professional teachers who have taught in an actual "school"
environment,
such as a public school or a private school, or has gone through "teaching
college" and earned teaching credentials to actually "teach". It's the "you
need to be trained" mindset. I don't agree that the "blame" is to be placed
in a
religious group connotation.>>
This is not a matter for personal opinion.
Read what HSLDA thinks about tests and measures.
<<the large majority of persons who want "tests, ect"
are ex-professional teachers who have taught in an actual "school"
environment,
such as a public school or a private school, or has gone through "teaching
college" and earned teaching credentials to actually "teach".>>
"The large majority"? You're using numeric language with no numbers to back
you up.
There are a dozen or twenty ex teachers on this list, a few current teachers
at college level, and they're not testing their kids. I earned "teaching
credentals to actually 'teach'" and I know the damage testing does.
Sandra
pam sorooshian
On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 08:25 AM, spcparents@... wrote:
ready and willing to embrace alternative ways - they KNOW what a wasted
effort preparing for tests is.
-pam
> In my personal opinion, the large majority of persons who want "tests,In my experience it is the opposite. Those who have taught are often
> ect"
> are ex-professional teachers who have taught in an actual "school"
> environment,
> such as a public school or a private school, or has gone through
> "teaching
> college" and earned teaching credentials to actually "teach".
ready and willing to embrace alternative ways - they KNOW what a wasted
effort preparing for tests is.
-pam