Pam Hartley

----------
>From: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-Discussion] Digest Number 3958
>Date: Sun, Aug 31, 2003, 11:45 AM
>

>> Real life, kids don't make contracts.
>>
>> Sandra
>
> Lots of kids sign contracts. Emancipated minors have the right to
> sign contracts. More kids would seek emancipated minor status if
> they knew they could make their own decisions.

99.9% of kids (a statistic I just handily made up, but probably fairly
accurate) DO NOT sign contracts. A handful of emancipated minors who have
been judged competent to make their own decisions doesn't change the
applicability of Sandra's post.

> I'm sorry, but I just don't understand what is wrong with letting
> kids be responsible for their own actions. If I signed a contract
> specifying that I promised to do something, I would do it, because I
> believe it is unethical to not fulfill a contractual agreement that I
> freely entered into.

Great. But that's you. You can talk to your children about your ethics. You
can model your ethics. But they are still your ethics and not theirs, and
attempting to force them to BE theirs isn't the way to produce an ethical
human being.

> Now what is a child learning when he is
> allowed to make a choice but not allowed to experience the
> consequences of that choice?

Consequences are interesting things. There are natural consequences in life
(blow in a dog's face long enough, he'll probably bite you) and imposed
consequences (try to quit badminton lessons and Mom forces you to keep
going). Kids (and adults) learn from either type, but WHAT they learn is
different. With the first, they learn one thing that will make a dog bite
and will probably see the sense in avoiding it. In the second, they learn
that if they make a mistake their parent will not help them out of it, and
they learn something entirely different.

> If your child asks you if he can paint a picture, and you say yes,
> but specify that he has to clean up the mess when he is done, are you
> going to then clean up the mess for him because when it's time to do
> the actual work of clean up, he wines about having to do his part,
> which was stated beforehand? Or would you say yes to his
> request to paint without making him responsible in any way for the
> clean-up? When you and your child make this agreement about the
> paint, that is a contract. Your child gets the privilege of painting
> in return for fulfilling his responsibility to clean up. We involve
> our children in contracts all the time, we just don't make them sign
> on the dotted line.

Some of us also help with the clean up, or kindly clean up for them if they
say afterwards, "I'm too tired." Our family helps each other. This morning,
as I was cleaning rabbit cages and trying to cope with a dozen cheerfully
leaping 5 week old bunnies, I asked for help from my daughter (who was busy
doing something else) and she gave that help, very willingly. Later, her
sister needed assistance with a paint bottle. I helped her. Sometime after
that, my oldest (8) came to me and said, "Next time you wash dishes will you
show me how? I want to learn."

Instead of badgering each other to fulfill our contractual obligations,
we're just nice to each other as a matter of policy. Works for us.

Pam

Julie Bogart

> If your child asks you if he can paint a picture, and you say yes,
> but specify that he has to clean up the mess when he is done,
are you
> going to then clean up the mess for him because when it's
time to do
> the actual work of clean up, he wines about having to do his
part,
> which was stated beforehand? Or would you say yes to his
> request to paint without making him responsible in any way for
the
> clean-up? When you and your child make this agreement
about the
> paint, that is a contract. Your child gets the privilege of painting
> in return for fulfilling his responsibility to clean up. We involve
> our children in contracts all the time, we just don't make them
sign
> on the dotted line.

Here's where I see the issue.

Painting is something wholly worth doing whether the child
cleans it up or not. To set up painting time as something only to
be done if the child is willing to clean it up will either create a liar
(a child who paints but doesn't clean up after saying he or she
would) or more oftne than not, a non-painting child. Kids don't
like clean up. It overwhelms them. There is the wshing of
brushes, the throwing away of papers, the putting caps back on
finicky paint bottles, the wiping of the table, the hanging of
pictures to dry out of the way, the stacking of extrra papers neatly
in a cabinet...

We forget how naturally all this organization and clean up comes
to us adults. My boys wouldn't play with Legos if I required them
to clean them all up. It feels like too big a burden. But I think Lego
playing is imminently more important than scooping hundreds of
tiny plastic pieces up so I always help them to do it. And you
know what? I am better at cleaning them up than they are.

So I don't make clean up contracts (even with my teens). I want
them to create, I want them to play and I want them to feel free to
use the tools in our house. when the messes rise to an
unacceptable level for my peace of mind, I dig in to clean what
bugs me most and I ask for help. I don't guilt (usually, unless I'm
in the middle of PMS <g>) but I say my needs clearly and ask for
when someone might be free to help. I often get good
responses for that. I may even say: "Hey I see all your dolls and
their clothing on the couches. Can you collect them and I'll put
them away?"

I try to think of it as pitching in together. Have I ever been
resentful of how messy it's gotten at times? Of course. But I try to
remember my philosophical beliefs first. That always helps me.

Julie

Julie Solich

Kids don't like clean up. It overwhelms them

It is overwhelming. Even for adults at times. I have homeschooling friends
who do very little art/craft because they hate having to clean up
afterwards. We get together every couple of weeks with a few families and
it's great, not only because we have a lot of fun but because it is easier
to clean up when there are 3 or 4 mums helping out.

Julie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Solich

>> My boys wouldn't play with Legos if I required them to clean them all
up. It feels like too big a burden. But I think Lego playing is imminently
more important than scooping hundreds of tiny plastic pieces up so I always
help them to do it. And you know what? I am better at cleaning them up than
they are.>>

We have a lego blanket. It makes it easier to keep track of all the little
pieces and to put it away you simply each take a corner and pour it into the
crate. It also means that if the boys don't clean up, it takes only a few
seconds on my part to do the job.

Julie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary

From: "Julie Solich" <mjsolich@...>

<< We have a lego blanket. It makes it easier to keep track of all the
little
pieces and to put it away you simply each take a corner and pour it into
the
crate. It also means that if the boys don't clean up, it takes only a few
seconds on my part to do the job.>>


You know how you hear something and smack your head and think "now why
didn't I think of doing that?" Well I just had one of those moments. A lego
blanket!!!! Would work great when the kids take out not only those but
marbles and links and beads, etc. Can't wait to try it out and I bet the
kids will get a kick out of it. Thanks.

Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com

Heidi

--- In [email protected], "Mary" <mummy124@b...>
wrote:
> From: "Julie Solich" <mjsolich@i...>
>
> << We have a lego blanket.


A lego
> blanket!!!! Would work great when the kids take out not only those
but
> marbles and links and beads, etc. Can't wait to try it out and I
bet the
> kids will get a kick out of it. Thanks.
>
> Mary B.
> http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com


I know a mom who has a big scoop for legos. It picks up about half a
bucket full at a time(you know, the squarish buckets legos come in)
and is super for quick lego clean up

HeidiC

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/1/2003 7:06:49 PM Central Standard Time,
mjsolich@... writes:


> We have a lego blanket

When I first read this, I thought you meant that the legos were a blanket on
the floor, like a lego throw rug! That describes my son's room with his
imaginext castle, wizard's tower and fire station. Lots of little pieces
blanketing the floor.

Yesterday he (now 5) cleaned his room for the first time. He was really
proud of himself and I was proud of him. He wanted to thank me for getting him
the helicopter spiderman thing he had wanted from Target. What a sweetheart!

Elizabeth


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joanna514

>
> We have a lego blanket. It makes it easier to keep track of all the
little
> pieces and to put it away you simply each take a corner and pour it
into the
> crate. It also means that if the boys don't clean up, it takes only
a few
> seconds on my part to do the job.
>
> Julie
>
>
That's a great idea!
I just turned our TV room into a play room. It's really cool and
nice to have most of the toys in one area. The kids really like it.
I organized everything, and am having a hard time watching my well
organized room get messed up! LOL
Actually, I just go in every couple of days and reorganize. The
kids help or not.
And, I was joking about it being MY room.
Though after going to Ikea(if anyone has been there, you'll know what
I mean) and buying cute storage bins and little colorful rugs that
look like bugs, and dressing it up to be a fun looking room, I am
having a little trouble letting go of ownership of the place.
My rational side knows better though. ;-)
Joanna

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/2/03 6:50:55 AM, Wilkinson6@... writes:

<< And, I was joking about it being MY room. >>

The way I handled toys that the kids would share but some of them wanted to
know whose it REALLY was, I would say "This one's mine, but you can play with
it."

As they got older, some of them naturally "became" the property of the kid
who had liked it most or longest. Some are still mine! <g>

Kirby has all the Ninja Turtles he ever had, but we had a deal that the troll
turtles were mine. Two reasons: I bought them when he would rather have had
something else (because I knew someday he would be glad to have them) and I
wanted him to take especially good care of them. It worked. They're his now.
But the atmosphere of them being mine helped him remember not to lose them
under the bed and get their hair all ruined.

If that room stays yours, it will be easier for you to ask for help to get it
straightened up!

Sandra

Julie Solich

> Though after going to Ikea(if anyone has been there, you'll know what I
mean) and buying cute storage bins and little colorful rugs that look like
bugs, and dressing it up to be a fun looking room, I am having a little
trouble letting go of ownership of the place.
My rational side knows better though. ;-)
Joanna

I know what you mean. We just did up the boy's room. It's a beautiful deep
blue and has framed prints of Marvel comic characters up on the walls. Mark
keeps going in there and looking around. I know he'd love to swap rooms with
boys and put our bed right underneath Wolverine! <g>

Julie




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> <<<The way I handled toys that the kids would share but some of them wanted
> to
> know whose it REALLY was, I would say "This one's mine, but you can play
> with
> it.">>>
>
Not the same thing, but it reminds me:
When my daughter was moving out, she began to pick up books from around the
house to pack. I must've had a strange expression on my face, because she
said, "What? They're my books, aren't they?" Well, I bought them to read to her,
and I wrote her name in them, but I guess I really thought of them as mine.
And I never even realized it until that moment. So now she's reading them to
her kids.
Mary J


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshiantafti

>> "What? They're my books, aren't they?" Well, I bought them to read to her,
and I wrote her name in them, but I guess I really thought of them as mine. >>

Okay - I'm about to start putting MY name in all the books that I want to keep!!


My youngest sister got all the books from our childhood...that didn't upset me terribly, because I'm not one to keep old nostalgic stuff, really. But-I do have an urge to keep books I read TO my own children. IF they ever want them read to THEIR kids, they'll just have to let ME do it!!

-pam