Bronwen

> << Assuming that because you are shocked (or alot of people are shocked),
it
>
> must be that person's intention to shock, is faulty reasoning and a reason
>
> to justify judgment and "attitude" against the person- and in this case
>
> distain for the human body and its natural functions. >>
>


> You're saying nobody intends to shock?

No - I am saying "Assuming that because you are shocked (or alot of people
are shocked), it must be that person's intention to shock, is faulty
reasoning".

I imagine myself nursing my child, relaxed about it because maybe I feel
comfortable around the people I know- that this is my "place" and town, and
having the wife of my x-boyfriend come up to me and say that I should move
over there in that dark corner away from everyone- a response of, "shoot!
you nursed your kids too" hardly constitutes proof of antagonistic
intentions to shock old country folks not accustomed to nursing.

If a person feels a defensive desire to "shock people" with breast feeding,
it is because they are aware of the intense contradiction between our
culture and what is normal for human beings - and haven't worked through to
a positive way of expressing it.

> There are people here saying they know people who have purposefully been
> antagonistic about such things
> It's not disdain or attitude when it's true.

So if the person is "purposefully" being shocking, then we can think their
body is gross, and be justified in having an attitude against them?


> <<If a person responds defensively to a "helpful comment" (to find an
>
> "appropriate" place to nurse, or "this is Kinko's, a place of business,
and
>
> children should not be loud", or anything like that ) it is because they
>
> felt attacked.>>

>
> Some people like to feel martyrly or put upon.

true.

> By your summary judgment, it's impossible to suggest anything to anyone
> without attacking, or at least if they FEEL attacked, it's.... what? Not
their
> fault that they feel attacked?

I am saying that to give an adult a "helpful comment" about such things like
nursing in public, loud children, etc - um...lets just say- I can not
imagine
what that comment would sound and look like to be truly "helpful"- we all
live in the same society, assuming that you have some information that they
don't about common attitudes and then giving it to them is condescending and
shows faulty boundaries.

Having only jurisdiction over one's own self and feelings, the only possible
"helpful statement" I can think of is "*I* feel uncomfortable with you
nursing in this spot and would feel more comfortable if you moved"

Which of course, sounds like maybe *I* have distain for the human body,
which as my quoted posts suggests- it is because of our imprinting and
biases.

In other words, if someone feels uncomfortable with any aspect of the human
body and its functions- they should not blame the person showing the boob-
even if they ran into the middle of the room and tore off their shirt
screaming "LOOK at my Lactating BOobS!!!"

They should take it as an opportunity to be relived of yet another stifling,
revolting, puritan attitude and rejoice in the gift!

Bronwen

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In a message dated 9/18/03 11:51:21 PM, felesina@... writes:

<< If a person feels a defensive desire to "shock people" with breast feeding,

it is because they are aware of the intense contradiction between our

culture and what is normal for human beings - and haven't worked through to

a positive way of expressing it.

>>

I don't think you can summarize the motives of all people that way.

Some people are just obnoxious and like to get attention, negative or
positive.
Some people honestly LIKE disturbing other people.

I know some people like that. It's not that they haven't worked through
positive ways to express their awareness of intense contradictions.

<<So if the person is "purposefully" being shocking, then we can think their

body is gross, and be justified in having an attitude against them?>>

We can all think what we want.
I can be justified in thinking that their shock-value actions are affecting
attitudes of many other people toward others who are doing/being/expressing
similar actions/appearances as the shocker.

Someone who's seen a really obscene tatoo obscenely displayed might have a
worse attitude toward tattoos and tattooed people in general.

Someone who's had a motorcyclist cut him off in traffic and then flip him off
might be (justifiably?) less tolerant of other motorcyclists for some short
or long time after that.

-=-> By your summary judgment, it's impossible to suggest anything to anyone

> without attacking, or at least if they FEEL attacked, it's.... what? Not

their

> fault that they feel attacked?


-=-I am saying that to give an adult a "helpful comment" about such things
like

nursing in public, loud children, etc - um...lets just say- I can not

imagine

what that comment would sound and look like to be truly "helpful"- we all

live in the same society, assuming that you have some information that they

don't about common attitudes and then giving it to them is condescending and

shows faulty boundaries.-=-

What if you're the manager of the Kinko's, or it's your house, or you're a
deacon in a church or an usher at a wedding? Still faulty boundaries?

What if (as happened to me) the organizer of an event has asked you to speak
to someone you know?

There ARE realities and sometimes there are honest and real reasons to try to
persuade people to act differently in a particular time or place.

Sandra

Bronwen

SANDRA:
>>Some people are just obnoxious and like to get attention, negative or
positive. Some people honestly LIKE disturbing other people.

>I know some people like that. It's not that they haven't worked through
>positive ways to express their awareness of intense contradictions.

ME:
So some mothers, the kind that "like to disturb", use the breastfeeding
relationship and their child primarily to gain attention? This is a pretty
harsh judgment (horrible imo, and why I am writing these posts).

Breastfeeding is about the child- it involves breasts nipples mouths skin
hands bodies. Do you think for one second that a child would prefer a fully
clothed covered up mother, only the nipple out- himself to be fully clothed,
diapered, nike shoes and all- to an entirely naked mother and baby?
Wouldn't a baby prefer to cuddle and pet the other breast, the mom's
stomach, her face, her skin? The concession is already so much- the
experience is already sacrificed for both the mother and child in public
(and for many women, in private too).

If we asked the babies, would they want discretion? Would they want their
teddy bear instead? no one seems to complain when a kid wants his pacifier
and teddy. Why are breasts uglier than silky blankets and strollers?
Breastfeeding shouldn't have the power to shock- any more than bottles do-
if a mother gets negative attention for nursing- she shouldn't. How about
we leave breastfeeding alone, and if we want to figure out if someone is
trying to "disturb others", pick something else.

ME:
<<So if the person is "purposefully" being shocking, then we can think their
body is gross, and be justified in having an attitude against them?>>

SANDRA:
We can all think what we want.
I can be justified in thinking that their shock-value actions are affecting
attitudes of many other people toward others who are doing/being/expressing
similar actions/appearances as the shocker.

Someone who's seen a really obscene tatoo obscenely displayed might have a
worse attitude toward tattoos and tattooed people in general.

Someone who's had a motorcyclist cut him off in traffic and then flip him
off might be (justifiably?) less tolerant of other motorcyclists for some
short or long time after that.

ME:
I use the word "justifiable" as meaning a true reason- as in "justice". All
people have good and understandable reasons for doing and thinking
everything (my belief). But not all reasons are "justifible"-

By your argument, if the person who cut us off in traffic where of a certain
race- we
would be justified in being less tolerant of that race for a "short or
long time". While it is understandable, it is not justifiable. And we can
use our feelings in situations like this to grow as people.

If we feel offended in any way by breastfeeding, we can use it to grow in
our understanding- till we are not offended.

ME:-=-I am saying that to give an adult a "helpful comment" about such
things like nursing in public, loud children, etc - um...lets just say- I
can not imagine what that comment would sound and look like to be truly
"helpful"-
we all live in the same society, assuming that you have some information
that they
don't about common attitudes and then giving it to them is condescending and
shows faulty boundaries.-=-

SANDRA:
What if you're the manager of the Kinko's, or it's your house, or you're a
deacon in a church or an usher at a wedding? Still faulty boundaries?

What if (as happened to me) the organizer of an event has asked you to speak
to someone you know?

ME:
If someone asked me to go tell a breastfeeding woman to move- the first
thing I would do is feel a pain in my heart that I was face to face with a
negative attitude about breastfeeding. I would express this, and ask who
complained. I would then go to talk to that person (maybe it was the person
who came to me) to try to smooth things out, maybe give some information
about breastfeeding while also listening to their understandably negative
feelings. I would then make it a point to go and show support to the woman,
maybe sit by her, talk to her. I would do this because I was asked to get
involved. I would be greatful for the opportunity.

This would be the same if I were the manager of Kinko's etc..and people felt
I had responsibility for fixing their problems, and complained to me about a
nursing mother. Except if I was the manager of kinkos- I might be prompted
to put up a sign on the front that said, "nursing mothers welcome".

SANDRA:
There ARE realities and sometimes there are honest and real reasons to try
to persuade people to act differently in a particular time or place.

ME:
Right. For me, however, there is never a situation where I would want to go
against what I think is right to appease someone's sensibilities. I would
never
tell a woman to stop or move while breastfeeding because someone asked me
to, even if I was "boss"- even if she was flashing alot of skin- and even if
she MEANT to.

Of all babies six months old- only 6% are nursing in this country- that is
quite a minority.

Let us support them.

Maybe we can avoid trying to figure out if a mom is trying to "get
attention" with nursing.

Maybe we can enjoy the fact that when you see a mother and child nursing you
are whitness to a very special, important, and short time in a child's life.

that is all I want to say,
Bronwen