Judie C. Rall

In my vocabulary "chores"
> are our responsibilities around the house, whether they be chores for my
> husband, myself, or my children.

After the discussion on this list about responsibilities, and who
should clean and pick up, my husband and I had a discussion about
this, as well as principles vs. rules.

We agreed that it is nobody's responsibility to do any chore unless
they want to. That mean him, me and the kids. Nobody has to clean
or pick up anything unless they want to. We have agreed that you
can't force responsibility on someone else, they have to freely want
that responsibility.

I got married because I wanted to keep house, so I chose that. My
kids didn't. They don't have the same desire to keep house that I
do.

Since we agreed that nobody HAS to do any chores, including me,
things have been getting done pretty easily around here, and without
much fuss. Yesterday my older son decided to clean the bathroom and
the catbox without me asking. Today he mowed our back lawn, which
was getting pretty tall. I never asked him to do it.

I washed the dishes pretty much all week, but yesterday I didn't feel
like it, so I didn't. When my husband got home, he did them because
he felt like he wanted to see the countertops clean. He did this
with no malice, without being mad because I hadn't done them , which
meant that he had to.

Responsibility should be freely accepted an not forced. I don't like
to call them "chores" because something that is a chore is not
enjoyed, it's like a duty that has to be done. Often when we are
"doing our duty" we aren't happy about it. But when I freely choose
to do a household cleaning activity because I want the joy that I am
going to feel by getting it done, that is a better situation. I
don't believe anybody should do anything because the "have" to, only
because they choose to, with joy.


Judie
Catch my Ebay Auctions!
http://www.unhinderedliving.com/ebaypage.html

T. A. Henderson

Someone mentioned that she doesn't make kids do chores and that her husband
feels (or maybe felt?) that the children would not gain a sense of
responsibility otherwise. She wasn't seeking advice on that
topic so I'm presenting it as a separate topic. In my vocabulary "chores"
are our responsibilities around the house, whether they be chores for my
husband, myself, or my children.

I feel it is essential that a child have responsibilities within the family
that he/she is a part of. My children have always been unschooled but I
would never dream of letting them shirk their responsibility to help in
household chores. I feel they must contribute to the family - that's part of
being in a family. Their father and I would do anything for them, but that
doesn't include doing all the chores that they are capable of helping with.
The older they get, the more responsibility they get. I haven't folded
towels in years or unloaded a dishwasher as that is part of their
responsibility now. I do the other part of the laundry and I load. <g> Many
times I had to insist that it be done, but for the most part they know they
have to help out and I don't have to keep reminding them. And my kids don't
get paid an allowance for doing what, IMO, they should rightly be involved
in - keeping the house functional. (My nephew doesn't do squat unless he
gets paid and even then he'll hand it off to someone else.) Now, by some
standards we still do have a messy house (and dusty, that's one chore we all
avoid) but since I didn't make all the
mess, it's not all my responsibility to clean it all up when the time comes.

Teresa
well, as the random sig line below says, I thought twice and posted anyway
<g>


=======================================================================

Think twice before you speak, especially if you intend to say what you
think.

=======================================================================

Tia Leschke

>
> I feel it is essential that a child have responsibilities within the
family
> that he/she is a part of. My children have always been unschooled but I
> would never dream of letting them shirk their responsibility to help in
> household chores. I feel they must contribute to the family - that's part
of
> being in a family. Their father and I would do anything for them, but that
> doesn't include doing all the chores that they are capable of helping
with.
> The older they get, the more responsibility they get.

I used to think that way. I used to get a small amount of work out of my
reluctant son. Then I tried "unchoring". <g>
For a while, he did almost nothing around the house, but in the last few
months he has voluntarily taken on the chores that he cares about. He has a
girlfriend who comes over sometimes, so he cares about the house being clean
and tidy. So he cleans and tidies. He might do different chores along that
line than I would, but that means more is getting done. And what's getting
done is what's important to each of us. He's also taken over looking after
the house plants, because I kept killing them with neglect. At first I took
it as a criticism of me, but now I'm glad he saw it as important. (And when
he moves out, I'll probably send the plants with him.) <g>
Tia
leschke@...

"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where
there is no path and leave a trail."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Tia Leschke

> I used to think that way. I used to get a small amount of work out of my
> reluctant son. Then I tried "unchoring". <g>
> For a while, he did almost nothing around the house, but in the last few
> months he has voluntarily taken on the chores that he cares about.

One thing I forgot to mention is that things really changed for the better
when I started doing little things for him, things that I hadn't been doing
for him for ages because he's old enough to do them himself. He really
seemed to appreciate that and has responded in kind.
Tia
leschke@...

"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where
there is no path and leave a trail."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Amy and Cory Nelson

My children are pretty little yet (4 and 1), so the thought of assigning
chores hasn't been an issue in our house, although I have friends who do
have chore charts for their children my daughter's age.

My take on this is that it's not necessary to assign chores in order for the
children to contribute to the family. I'll ask Accalia if she wants to help
fold laundry, vacuum, unload the dishwasher, etc., and sometimes she will
and sometimes she'll say "No thanks!". About a month or so ago she went
through a huge folding phase where she'd take all of the towels out of a
kitchen drawer and fold them and put them away - very nice :) There are
times where she'll want a lot of floor space in the living room and is the
one to pick up all of the toys on the floor and put them away without me
suggesting it.

She knows that I appreciate when she helps out, and I think that will
continue as she gets older. I don't think as she gets older she'll decide
she's just going to have a free ride and not want to help out. Having not
BTDT, though, I could be way off :)

Amy
Mama to Accalia (6/14/99) and Cole (9/03/02)
"Allow children to be happy in their own way, for what better
way will they find?"
--Dr, Samuel Johnson
http://thissideofsomewhere.blogspot.com/

> My children have always been unschooled but I
> would never dream of letting them shirk their responsibility to help in
> household chores. I feel they must contribute to the family - that's part of
> being in a family.

Olga

We are struggling with this idea ourselves. Our 5yo leaves his
shoes where ever they come off, hates to clean anything, etc. etc.
I really don't make him do much because to be honest the situation
becomes unbearable. Occasionally, I give him really little things
that are easy to do and he will be successful at. Like helping with
the light bags from the grocery store, or putting dirty clothes in
the hamper. Sometimes he is fine and others you would have thought
I had asked him to put his hand in boiling water..LOL!

He needs very small jobs or he gets overwhelmed and it turns into a
meltdown. My expectations match his needs now. I have become more
aware that when he is tired or hungry, it might not be the best time
to make my point about everyone helping in the family.

However, we do wonder if we are letting him become *lazy*. For now,
we do not have a set of chores, but I wonder if a few little jobs he
must complete will help him with responsibility? What are everyones
thoughts?

Olga :)

Penny Piercy

> I feel it is essential that a child have responsibilities within the
family
> that he/she is a part of. My children have always been unschooled but I
> would never dream of letting them shirk their responsibility to help in
> household chores. I feel they must contribute to the family - that's part
of
> being in a family. Their father and I would do anything for them, but that
> doesn't include doing all the chores that they are capable of helping
with.
> The older they get, the more responsibility they get.

We usually set aside one morning a week to do most routine chores; we call
it our "weekly home blessing" a la Flylady. My 10 yo ds and 6 yo dd each
have 2-3 things they are responsible for. 2.5 yo ds tries to jump in here
and there as he can. Sometimes we use a timer to motivate us for 10 minute
work segments and alternating break times.

The number one thing that makes it work is that we are all--myself
included--working at the same time. I think one thing that made me resent
chores so much as a child was the sense that I was being forced to do the
unpleasant jobs my parents didn't want to do and had no option about what to
do. My kid brother did the "boy" chores and I did the "girl" chores (ever
notice there are more of the latter than the former?). Meanwhile my parents
didn't do routine housecleaning chores at all. My allowance was
contingent on adequate completion of chores by week's end, but I couldn't
choose to forgo a given chore, even if I was willing to forgo a portion of
my allowance, until my senior year in high school. That year I decided to
drop *all* chores outside of cleaning my own room and bathroom. I had a
$50/week job, so the hassle of chores I hated was no longer worth the
$15/week I earned doing chores.

My children do get weekly allowances. I try to keep the allowances
separated from the chores. Ideally, the idea is you do chores because you
are a member of the family and you get allowances because you are a member
of the family. I do encourage the completion of chores as a prerequisite to
being free to have some fun activity (i.e., we need to do our chores before
we can go to the park this afternoon). That's more of a work-before-play
thing, though.

My children have input on which chores they do. (Plus their respective ages
limit what they're able to do at present.) I feel it's not appropriate or
helpful to a future householder to just say it should be a child's choice
whether or not to help with household management. In families things *do*
have to get done--we can't just decide not take out the trash or wash the
laundry. The choice comes in how the child will help. (And yes, I do think
that should have applied to me as a teen--was it right that I could decide
to ditch all chores just because I could earn more money working outside the
home? It would have been a lot better if my folks had made a list of all
the chores that needed to get done in the week and let us all divvy them
up--perhaps I would have enjoyed mowing the yard on the riding mower,
something my brother loathed, and I know I would have rather he cleaned his
own pee-spills up in the bathroom than that being my job!)

Warmly,
Penny

-------
Penny Piercy, MA, MLS, MSTie, MRS, and MOM
living and learning in Magnolia, TX, USA

Julie Solich

I feel it is essential that a child have responsibilities within the family
that he/she is a part of. My children have always been unschooled but I
would never dream of letting them shirk their responsibility to help in
household chores. I feel they must contribute to the family - that's part of
being in a family. Their father and I would do anything for them, but that
doesn't include doing all the chores that they are capable of helping with.

Teresa

I mentioned the kids not having to do chores. This has been a gradual
change. I have just slowly stopped 'making' the kids do stuff. I do still
ask if I need help and mostly they do help me out.

We are all sick at the moment. We ate late last night and Mia was ready for
bed as soon as we finished. I got her ready for bed and was in with her for
about an hour while she went to sleep. Mark had gone outside so the boys
were left in the living room alone. When I came through, they had cleared
and wiped the table, tidied the entire lounge room and their craft tables.
The room looked so beautiful. They didn't have to do it, but they wanted to
contribute and do something kind for me. And they did it despite having sore
throats and nasty coughs.

We have a lot more peace now that I have ripped down their chores chart and
I have kids who are 99% of the time really happy to help out and tell me
often how much they appreciate all that I do.

Works for us.

Julie


>
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>
> Think twice before you speak, especially if you intend to say what you
> think.
>
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>
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>

Julie Bogart

> >
> > I feel it is essential that a child have responsibilities within
the
> family
> > that he/she is a part of. My children have always been
unschooled but I
> > would never dream of letting them shirk their responsibility to
help in
> > household chores. I feel they must contribute to the family -
that's part
> of
> > being in a family.

I realized that my kids do contribute to the family in lots of ways,
but somehow we tend to not value those ways as much as
chores.

Examples:

One of my kids is great at decorating. She rearranges table tops,
couch cushions, rugs and plants to make rooms more pleasing.

One of my kids is good at relieving tension with a sense of
humor.

Another one is the first to offer to play a game with a sibling who
needs a playmate.

Two of them will offer to pick up slack for me (dish washing,
straightening or even simply going along on errands to keep me
company).

Our kids still do family clean up stuff: dishes, lawn mowing, and
laundry. But we've totally changed what that means due to
unschooling. We have seven people in the family and we make
big messes. The kids agreed (in dialog with us) that something
organized would make living together better than nothing. So we
have divvied up the way we get the house cleaned. But we've
taken their input seriously and have made big changes in
expectations.

No one does a job that brings him/her to tears (we've seen that).
If someone is really pressed, has an opportunity or is simply
having a bad week, the cleaning task slides and someone else
picks up the slack. For the ones who struggle, we pitch in and do
half (parents do this).

I don't see chores as responsbility training ground. I see caring
relationships as the primary responsiblity of family members. If
there are coerced chores, caring isn't often on the map or radar
screen. Chores get top billing.

But if we move chores into the category of more opportunities to
care for one another, then taking humans seriously becomes
more important than clean bathrooms or mowed lawns.

Interestingly, we've had a much more relaxed approach to
chores since January. We saw amazing amounts of growth in
the first few months (kids volunteering to set the table or hand
wash dishes or sweep when they had only ever done what was
required before). But recently, I've noticed an even more
signifcant change: Consideration!

My teens have become considerate people right before my very
eyes. They say the most amazing things: "Mom, I know you're
tired and have driven me everywhere. Why don't yo go to bed and
I'll get those dishes."

Or: "Mom, Dad's out of town. You have a lot going tomorrow. If
you want me to come and help you out, I will." (This formerly
oblivious daughter then came with me at 9 a.m. on her sleep-in
day to work in the snack shack at a soccer game for two hours
and to play with younger siblings while I worked. I remain
stunned.)

Or: "Can I make lunch? You always do it for everyone."

Or: "I'll take the largest section for lawn mowing." (Why? comes
to mind... maybe to be nice! Yes I think so.)

Point is: coercing chores makes it impossible for kids to offer
their acts of service as gifts of generosity. They are fulfilling
requirements, not loving family members.

Julie B

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/16/03 9:58:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
julie@... writes:

> Two of them will offer to pick up slack for me (dish washing,
> straightening or even simply going along on errands to keep me
> company).

OH PLEASE! Let me have one of them! It isn't fair that you have them BOTH!
GEEZSH. LOL, guess that's my fault for only having one!

Tracy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/16/03 7:34:05 PM, acnelson@... writes:

<< She knows that I appreciate when she helps out, and I think that will
continue as she gets older. I don't think as she gets older she'll decide
she's just going to have a free ride and not want to help out. Having not
BTDT, though, I could be way off :) >>

I've been there.
I don't think you're off at all.

Parents deciding what whose "chores" are insures that there ARE "chores," and
it reinforces the us vs. them dichotomy which is so in opposition to
cooperation and togetherness.

Sandra

glad2bmadly

*** Point is: coercing chores makes it impossible for kids to offer
their acts of service as gifts of generosity. They are fulfilling
requirements, not loving family members.

Julie B****


YES! You put it so well. Since unschooling and coming to this list our family has done away with the "family meeting" we had every week where we did fun things like giving each other compliments and planning dates but also discussed problems and agreed on chores. It has been such a relief to do away with the chore chart. My boys do offer to help (at 6 and 3) and love to vacuum and mop (I detest mopping). They don't always want to clean up after playing so I do it with or for them. They sometimes help when asked and sometimes don't. I am becoming more and more O.K. with the times they don't.

I remember thinking as a child, "If only she (my mother) wouldn't ask me to do the dusting or dish washing (0r whatever it was) I would do it on my own." I told her this and she didn't believe me. But I remember that feeling so well. When we create something ourselves, (as opposed to being pushed or led into it) we don't destroy it. This includes creatively serving one another and giving back to those we love. My 6 yr. old proudly made us lunch today, unasked.

I have never been all that enthusiastic about house cleaning and I really believe it's because of my mother's expectations about it. My husband loves to clean (truly, he does :)) and his experience growing up was this - he "played" at cleaning up every week with his siblings and the house cleaner. It was a game the kids initiated. I now see that forcing the chores would be as wrong as forcing the curriculum. I believe they learn responsibility through our modeling and through being in touch with their own inner compassion. Of course, sometimes I wish they had more consistent access to that iner compassion cavity! I just know that my chore charts(and rules) will create big road blocks in their journey there.

Madeline


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jon and Rue Kream

>> I
would never dream of letting them shirk their responsibility to help in
household chores. I feel they must contribute to the family

Hi Teresa - Do you assume that if parents do not make their children do
household chores the children never do any housework or contribute to the
family? That hasn't proven true in our family.

We've never made our kids do housework. Jon and I do not see housework as a
chore. We do it cheerfully, in order to make our home a place we all enjoy.
Both kids have always helped out when and as they've wanted to. Dagny,
who's ten, has recently taken to noticing when something needs to be cleaned
up and doing it without comment. She's also noticing that there are certain
things I put off doing, and has begun to do some of them herself. Rowan is
six, and likes to join me or Jon with whatever we might be doing. Both are
very thoughtful and appreciate what we do.

We believe that responsibility comes from within. Doing chores because you
are made to doesn't indicate responsibility to me, just compliance. ~Rue


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Judie C. Rall

> What do you think about this type of arrangement as long as the child has input into choosing his/her responsibilities? Because there will certainly be times when the child does not want to do their>
> What do you think?
> Laura T

In our house, nobody does a chore they don't choose to do. We don't
force it on them, and believe me, it has made a difference in the
number of chores that get done.

There will be times when your child doesn't want to do their chores.
So what? There will be times when YOU don't want to do them either.

I used to think as you do. But now I see that each person must
freely choose their responsibilities. If you are making him do it,
then it isn't his responsibility, it's yours.

If one morning no one has clean underwear, then the person who needs
underwear should get up and wash their own. If they want it bad
enough, they will do the work to get it. If they have to wear one
pair two days in a row, that will help them remember to check their
underwear drawer at night before bed to make sure they have some
clean for the next day. That will be a better teacher than you
running around making sure everybody did their chore.


Judie
Catch my Ebay Auctions!
http://www.unhinderedliving.com/ebaypage.html

Amy and Cory Nelson

Loved your post, Julie! Gives me great hope for the future :)

Amy
Mama to Accalia (6/14/99) and Cole (9/03/02)
"Allow children to be happy in their own way, for what better
way will they find?"
--Dr, Samuel Johnson
http://thissideofsomewhere.blogspot.com/

> Point is: coercing chores makes it impossible for kids to offer
> their acts of service as gifts of generosity. They are fulfilling
> requirements, not loving family members.
>
> Julie B

Amy and Cory Nelson

Good :) Thank you.

Since the majority of us didn't grow up in unschooling environments, I think
it's only natural to wonder from time to time if this freedom and respect
will "backfire." Obviously those wonderings and doubts become fewer as you
live a full unschooling life and truly trust and respect your children in
every way.

It makes me so sad when I see friends with children my own children's ages
already knee deep in power struggles and the us vs. them mentality.

Amy
Mama to Accalia (6/14/99) and Cole (9/03/02)
"Allow children to be happy in their own way, for what better
way will they find?"
--Dr, Samuel Johnson
http://thissideofsomewhere.blogspot.com/


> I've been there.
> I don't think you're off at all.
>
> Parents deciding what whose "chores" are insures that there ARE "chores," and
> it reinforces the us vs. them dichotomy which is so in opposition to
> cooperation and togetherness.
>
> Sandra

Shyrley

Olga wrote:

>We are struggling with this idea ourselves. Our 5yo leaves his
>shoes where ever they come off, hates to clean anything,
>
I have a husband like that......
I'm forever tripping over his shoes which he takes off and leaves lying
around. Yet this is a man who's parents had a chore chart and was
apparently tidy at home. Now he's super-slob.

Shyrley

Heidi

Chores and housework discussions always bring out the "model the
behavior and you will see it from your kids" in me.

Our house is a "light clutter" type of thing, with a sparkling
kitchen. (GOTTA have a clean kitchen...my own little specialty, I
guess) However, clutter gets on my nerves. However, I used to ignore
it until it got awful, then holler at the kids to do it. Which they
would, amidst much grumbling and complaining. Main point: I wasn't
cleaning up, but telling the kids to.

Then, FlyLady taught me to do these things as acts of service to my
family, and like Julie B, I started just doing the chores without
comment. After I started cheerfully serving my family by doing the
chores, I have come home more than once, to a clean and tidy house...
teenage daughter having done it, without me asking her to! Now that I
have taken on the chores without negativity, my kids go for it much
more readily. I ask "would you please?" and usually they do. If
not...I do it or I don't, but if I do, it is without harping on them.
My house stays "presentable" and can be sparkling clean, show-the-
house-to-prospective-buyers clean, in about a half hour.

Daughter's best friend's mom is...disorganized, shall we say. Her
house is always a mess. I am NOT passing judgment here, just stating
facts. I've seen her carpet look like the floor of a car, cereal and
milk spilled across a counter top and drying in place, etc. Really
messy. The friend gets asked to clean up, on a regular basis.
Sometimes, my daughter and her friend can't get together because
friend's room is a mess and must be clean before she can go out. When
friend is asked to clean up, she doesn't do it. plain and simple.

IMO, she doesn't do it, because cleaning is never modeled to her. Her
mom doesn't clean up, and neither does she, and neither do any of
them. A very good friend of mine used to grouse about her husband and
boys never helping her around the house. When the youngest was grown,
she divorced her husband and moved into her own place. It looks the
same as her house did, when all those non-helpful men were around.
IOW, she doesn't keep up with the housework, and it shouldn't
surprise her if her family didn't...she never modeled it.

My kids help without having a chore chart, usually I need to ask
them; sometimes they take the initiative. Didn't used to, but with
mom modelling the cleaning, they are much more willing. :)

Blessings, HeidiC


--- In [email protected], glad2bmadly
<glad2bmadly@y...> wrote:
>
>
> *** Point is: coercing chores makes it impossible for kids to offer
> their acts of service as gifts of generosity. They are fulfilling
> requirements, not loving family members.
>
> Julie B****
>
>
> YES! You put it so well. Since unschooling and coming to this list
our family has done away with the "family meeting" we had every week
where we did fun things like giving each other compliments and
planning dates but also discussed problems and agreed on chores. It
has been such a relief to do away with the chore chart.

[email protected]

> SandraDodd@... wrote:
>
> Parents deciding what whose "chores" are insures that there ARE "chores," and
it reinforces the us vs. them dichotomy which is so in opposition to
cooperation and togetherness.


I'm new to unschooling & hadn't considered the "chore" aspect yet. In our home, it has just seemed to make sense to have designated duties -- for example, my daughter is in charge of doing dishes, I do laundry, hubby mows the lawn, etc. Sometimes we help each other, but in general we know who is responsible for most household duties.

I thought of that as a way of being more organized -- to avoid having the laundry pile up until one morning no one has clean underwear, or we have no dishes for dinner.

What do you think about this type of arrangement as long as the child has input into choosing his/her responsibilities? Because there will certainly be times when the child does not want to do their "job", and I would expect them to do it anyway (although sometimes I may help). I've just never felt that I should do it "for" them, as it relieves the child of actually having responsibility for that area.

What do you think?
Laura T



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

mccluskieo@... writes:
> However, we do wonder if we are letting him become *lazy*. For now,
> we do not have a set of chores, but I wonder if a few little jobs he
> must complete will help him with responsibility? What are everyones
> thoughts?
>
> Olga :)


Nah, I don't think scheduled chores will help much, esp if he's so hit or
miss. That would add stress, dontcha think? And, he's only 5!

I would just continue to ask him to do little things I would add asking him
to put his shoes away, and other little stuff that *he's* left out. If you get
a lot of no's on his own stuff, I would talk out loud about it as you clean
it up, asking him questions about where he would like it, etc. It'll give him
an awareness of how much mess he made without being shamed or pressured. I
would ask if he needs help putting something bigger or messier away, kinda
hinting that it needs to be done, but not make a big deal if he wants to leave it
out for a while, or if he's busy. Well, that's what I've done, anyway, so
that's my two cents. lol

We're not chore people here. I'm a reformed slob, so I've gotten pretty
regimented as I clean and organize. We bought a new place last year, and we moved
from a grimey basement apt to a beautiful new condo, so I got very motivated
to schedule ( or at least pay attention to how often things got done) my
housework. But if I don't wash the floor on tuesday, it doesn't matter. Maybe
tuesday was a crappy day, or I was tired or busy, or we were out. If I have that
kind of flexibility, why should I be rigid about a chore schedule for my son?
I've read about charts and stars, etc, and that kind of thing just makes my
skin crawl! lol

But it also means that a lot of times I want to vacuum and I find a pile of
toys on the floor, or I want to dust and there's a project on the table, and if
I ask my 9 yo if he's done for now, or if he could put that away so I can
clean, he almost always does that, or plays with it somewhere else. It involves
him somewhat but the line is his own stuff, he knows what he needs to do, but
that I'll do it if he's busy.

He does help out an awful lot, if I ask him, and more and more, even when I
don't. If the sink is empty, he's likely to wash his plate or bowl, because he
knows I like an empty sink. If there's a bag of garbage, he'll often take it
out, and put a new bag in. He always helps with the laundry, as it's three
floors down, bringing loads up and down. He loves dusting, altho he's not very
thorough. ;-) Sometimes he negotiates pay for certain jobs, now. He often
gets a quarter for helping with the laundry, a quarter for washing a sink full
of glasses ( altho the hubby says he's not too good at reaching the bottom of
the glass! EW), etc.

But this happened from me just asking him to put his own stuff away, and
helping him to organize a little. He sees me doing certain jobs often, and just
started helping me with them on his own. As he got older, he started
contributing more and more.

Last week, when hubby and I weren't feeling well and we were hanging out in
bed, he finished dinner, swept the kitchen floor and cleaned the glass coffee
table, and he said it was because he wanted me to rest. I also knew that it
was because he wanted to "take care." It was generous of him, and very sweet.
And totally unnecessary! lol Except for the dinner part, that was awesome.
He baked the biscuits and chopped and added the veggies for the stew I had
started earlier. I thought it was cute when he told me how much work he thought
it was!

I think that when parents and kids share life in the house, that they
naturally start sharing the work as well. It's just that when kids are young,
they're too busy playing, and I think that's the way it should be. Asking,
suggesting, and talking about cleaning up, tho, makes the child aware that it is not
magick that puts the legos away, or puts the clothes in the drawer clean and
folded. ;-) I don't think it's "laziness" altho sometimes it sure seems like
it is, I know!

Now, his room is another story. His life is too busy, it's one thing and then
another, so I try to understand that's why the mess develops. ( And I don't
hang out in there much, so....I don't see it and don't care!) He's just not in
the habit of putting away. I'm not going to force him to develop those
habits, even tho I think they are good ones to have. He'll learn that or not, on
his own. It's not laziness, tho, I don't (CAN'T) think of it that way, or I
get resentful and he doesn't need that! I help him straighten up a little very
few days, and he's grateful, but it's his space so it's up to him how it looks
and where he puts stuff. It works out well that way.

I hope this helped a little, didn't mean to let this get so long, but I
wanted to share my story about how things developed as my son got older, because he
was a lot like you describe your 5 yo when he was that age. It gets better,
not worse, as they get older. I wouldn't worry.

~Aimee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy

**Jon and I do not see housework as a
chore. We do it cheerfully, in order to make our home a place we all
enjoy.**

I admit about the first 20 times I read this type of statement I found
it inconceivable. But, gradually the concept penetrated my denial AND
my thick skull, and I'm adjusting my attitude.

Thanks for the noodge,
Betsy

Tia Leschke

leschke@...

"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where
there is no path and leave a trail."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
> Point is: coercing chores makes it impossible for kids to offer
> their acts of service as gifts of generosity. They are fulfilling
> requirements, not loving family members.

Wonderful end to a great post. I especially liked the part about valuing
eveyone's contributions. Reminds me of The Country Bunny and the Gold
Shoes, where the artist in the family contributed art for the family to
enjoy, etc. My son is like the one of yours who likes to arrange things in
the nicest way. Sometimes I think he could end up as an interior designer.
Tia

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/17/03 8:38:35 AM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

<< Now that I

have taken on the chores without negativity, my kids go for it much

more readily. I ask "would you please?" and usually they do. >>

A good story happened last night, but needs a buildup (sorry).
Holly and I had eaten out with another female friend late afternoon. Holly
had macaroni and cheese.
Keith had picked Kirby up from karate to take him straight to work, and Keith
ate leftovers.
Marty had been out with homeschooled teens' group at a movie and had eaten
something somewhere.

Time passed.

Holly came in my office, I was on the phone, and signalled her to wait a
minute.
Then Kirby beeped in and wanted a ride home from work.

I was leaving, telling Holly, "I'll be back in an hour. Kirby needs to drive
an hour in the dark." She said she had been trying to ask me to fix her
some protein food because she had a terrible headache. She wanted beans and
cheese on a tortilla. "But I can get it myself," she said really sadly, and I
zoomed away, but felt guilty.

Kirby works less than a mile from the house. I asked him to call Holly and
tell her we'd be right back to make her food. He said he wanted some too
anyway.

Holly was sweetly thrilled when we got there, and Marty came out to see what
all the bustle was.

The four of us all pitched in to do these grated cheese/bean/dip in sour
cream things for Holly and Kirby. Everybody was doing something, and the kitchen
was crowded, but we weren't bumping and grumpy. I asked HOlly if she could
put the silverware away because the dishwasher is right by that drawer and
nobody was in that corner. "Sure!"

She got her food and took it in her room, and I asked Marty to see if she had
gotten milk. "Sure!"

She came out and said "I knew I forgot something!"
Marty offered to get it for her, so she fed the dog while he was doing that.

If we had lots of chores and rules, I think (from experiences when I was
little, and other families I've known) there would have been a lot of "It's not my
turn" and "It's her milk" and "It's Marty's dog," but there was not one
negative second in that whole fifteen minute flurry of crowded activity.

Then Kirby and I went out so he could drive in the dark for an hour, which
completes his supervised practice chart, and he gets his license next week.

If we hadn't gone back home, Holly would have felt abandoned (and the food
didn't make her headache go away, so she probably would have cried, too), Kirby
would've been driving hungry, and I would have felt guilty about leaving Holly
with her sad headachy face.

Sandra

[email protected]

ecsamhill@... writes:
> I admit about the first 20 times I read this type of statement I found
> it inconceivable. But, gradually the concept penetrated my denial AND
> my thick skull, and I'm adjusting my attitude.
>
> Thanks for the noodge,
> Betsy


LMAO. I know just how you feel. I used to instantly *despise* people who
would say things like that. lol It bugged me, irked me, maybe I was jealous?
I dunno. FlyLady calls it blessing your family, and thinking of it that way
has helped a lot.

~Aimee





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

lauratav@... writes:
> I thought of that as a way of being more organized -- to avoid having the
> laundry pile up until one morning no one has clean underwear, or we have no
> dishes for dinner.

I think what's important is if that works out for everyone in your family.
Nothing wrong with being organized, but I would pay attention to flexibility for
balance.

<<What do you think about this type of arrangement as long as the child has
input into choosing his/her responsibilities? >>
I think that's important.
Because there will certainly be times when the child does not want to do
their "job", and I would expect them to do it anyway (although sometimes I may
help). I've just never felt that I should do it "for" them, as it relieves the
child of actually having responsibility for that area.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

lauratav@... writes:
> What do you think about this type of arrangement as long as the child has
> input into choosing his/her responsibilities? Because there will certainly be
> times when the child does not want to do their "job", and I would expect
> them to do it anyway (although sometimes I may help). I've just never felt that
> I should do it "for" them, as it relieves the child of actually having
> responsibility for that area.


OOPSIES. Pressed enter to separate paragraphs and off it went. Wasn't done.


Oh well.

I just think that being aware that people come before things is important.
If you're priority becomes the task and not the child, that's where we can run
into problems.


~Aimee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Olga

Heidi,

Thanks for that advice. We are not messy but clutter surrounds us
so quickly these days. I think you may be right about the modeling
the behavior first.

olga :)

--- In [email protected], "Heidi"
<bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
> Chores and housework discussions always bring out the "model the
> behavior and you will see it from your kids" in me.
>
> Our house is a "light clutter" type of thing, with a sparkling
> kitchen. (GOTTA have a clean kitchen...my own little specialty, I
> guess) However, clutter gets on my nerves. However, I used to
ignore
> it until it got awful, then holler at the kids to do it. Which
they
> would, amidst much grumbling and complaining. Main point: I wasn't
> cleaning up, but telling the kids to.
>
> Then, FlyLady taught me to do these things as acts of service to
my
> family, and like Julie B, I started just doing the chores without
> comment. After I started cheerfully serving my family by doing the
> chores, I have come home more than once, to a clean and tidy
house...
> teenage daughter having done it, without me asking her to! Now
that I
> have taken on the chores without negativity, my kids go for it
much
> more readily. I ask "would you please?" and usually they do. If
> not...I do it or I don't, but if I do, it is without harping on
them.
> My house stays "presentable" and can be sparkling clean, show-the-
> house-to-prospective-buyers clean, in about a half hour.
>
> Daughter's best friend's mom is...disorganized, shall we say. Her
> house is always a mess. I am NOT passing judgment here, just
stating
> facts. I've seen her carpet look like the floor of a car, cereal
and
> milk spilled across a counter top and drying in place, etc. Really
> messy. The friend gets asked to clean up, on a regular basis.
> Sometimes, my daughter and her friend can't get together because
> friend's room is a mess and must be clean before she can go out.
When
> friend is asked to clean up, she doesn't do it. plain and simple.
>
> IMO, she doesn't do it, because cleaning is never modeled to her.
Her
> mom doesn't clean up, and neither does she, and neither do any of
> them. A very good friend of mine used to grouse about her husband
and
> boys never helping her around the house. When the youngest was
grown,
> she divorced her husband and moved into her own place. It looks
the
> same as her house did, when all those non-helpful men were around.
> IOW, she doesn't keep up with the housework, and it shouldn't
> surprise her if her family didn't...she never modeled it.
>
> My kids help without having a chore chart, usually I need to ask
> them; sometimes they take the initiative. Didn't used to, but with
> mom modelling the cleaning, they are much more willing. :)
>
> Blessings, HeidiC
>
>
> --- In [email protected], glad2bmadly
> <glad2bmadly@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > *** Point is: coercing chores makes it impossible for kids to
offer
> > their acts of service as gifts of generosity. They are
fulfilling
> > requirements, not loving family members.
> >
> > Julie B****
> >
> >
> > YES! You put it so well. Since unschooling and coming to this
list
> our family has done away with the "family meeting" we had every
week
> where we did fun things like giving each other compliments and
> planning dates but also discussed problems and agreed on chores.
It
> has been such a relief to do away with the chore chart.

Olga

Aimee,

This was great. I did not agree with the true *chores* thing but
was not sure if we were doing the right thing by not requiring
something. You have given me a new perspective on that. You are
right, he is just too busy playing and maybe when he is older it
will be different.

Luckily, we just moved and have a playroom downstairs and I could
care less about it's appearance. In the other house, when the boys
room was messy it drove me crazy because they had to sleep in it so
this is much less stress :)

Olga :)


> Nah, I don't think scheduled chores will help much, esp if he's so
hit or
> miss. That would add stress, dontcha think? And, he's only 5!
>
> I would just continue to ask him to do little things I would add
asking him
> to put his shoes away, and other little stuff that *he's* left
out. If you get
> a lot of no's on his own stuff, I would talk out loud about it as
you clean
> it up, asking him questions about where he would like it, etc.
It'll give him
> an awareness of how much mess he made without being shamed or
pressured. I
> would ask if he needs help putting something bigger or messier
away, kinda
> hinting that it needs to be done, but not make a big deal if he
wants to leave it
> out for a while, or if he's busy. Well, that's what I've done,
anyway, so
> that's my two cents. lol
>
> We're not chore people here. I'm a reformed slob, so I've gotten
pretty
> regimented as I clean and organize. We bought a new place last
year, and we moved
> from a grimey basement apt to a beautiful new condo, so I got very
motivated
> to schedule ( or at least pay attention to how often things got
done) my
> housework. But if I don't wash the floor on tuesday, it doesn't
matter. Maybe
> tuesday was a crappy day, or I was tired or busy, or we were out.
If I have that
> kind of flexibility, why should I be rigid about a chore schedule
for my son?
> I've read about charts and stars, etc, and that kind of thing
just makes my
> skin crawl! lol
>
> But it also means that a lot of times I want to vacuum and I find
a pile of
> toys on the floor, or I want to dust and there's a project on the
table, and if
> I ask my 9 yo if he's done for now, or if he could put that away
so I can
> clean, he almost always does that, or plays with it somewhere
else. It involves
> him somewhat but the line is his own stuff, he knows what he needs
to do, but
> that I'll do it if he's busy.
>
> He does help out an awful lot, if I ask him, and more and more,
even when I
> don't. If the sink is empty, he's likely to wash his plate or
bowl, because he
> knows I like an empty sink. If there's a bag of garbage, he'll
often take it
> out, and put a new bag in. He always helps with the laundry, as
it's three
> floors down, bringing loads up and down. He loves dusting, altho
he's not very
> thorough. ;-) Sometimes he negotiates pay for certain jobs, now.
He often
> gets a quarter for helping with the laundry, a quarter for washing
a sink full
> of glasses ( altho the hubby says he's not too good at reaching
the bottom of
> the glass! EW), etc.
>
> But this happened from me just asking him to put his own stuff
away, and
> helping him to organize a little. He sees me doing certain jobs
often, and just
> started helping me with them on his own. As he got older, he
started
> contributing more and more.
>
> Last week, when hubby and I weren't feeling well and we were
hanging out in
> bed, he finished dinner, swept the kitchen floor and cleaned the
glass coffee
> table, and he said it was because he wanted me to rest. I also
knew that it
> was because he wanted to "take care." It was generous of him, and
very sweet.
> And totally unnecessary! lol Except for the dinner part, that
was awesome.
> He baked the biscuits and chopped and added the veggies for the
stew I had
> started earlier. I thought it was cute when he told me how much
work he thought
> it was!
>
> I think that when parents and kids share life in the house, that
they
> naturally start sharing the work as well. It's just that when
kids are young,
> they're too busy playing, and I think that's the way it should
be. Asking,
> suggesting, and talking about cleaning up, tho, makes the child
aware that it is not
> magick that puts the legos away, or puts the clothes in the drawer
clean and
> folded. ;-) I don't think it's "laziness" altho sometimes it
sure seems like
> it is, I know!
>
> Now, his room is another story. His life is too busy, it's one
thing and then
> another, so I try to understand that's why the mess develops. (
And I don't
> hang out in there much, so....I don't see it and don't care!)
He's just not in
> the habit of putting away. I'm not going to force him to develop
those
> habits, even tho I think they are good ones to have. He'll learn
that or not, on
> his own. It's not laziness, tho, I don't (CAN'T) think of it that
way, or I
> get resentful and he doesn't need that! I help him straighten up
a little very
> few days, and he's grateful, but it's his space so it's up to him
how it looks
> and where he puts stuff. It works out well that way.
>
> I hope this helped a little, didn't mean to let this get so long,
but I
> wanted to share my story about how things developed as my son got
older, because he
> was a lot like you describe your 5 yo when he was that age. It
gets better,
> not worse, as they get older. I wouldn't worry.
>
> ~Aimee
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]