unschooling sibling relationships
Ren
" Maybe he takes his frustrations out on me because he
knows I won't "retaliate".. I don't know."
How horrible.
He's taking it out on you because you don't have any personal boundaries about verbal abuse apparently. That is really unhealthy to let someone treat you that way without stopping them. I would never let someone talk to me that way, child or adult.
It doesn't have to be about "retaliation" vs. letting anything go. There are ways to protect YOU from abuse while not being punitive with the frustrated person.
My children have never treated me like this, and I have a very hot tempered child that does inappropriate things at times. But he knows I love myself too much to let anyone treat me horrible like that. They also have recieved advice about limiting their world and their friendships by acting certain ways, and tips on how to better handle situations when they feel strongly.
I don't think it's acceptable for anyone to treat you like this.
Set some personal boundaries.
Ren
knows I won't "retaliate".. I don't know."
How horrible.
He's taking it out on you because you don't have any personal boundaries about verbal abuse apparently. That is really unhealthy to let someone treat you that way without stopping them. I would never let someone talk to me that way, child or adult.
It doesn't have to be about "retaliation" vs. letting anything go. There are ways to protect YOU from abuse while not being punitive with the frustrated person.
My children have never treated me like this, and I have a very hot tempered child that does inappropriate things at times. But he knows I love myself too much to let anyone treat me horrible like that. They also have recieved advice about limiting their world and their friendships by acting certain ways, and tips on how to better handle situations when they feel strongly.
I don't think it's acceptable for anyone to treat you like this.
Set some personal boundaries.
Ren
Teresa
> I don't think it's acceptable for anyone to treat you like this.Your advice is very similar to Sandra's. Please, explain how
> Set some personal boundaries.
>
> Ren
you "set personal boundaries" and "do not tolerate" this kind of
behavior? Also, I am curious, why didn't Shyrley get the same kind
of advice for a very similar "problem"?
Teresa
Teresa
There are ways to protect YOU from abuse while not being punitive
with the frustrated person.
Please, tell us about them. He is not my husband, I can't leave
him. He is not a co-worker, I can not report him or quit my job. He
is not an adult friend, I can not sever the relationship. I do not
behave in that way, he knows it is not OK to treat people that way.
He always shows remorse, apologizes, verbalizes his feelings better
after the rage subsides.
I have found the best way to deal with these outrages is to wait
them out. I offer comfort, try to hold ( sometimes restrain) the
child. If we are at home, I will lay down on the bed with him, rub
his back, hug him tight. If it is feasible, when we are on the road,
I will pull over and try the same tactics. And of course, LOTS of
talking, expressing emotion when the rage is over. Landon and Ethan
( almost) simply outgrew these tantrums. Anna has never had them.
I am not sure if you folks understand, these are fits of rage,
not "everday, common occurences" He doesnt walk around calling me
names every time something does not suit him. All of my children and
I have very close, loving, healthy relationships. No one here
except Pam G has really been with, observed, spent any amount of time
with, my family. I wanted to commiserate with Shryley, acknowlege
and empathize that I know how it feels to have children who have
explosive, impulsive anger. My intention was to assure her that she
is not a crappy mother, not to imply that I am.
Teresa
with the frustrated person.
Please, tell us about them. He is not my husband, I can't leave
him. He is not a co-worker, I can not report him or quit my job. He
is not an adult friend, I can not sever the relationship. I do not
behave in that way, he knows it is not OK to treat people that way.
He always shows remorse, apologizes, verbalizes his feelings better
after the rage subsides.
I have found the best way to deal with these outrages is to wait
them out. I offer comfort, try to hold ( sometimes restrain) the
child. If we are at home, I will lay down on the bed with him, rub
his back, hug him tight. If it is feasible, when we are on the road,
I will pull over and try the same tactics. And of course, LOTS of
talking, expressing emotion when the rage is over. Landon and Ethan
( almost) simply outgrew these tantrums. Anna has never had them.
I am not sure if you folks understand, these are fits of rage,
not "everday, common occurences" He doesnt walk around calling me
names every time something does not suit him. All of my children and
I have very close, loving, healthy relationships. No one here
except Pam G has really been with, observed, spent any amount of time
with, my family. I wanted to commiserate with Shryley, acknowlege
and empathize that I know how it feels to have children who have
explosive, impulsive anger. My intention was to assure her that she
is not a crappy mother, not to imply that I am.
Teresa
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/13/2003 9:30:17 AM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
no one seems to be offering some concrete solutions. How does she do this?
How would others recommend a remedy for this situation? When things have gone
this far (I've seen it with a friend) it's hard to turn around.
I'll give my 2 cents, and some may not agree with it. I've had to deal with
foster children who came to us out of control with no respect, especially for
me, problems with respect for women. I've been told I'm a f***ing b**ch,
whore, I've been told they want to kill me, hit, bit....LOL...the whole gamit!
To me, the natural thing that happens in life when someone treats another
like crap, is those people no longer want to be around or spend time with the
perpetrator. So, in the past, I would either remove myself from the child's
presence, and let them know I have done nothing to be treated like this, and when
they are ready to talk to me the way I speak to them, they can come and sit
with me and we'll talk. If they continue to harass, I completely ignore them.
Pretend they're not even there. Or, if I was in the middle of something, they
would have to leave the room, go upstairs, go outside...think about
things...but remove themselves from my presence. Same situation if they are harassing
another child or sibling. It really worked for us. When the kid is ready to
talk about things in a decent, kind way, they're welcomed back with open arms,
the situation is resolved, everyone is happy. But like others have said, no
one deserves to be treated like s**t.
I'm sure you'll get other solutions, but this worked for us.
Nancy B. in WV
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> There are ways to protect YOU from abuse while not being punitive with theGreat advice, and everyone keeps telling her to set personal boundries, but
> frustrated person.
> My children have never treated me like this, and I have a very hot tempered
> child that does inappropriate things at times. But he knows I love myself too
> much to let anyone treat me horrible like that. They also have recieved
> advice about limiting their world and their friendships by acting certain ways,
> and tips on how to better handle situations when they feel strongly.
> I don't think it's acceptable for anyone to treat you like this.
> Set some personal boundaries.
>
no one seems to be offering some concrete solutions. How does she do this?
How would others recommend a remedy for this situation? When things have gone
this far (I've seen it with a friend) it's hard to turn around.
I'll give my 2 cents, and some may not agree with it. I've had to deal with
foster children who came to us out of control with no respect, especially for
me, problems with respect for women. I've been told I'm a f***ing b**ch,
whore, I've been told they want to kill me, hit, bit....LOL...the whole gamit!
To me, the natural thing that happens in life when someone treats another
like crap, is those people no longer want to be around or spend time with the
perpetrator. So, in the past, I would either remove myself from the child's
presence, and let them know I have done nothing to be treated like this, and when
they are ready to talk to me the way I speak to them, they can come and sit
with me and we'll talk. If they continue to harass, I completely ignore them.
Pretend they're not even there. Or, if I was in the middle of something, they
would have to leave the room, go upstairs, go outside...think about
things...but remove themselves from my presence. Same situation if they are harassing
another child or sibling. It really worked for us. When the kid is ready to
talk about things in a decent, kind way, they're welcomed back with open arms,
the situation is resolved, everyone is happy. But like others have said, no
one deserves to be treated like s**t.
I'm sure you'll get other solutions, but this worked for us.
Nancy B. in WV
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marjorie Kirk
I have a very similar situation with one of my children. It doesn't happen
often, but when it does it's horrible! When he's calm he understands that
it's not O.K. to say or do abusive things and he's very sorry that he has,
but when it's happening he Totally loses control. One thing that helps us
is to have a code word. When he's just about to lose it, I use the code
word. It basically just warns him that he's about to go off and often,
although not always, he can pause for a moment and take a deep breath and
try to re-group. Sometimes he's too far gone but sometimes it helps keep
his anger in check.
Marjorie
often, but when it does it's horrible! When he's calm he understands that
it's not O.K. to say or do abusive things and he's very sorry that he has,
but when it's happening he Totally loses control. One thing that helps us
is to have a code word. When he's just about to lose it, I use the code
word. It basically just warns him that he's about to go off and often,
although not always, he can pause for a moment and take a deep breath and
try to re-group. Sometimes he's too far gone but sometimes it helps keep
his anger in check.
Marjorie
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/13/03 12:47:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mkirk@... writes:
a big step toward avoiding the outburst. And, as I said earlier, sometimes
it's a matter of age, maturity.. the older a child gets, the more they can
understand thier own body signals and the better a code word, or a gentle
encouragement to calm down can help. At almost 17, Landon has not had an
outrageous epidsode since he was about 13.. At at that time, he had a lot of stress and
mitigating factors going on in his life to perpetuate his frustration.
Landon does not cuss at me, he would NEVER dream of hitting me. He is polite and
well adjusted. Sometimes he is appalled at JP's behavior, but with a little
reminder, he remembers that he used the behave very much the same way. At
almost 12, Ethan rarely blows up.. He does still occasionally lose control, but
very less often that say, a year ago. JP is now 8 and he seems to be hitting
his peak for explosive behavior. He will be fine. He will learn to work
through his overwhelming emotions and find better ways to deal with frustration
( with my support, of course)
Nancy in BW talked about how she deals with foster children who exhibit these
types of behaviors. I agree, lots of kids with emotional issues come from
broken homes, abusive situations, it's the only way they know to relate to
others. My children have never been abused. My family , even my extended
family to Grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, are all very close, loving.. Two
of my nephews ( my sisters son and my bil and sil son..) are also very high
strung with volitile tempers. I think thier dispositions are genetic, not a
product of bad parenting.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mkirk@... writes:
> Sometimes he's too far gone but sometimes it helps keepYes, Marjorie, I agree, heading off a situation, seeing the warning signs, is
> his anger in check.
>
> Marjorie
>
a big step toward avoiding the outburst. And, as I said earlier, sometimes
it's a matter of age, maturity.. the older a child gets, the more they can
understand thier own body signals and the better a code word, or a gentle
encouragement to calm down can help. At almost 17, Landon has not had an
outrageous epidsode since he was about 13.. At at that time, he had a lot of stress and
mitigating factors going on in his life to perpetuate his frustration.
Landon does not cuss at me, he would NEVER dream of hitting me. He is polite and
well adjusted. Sometimes he is appalled at JP's behavior, but with a little
reminder, he remembers that he used the behave very much the same way. At
almost 12, Ethan rarely blows up.. He does still occasionally lose control, but
very less often that say, a year ago. JP is now 8 and he seems to be hitting
his peak for explosive behavior. He will be fine. He will learn to work
through his overwhelming emotions and find better ways to deal with frustration
( with my support, of course)
Nancy in BW talked about how she deals with foster children who exhibit these
types of behaviors. I agree, lots of kids with emotional issues come from
broken homes, abusive situations, it's the only way they know to relate to
others. My children have never been abused. My family , even my extended
family to Grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, are all very close, loving.. Two
of my nephews ( my sisters son and my bil and sil son..) are also very high
strung with volitile tempers. I think thier dispositions are genetic, not a
product of bad parenting.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marjorie Kirk
>the
> To me, the natural thing that happens in life when someone treats another
> like crap, is those people no longer want to be around or spend time with
> perpetrator. So, in the past, I would either remove myself from thechild's
> presence, and let them know I have done nothing to be treated like this,and when
> they are ready to talk to me the way I speak to them, they can come andsit
> with me and we'll talk. If they continue to harass, I completely ignorethem.
> Pretend they're not even there. Or, if I was in the middle of something,they
> would have to leave the room, go upstairs, go outside...think aboutare harassing
> things...but remove themselves from my presence. Same situation if they
> another child or sibling. It really worked for us. When the kid is readyto
> talk about things in a decent, kind way, they're welcomed back with openarms,
> the situation is resolved, everyone is happy. But like others have said,no
> one deserves to be treated like s**t.Nancy, I agree totally, about not staying in the presence of someone being
>
abusive. I have said to my kids "I don't want to be talked to like that, so
I'm leaving the room. You can come talk to me when you calm down and can
speak respectfully". Another phrase which has helped is just to ask them
"Is that how you would like me to speak to you?" The answer is usually no
and we start over. Both of these usually work with simply angry children,
but when my son has LOST IT, I might as well be speaking a foreign language.
He really seems incapable of registering anything I say.
Another situation I struggle with is what to do when it happens in public.
I'm really not too concerned with what others think, but I can't just leave
him in the middle of the mall or park, and just walk away. And now he's too
big to pick up and haul to the car, which is what I sometimes had to do
when he was little.
Marjorie
24hrmom
<<I have found the best way to deal with these outrages is to wait
them out.>>
That is what I have found as well. Once they lose control of their frustration and/or anger, I've found they recover the quickest by me waiting it out. I have found the best thing I can do for them at that point is to minimize any additional external stimuli - it just sends them back over the edge. I have found that any talking, touching, environment changes (even changing the lighting, or me changing position in the room standing to standing etc.) often gets them worked up again until the episode has completely passed.
The kids recognize this as well. In fact, if my husband tries to reason with Alyssa (9) when she is close to or over "the edge", one of my sons (6 and 11) will often recognize the situation and remind him not to speak to her right now, that she'll just get more upset.
Advice? Well, I can just tell you what I do.
I talk with the kids about this regularly - when they are calm. We talk about trying to notice when they are getting overly frustrated or angry, the things they can do to try to calm down, reasonable ways to express their anger, ways they can work out a compromise with each other (if they are getting angry with someone else over something), and I ask what they would like me to do to help when they feel that way.
My eldest son Joseph asked me to point the situation out to him and gently suggest he spend some quiet time in his room to calm down - but he made a point of telling me that I should not express any frustration with him even in my tone of voice or body language. Alyssa says she wants me to stay with her but do nothing (i.e. no talking, touching etc. - she is the most sensitive to any movement when she has lost control). My youngest Michael is a silent rager, which is easier on the ears but is turning out to be just as difficult work with. He hasn't yet been able to tell me much about what I can do to help him out so I just keep trying different things. These aren't long, complete conversations - they don't have patience or interest for that - but shorter ones, especially as they relate/connect to things that come up during the day.
I also work hard to recognize when they getting close to their tolerance level or breaking point for frustration/anger... and that is a moving target based on the situation and environment. When I see them getting frustrated or angry I evaluate the situation and see if there's something I can do to help before it gets out of control: offer some food or a new/quiet activity (alone or with me), help work out compromise or offer help with whatever's causing the frustration (look up a game guide, hold the paper etc.), or leave the environment entirely (like a crowded or noisy function etc.). I also try to connect with the child and talk with him/her right away about how I can see they are getting frustrated so they can label what they're feeling and I'll go through with them the stuff we've talked about before to help them calm down or work it out. But sometimes it doesn't work, or the rage comes seemingly out-of-the-blue with practically no visible warning signs. When that happens I create the best environment I can for them until they calm down. And later calmly talk again ... and again ... and again.
For my kids we've found that usually the best environment is in their room - a comfortable, familiar place with no additional stimuli to keep pushing them over the edge. If we're not home, like in the car, we all know not to say or do anything (i.e. no more external stimuli) and I'll try to put a distracting,soothing CD in - one that the particular child enjoys, while he/she calms down. What works for helping them come out of a rage is particular to each child. This you'll need to find by trying different things out and by asking them later what they think you could do to help them. But don't invest yourself in that as the final solution! You may find yourself saying after next time - "I tried to do that but it didn't seem to help you, what else can you think of?"
I am seeing that the cumulative effort of many shorter conversations along with maturity and experience as they get older seems to be helping. Joseph has pretty much learned how to handle himself when he gets really frustrated or angry so he very rarely goes over the edge and rages. He can usually catch himself and he moves on to another room or activity until the frustration/anger subsides. Alyssa also loses control less and less frequently now as well.
Personally, it has also helped me to realize this is just part of their personality/makeup. I remember that since they were babies they have always had a certain tolerance level for things and past that they lost control. I have always strived to minimize situations where they would approach their tolerance level and if it happened, comfort them the best I could to help them regain control as quickly and painlessly as possible. And as they get older, to help them learn how to recognize these situations, head them off, or regain control for themselves.
Pam L.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
them out.>>
That is what I have found as well. Once they lose control of their frustration and/or anger, I've found they recover the quickest by me waiting it out. I have found the best thing I can do for them at that point is to minimize any additional external stimuli - it just sends them back over the edge. I have found that any talking, touching, environment changes (even changing the lighting, or me changing position in the room standing to standing etc.) often gets them worked up again until the episode has completely passed.
The kids recognize this as well. In fact, if my husband tries to reason with Alyssa (9) when she is close to or over "the edge", one of my sons (6 and 11) will often recognize the situation and remind him not to speak to her right now, that she'll just get more upset.
Advice? Well, I can just tell you what I do.
I talk with the kids about this regularly - when they are calm. We talk about trying to notice when they are getting overly frustrated or angry, the things they can do to try to calm down, reasonable ways to express their anger, ways they can work out a compromise with each other (if they are getting angry with someone else over something), and I ask what they would like me to do to help when they feel that way.
My eldest son Joseph asked me to point the situation out to him and gently suggest he spend some quiet time in his room to calm down - but he made a point of telling me that I should not express any frustration with him even in my tone of voice or body language. Alyssa says she wants me to stay with her but do nothing (i.e. no talking, touching etc. - she is the most sensitive to any movement when she has lost control). My youngest Michael is a silent rager, which is easier on the ears but is turning out to be just as difficult work with. He hasn't yet been able to tell me much about what I can do to help him out so I just keep trying different things. These aren't long, complete conversations - they don't have patience or interest for that - but shorter ones, especially as they relate/connect to things that come up during the day.
I also work hard to recognize when they getting close to their tolerance level or breaking point for frustration/anger... and that is a moving target based on the situation and environment. When I see them getting frustrated or angry I evaluate the situation and see if there's something I can do to help before it gets out of control: offer some food or a new/quiet activity (alone or with me), help work out compromise or offer help with whatever's causing the frustration (look up a game guide, hold the paper etc.), or leave the environment entirely (like a crowded or noisy function etc.). I also try to connect with the child and talk with him/her right away about how I can see they are getting frustrated so they can label what they're feeling and I'll go through with them the stuff we've talked about before to help them calm down or work it out. But sometimes it doesn't work, or the rage comes seemingly out-of-the-blue with practically no visible warning signs. When that happens I create the best environment I can for them until they calm down. And later calmly talk again ... and again ... and again.
For my kids we've found that usually the best environment is in their room - a comfortable, familiar place with no additional stimuli to keep pushing them over the edge. If we're not home, like in the car, we all know not to say or do anything (i.e. no more external stimuli) and I'll try to put a distracting,soothing CD in - one that the particular child enjoys, while he/she calms down. What works for helping them come out of a rage is particular to each child. This you'll need to find by trying different things out and by asking them later what they think you could do to help them. But don't invest yourself in that as the final solution! You may find yourself saying after next time - "I tried to do that but it didn't seem to help you, what else can you think of?"
I am seeing that the cumulative effort of many shorter conversations along with maturity and experience as they get older seems to be helping. Joseph has pretty much learned how to handle himself when he gets really frustrated or angry so he very rarely goes over the edge and rages. He can usually catch himself and he moves on to another room or activity until the frustration/anger subsides. Alyssa also loses control less and less frequently now as well.
Personally, it has also helped me to realize this is just part of their personality/makeup. I remember that since they were babies they have always had a certain tolerance level for things and past that they lost control. I have always strived to minimize situations where they would approach their tolerance level and if it happened, comfort them the best I could to help them regain control as quickly and painlessly as possible. And as they get older, to help them learn how to recognize these situations, head them off, or regain control for themselves.
Pam L.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shannon
Oh now the code word sounds like a good thing. Connor goes off the deep end
too ~ not with the abusive language. But yelling and totally out of
control. This usually happens if he has eaten foods hes allergic to. Ill
have to try the code word. Is your code word a silly one so he laughs
instead of being angry, Marjorie?
Shan
-----Original Message-----
From: Marjorie Kirk [mailto:mkirk@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 9:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: unschooling sibling relationships
I have a very similar situation with one of my children. It doesn't happen
often, but when it does it's horrible! When he's calm he understands that
it's not O.K. to say or do abusive things and he's very sorry that he has,
but when it's happening he Totally loses control. One thing that helps us
is to have a code word. When he's just about to lose it, I use the code
word. It basically just warns him that he's about to go off and often,
although not always, he can pause for a moment and take a deep breath and
try to re-group. Sometimes he's too far gone but sometimes it helps keep
his anger in check.
Marjorie
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
too ~ not with the abusive language. But yelling and totally out of
control. This usually happens if he has eaten foods hes allergic to. Ill
have to try the code word. Is your code word a silly one so he laughs
instead of being angry, Marjorie?
Shan
-----Original Message-----
From: Marjorie Kirk [mailto:mkirk@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 9:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: unschooling sibling relationships
I have a very similar situation with one of my children. It doesn't happen
often, but when it does it's horrible! When he's calm he understands that
it's not O.K. to say or do abusive things and he's very sorry that he has,
but when it's happening he Totally loses control. One thing that helps us
is to have a code word. When he's just about to lose it, I use the code
word. It basically just warns him that he's about to go off and often,
although not always, he can pause for a moment and take a deep breath and
try to re-group. Sometimes he's too far gone but sometimes it helps keep
his anger in check.
Marjorie
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
click here
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=259538.3887155.5125412.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17050819
72:HM/A=1750876/R=0/SIG=11v1mrq3u/*http://hits.411web.com/cgi-bin/hit?page=1
762-1062629109228440>
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/13/03 8:20:27 AM, TeresaBnNC@... writes:
<< Also, I am curious, why didn't Shyrley get the same kind
of advice for a very similar "problem"? >>
Shyrley mentioned the problem.
You detailed an incident in which it seemed, from your account, that your
plan was to just let him spew until he was done and then say nothing.
<< Please, explain how you "set personal boundaries" and "do not tolerate"
this kind of
behavior? >>
Saying nothing while someone is pissing on your feet is tolerating it.
Saying "Stop it," or moving your feet out of his range is setting personal
boundaries and not tolerating it.
Sandra
<< Also, I am curious, why didn't Shyrley get the same kind
of advice for a very similar "problem"? >>
Shyrley mentioned the problem.
You detailed an incident in which it seemed, from your account, that your
plan was to just let him spew until he was done and then say nothing.
<< Please, explain how you "set personal boundaries" and "do not tolerate"
this kind of
behavior? >>
Saying nothing while someone is pissing on your feet is tolerating it.
Saying "Stop it," or moving your feet out of his range is setting personal
boundaries and not tolerating it.
Sandra
24hrmom
<<Both of these usually work with simply angry children,
but when my son has LOST IT, I might as well be speaking a foreign language.
He really seems incapable of registering anything I say.>>
That's so true. Once they've "lost it" they just can't take in *anything* else until they regain some control. An interesting thing I've noticed with my daughter is that as she her rages it takes on a self-soothing, rhythmic pattern as she calms herself down (as long as I stay and keep all other stimuli away).
<<Another situation I struggle with is what to do when it happens in public.
I'm really not too concerned with what others think, but I can't just leave
him in the middle of the mall or park, and just walk away. And now he's too
big to pick up and haul to the car, which is what I sometimes had to do
when he was little.>>
When we're out and it happens I just try my best to get to quiet place, a room out the way, the car etc. I find if they lose control while we're out they will almost unconsciously follow me as I move slowly to a better place. I may try to place an arm around them to help direct them (sometimes works, sometimes not). But one thing that has helped is to try not to take them out unless they want to come. If I have to do some running around I try to wait until my husband is home and just ask who wants to come. That keeps the frustration level low to start with so it takes more to push them over the edge.
Pam L.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
but when my son has LOST IT, I might as well be speaking a foreign language.
He really seems incapable of registering anything I say.>>
That's so true. Once they've "lost it" they just can't take in *anything* else until they regain some control. An interesting thing I've noticed with my daughter is that as she her rages it takes on a self-soothing, rhythmic pattern as she calms herself down (as long as I stay and keep all other stimuli away).
<<Another situation I struggle with is what to do when it happens in public.
I'm really not too concerned with what others think, but I can't just leave
him in the middle of the mall or park, and just walk away. And now he's too
big to pick up and haul to the car, which is what I sometimes had to do
when he was little.>>
When we're out and it happens I just try my best to get to quiet place, a room out the way, the car etc. I find if they lose control while we're out they will almost unconsciously follow me as I move slowly to a better place. I may try to place an arm around them to help direct them (sometimes works, sometimes not). But one thing that has helped is to try not to take them out unless they want to come. If I have to do some running around I try to wait until my husband is home and just ask who wants to come. That keeps the frustration level low to start with so it takes more to push them over the edge.
Pam L.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shyrley
Teresa wrote:
grounding or hitting my kids. Generally they don't like to hurt my
feelings and treat me well but what do I do when those explosive tempers
go off? I can't physically restrain them or threaten them. In the 3
years since they were freed from school they have changed but obviously
still not enough to fit into polite society. While I'm sure maturity
will help them learn to keep their tempers what do I do *now*? Soon
noone will speak to me and we will be banned from all houses.
We do discuss it when they've calmed down and they know they sholdn't
yell n swear but I also don't belive in making them repress their
tempers and pretend everything is OK.
I feel really stuck and feel envious of people who have calm, well
mannered kids, mainly through genetics or whose kids behave on the
surface cos of fear.
Shyrley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I'd like to kow the *how* as well. I don't belive in punishment or
>
>
>>I don't think it's acceptable for anyone to treat you like this.
>>Set some personal boundaries.
>>
>>Ren
>>
>>
>
>Your advice is very similar to Sandra's. Please, explain how
>you "set personal boundaries" and "do not tolerate" this kind of
>behavior? Also, I am curious, why didn't Shyrley get the same kind
>of advice for a very similar "problem"?
>
>Teresa
>
>
>
>
>
grounding or hitting my kids. Generally they don't like to hurt my
feelings and treat me well but what do I do when those explosive tempers
go off? I can't physically restrain them or threaten them. In the 3
years since they were freed from school they have changed but obviously
still not enough to fit into polite society. While I'm sure maturity
will help them learn to keep their tempers what do I do *now*? Soon
noone will speak to me and we will be banned from all houses.
We do discuss it when they've calmed down and they know they sholdn't
yell n swear but I also don't belive in making them repress their
tempers and pretend everything is OK.
I feel really stuck and feel envious of people who have calm, well
mannered kids, mainly through genetics or whose kids behave on the
surface cos of fear.
Shyrley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shyrley
Teresa wrote:
to understand. Its easy to say set boundaries etc etc if your child
doesn't go off into a beserk 'red rage'. My two kids who do are
regretful afterwards, and usually apologise (aprt from Heather for this
one incident. The lady concerend wishes to have a 'face to face'
discussion with Heather even though Heather has apologised. H wants to
forget it and move on and feels sullen and resentful about this possible
discussion. I don't want to lose this lady as a friend but I can't see
how *making* H sit down is going to help. It will make things worse.)
These tempers are not regular occurances but they always seem to happen
in the worst places - people's houses who somehow think that watching a
tantrum will influence their kids forever n ever .
I sometimes wish I didn't need to see other people and then me n my kids
could stay in a box until they've grown out of this but I go nuts with
loneliness after a bit. Especially with a new baby on the way :-(
Shyrley
>I second that. Unless you have a child with a 'fiery' temper it is hard
>I am not sure if you folks understand, these are fits of rage,
>not "everday, common occurences" He doesnt walk around calling me
>names every time something does not suit him. All of my children and
>I have very close, loving, healthy relationships. No one here
>except Pam G has really been with, observed, spent any amount of time
>with, my family. I wanted to commiserate with Shryley, acknowlege
>and empathize that I know how it feels to have children who have
>explosive, impulsive anger. My intention was to assure her that she
>is not a crappy mother, not to imply that I am.
>
>Teresa
>
>
to understand. Its easy to say set boundaries etc etc if your child
doesn't go off into a beserk 'red rage'. My two kids who do are
regretful afterwards, and usually apologise (aprt from Heather for this
one incident. The lady concerend wishes to have a 'face to face'
discussion with Heather even though Heather has apologised. H wants to
forget it and move on and feels sullen and resentful about this possible
discussion. I don't want to lose this lady as a friend but I can't see
how *making* H sit down is going to help. It will make things worse.)
These tempers are not regular occurances but they always seem to happen
in the worst places - people's houses who somehow think that watching a
tantrum will influence their kids forever n ever .
I sometimes wish I didn't need to see other people and then me n my kids
could stay in a box until they've grown out of this but I go nuts with
loneliness after a bit. Especially with a new baby on the way :-(
Shyrley
Marjorie Kirk
Oh now the code word sounds like a good thing. Connor goes off the deep end
too ~ not with the abusive language. But yelling and totally out of
control. This usually happens if he has eaten foods he's allergic to. I'll
have to try the code word. Is your code word a silly one so he laughs
instead of being angry, Marjorie?
Shan
My oldest came up with the code word "Snowbee" several years ago. I don't
know where it came from, but now the whole family uses it. They even
sometimes say "Snowbee, mom".
Marjorie
too ~ not with the abusive language. But yelling and totally out of
control. This usually happens if he has eaten foods he's allergic to. I'll
have to try the code word. Is your code word a silly one so he laughs
instead of being angry, Marjorie?
Shan
My oldest came up with the code word "Snowbee" several years ago. I don't
know where it came from, but now the whole family uses it. They even
sometimes say "Snowbee, mom".
Marjorie
Shyrley
CelticFrau@... wrote:
blows itself out. Plus, a child throwing a tantrum isn't really that
important to me. I guess I'm pretty tolerant. Its the reactions of
others that are the problem. People who think a 7 yo saying 'F***' is
the worse thing in the world and will instantly make their own kids into
disrespectful little thugs.
Sigh.
Shyrley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Yeah, I ignore it myself as long as no-one is being hurt. It usually
>>
>>
>
>Great advice, and everyone keeps telling her to set personal boundries, but
>no one seems to be offering some concrete solutions. How does she do this?
>How would others recommend a remedy for this situation? When things have gone
>this far (I've seen it with a friend) it's hard to turn around.
>
>I'll give my 2 cents, and some may not agree with it. I've had to deal with
>foster children who came to us out of control with no respect, especially for
>me, problems with respect for women. I've been told I'm a f***ing b**ch,
>whore, I've been told they want to kill me, hit, bit....LOL...the whole gamit!
>
>To me, the natural thing that happens in life when someone treats another
>like crap, is those people no longer want to be around or spend time with the
>perpetrator. So, in the past, I would either remove myself from the child's
>presence, and let them know I have done nothing to be treated like this, and when
>they are ready to talk to me the way I speak to them, they can come and sit
>with me and we'll talk. If they continue to harass, I completely ignore them.
>Pretend they're not even there. Or, if I was in the middle of something, they
>would have to leave the room, go upstairs, go outside...think about
>things...but remove themselves from my presence. Same situation if they are harassing
>another child or sibling. It really worked for us. When the kid is ready to
>talk about things in a decent, kind way, they're welcomed back with open arms,
>the situation is resolved, everyone is happy. But like others have said, no
>one deserves to be treated like s**t.
>
>I'm sure you'll get other solutions, but this worked for us.
>
>Nancy B. in WV
>
>
>
blows itself out. Plus, a child throwing a tantrum isn't really that
important to me. I guess I'm pretty tolerant. Its the reactions of
others that are the problem. People who think a 7 yo saying 'F***' is
the worse thing in the world and will instantly make their own kids into
disrespectful little thugs.
Sigh.
Shyrley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/13/03 10:47:43 AM, mkirk@... writes:
<< One thing that helps us
is to have a code word. When he's just about to lose it, I use the code
word. It basically just warns him that he's about to go off and often,
although not always, he can pause for a moment and take a deep breath and
try to re-group. >>
We had weekly playgroup meetings from the time Kirby was three or so until he
was 13, and though it wasn't at all necessary in the later years, I would
say, if he looked about to lose his cool about something, "Do you want to go for
a walk with me, Kirby?"
It helped to say his name. It helped to say it nicely, not in a hateful-mom
"Do you want me to get the belt" kind of tone of voice, which some of us heard
as kids--not a question, but a threat. It wasn't a threat. I wasn't going to
make him go for a walk. It was a reminder that he got and others didn't
know was a reminder. It was a reminder that breathing and walking away might
honestly feel good about then. Once in a while he'd get up and we'd go to the
car to get something, or we'd walk over to a tree to look for birds' nests, or
some unimportantish thing, but he could tell me why he was getting angry, or
say he didn't feel good and would like to go home soon, or say one kid or
another wasn't being nice with his toys. Sometimes it was something I could fix.
More often, he would say "No, I'd rather stay here." but still the growing
frustration was broken, and he got to start again from a calmer place. It
helped just that he knew that I knew he was getting frustrated. Having a witness
who had acknowledged the clues (which I might have noticed before he did)
made it easier for him to remember his surroundings instead of being so focussed
on the feelings building inside him.
Sometimes, though it wasn't as friendly as "do you want to go for a walk,"
I'd just say softly "You're not the only one here." Sometimes that was
followed by "Breathe" or "Do you want to go for a walk?"
Sandra
<< One thing that helps us
is to have a code word. When he's just about to lose it, I use the code
word. It basically just warns him that he's about to go off and often,
although not always, he can pause for a moment and take a deep breath and
try to re-group. >>
We had weekly playgroup meetings from the time Kirby was three or so until he
was 13, and though it wasn't at all necessary in the later years, I would
say, if he looked about to lose his cool about something, "Do you want to go for
a walk with me, Kirby?"
It helped to say his name. It helped to say it nicely, not in a hateful-mom
"Do you want me to get the belt" kind of tone of voice, which some of us heard
as kids--not a question, but a threat. It wasn't a threat. I wasn't going to
make him go for a walk. It was a reminder that he got and others didn't
know was a reminder. It was a reminder that breathing and walking away might
honestly feel good about then. Once in a while he'd get up and we'd go to the
car to get something, or we'd walk over to a tree to look for birds' nests, or
some unimportantish thing, but he could tell me why he was getting angry, or
say he didn't feel good and would like to go home soon, or say one kid or
another wasn't being nice with his toys. Sometimes it was something I could fix.
More often, he would say "No, I'd rather stay here." but still the growing
frustration was broken, and he got to start again from a calmer place. It
helped just that he knew that I knew he was getting frustrated. Having a witness
who had acknowledged the clues (which I might have noticed before he did)
made it easier for him to remember his surroundings instead of being so focussed
on the feelings building inside him.
Sometimes, though it wasn't as friendly as "do you want to go for a walk,"
I'd just say softly "You're not the only one here." Sometimes that was
followed by "Breathe" or "Do you want to go for a walk?"
Sandra
Mary
I don't think it's been said or implied that those who have children with
outbursts are bad parents. I think some great ideas have been offered in
regarding these situations. What some may have a problem with is a parent
sitting in the situation and allowing themselves to be part of the outburst,
or even worse, allowing another sibling to be a part of it also. Swearing in
itself isn't such a big deal to some, but when it's directed at another
person and becoming personal, I do think that inflicts damage. Whether the
parent or other child "understands" or not.
Arguing or yelling is one thing about the situation, but calling people
names and getting personal is something different and not safe for the
person on the other end.
Getting out the frustration IS a good thing, but there are better ways to do
it than cursing at mom or sister or brother.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
outbursts are bad parents. I think some great ideas have been offered in
regarding these situations. What some may have a problem with is a parent
sitting in the situation and allowing themselves to be part of the outburst,
or even worse, allowing another sibling to be a part of it also. Swearing in
itself isn't such a big deal to some, but when it's directed at another
person and becoming personal, I do think that inflicts damage. Whether the
parent or other child "understands" or not.
Arguing or yelling is one thing about the situation, but calling people
names and getting personal is something different and not safe for the
person on the other end.
Getting out the frustration IS a good thing, but there are better ways to do
it than cursing at mom or sister or brother.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/13/2003 2:47:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mummy124@... writes:
again.
I have read the posts that I can find about these outbursts but I can't seem
to find any that have ideas on what to do or how to handle them other than to
NOT allow it.
Maybe they've been eaten by yahoogroups before I could find them. If anyone
has ANY ideas on how to redirect a rage such as has been described here, I
would be very grateful to have that advice.
Thanks,
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mummy124@... writes:
> I think some great ideas have been offered inApparently yahoogroups is having major problems with delivering messages
> regarding these situations.
again.
I have read the posts that I can find about these outbursts but I can't seem
to find any that have ideas on what to do or how to handle them other than to
NOT allow it.
Maybe they've been eaten by yahoogroups before I could find them. If anyone
has ANY ideas on how to redirect a rage such as has been described here, I
would be very grateful to have that advice.
Thanks,
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren
"Great advice, and everyone keeps telling her to set personal boundries, but
no one seems to be offering some concrete solutions. How does she do this?
How would others recommend a remedy for this situation? "
Keeps telling? As in a couple of posts? You've got to remember that some of us get a digest of many posts once in a while and we read a whole lot of posts before we respond. So the conversation may be a bit slower, but these questions will get answered.
I liked what you said about removing yourself from the abusive person. I agree.
I personally have no problem telling someone "Stop that right now, I won't let you talk to me like that." And if they choose to keep it up, they choose to not have me for their driver or be in the same room. I think it's healthy for children to see that you love yourself enough to not tolerate abuse.
If they are completely out of control, figuring out long term solutions would be a high priority. Even intense people can figure out ways to not abuse those around them. Abuse is not acceptable in my world.
If a child feels a need to abuse, I feel the need to stop it.
And if this is an occasional thing, I still don't see why a person would sit there being screamed at and just wait it out.
Ren
no one seems to be offering some concrete solutions. How does she do this?
How would others recommend a remedy for this situation? "
Keeps telling? As in a couple of posts? You've got to remember that some of us get a digest of many posts once in a while and we read a whole lot of posts before we respond. So the conversation may be a bit slower, but these questions will get answered.
I liked what you said about removing yourself from the abusive person. I agree.
I personally have no problem telling someone "Stop that right now, I won't let you talk to me like that." And if they choose to keep it up, they choose to not have me for their driver or be in the same room. I think it's healthy for children to see that you love yourself enough to not tolerate abuse.
If they are completely out of control, figuring out long term solutions would be a high priority. Even intense people can figure out ways to not abuse those around them. Abuse is not acceptable in my world.
If a child feels a need to abuse, I feel the need to stop it.
And if this is an occasional thing, I still don't see why a person would sit there being screamed at and just wait it out.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/13/03 10:46:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
TeresaBnNC@... writes:
it. Usually when he wants something and can't have it. Like when he doesn't
want to leave my house. He likes to play with my boys and the stuff we have
and it is really getting late. He gets frustrated and can't express himself
yet. But he seems to be doing better, I think. At least today when you guys
talked about it and talked about coming back sometime and that you just couldn't'
stay any longer etc. It is almost like a temper tantrum but his vocabulary
is ummmm more extensive. I think you handle the little things well. That is
all I have witnessed. Just by watching the little ones I think he will outgrow
it as he learns to express himself better, and his feelings. He doesn't seem
to be calling you names, although it sounds like that in E mail, as much as
he is expressing his frustration.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
TeresaBnNC@... writes:
> He doesnt walk around calling meI haven't seen the outrage you described before but I can see just a bit of
> names every time something does not suit him. All of my children and
> I have very close, loving, healthy relationships. No one here
> except Pam G has really been with, observed, spent any amount of time
> with, my family.
it. Usually when he wants something and can't have it. Like when he doesn't
want to leave my house. He likes to play with my boys and the stuff we have
and it is really getting late. He gets frustrated and can't express himself
yet. But he seems to be doing better, I think. At least today when you guys
talked about it and talked about coming back sometime and that you just couldn't'
stay any longer etc. It is almost like a temper tantrum but his vocabulary
is ummmm more extensive. I think you handle the little things well. That is
all I have witnessed. Just by watching the little ones I think he will outgrow
it as he learns to express himself better, and his feelings. He doesn't seem
to be calling you names, although it sounds like that in E mail, as much as
he is expressing his frustration.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
> > I think some great ideas have been offered inseem
> > regarding these situations.
>
> Apparently yahoogroups is having major problems with delivering messages
> again.
>
> I have read the posts that I can find about these outbursts but I can't
> to find any that have ideas on what to do or how to handle them other thanto
> NOT allow it.anyone
>
> Maybe they've been eaten by yahoogroups before I could find them. If
> has ANY ideas on how to redirect a rage such as has been described here, IGlena,
> would be very grateful to have that advice.
I just went to the Yahoo site and looked through the messages from today.
On a quick trip through them, I found at least 5 messages that offered help.
Try 80397, 80398, 80400, 80410, and 80412. There might have been more.
It's pretty easy to check the groups for missed messages. I often have to
do it when parts of messages get dropped. (On another list, we figured out
that this has to do with long paragraphs, but nobody's figured out yet how
to fix it.)
Tia
leschke@...
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where
there is no path and leave a trail."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/13/2003 8:40:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
leschke@... writes:
Thanks for the message numbers, at the particular time I was trying to get
messages yahoo was telling me they were unavailable to try again later. Later
they were available AND I got them in my inbox!
Thanks again,
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
leschke@... writes:
> Glena,Tia,
> I just went to the Yahoo site and looked through the messages from today.
> On a quick trip through them, I found at least 5 messages that offered help.
> Try 80397, 80398, 80400, 80410, and 80412. There might have been more.
> It's pretty easy to check the groups for missed messages. I often have to
> do it when parts of messages get dropped. (On another list, we figured out
> that this has to do with long paragraphs, but nobody's figured out yet how
> to fix it.)
> Tia
>
Thanks for the message numbers, at the particular time I was trying to get
messages yahoo was telling me they were unavailable to try again later. Later
they were available AND I got them in my inbox!
Thanks again,
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/13/03 8:21:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, genant2@...
writes:
He does not use offensive language in public. I mean, he may let out a minor
swear word, in context with whats going on. ( Like saying. . "oh shit! if a
bee were after him) But he does not use the strong language unless he is in
one of those blind rages (as Pam knows). And, yes, he is getting better. It
does help alot to have others talking and encouraging him through is
frustration.. ( like Pam did today when it was time to go) He handled leaving pretty
well.. he started to get mad, but he calmed down and left pretty easily.
Although my original post was described as "detailed", evidently, I did not
give enough details. Yes, I ask him to stop screaming at us. Yes, he knows
it is "wrong" And, yes, I do talk to him at length after his anger subsides.
And, also, btw, as I stated earlier. I was simply empathizing and offering
encouragement to Shyrely. I did not ask for advice, suggestions or solutions.
I know that posting on a public group is an open invitation for others to
offer these types of responses, but, just to reiterate, I did not ask for
anyone's "help". I did ask for alternatives to handling these types of
situations when folks came on with thier psychoanalysis of my parenting and my
relationship with my son.
I really appreciate the other folks who have contributed thier own
experiences and how they deal with explosive anger. I know there are kids with this
type of personalities/dispositions. For some children, it may be excessive
crying, it may be flailing around, kicking and screaming, it may be verbal,
cursing, threatening. For the folks who seem so appalled at the harsh
language. I find that a bit funny. Words like f'ing b***. , coming from an enraged
child who is out of control, are no more abusive to me child getting mad and
holding thier breath. It is just a different means of communicating.. I AM
ANGRY. Do you not agree that the more alarm, reaction, "boundaries" I set,
in response to harsh language, the more powerful it becomes to him?
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> It is almost like a temper tantrum but his vocabularyLOL.. Yes, Pam, that is a nice way to put it.
> is ummmm more extensive.
He does not use offensive language in public. I mean, he may let out a minor
swear word, in context with whats going on. ( Like saying. . "oh shit! if a
bee were after him) But he does not use the strong language unless he is in
one of those blind rages (as Pam knows). And, yes, he is getting better. It
does help alot to have others talking and encouraging him through is
frustration.. ( like Pam did today when it was time to go) He handled leaving pretty
well.. he started to get mad, but he calmed down and left pretty easily.
Although my original post was described as "detailed", evidently, I did not
give enough details. Yes, I ask him to stop screaming at us. Yes, he knows
it is "wrong" And, yes, I do talk to him at length after his anger subsides.
And, also, btw, as I stated earlier. I was simply empathizing and offering
encouragement to Shyrely. I did not ask for advice, suggestions or solutions.
I know that posting on a public group is an open invitation for others to
offer these types of responses, but, just to reiterate, I did not ask for
anyone's "help". I did ask for alternatives to handling these types of
situations when folks came on with thier psychoanalysis of my parenting and my
relationship with my son.
I really appreciate the other folks who have contributed thier own
experiences and how they deal with explosive anger. I know there are kids with this
type of personalities/dispositions. For some children, it may be excessive
crying, it may be flailing around, kicking and screaming, it may be verbal,
cursing, threatening. For the folks who seem so appalled at the harsh
language. I find that a bit funny. Words like f'ing b***. , coming from an enraged
child who is out of control, are no more abusive to me child getting mad and
holding thier breath. It is just a different means of communicating.. I AM
ANGRY. Do you not agree that the more alarm, reaction, "boundaries" I set,
in response to harsh language, the more powerful it becomes to him?
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the_clevengers
--- In [email protected], Shyrley <shyrley@e...>
wrote:
that the behavior really bothers them? I mean, I have no problems
with people swearing, was in plenty of punk rock bands and played in
some pretty sleazy clubs, I think I've heard most of the words anyone
might choose to use. But I have to admit that if I was at a park or a
homeschooling event with someone whose child was calling their
parent, sibling, or another child a F**ing anything, I would not want
to be around that child, and I wouldn't want my kids around it. Not
so much an issue of language (my kids have heard those words, in
movies, around them, occasionally from me), but of respect. It would
disturb me, and certainly bother my kids, to hear somebody treating
someone else like that. I don't think they've ever seen that occur in
that kind of context. It would be decidedly freaky to them.
I sympathize with you in trying to deal with this. It sounds as if it
would require a lot of patience, which it sounds like you have. But I
don't think it would be unusual (and am surprised that its being
called a problem) for others to choose not to want to be around it.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
wrote:
> Yeah, I ignore it myself as long as no-one is being hurt. Itusually
> blows itself out. Plus, a child throwing a tantrum isn't reallythat
> important to me. I guess I'm pretty tolerant. Its the reactions ofis
> others that are the problem. People who think a 7 yo saying 'F***'
> the worse thing in the world and will instantly make their own kidsinto
> disrespectful little thugs.Just guessing here, but maybe they're not overly conservative, but
> Sigh.
>
> Shyrley
that the behavior really bothers them? I mean, I have no problems
with people swearing, was in plenty of punk rock bands and played in
some pretty sleazy clubs, I think I've heard most of the words anyone
might choose to use. But I have to admit that if I was at a park or a
homeschooling event with someone whose child was calling their
parent, sibling, or another child a F**ing anything, I would not want
to be around that child, and I wouldn't want my kids around it. Not
so much an issue of language (my kids have heard those words, in
movies, around them, occasionally from me), but of respect. It would
disturb me, and certainly bother my kids, to hear somebody treating
someone else like that. I don't think they've ever seen that occur in
that kind of context. It would be decidedly freaky to them.
I sympathize with you in trying to deal with this. It sounds as if it
would require a lot of patience, which it sounds like you have. But I
don't think it would be unusual (and am surprised that its being
called a problem) for others to choose not to want to be around it.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
the_clevengers
--- In [email protected], "Shannon"
<davenshan@m...> wrote:
to.
I'll have to say that allergies are a huge trigger for my son as
well. If he eats any cow's milk products, he can get into these
amazing rages and weeping spells. They just aren't present when he
doesn't eat dairy. I mean, he has the usual kid angry moments, but
not these overwhelming emotional outbursts. The last time he got some
ice cream at a birthday party, the next day he was just a wreck. In
the middle of screaming and crying, he was saying "I feel so out of
control!". My heart was really going out to him, but at that point
there's not much we can do until it works its way through. Within a
day or two, he's back to normal. If I had a child who was
consistently having rages, allergies would be one thing I would
definitely check out!
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
<davenshan@m...> wrote:
> Oh now the code word sounds like a good thing. Connor goes off thedeep end
> too ~ not with the abusive language. But yelling and totally out ofallergic
> control. This usually happens if he has eaten foods he's
to.
I'll have to say that allergies are a huge trigger for my son as
well. If he eats any cow's milk products, he can get into these
amazing rages and weeping spells. They just aren't present when he
doesn't eat dairy. I mean, he has the usual kid angry moments, but
not these overwhelming emotional outbursts. The last time he got some
ice cream at a birthday party, the next day he was just a wreck. In
the middle of screaming and crying, he was saying "I feel so out of
control!". My heart was really going out to him, but at that point
there's not much we can do until it works its way through. Within a
day or two, he's back to normal. If I had a child who was
consistently having rages, allergies would be one thing I would
definitely check out!
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/13/2003 10:18:33 PM Central Standard Time,
tri_mom@... writes:
great talk. But when we got there, on the table in the back was a book called
something like The Volcano in My Tummy. I picked it up to glance through and
then realized we haven't had any real outbursts, the angry, screaming,
crying, unending kind, since we eliminated artificial coloring and flavors. My son
has it on occasion and we have to watch all his emotional triggers until the
effects wear off. But these instances have been few and far between since
we've detoxed. Allergies and sensitivities were the answers for our family, too.
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tri_mom@... writes:
> If I had a child who wasYou know, my husband and I were at a talk tonight by David Albert. It was a
> consistently having rages, allergies would be one thing I would
> definitely check out!
>
great talk. But when we got there, on the table in the back was a book called
something like The Volcano in My Tummy. I picked it up to glance through and
then realized we haven't had any real outbursts, the angry, screaming,
crying, unending kind, since we eliminated artificial coloring and flavors. My son
has it on occasion and we have to watch all his emotional triggers until the
effects wear off. But these instances have been few and far between since
we've detoxed. Allergies and sensitivities were the answers for our family, too.
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/13/03 11:11:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tri_mom@... writes:
having a temper tantrum I would not leave. I would stick around and try to
help. And try to figure things out when they were calmer etc. I think the
language is there because he has language to draw from to express himself. If he
were a toddler it would probably look different. He would be on the floor
kicking and screaming. If he were saying "I hate you" to his Mom I would believe
that he indeed did not hate his mother but was frustrated by something and
could not express his feelings well, and might hate her in the moment.
Just a couple of thoughts.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tri_mom@... writes:
> I sympathize with you in trying to deal with this. It sounds as if itI agree that other's might not want to be around it. But if my child were
> would require a lot of patience, which it sounds like you have. But I
> don't think it would be unusual (and am surprised that its being
> called a problem) for others to choose not to want to be around it.
>
>
having a temper tantrum I would not leave. I would stick around and try to
help. And try to figure things out when they were calmer etc. I think the
language is there because he has language to draw from to express himself. If he
were a toddler it would probably look different. He would be on the floor
kicking and screaming. If he were saying "I hate you" to his Mom I would believe
that he indeed did not hate his mother but was frustrated by something and
could not express his feelings well, and might hate her in the moment.
Just a couple of thoughts.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/13/03 9:23:41 PM, TeresaBnNC@... writes:
<< Although my original post was described as "detailed", evidently, I did
not
give enough details. Yes, I ask him to stop screaming at us. Yes, he knows
it is "wrong" And, yes, I do talk to him at length after his anger
subsides. >>
The original post said this:
"He kicked the back of my seat and he continued to scream for us to shut the
hell up.. sometimes switching hell for F****. I looked at Anna and she and I
did not say another word.. not a mumble, not a whisper... nothing.. for ( I
clocked it) 20 minutes. He screamed the whole time for us to shut up.. we
messed him up, we ruined his game.. etc etc. I think when he finally
realized
that no one had spoke a word in a long time. he switched to my driving.. He
started cussing me for swerving, "driving crazy".. going too fast.. I calmly
said. "JP,I am driving as carefully as I can" Then, she started with the
shut
the hell up again. "
That doesn't sound like you asking him to stop. Specifically you voluntarily
reported you said nothing for twenty minutes, and THEN he started in on your
driving. [By "she started with the shut the hell up" I'm not sure if you
meant "he" or if you meant your daughter. That is the sort of proofreading
problem referred to in the past.]
<<And, also, btw, as I stated earlier. I was simply empathizing and offering
encouragement to Shyrely. I did not ask for advice, suggestions or
solutions.
I know that posting on a public group is an open invitation for others to
offer these types of responses, but, just to reiterate, I did not ask for
anyone's "help". >>
"4. If you have a belief or practice that you don't want held up to public
examination, don't post it to the list. "
(From the posting policies of this list.)
<<I did ask for alternatives to handling these types of
situations when folks came on with thier psychoanalysis of my parenting and
my
relationship with my son. >>
"4. If you have a belief or practice that you don't want held up to public
examination, don't post it to the list. "
<< For the folks who seem so appalled at the harsh
language. I find that a bit funny. Words like f'ing b***. , coming from
an enraged
child who is out of control, are no more abusive to me child getting mad and
holding thier breath. >>
One holding his own breath is not abusing another person.
One yelling "fucking bitch" either at or in the presence of his mother and
sister is being abusive.
<< Do you not agree that the more alarm, reaction, "boundaries" I set,
in response to harsh language, the more powerful it becomes to him?>>
Since you've specifically asked, no I don't agree.
If your ignoring it causes it to go on for twenty minutes and then get worse
(as you reported in your own words, quoted above), then it must not have been
powerful enough for him yet. He was escalating. You endured a flood of abuse
quietly. You caused your daughter to have to suffer it too. That's not
psychoanalysis.
A mom at a homeschooling activity here a year and some ago let her son hit
and kick her and didn't say a word, didn't even look at him, just kept on with
her conversation with other moms. He had hit me just moments before that.
Accidently? Could've been claimed, except for the dirty knowing look he gave
me when I said "Don't hit me." A homeschooling group dissolved over people's
inability to deal with that boy and his mother's oblivion.
The mother, by ignoring him, while he was hitting her in front of eight or
ten moms and 20 kids, gave him the clear message that hitting was okay with her.
It might have made her feel good to think that by ignoring it she wasn't
making it powerful, but she was enabling him to continue and to feel justified and
permitted. Turns out he had hit lots of the kids, mostly when parents
weren't looking.
-=-For the folks who seem so appalled at the harsh language. I find that a
bit funny. -=-
I don't think it's funny. Out of control is out of control, and using harsh
language while out of control can get an adult arrested. It's worth pointing
that out to a child.
-=-I have to admit that if I was at a park or a
homeschooling event with someone whose child was calling their
parent, sibling, or another child a F**ing anything, I would not want
to be around that child, and I wouldn't want my kids around it. Not
so much an issue of language (my kids have heard those words, in
movies, around them, occasionally from me), but of respect. -=-
Me too.
My kids have asked to leave, too, when parents are being mean to kids,
verbally or physically. Holly got nearly sick one day when a mom spanked a kid in
WalMart.
Whichever way abuse and lack of control goes, it's harmful to the target,
harmful to the person doing the speaking or yelling or hitting, and also to those
who have to witness it.
-=- But if my child were having a temper tantrum I would not leave. I would
stick around and try to help.-=-
For me, it would depend where we were or whose house and whether they WANT me
to take him to a less public/intrusive place, and whether he's disturbing the
peace of others.
If someone in my home were yelling at his mother and the mother chose to sit
and take it, *I* would tell him to stop it. I've done it before. Keith
Henry, a teenager whose mom is a homeschooler, was haranguing his mom about some
money she was supposed to have gotten for him and hadn't yet. I told him if he
wanted to talk to his mom that way he needed to do it at HER house, not at my
house. He was stunned, but I wasn't joking. (He wasn't homeschooled, but
her three younger kids are.) He stopped.
I have more right to peace for my children, and peace in my house, than other
people have the right to yell or to kick or to spew tirades of nasty insult.
Sandra
<< Although my original post was described as "detailed", evidently, I did
not
give enough details. Yes, I ask him to stop screaming at us. Yes, he knows
it is "wrong" And, yes, I do talk to him at length after his anger
subsides. >>
The original post said this:
"He kicked the back of my seat and he continued to scream for us to shut the
hell up.. sometimes switching hell for F****. I looked at Anna and she and I
did not say another word.. not a mumble, not a whisper... nothing.. for ( I
clocked it) 20 minutes. He screamed the whole time for us to shut up.. we
messed him up, we ruined his game.. etc etc. I think when he finally
realized
that no one had spoke a word in a long time. he switched to my driving.. He
started cussing me for swerving, "driving crazy".. going too fast.. I calmly
said. "JP,I am driving as carefully as I can" Then, she started with the
shut
the hell up again. "
That doesn't sound like you asking him to stop. Specifically you voluntarily
reported you said nothing for twenty minutes, and THEN he started in on your
driving. [By "she started with the shut the hell up" I'm not sure if you
meant "he" or if you meant your daughter. That is the sort of proofreading
problem referred to in the past.]
<<And, also, btw, as I stated earlier. I was simply empathizing and offering
encouragement to Shyrely. I did not ask for advice, suggestions or
solutions.
I know that posting on a public group is an open invitation for others to
offer these types of responses, but, just to reiterate, I did not ask for
anyone's "help". >>
"4. If you have a belief or practice that you don't want held up to public
examination, don't post it to the list. "
(From the posting policies of this list.)
<<I did ask for alternatives to handling these types of
situations when folks came on with thier psychoanalysis of my parenting and
my
relationship with my son. >>
"4. If you have a belief or practice that you don't want held up to public
examination, don't post it to the list. "
<< For the folks who seem so appalled at the harsh
language. I find that a bit funny. Words like f'ing b***. , coming from
an enraged
child who is out of control, are no more abusive to me child getting mad and
holding thier breath. >>
One holding his own breath is not abusing another person.
One yelling "fucking bitch" either at or in the presence of his mother and
sister is being abusive.
<< Do you not agree that the more alarm, reaction, "boundaries" I set,
in response to harsh language, the more powerful it becomes to him?>>
Since you've specifically asked, no I don't agree.
If your ignoring it causes it to go on for twenty minutes and then get worse
(as you reported in your own words, quoted above), then it must not have been
powerful enough for him yet. He was escalating. You endured a flood of abuse
quietly. You caused your daughter to have to suffer it too. That's not
psychoanalysis.
A mom at a homeschooling activity here a year and some ago let her son hit
and kick her and didn't say a word, didn't even look at him, just kept on with
her conversation with other moms. He had hit me just moments before that.
Accidently? Could've been claimed, except for the dirty knowing look he gave
me when I said "Don't hit me." A homeschooling group dissolved over people's
inability to deal with that boy and his mother's oblivion.
The mother, by ignoring him, while he was hitting her in front of eight or
ten moms and 20 kids, gave him the clear message that hitting was okay with her.
It might have made her feel good to think that by ignoring it she wasn't
making it powerful, but she was enabling him to continue and to feel justified and
permitted. Turns out he had hit lots of the kids, mostly when parents
weren't looking.
-=-For the folks who seem so appalled at the harsh language. I find that a
bit funny. -=-
I don't think it's funny. Out of control is out of control, and using harsh
language while out of control can get an adult arrested. It's worth pointing
that out to a child.
-=-I have to admit that if I was at a park or a
homeschooling event with someone whose child was calling their
parent, sibling, or another child a F**ing anything, I would not want
to be around that child, and I wouldn't want my kids around it. Not
so much an issue of language (my kids have heard those words, in
movies, around them, occasionally from me), but of respect. -=-
Me too.
My kids have asked to leave, too, when parents are being mean to kids,
verbally or physically. Holly got nearly sick one day when a mom spanked a kid in
WalMart.
Whichever way abuse and lack of control goes, it's harmful to the target,
harmful to the person doing the speaking or yelling or hitting, and also to those
who have to witness it.
-=- But if my child were having a temper tantrum I would not leave. I would
stick around and try to help.-=-
For me, it would depend where we were or whose house and whether they WANT me
to take him to a less public/intrusive place, and whether he's disturbing the
peace of others.
If someone in my home were yelling at his mother and the mother chose to sit
and take it, *I* would tell him to stop it. I've done it before. Keith
Henry, a teenager whose mom is a homeschooler, was haranguing his mom about some
money she was supposed to have gotten for him and hadn't yet. I told him if he
wanted to talk to his mom that way he needed to do it at HER house, not at my
house. He was stunned, but I wasn't joking. (He wasn't homeschooled, but
her three younger kids are.) He stopped.
I have more right to peace for my children, and peace in my house, than other
people have the right to yell or to kick or to spew tirades of nasty insult.
Sandra
Shannon
This has been the best 9 months of my sons 6 1 / 2 years. Hes been off of
all the allergic foods and he and we feel so much better. Before this
happened, I never wouldve guessed we had food allergies. But his
personality, weight, and disposition tell all.
Shan
-----Original Message-----
From: the_clevengers
I'll have to say that allergies are a huge trigger for my son as
well. If he eats any cow's milk products, he can get into these
amazing rages and weeping spells. They just aren't present when he
doesn't eat dairy. I mean, he has the usual kid angry moments, but
not these overwhelming emotional outbursts. The last time he got some
ice cream at a birthday party, the next day he was just a wreck. In
the middle of screaming and crying, he was saying "I feel so out of
control!". My heart was really going out to him, but at that point
there's not much we can do until it works its way through. Within a
day or two, he's back to normal. If I had a child who was
consistently having rages, allergies would be one thing I would
definitely check out!
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
all the allergic foods and he and we feel so much better. Before this
happened, I never wouldve guessed we had food allergies. But his
personality, weight, and disposition tell all.
Shan
-----Original Message-----
From: the_clevengers
I'll have to say that allergies are a huge trigger for my son as
well. If he eats any cow's milk products, he can get into these
amazing rages and weeping spells. They just aren't present when he
doesn't eat dairy. I mean, he has the usual kid angry moments, but
not these overwhelming emotional outbursts. The last time he got some
ice cream at a birthday party, the next day he was just a wreck. In
the middle of screaming and crying, he was saying "I feel so out of
control!". My heart was really going out to him, but at that point
there's not much we can do until it works its way through. Within a
day or two, he's back to normal. If I had a child who was
consistently having rages, allergies would be one thing I would
definitely check out!
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Saturday, September 13, 2003, at 05:20 PM, genant2@... wrote:
vocabulary that will let them express feelings articulately -- and
being able to do that will, as Pam G points out, help avoid frustration
that can lead to a meltdown.
"I Can Problem Solve" by Myrna B. Shure
-pam
> He gets frustrated and can't express himselfThere is a book that focuses a lot on helping kids develop the
> yet.
vocabulary that will let them express feelings articulately -- and
being able to do that will, as Pam G points out, help avoid frustration
that can lead to a meltdown.
"I Can Problem Solve" by Myrna B. Shure
-pam