Re: Labeling types of Homeschoolers
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/30/2003 9:45:25 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
example where it helps.
My son has two lesbian moms, and we are Unitarian Universalists, and
unschoolers. Oh, and his dad is a Pagan. When we started homeschooling we were looking
for support groups...and homeschooling friends. We wandered into a couple of
Christian homeschooling groups, not knowing better. I realized that these
weren't the groups for us quickly, luckily. But not before getting an earful of
the danger of not having a good curriculum.
I didn't come out about the other stuff. The main thing I wanted to be
careful of was never having my little son having to hear how eveil and hell-bound
his family was. This was a safety issue.
Holly, there are homeschoolers with very different philosophies, and while
there are some religiously fundamental Christian homeschoolers who are not rigid
academically, and are very tolerant people, these groups tend to NOT be that.
The Bob Jones folks ARE homophobic (and racist, actually), generally. Mostly,
they DO think unschooling is wrong, if not sinful.
So, for me, the issue is descriptive rather than stereotypical. And while I
am happy to talk to anyone with any perspective as an individual, I don't want
to wander into large groups of people who think I'm going to hell because my
14-year relationship is sinful.
Kathryn, who is thinking about getting a sex-change so she can be a straight
white male, because the whole oppression thing is getting really old
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
>Holly, I absolutely understand what you mean, and I have to give you an
> And by doing so, an "us or them" mentality is maintained. "They" are
> causing "us" grief in their usual <fill in the blank> way. Overlooking
> the fact that many people attending the Bob Jones conference may be
> unschoolers in disguise, or may be school at homers because they haven't
> been able to talk to unschoolers because they've been labelled
> fundamentalist intolerant Christians.
>
> Labels count. I'm sure a wide variety of people on this list ended up
> taking their kids out of school because of the way their kids were
> labeled. That can be a positive result of labelling--but I don't think
> there's many positive results.
>
>
example where it helps.
My son has two lesbian moms, and we are Unitarian Universalists, and
unschoolers. Oh, and his dad is a Pagan. When we started homeschooling we were looking
for support groups...and homeschooling friends. We wandered into a couple of
Christian homeschooling groups, not knowing better. I realized that these
weren't the groups for us quickly, luckily. But not before getting an earful of
the danger of not having a good curriculum.
I didn't come out about the other stuff. The main thing I wanted to be
careful of was never having my little son having to hear how eveil and hell-bound
his family was. This was a safety issue.
Holly, there are homeschoolers with very different philosophies, and while
there are some religiously fundamental Christian homeschoolers who are not rigid
academically, and are very tolerant people, these groups tend to NOT be that.
The Bob Jones folks ARE homophobic (and racist, actually), generally. Mostly,
they DO think unschooling is wrong, if not sinful.
So, for me, the issue is descriptive rather than stereotypical. And while I
am happy to talk to anyone with any perspective as an individual, I don't want
to wander into large groups of people who think I'm going to hell because my
14-year relationship is sinful.
Kathryn, who is thinking about getting a sex-change so she can be a straight
white male, because the whole oppression thing is getting really old
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected],
KathrynJB@a... wrote:
said? Or did you fear he would be physically assaulted?
The term homophobic is a pejorative term and one they don't
believe applies to them. Fundamentalists aren't afraid of
homosexuality. They think it is sinful, immoral behavior. That
doesn't mean they are "homophobic" but that they have a
religious reason for opposing it. And a large number feel that
they are offering compassion to elucidate that position and to
offer recovery programs to heal those in the lifestyle. They think
they are being loving.
I'm not saying that I agree with their position, btw. But I think it's
similar to the way Pro-lifers will call Pro-choicers--pro-abortion or
baby killers. That's not how the pro-choice side sees itself.
Likewise, the Pro-life community isn't "anti-women" but sees
itself as protecting the unborn.
We have to take care in what labels we use or we
misunderstand the other side.
There certainly are those in the Chrisitan community who are
afraid of homosexuality and who are intolerant and cruel to
homosexuals. But there are also those who simply hold the
belief that the lifestyle is wrong (just as many here would hold
that the "school at home" method of education is wrong...) based
on their belief system.
Mostly,
unschooling is sinful). In fact, the more fundamentalist, the more
unschooling these families become but for entirely different
reasons. It's odd actually. The biggest proponents of the
unschooling lifestyle that I encountered before this group were
hardcore fundamentalist Christians. The educational system is
suspect to them and they put high value on living a life of actual
learning rather than school so that each peson can become fully
the peson God intended rather than what the system intends.
I know there are lots of conservative Christians who don't
unschool, don't agree with unschooling and don't understand
unschooling. But I have yet to find anyone who says it is "sinful."
Has someone said that to you specifically?
interpretation of those encounters that forms your "descriptions"
which are actually interpretations. Just like they will form their
descriptions of you and homosexuals based on their encounters
and interpretations.
I think we owe it to people to try to understand the ideas behind
these viewpoints and why they believe what they hold to be true
makes sense. Most people see themselves as good, consistent
and loving (on all sides of each debate). Why do people think
that way about themselves when other groups see them as
hostile, undermining and cruel? This kind of thinking has to
occur for each side of the debate (whatever the issue is).
And while I
the fundamentalists would feel very uncomfortable in
unschooling groups of UU members too. :) I visited a UU church
not too long ago and it was clear to me right away that most of
my friends would have felt totally uncomfortable there, despite
the fact that everyone was friendly. I enjoyed it though.
I'm sorry about how old this gets. I can imagine it does. The time
of homosexual civil rights being taken as seriously as women's
rights or civil rights for blacks is still ahead of us, I'm afraid.
Sexuality is so core to who we are that it seems we can't treat it
with the same dispassionate distance that it deserves.
My main point in this post is to just alert you to the fact that those
who hold the "intolerant" positions don't believe they are being
unloving or fearful but that they see themselves as preserving
something sacred. Unfortunately, our humanity often interferes
and the results are cruelty. I've suffered under some of the
fundamentalist tendency to exclude and judge this past year
(and lost 14 lbs in the process!) so I'm not trying to diminish your
experience, just to enlighten it a bit. It helps me to do so.
Julie B
KathrynJB@a... wrote:
>give you an
> Holly, I absolutely understand what you mean, and I have to
> example where it helps.to be
>
>
> I didn't come out about the other stuff. The main thing I wanted
> careful of was never having my little son having to hear howeveil and hell-bound
> his family was. This was a safety issue.Safety in the sense that he might feel badly about what they
said? Or did you fear he would be physically assaulted?
>philosophies, and while
> Holly, there are homeschoolers with very different
> there are some religiously fundamental Christianhomeschoolers who are not rigid
> academically, and are very tolerant people, these groups tendto NOT be that.
> The Bob Jones folks ARE homophobic (and racist, actually),generally.
The term homophobic is a pejorative term and one they don't
believe applies to them. Fundamentalists aren't afraid of
homosexuality. They think it is sinful, immoral behavior. That
doesn't mean they are "homophobic" but that they have a
religious reason for opposing it. And a large number feel that
they are offering compassion to elucidate that position and to
offer recovery programs to heal those in the lifestyle. They think
they are being loving.
I'm not saying that I agree with their position, btw. But I think it's
similar to the way Pro-lifers will call Pro-choicers--pro-abortion or
baby killers. That's not how the pro-choice side sees itself.
Likewise, the Pro-life community isn't "anti-women" but sees
itself as protecting the unborn.
We have to take care in what labels we use or we
misunderstand the other side.
There certainly are those in the Chrisitan community who are
afraid of homosexuality and who are intolerant and cruel to
homosexuals. But there are also those who simply hold the
belief that the lifestyle is wrong (just as many here would hold
that the "school at home" method of education is wrong...) based
on their belief system.
Mostly,
> they DO think unschooling is wrong, if not sinful.I am in these circles and I haven't encountered that attitude (that
unschooling is sinful). In fact, the more fundamentalist, the more
unschooling these families become but for entirely different
reasons. It's odd actually. The biggest proponents of the
unschooling lifestyle that I encountered before this group were
hardcore fundamentalist Christians. The educational system is
suspect to them and they put high value on living a life of actual
learning rather than school so that each peson can become fully
the peson God intended rather than what the system intends.
I know there are lots of conservative Christians who don't
unschool, don't agree with unschooling and don't understand
unschooling. But I have yet to find anyone who says it is "sinful."
Has someone said that to you specifically?
>But it's your description based on your encounters and
> So, for me, the issue is descriptive rather than stereotypical.
interpretation of those encounters that forms your "descriptions"
which are actually interpretations. Just like they will form their
descriptions of you and homosexuals based on their encounters
and interpretations.
I think we owe it to people to try to understand the ideas behind
these viewpoints and why they believe what they hold to be true
makes sense. Most people see themselves as good, consistent
and loving (on all sides of each debate). Why do people think
that way about themselves when other groups see them as
hostile, undermining and cruel? This kind of thinking has to
occur for each side of the debate (whatever the issue is).
And while I
> am happy to talk to anyone with any perspective as anindividual, I don't want
> to wander into large groups of people who think I'm going tohell because my
> 14-year relationship is sinful.Certainly that's your choice. And it's a wise one. I think likewise
the fundamentalists would feel very uncomfortable in
unschooling groups of UU members too. :) I visited a UU church
not too long ago and it was clear to me right away that most of
my friends would have felt totally uncomfortable there, despite
the fact that everyone was friendly. I enjoyed it though.
>can be a straight
> Kathryn, who is thinking about getting a sex-change so she
> white male, because the whole oppression thing is gettingreally old
I'm sorry about how old this gets. I can imagine it does. The time
of homosexual civil rights being taken as seriously as women's
rights or civil rights for blacks is still ahead of us, I'm afraid.
Sexuality is so core to who we are that it seems we can't treat it
with the same dispassionate distance that it deserves.
My main point in this post is to just alert you to the fact that those
who hold the "intolerant" positions don't believe they are being
unloving or fearful but that they see themselves as preserving
something sacred. Unfortunately, our humanity often interferes
and the results are cruelty. I've suffered under some of the
fundamentalist tendency to exclude and judge this past year
(and lost 14 lbs in the process!) so I'm not trying to diminish your
experience, just to enlighten it a bit. It helps me to do so.
Julie B
primalmother
I'm taking art classes at the community college and over heard that
one of the students in my drawing class was going to give art
lessons for a group of homeschoolers. I said I'd like to take my
kids, so she gave me a number to call. I got the info. and took the
kids only to be slapped with a handbook and papers to sign saying
that I agree with various Christian fundamental beliefs. I couldn't
sign them, I'm a deist. Therefore, we didn't join and as soon as
the art lesson were over with we left. It's a shame that support
groups can't be just for home/unschoolers whatever their beliefs,
etc. and not have all this Christianity attached to them. Are they
supporting home/unschooling or their beliefs and their form of home
education?
Robin
<<We wandered into a couple of
Christian homeschooling groups, not knowing better. I realized that
these
weren't the groups for us quickly, luckily. But not before getting
an earful of
the danger of not having a good curriculum.>>
one of the students in my drawing class was going to give art
lessons for a group of homeschoolers. I said I'd like to take my
kids, so she gave me a number to call. I got the info. and took the
kids only to be slapped with a handbook and papers to sign saying
that I agree with various Christian fundamental beliefs. I couldn't
sign them, I'm a deist. Therefore, we didn't join and as soon as
the art lesson were over with we left. It's a shame that support
groups can't be just for home/unschoolers whatever their beliefs,
etc. and not have all this Christianity attached to them. Are they
supporting home/unschooling or their beliefs and their form of home
education?
Robin
<<We wandered into a couple of
Christian homeschooling groups, not knowing better. I realized that
these
weren't the groups for us quickly, luckily. But not before getting
an earful of
the danger of not having a good curriculum.>>
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected],
"primalmother" <Nest4Robin@w...> wrote:
Statements of faith are designed to keep people out. That is the
way I was excluded last year from an event (I'm a Christian but
not a narrow enough definition for this one SoF).
In looking at it backwards, they would ask, "Are you really only
interested in homeschooling or in raising children who grow up
to embrace your values and outlook on life?" That's what they
believe they are doingkeeping their children in contact with
like-minded families so that their values will be passed on.
Julie B
"primalmother" <Nest4Robin@w...> wrote:
> I'm taking art classes at the community college and over heardthat
> one of the students in my drawing class was going to give artmy
> lessons for a group of homeschoolers. I said I'd like to take
> kids, so she gave me a number to call. I got the info. and tookthe
> kids only to be slapped with a handbook and papers to signsaying
> that I agree with various Christian fundamental beliefs. Icouldn't
> sign them, I'm a deist. Therefore, we didn't join and as soonas
> the art lesson were over with we left. It's a shame that supportbeliefs,
> groups can't be just for home/unschoolers whatever their
> etc. and not have all this Christianity attached to them. Are theyhome
> supporting home/unschooling or their beliefs and their form of
> education?They are supporting their beliefs and not homeschooling first.
> Robin
Statements of faith are designed to keep people out. That is the
way I was excluded last year from an event (I'm a Christian but
not a narrow enough definition for this one SoF).
In looking at it backwards, they would ask, "Are you really only
interested in homeschooling or in raising children who grow up
to embrace your values and outlook on life?" That's what they
believe they are doingkeeping their children in contact with
like-minded families so that their values will be passed on.
Julie B
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/30/03 8:17:03 AM, KathrynJB@... writes:
<< Kathryn, who is thinking about getting a sex-change so she can be a
straight
white male, because the whole oppression thing is getting really old >>
Yeah, but you could say goodbye to any more scholarships or grants, and good
luck being promoted at work!
(some people even have prejudices about prejudices)
Sandra
<< Kathryn, who is thinking about getting a sex-change so she can be a
straight
white male, because the whole oppression thing is getting really old >>
Yeah, but you could say goodbye to any more scholarships or grants, and good
luck being promoted at work!
(some people even have prejudices about prejudices)
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/30/03 9:38:14 AM, julie@... writes:
<< But there are also those who simply hold the
belief that the lifestyle is wrong (just as many here would hold
that the "school at home" method of education is wrong...) based
on their belief system. >>
To term it "lifestyle" is a pejorative term. Benign-style, yet still
dismissive. I know you were quoting their rhetoric, though. If someone's urges and
interests are "wrong," he can at least avoid sin by being as asexual as
possible, and not participate in relationships.
<< The biggest proponents of the
unschooling lifestyle that I encountered before this group were
hardcore fundamentalist Christians. The educational system is
suspect to them and they put high value on living a life of actual
learning rather than school so that each peson can become fully
the peson God intended rather than what the system intends.>>
I've seen some of that too, but I wouldn't call it "unschooling lifestyle,"
since they're willing for natural learning to occur only within a closed system.
Their "learning from the real world" is a terrarium world, limited to
Christian influences, Christian literature, Christian results.
<<I know there are lots of conservative Christians who don't
unschool, don't agree with unschooling and don't understand
unschooling. But I have yet to find anyone who says it is "sinful." >>
Website quotes. Allowing children to "rule the roost" (and other
unflattering portrayals) is failure to take the reins and rule our children as God
commanded. Letting children make choices is sinful. Not requiring obedience is
sinful. Not teaching is sinful. Not raising children as Christians is sinful.
Being "human they believe what they hold to be true
makes sense.>>
I understand why they believe what they believe. I have several times
defended proselytizing, and explained to people who say "Why don't they just drop
it?" that those with a NEED to witness would consider it cruel to turn and not
even bother to try to tell another person that they were in danger in imminent
and eternal damnation.
<<Why do people think
that way about themselves when other groups see them as
hostile, undermining and cruel?>>
Because that's how people are, and always have been, and always will be.
<<Sexuality is so core to who we are that it seems we can't treat it
with the same dispassionate distance that it deserves.>>
Why would it not be central and core? Just the way people address you and
refer to you has to do with gender. The way people choose friends (or are
allowed to have friends visit) has to do with their sexual assignation. And it IS
"assignation." If a baby has visible male genitals, it's "a boy," and "he"
and wears blue. But if it's later discovered that otherwise he has female
biochemistry, he's chosen a bad lifestyle?
It's a problem, and can't be just "distanced" so easily by those so strongly
affected.
Sandra
<< But there are also those who simply hold the
belief that the lifestyle is wrong (just as many here would hold
that the "school at home" method of education is wrong...) based
on their belief system. >>
To term it "lifestyle" is a pejorative term. Benign-style, yet still
dismissive. I know you were quoting their rhetoric, though. If someone's urges and
interests are "wrong," he can at least avoid sin by being as asexual as
possible, and not participate in relationships.
<< The biggest proponents of the
unschooling lifestyle that I encountered before this group were
hardcore fundamentalist Christians. The educational system is
suspect to them and they put high value on living a life of actual
learning rather than school so that each peson can become fully
the peson God intended rather than what the system intends.>>
I've seen some of that too, but I wouldn't call it "unschooling lifestyle,"
since they're willing for natural learning to occur only within a closed system.
Their "learning from the real world" is a terrarium world, limited to
Christian influences, Christian literature, Christian results.
<<I know there are lots of conservative Christians who don't
unschool, don't agree with unschooling and don't understand
unschooling. But I have yet to find anyone who says it is "sinful." >>
Website quotes. Allowing children to "rule the roost" (and other
unflattering portrayals) is failure to take the reins and rule our children as God
commanded. Letting children make choices is sinful. Not requiring obedience is
sinful. Not teaching is sinful. Not raising children as Christians is sinful.
Being "human they believe what they hold to be true
makes sense.>>
I understand why they believe what they believe. I have several times
defended proselytizing, and explained to people who say "Why don't they just drop
it?" that those with a NEED to witness would consider it cruel to turn and not
even bother to try to tell another person that they were in danger in imminent
and eternal damnation.
<<Why do people think
that way about themselves when other groups see them as
hostile, undermining and cruel?>>
Because that's how people are, and always have been, and always will be.
<<Sexuality is so core to who we are that it seems we can't treat it
with the same dispassionate distance that it deserves.>>
Why would it not be central and core? Just the way people address you and
refer to you has to do with gender. The way people choose friends (or are
allowed to have friends visit) has to do with their sexual assignation. And it IS
"assignation." If a baby has visible male genitals, it's "a boy," and "he"
and wears blue. But if it's later discovered that otherwise he has female
biochemistry, he's chosen a bad lifestyle?
It's a problem, and can't be just "distanced" so easily by those so strongly
affected.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/30/03 10:32:58 AM, Nest4Robin@... writes:
<< It's a shame that support
groups can't be just for home/unschoolers whatever their beliefs,
etc. and not have all this Christianity attached to them. Are they
supporting home/unschooling or their beliefs and their form of home
education?
Robin
1. their beliefs
2. their form of home education.
That's it. They're not supporting hom/unschooling.
Sandra
<< It's a shame that support
groups can't be just for home/unschoolers whatever their beliefs,
etc. and not have all this Christianity attached to them. Are they
supporting home/unschooling or their beliefs and their form of home
education?
Robin
>>They're supporting
1. their beliefs
2. their form of home education.
That's it. They're not supporting hom/unschooling.
Sandra