Stepheny Cappel

Hello to all, The most wonderful thing I saw at the conference was two small children and their mothers right outside the toddler room. One of the children had apparently reached out and grabbed the other child's craft and it had broken. What a wonderful way the mothers handled it. I had never, and I mean never seen any interaction like that in my life! The child that broke the toy was immediatly swept up on her mothers lap, and asked some specific questions as to her feelings,, ( I would like those questions for future reference) the other child was allowed her feelings and the mother was sincerely sympathetic... within minutes the offender was going to get new styrofoam things to help the other child, who had suddenly decided on her own to pick up the pieces and put her craft back together... then it was settled. No embarrassment, no cut downs, it makes me want to cry for some reason. I loved it. This is how I want to interact with my children.

My dd 10 has taken on some children down the road, for some reason she thinks they should be obedient to her... I asked her why last night and she said because they have to listen to somebody... yeesh, I'm watching her and knowing she is acting like Me?? I don't want to own it but I do, where else did it come from. Trying to talk to her about it makes her yell sternly at me, I can't seem to get her to leave them alone or reason with me,and then the other children tease her and of course seem to do things to make it worse. We are still deschooling from a relaxed homeschool, and trying to remove the authoritarian because I am the parent etc... I need the right words to speak to her... The children down the street go to school each day then come home and are free to go whereever, do what ever etc.. come to our house for fun, they are 6,5 and 2. DD is trying to control them, just trying to look for underlying reasons and filter all this out.. why she feels she needs this control. Thanks to the moms at the conference that showed me that it can work.

Stepheny






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<Hello to all, The most wonderful thing I saw at the conference was two
small children and their mothers right outside the toddler room. One of
the children had apparently reached out and grabbed the other child's
craft and it had broken. What a wonderful way the mothers handled it>>



Hello from the mother of the grabber! Well I have to say that I am very
honored that you should have this positive and kind opinion of this
incident. At the time I was pretty horrified at Jayn grabbing the
Styrofoam sculpture from the hands of the maker, and felt like the whole
thing was a failure of my parenting (evidently seeing it as more serious
than was needful) - basically I felt I should have seen the mischief
gleam in Jayn's eyes moments before the offending grab and
diverted/prevented her. I wish I could remember what the questions were
- I know I wanted to understand why she did it - the answer was because
it was pretty and colorful. The other girl was still too offended to
accept the offering of new bits, but that was OK too - I notice she
invented a clever safety holder out of some plastic cups to prevent
future damages. It usually takes Jayn a few minutes to become
sympathetic to someone else's pain that she has caused, although she
generally comes around and wants to apologize later. She will tell me
out of the blue hours or days later that she is sorry she did whatever.



Part of my concern (overreaction?) about why she acted as she did stems
from other issues here at home. Some of you were kind enough to listen
to me rant about the neighbor's children. I felt like the grabbing was
the kind of new negative behavior she had been evidencing after playing
with the little girl (almost exactly two years older than Jayn). From
this girl Jayn learned to say "You're not my best friend and I don't
love you" to another dear friend, completely unprovoked. When I asked
Jayn if it was true she told me "no". She also could give no reason for
saying it - I suspect she was trying to find out what would happen.



I think what I resent most is that I hate myself for disliking this girl
so much. Neither my DH nor I like her at all, although we don't mind her
little brother. She is full of irritating behaviors like really
bragging/boasting, and is very dominating and manipulative of Jayn (the
main problem!).



She threatens to leave if Jayn doesn't "share" - in other words
immediately hand over to her whatever toy (of Jayn's!) that Jayn may be
using that Renee wants. She has actually gone to the door, paused and
then looked back at Jayn - who ran over to her with the coveted doll
shoes and begged her to stay. The next time Renee started that I
intervened. I told her she could go or stay as her choice but not to
threaten Jayn with it. When she tells Jayn "You have to share",
something she has learned from her home life, I say, "No Jayn chooses to
share her toys with you." I know she is the way she is because the
parents are "ordinary" - time outs, hauling them around by the ear,
withdrawal of privileges, punishments for not "behaving", I have heard
the mother hit Renee because she was disappointed one day that Jayn was
napping and started to cry and whine. They were at the end of the
balcony and into their house very quickly, and I had no time to say
anything, and did not know what to say either. I have heard her tell
Renee that she was being sneaky, when she went and got a candy - she was
acting surreptitious about it, of course in a home with food
restrictions.



They evidently believe that you will spoil a child with gifts. Renee had
been talking at length about getting Mary-Kate and Ashley Barbie dolls
for her birthday (October) with immense anticipation and joy. I am
fortunate to live very near to the Mattel factory outlet where all their
stuff is pennies on the dollar if you go on close-out Wednesday. The
MK&A were there for $6 each (T-R-Us $15-20). Now I know that $6 is a lot
to some, but this was after all a special present. So I told the mother
about the store, collected a card for her to have the address, and found
out soon that they had gone there. They bought Renee the Ashley doll,
but bought the MK doll for her cousin, keeping it in the house until
said cousin could visit. Renee must have mentioned it to Jayn every time
she saw her, because Jayn kept on telling me, "The Mary-Kate is for
Angel". Renee has repeatedly said that Jayn has all the toys she, ie
Renee, wants. I am convinced that she was only coming here in order to
use Jayn's toys. She once asked me to tell Jayn to stop "bothering" her
while she was trying to play with Jayn's barbies. I told her that Jayn
was acting that way because she wanted them to play together, and that
we were not a toy store for her to come to and not play with Jayn. Renee
then started directing Jayn's play in a way that irked me, but Jayn
accepted for the time being. I am stuck with just not wanting the
wretched child near Jayn, and feeling sorry for her too.



I was very stressed about the friendship, which at first I had welcomed,
and spent some time looking up related topics on the message boards and
in the archives. I felt torn between wanting Jayn to live in the freedom
of having her own choices of friends, and feeling that this particular
friendship was affecting her badly. She seemed stressed, and unusually
emotional. I was worried because I know that the supervision/early
intervention at Renee's house is lacking. The kids usually seem to be
sitting in the kids' bedroom alone, while mother is in the other room. I
had several times come in to find what she called "Renee and Jayn
playing together" was three children engaged in three separate
activities. I notice that Jayn will withdraw into her own play when she
is overwhelmed by the bossiness.



I felt like I was somehow letting down the philosophy of freedom if I
intervened. The feeling of being ripped apart was destroying my peace of
mind, especially since most of the posts I found were suggesting letting
the children make their own errors. Sandra's posts from the past had
accounts of things she has said to other children, and there were
examples of Holly and others who seemed so clear eyed about the toxic
behaviors they encounter in non-unschoolers. But of course they are all
so much older than Jayn.



I had to do some soul searching and wondered if I was just having
trouble letting go - but I realized that I have these feelings of dread,
and fear, only with this family, and no others. Jayn started being
violent towards other children at the park, refusing to share her sand
toys, which have been free for all for about year hitherto, and
screaming in their faces. I felt like this other child had taken my
innocent darling and sullied her.



Finally (about 3 weeks of the relationship) I knew I had to take a stand
-I decided to limit the access. I noticed that Jayn would pull away and
start engaging in a private activity anything from 45 minutes to an hour
after they started playing. So I went to see Renee's mother and told her
that I felt the age difference was causing stress to Jayn, she was not
having enough time to play by herself, and her behaviors were becoming
affected. I think it was disappointing to her, as she may have been
enjoying the break she was getting when her kids were here for
three/four hours. I tried to focus on it being Jayn's and my issue,
rather than appear to be criticizing Renee. I could hardly go up to her
and say, "I hate your rotten kid" even if that were a true
representation of my more ambivalent feelings.



Her response was to ask how Jayn's behavior had changed. I think she was
getting ready to give me some advice, but I didn't choose to have that
conversation. Anyway she said she'd collect Renee in 15 minutes, and I
said, "Well I was thinking more like one hour instead of 3 or 4". I
think she may have still been offended because the amount of contact
dropped off significantly. Shucks.



A couple of days later I spoke to Renee's father, and actually told him
how it stressed Jayn to be dominated all the time. He told me that Renee
had been dominated by the cousin, Angel (2 years older again) and was
repeating behaviors she had learned. Their answer to the problem
behaviors they see was to possibly put her into day care until school
starts - for more kid interaction. I don't think they did, and she goes
into Kindergarden tomorrow. (They (teachers & parents) decided to "hold
her back" to kindergarden rather than 1st grade that her age would
allow).



Jayn had been basically kept away from them by a number of strategies
with my dh and I, for about 2 weeks prior to the conference. I saw her
sweet nature come back, and she stopped being unusually violent. She
often asked to play with Renee and Jonah, but we were always going out,
or they were.



Now we are back home. She spent an hour swimming with them and became a
screamer. She spent 20 minutes in their house, and immediately her
personality changed. She actually kicked Jonah (4yo) and screamed at
him. The mother phoned me to come and get her, but was more upset that
she had "told" (ordered) Jayn to apologize, and Jayn would not, than
that the kicking had happened at all, that Jonah was crying, and there
was no attempt to get to the bottom of it. I came in, knelt down and
held Jayn close while I comforted Jonah and heard what he had to say,
then asked Jayn not to kick him again. I asked her if she would tell me
why she had kicked Jonah, but she said "no". I told Jonah I was sorry
his feelings and his belly had been hurt. Meanwhile Renee was standing
by, and the mother kept going on about how she had told Jayn to say she
was sorry. I told the mother that we don't try to force Jayn to
apologize before she is ready and that she usually does later. Jayn
agreed not to kick Jonah again, and we left.



A few minutes at home, and Jayn was ready to tell me why she kicked
Jonah. He had been knocking down their (the girls') little town they had
made with Polly Pocket dolls. We spent some time discussing alternative
strategies for Jayn to enact in the future should something similar
occur again other than kicking. This shows me that the supervision is
still lacking, Jonah's need for space in his own room is ignored, Renee
was ready to see Jayn get into trouble and didn't care to speak up with
the preamble to the kicking even when she heard me ask Jayn why, and I
can't trust Tania to parent in the way I would like, unlike pretty much
all the parents I saw at the Conference. I should add that to my
knowledge Jayn has seen one child kicking out in anger in her whole life
- guess who - Jonah.



I am also concerned about the kind of parenting that Jayn is witnessing.
She likes Tania, and wants to be her friend. I wonder what she thinks
when she sees someone whom she admires using violent repressive
parenting - name calling, shaming, punishments, removal of "privileges",
and control. Yet how can I ask Jayn about it without being leading or
seeming to be criticizing. I notice that it is always Jayn who is the
supplicant, and that Renee never comes here now.



The end point is that Jayn is only three and a half. Even I sometimes
forget how young she is because she is tall and verbal. She has been
sheltered from day care, and the vast majority (up 'til now) of her
other kid interactions are with other homeschoolers (mostly relaxed unit
study types but wonderful gentle parents). I don't think that as yet she
has the emotional experience or maturity to stand up to the onslaught of
a domineering personality.



I wanted to be able to trust her to take care of her needs, but right
now I feel like that would be like letting her drink from a bottle of
poison. I wish the behavior influence could work the other way, as some
of you have witnessed in your dealings with other kids, but I just don't
think it will right now. I have a horror of being intrusive into other
people's lives, so I would not give parenting advice to them unasked. I
am at the point where I can hardly wait to buy a free standing house and
move.



Well if you got this far, my hat's off to you. Thank you for listening.
My husband kept saying that I should ask the group for advice, as I
frantically searched the archives and cried every night - this was weeks
ago before I made my fateful decision to try to control my child's
relationship with this other. At the time I felt like the worst parent
in the world because just being me couldn't seem to counteract the bad
stuff Jayn was getting. I wished I could say the one right thing that
would suddenly turn Renee into the kind of child that I would like to be
Jayn's friend. Most shameful of all, I am glad that this child is going
to school. She will be away for hours every day, and then they will need
their family time. I hope she makes a ton of other friends and drops
Jayn like a hot potato.



The journey continues.

Robyn Coburn













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shyrley

Heather has made Jayn a doll plus some clothes and she's anxious to send
them.
Can you email me offlist and we'll talk addresses and stuff.
Ta

Shyrley

>
>

Heidi

wow, Robyn. That's quite a situation to deal with.

Even though the goal is to let kids choose their friends, a three and
a half year old...well, does she have the discernment and experience
to know that Renee and her family are not good for her? poor little
things, all of them.

I'd be keeping busy with lots of outside activities. Maybe!!! you
could go over with Jayn to visit with Renee's mom while the kids
play! Then she would see some alternatives to the uncompassionate
parenting style she seems to be exhibiting. People learn best by
example, and you might be able to influence that mom mightily, by
spending time with her and the kids together. But it doesn't sound
like a lot of time with this bully child is healthy for Jayn.

It's amazing how behavior can rub off, innit? We've seen it with
Katie.

blessings, HeidiC


--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
> <<Hello to all, The most wonderful thing I saw at the conference
was two
> small children and their mothers right outside the toddler room.
One of
> the children had apparently reached out and grabbed the other
child's
> craft and it had broken. What a wonderful way the mothers handled
it>>
>
>
>
> Hello from the mother of the grabber! Well I have to say that I am
very
> honored that you should have this positive and kind opinion of this
> incident. At the time I was pretty horrified at Jayn grabbing the
> Styrofoam sculpture from the hands of the maker, and felt like the
whole
> thing was a failure of my parenting (evidently seeing it as more
serious
> than was needful) - basically I felt I should have seen the mischief
> gleam in Jayn's eyes moments before the offending grab and
> diverted/prevented her. I wish I could remember what the questions
were
> - I know I wanted to understand why she did it - the answer was
because
> it was pretty and colorful. The other girl was still too offended to
> accept the offering of new bits, but that was OK too - I notice she
> invented a clever safety holder out of some plastic cups to prevent
> future damages. It usually takes Jayn a few minutes to become
> sympathetic to someone else's pain that she has caused, although she
> generally comes around and wants to apologize later. She will tell
me
> out of the blue hours or days later that she is sorry she did
whatever.
>
>
>
> Part of my concern (overreaction?) about why she acted as she did
stems
> from other issues here at home. Some of you were kind enough to
listen
> to me rant about the neighbor's children. I felt like the grabbing
was
> the kind of new negative behavior she had been evidencing after
playing
> with the little girl (almost exactly two years older than Jayn).

Robyn Coburn

<<Maybe!!! you
could go over with Jayn to visit with Renee's mom while the kids
play!>>



If only Jayn did not so emphatically say, "Go HOME!" She is so proud of
being independent herself.

Fact is, if I were there I would want to be hovering near where I could
hear the children, as I do in my place. On the occasions when I have
stayed there I have felt like I was cramping the kids style, and
interfering with whatever it was that Tania wanted to get on with.
Sometimes she helps them play dress up - something Jayn loves to do. I
can't listen to them and talk to Tania at the same time.

I don't want to get sucked into a school conversation either, since most
people assume that is the main topic of interest amongst all parents.
The only reason I know about Renee going to Kindergarten is because
Tania told my DH at length while I was in the kitchen. I don't do school
conversations, unless someone asks me about homeschooling or
Unschooling.

We all have to live here, share the pool, and the laundry, pass each
other near the gates etc. I just want to keep our distance without
creating tension for all the kids.

Robyn Coburn











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

oh, I wasn't picturing hovering...just sitting at the table chatting
w/Tania while the kids play wherever...then, when something comes up,
you handle it in your fashion, thus showing Tania a compassionate
alternative.

but if the other mom isn't into visiting...what can ya do

blessings, HeidiC


--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
> <<Maybe!!! you
> could go over with Jayn to visit with Renee's mom while the kids
> play!>>
>
>
>
> If only Jayn did not so emphatically say, "Go HOME!" She is so
proud of
> being independent herself.
>
> Fact is, if I were there I would want to be hovering near where I
could
> hear the children, as I do in my place. On the occasions when I have
> stayed there I have felt like I was cramping the kids style, and
> interfering with whatever it was that Tania wanted to get on with.
> Sometimes she helps them play dress up - something Jayn loves to
do. I
> can't listen to them and talk to Tania at the same time.
>
> I don't want to get sucked into a school conversation either, since
most
> people assume that is the main topic of interest amongst all
parents.
> The only reason I know about Renee going to Kindergarten is because
> Tania told my DH at length while I was in the kitchen. I don't do
school
> conversations, unless someone asks me about homeschooling or
> Unschooling.
>
> We all have to live here, share the pool, and the laundry, pass each
> other near the gates etc. I just want to keep our distance without
> creating tension for all the kids.
>
> Robyn Coburn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]