Introducing The Rall Family
Judie Rall
Hello,
I found your group through a friend and think I am going to like it
very much. A little bit about our family. My husband and I will have
been married 20 years in November. He was in the military when we
married, spent 20 years there and now works for the American Red Cross.
We have two sons, Josh who is 18, and Ethan who is 13.
I always knew I wanted to homeschool. When Josh was five, I couldn't
wait to drag out my favorite Tip and Mitten reader. We'd sit on the
couch every day, and I'd read to him, and try to teach him the sound
of each letter, and help him put it all together. But each reading
session would end with him in tears. I decided he was too young, and
put it off until the next year.
When he was six, we tried again. Once again, each session ended in
tears. I wondered, what am I doing wrong? I decided to just let it
go. By the time he was about eight, he finally caught on to what I
had been trying to show him before, and we were off.
We started out using the Abeka curriculum, but I soon learned that I
hated it. If it was boring me, I was sure it was boring him. We
continued with "traditional" homeschooling until he was eleven. One
day we were sitting at the table struggling with 5th grade math, and I
just couldn't understand why he couldn't "get it". I got angry and
yelled at him, "You are going to school next year, and that's that!"
I was convinced it was his laziness, coupled with my obviously
ineffective teaching technique that was the problem.
We enrolled him in a local Christian school. They said their
curriculum was a year ahead of the local public schools. So even
though he had been doing 5th grade work, they put him back in 4th
grade. So here he was, and almost 12 year old in 4th grade. That was
bad enough, but the worse part was, he wasn't getting any better in
math. That first year was so hard on his self-esteem, I'm so sorry I
made him go through that. By that time, we'd had Ethan, and it only
made sense for Ethan to go to school too, that way I could have them
both in school and I could finish my college degree. He went to
Kindergarten every day and came home crying because he missed me so
much.
We spent five years of our life at that school. And I now regret each
day that we wasted there. By the end of the last year, we were all
worn out from school, going to bed early, getting up early, and all
that horrendous homework! Their curriculum was demanding to begin
with, and then there was so much homework. We spent the whole evening
doing it, and I really felt like we were homeschooling again because
they weren't understanding everything they learned during the day and
I'd have to go over it with them again at night. I might as well have
saved myself the money and just homeschooled.
When we left, Josh had just finished 8th grade, and barely passed
pre-alegra with a D. The only way he passed was that they allowed the
students to correct their homework papers and turn them in again for a
better grade. We struggled and struggled with math, and I finally saw
that it wasn't his laziness or my ineffectual teaching. He just
WASN'T GOOD AT MATH! Horror of horrors, was his life ruined forever?
Well, my son was 16 years old, almost 17 and just completed 8th grade.
If it took him four more years to complete high school, he'd be
almost 21 when he finished. So I thought about it. What are they
going to teach him in high school that he really needs? When we quit
the school and went back home, I told them they didn't have to study
anything they didn't want to. That whole first year we did pretty
much nothing that looked academic.
The second year, Ethan said that he thought he'd like to start doing
some actual school work again. We signed up with an online school,
Goddess Mooncircle Academy, and took just reading, spelling and math.
We finished those books before the first semester was over, so I told
him he could go on to 7th grade work. By that time, he was twelve,
and I guess starting to feel like an almost-teenager, starting to feel
a little more laid back.
So, the bottom line is, Josh skipped everything that you could
consider to be "high school." He's 18 now. He's been out looking for
a full time job, hasn't found one yet but we put in applications every
day. When he fills out the portion of the job application that says
"high school" I guiltily put that he "graduated" in May 2003. I feel
that he is going to learn so much more at a job than in school. He
chats with a lot of kids online and likes to brag that he doesn't have
to "finish" school.
We saw some ads for PCDI on television, that's Professional Career
Development Institute. Josh decided he wanted to take their Computer
Repair course, so we ordered it for him. He's completed the first
three chapters and tests. He studies on it when he wants to. After
he completes a chapter and test, I go through and check it. If there
are any errors, I correct them and we send the test in. Then we
review the parts he missed. But mostly he studies on his own. I just
quiz him when necessary.
Ethan is only 13, but was very excited about getting to study whatever
he wanted, so we ordered the career photography course for him. He
was initially excited about it, but I think he underestimated just how
much reading and book learning there would be to it because it's hard
to get him to sit down and study it. I think he thought it would be
all taking pictures and no book studying. Anyway, I try to remind him
that I didn't make him choose this course, in fact he didn't have to
choose anything. But he DID choose this, and we are paying $28 a
month for two years so he can take the course. I am kind of caught
between realizing that he needs to be free to study or not study as he
chooses, and realizing that we are paying over $500 for this course
because he said he wanted it, and am tempted to "make" him sit down
and study. Any suggestions from anyone on this?
I am going to be so happy when Josh finally does get a job, I'll write
a book called, "Ditch School and Get a Job" or something. I want to
write a success story about him, about how school made him feel like
he didn't measure up, but how he skipped high school and became
successful all on his own.
Well, didn't mean to go on so long. I'll enjoy getting to know you all.
Judie C. Rall
www.unhinderedliving.com
I found your group through a friend and think I am going to like it
very much. A little bit about our family. My husband and I will have
been married 20 years in November. He was in the military when we
married, spent 20 years there and now works for the American Red Cross.
We have two sons, Josh who is 18, and Ethan who is 13.
I always knew I wanted to homeschool. When Josh was five, I couldn't
wait to drag out my favorite Tip and Mitten reader. We'd sit on the
couch every day, and I'd read to him, and try to teach him the sound
of each letter, and help him put it all together. But each reading
session would end with him in tears. I decided he was too young, and
put it off until the next year.
When he was six, we tried again. Once again, each session ended in
tears. I wondered, what am I doing wrong? I decided to just let it
go. By the time he was about eight, he finally caught on to what I
had been trying to show him before, and we were off.
We started out using the Abeka curriculum, but I soon learned that I
hated it. If it was boring me, I was sure it was boring him. We
continued with "traditional" homeschooling until he was eleven. One
day we were sitting at the table struggling with 5th grade math, and I
just couldn't understand why he couldn't "get it". I got angry and
yelled at him, "You are going to school next year, and that's that!"
I was convinced it was his laziness, coupled with my obviously
ineffective teaching technique that was the problem.
We enrolled him in a local Christian school. They said their
curriculum was a year ahead of the local public schools. So even
though he had been doing 5th grade work, they put him back in 4th
grade. So here he was, and almost 12 year old in 4th grade. That was
bad enough, but the worse part was, he wasn't getting any better in
math. That first year was so hard on his self-esteem, I'm so sorry I
made him go through that. By that time, we'd had Ethan, and it only
made sense for Ethan to go to school too, that way I could have them
both in school and I could finish my college degree. He went to
Kindergarten every day and came home crying because he missed me so
much.
We spent five years of our life at that school. And I now regret each
day that we wasted there. By the end of the last year, we were all
worn out from school, going to bed early, getting up early, and all
that horrendous homework! Their curriculum was demanding to begin
with, and then there was so much homework. We spent the whole evening
doing it, and I really felt like we were homeschooling again because
they weren't understanding everything they learned during the day and
I'd have to go over it with them again at night. I might as well have
saved myself the money and just homeschooled.
When we left, Josh had just finished 8th grade, and barely passed
pre-alegra with a D. The only way he passed was that they allowed the
students to correct their homework papers and turn them in again for a
better grade. We struggled and struggled with math, and I finally saw
that it wasn't his laziness or my ineffectual teaching. He just
WASN'T GOOD AT MATH! Horror of horrors, was his life ruined forever?
Well, my son was 16 years old, almost 17 and just completed 8th grade.
If it took him four more years to complete high school, he'd be
almost 21 when he finished. So I thought about it. What are they
going to teach him in high school that he really needs? When we quit
the school and went back home, I told them they didn't have to study
anything they didn't want to. That whole first year we did pretty
much nothing that looked academic.
The second year, Ethan said that he thought he'd like to start doing
some actual school work again. We signed up with an online school,
Goddess Mooncircle Academy, and took just reading, spelling and math.
We finished those books before the first semester was over, so I told
him he could go on to 7th grade work. By that time, he was twelve,
and I guess starting to feel like an almost-teenager, starting to feel
a little more laid back.
So, the bottom line is, Josh skipped everything that you could
consider to be "high school." He's 18 now. He's been out looking for
a full time job, hasn't found one yet but we put in applications every
day. When he fills out the portion of the job application that says
"high school" I guiltily put that he "graduated" in May 2003. I feel
that he is going to learn so much more at a job than in school. He
chats with a lot of kids online and likes to brag that he doesn't have
to "finish" school.
We saw some ads for PCDI on television, that's Professional Career
Development Institute. Josh decided he wanted to take their Computer
Repair course, so we ordered it for him. He's completed the first
three chapters and tests. He studies on it when he wants to. After
he completes a chapter and test, I go through and check it. If there
are any errors, I correct them and we send the test in. Then we
review the parts he missed. But mostly he studies on his own. I just
quiz him when necessary.
Ethan is only 13, but was very excited about getting to study whatever
he wanted, so we ordered the career photography course for him. He
was initially excited about it, but I think he underestimated just how
much reading and book learning there would be to it because it's hard
to get him to sit down and study it. I think he thought it would be
all taking pictures and no book studying. Anyway, I try to remind him
that I didn't make him choose this course, in fact he didn't have to
choose anything. But he DID choose this, and we are paying $28 a
month for two years so he can take the course. I am kind of caught
between realizing that he needs to be free to study or not study as he
chooses, and realizing that we are paying over $500 for this course
because he said he wanted it, and am tempted to "make" him sit down
and study. Any suggestions from anyone on this?
I am going to be so happy when Josh finally does get a job, I'll write
a book called, "Ditch School and Get a Job" or something. I want to
write a success story about him, about how school made him feel like
he didn't measure up, but how he skipped high school and became
successful all on his own.
Well, didn't mean to go on so long. I'll enjoy getting to know you all.
Judie C. Rall
www.unhinderedliving.com
Fetteroll
on 8/30/03 12:27 PM, Judie Rall at adonai@... wrote:
Here's one way of looking at it: You're probably about 3 times as old as he
is, so a 2 year commitment to him is like a 6 year commitment to you. What
if you signed up for something you realized you didn't like after a couple
of months? How would you feel if your husband insisted you stick with it for
the next 6 years because you signed up for it?
If you make him study this for 2 years a very likely outcome is that he'll
hate photography. Is that worth $500?
(I'd find some way to drop it and get out of any contract you signed.)
Childhood should be about exploring the world. Which means being free to
dabble in things and try them out. If he feels that trying something means
he's stuck with it, then he'll stop trying thing out.
Joyce
> Anyway, I try to remind himHi Judie!
> that I didn't make him choose this course, in fact he didn't have to
> choose anything. But he DID choose this, and we are paying $28 a
> month for two years so he can take the course. I am kind of caught
> between realizing that he needs to be free to study or not study as he
> chooses, and realizing that we are paying over $500 for this course
> because he said he wanted it, and am tempted to "make" him sit down
> and study. Any suggestions from anyone on this?
Here's one way of looking at it: You're probably about 3 times as old as he
is, so a 2 year commitment to him is like a 6 year commitment to you. What
if you signed up for something you realized you didn't like after a couple
of months? How would you feel if your husband insisted you stick with it for
the next 6 years because you signed up for it?
If you make him study this for 2 years a very likely outcome is that he'll
hate photography. Is that worth $500?
(I'd find some way to drop it and get out of any contract you signed.)
Childhood should be about exploring the world. Which means being free to
dabble in things and try them out. If he feels that trying something means
he's stuck with it, then he'll stop trying thing out.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/30/03 5:08:34 PM, adonai@... writes:
<< I think he thought it would be
all taking pictures and no book studying. Anyway, I try to remind him
that I didn't make him choose this course, in fact he didn't have to
choose anything. >>
If you make him finish everything he starts, or make him finish everything
you pay for, that will teach him two things: not to start anything, and to
refuse your financial assistance, because of the usury rates.
I had a friend who, in trying to implement unschooling, told her 12 year old
son that he could read any book in the world he wanted to, as long as he
finished every book he started. Huh. He quit starting books in no time!
What if you bought a dozen donuts for him and he didn't want to finish them?
Better for finance AND health to give the extras away or even throw them
away rather than run them through his digestive tract just because they cost
money. The money was already gone.
If you bought him something he turned out to be allergic to, would you force
him to finish eating it?
What if he's allergic to a course of study?
I'd go for happiness and peace over getting your money's worth of unhappiness.
Sandra
<< I think he thought it would be
all taking pictures and no book studying. Anyway, I try to remind him
that I didn't make him choose this course, in fact he didn't have to
choose anything. >>
If you make him finish everything he starts, or make him finish everything
you pay for, that will teach him two things: not to start anything, and to
refuse your financial assistance, because of the usury rates.
I had a friend who, in trying to implement unschooling, told her 12 year old
son that he could read any book in the world he wanted to, as long as he
finished every book he started. Huh. He quit starting books in no time!
What if you bought a dozen donuts for him and he didn't want to finish them?
Better for finance AND health to give the extras away or even throw them
away rather than run them through his digestive tract just because they cost
money. The money was already gone.
If you bought him something he turned out to be allergic to, would you force
him to finish eating it?
What if he's allergic to a course of study?
I'd go for happiness and peace over getting your money's worth of unhappiness.
Sandra
Judie C. Rall
> Here's one way of looking at it: You're probably about 3 times as old as heI totally agree with what everyone is saying on this, but what about
> is, so a 2 year commitment to him is like a 6 year commitment to you. What
> if you signed up for something you realized you didn't like after a couple
> of months? How would you feel if your husband insisted you stick with it for
> the next 6 years because you signed up for it?
following through on something you commit yourself to? What if he
gets a job and signs a two year contract to work for someone, he
can't just quit, because he signed a contract to work for that
person. This kind of speaks to a real life situation.
Judie
Judie C. Rall
> Real life, kids don't make contracts.Lots of kids sign contracts. Emancipated minors have the right to
>
> Sandra
sign contracts. More kids would seek emancipated minor status if
they knew they could make their own decisions.
I'm sorry, but I just don't understand what is wrong with letting
kids be responsible for their own actions. If I signed a contract
specifying that I promised to do something, I would do it, because I
believe it is unethical to not fulfill a contractual agreement that I
freely entered into. Now what is a child learning when he is
allowed to make a choice but not allowed to experience the
consequences of that choice?
If your child asks you if he can paint a picture, and you say yes,
but specify that he has to clean up the mess when he is done, are you
going to then clean up the mess for him because when it's time to do
the actual work of clean up, he wines about having to do his part,
which was stated beforehand? Or would you say yes to his
request to paint without making him responsible in any way for the
clean-up? When you and your child make this agreement about the
paint, that is a contract. Your child gets the privilege of painting
in return for fulfilling his responsibility to clean up. We involve
our children in contracts all the time, we just don't make them sign
on the dotted line.
Judie
Judie C. Rall
Well, I'm sitting here thinking how I've tried to do the absolute
very best by my kids by unschooling them, and letting them make their
own choices about what they want to study. So when my son said he
wanted this, I had no reason to not believe him. No reason to think
that he wouldn't complete the work, because in the past when he has
asked to do something, he's always completed it. He's always been
very responsible, so no reason to think he wouldn't be again.
I'm sitting here thinking, how could I ever have known that this
wasn't the right choice for him, when he told me it's what he wanted?
We tried other avenues to find the information, most of the books
didn't go into the detail that we wanted. This seemed the only way
to get the information.
And no, I have not ever left a job early, gotten a divorce, or
left an apartment without giving two months notice and cleaning it to
full-depost perfection. I have never broken up with a boyfriend or
accidently stood someone up that I am aware of. I believe in
fulfilling my responsibilities, and I believe there is always a way
to do the right thing.
So I guess the "right thing" is for me to just suck it up and pay the
money, but for my son to not have to do anything. Wish I could get
the people in MY life to let me get away with that.
Sorry, guess I'm just having a crappy failure of a day.
Judie
very best by my kids by unschooling them, and letting them make their
own choices about what they want to study. So when my son said he
wanted this, I had no reason to not believe him. No reason to think
that he wouldn't complete the work, because in the past when he has
asked to do something, he's always completed it. He's always been
very responsible, so no reason to think he wouldn't be again.
I'm sitting here thinking, how could I ever have known that this
wasn't the right choice for him, when he told me it's what he wanted?
We tried other avenues to find the information, most of the books
didn't go into the detail that we wanted. This seemed the only way
to get the information.
And no, I have not ever left a job early, gotten a divorce, or
left an apartment without giving two months notice and cleaning it to
full-depost perfection. I have never broken up with a boyfriend or
accidently stood someone up that I am aware of. I believe in
fulfilling my responsibilities, and I believe there is always a way
to do the right thing.
So I guess the "right thing" is for me to just suck it up and pay the
money, but for my son to not have to do anything. Wish I could get
the people in MY life to let me get away with that.
Sorry, guess I'm just having a crappy failure of a day.
Judie
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/31/2003 9:46:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
adonai@... writes:
I totally agree with what everyone is saying on this, but what about
following through on something you commit yourself to? What if he
gets a job and signs a two year contract to work for someone, he
can't just quit, because he signed a contract to work for that
person. This kind of speaks to a real life situation. <<<<<
I'm hoping I would never commit to anything MAJOR that I wasn't planning to
follow through with. Same for my boys. But learning discernment is
important---knowing WHEN to commit and when to quit. I don't have NEARLY was many things
that I quit NOW as I did when I was younger; I can discern better what I can do
and what I want to do.
But FORCING a commitment does not make someone more willing to do the work.
It makes him bitter and resentful that he HAS to. And probably less likely to
do a good job. School teaches people to do just enough to get by---especially
if you hate it, because you CAN'T get out of it.
As far as the "real life situation", I've never heard of a job that required
a two year commitment for a job that you couldn't get out of if you were truly
unhappy. Anyone else? I'm picking my brain to think of a job where you're
stuck. OH! the military! But you could still get a dishonorable discharge and get
out early! <G>
Real life is making those hard decisions ON YOUR OWN (or with a little help
form loved ones). It is NOT doing it anyway because someone else makes you.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
adonai@... writes:
I totally agree with what everyone is saying on this, but what about
following through on something you commit yourself to? What if he
gets a job and signs a two year contract to work for someone, he
can't just quit, because he signed a contract to work for that
person. This kind of speaks to a real life situation. <<<<<
I'm hoping I would never commit to anything MAJOR that I wasn't planning to
follow through with. Same for my boys. But learning discernment is
important---knowing WHEN to commit and when to quit. I don't have NEARLY was many things
that I quit NOW as I did when I was younger; I can discern better what I can do
and what I want to do.
But FORCING a commitment does not make someone more willing to do the work.
It makes him bitter and resentful that he HAS to. And probably less likely to
do a good job. School teaches people to do just enough to get by---especially
if you hate it, because you CAN'T get out of it.
As far as the "real life situation", I've never heard of a job that required
a two year commitment for a job that you couldn't get out of if you were truly
unhappy. Anyone else? I'm picking my brain to think of a job where you're
stuck. OH! the military! But you could still get a dishonorable discharge and get
out early! <G>
Real life is making those hard decisions ON YOUR OWN (or with a little help
form loved ones). It is NOT doing it anyway because someone else makes you.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Crystal
-=Judie says: What if he gets a job and signs a two year contract to work
for someone, he can't just quit, because he signed a contract to work for
that person. =-
This situation falls under "natural consequenses". Your son would be aware
of the consequenses of breaking the contract and would have to decide for
himself which is worse, living out his contract that is making him
miserable, or facing the consequenses of breaking that contract. Hopefully
he will have enough integrity not to leave someone else stranded, but his
first obligation in life is to himself.
In the past, I have broken a three-year contract with a health club that I
joined. It had on-site child care and so I brought my kids for only 1
hour. I brought them snacks and I checked on them often. Good thing I did,
because I saw the day care woman really didn't like being there and she did
not interact with the kids at all. I'm guessing that she was only doing it
for a reduced rate on her membership. My kids sat off in a corner eating
their snacks and the other kids took turns staring at my kids snacks and
playing with a small sample of toys. None of the kids enjoyed being there.
It was like baby prison. I did tour the room before I signed the contract,
but it was something that you really didn't notice right off. You had to
see it a couple of times to really understand that it was going on. I
decided that bringing my kids there was not worth keeping my good credit, so
I quit going and quit paying. My consequenses was that it was a negative on
my credit. I could live with that. I couldn't live with my kids being in
baby prison. The woman hated her commitment to the day care, but she did
it. Everyone would have been better off if she just quit. Sometimes it's
good to quit.
Crystal
for someone, he can't just quit, because he signed a contract to work for
that person. =-
This situation falls under "natural consequenses". Your son would be aware
of the consequenses of breaking the contract and would have to decide for
himself which is worse, living out his contract that is making him
miserable, or facing the consequenses of breaking that contract. Hopefully
he will have enough integrity not to leave someone else stranded, but his
first obligation in life is to himself.
In the past, I have broken a three-year contract with a health club that I
joined. It had on-site child care and so I brought my kids for only 1
hour. I brought them snacks and I checked on them often. Good thing I did,
because I saw the day care woman really didn't like being there and she did
not interact with the kids at all. I'm guessing that she was only doing it
for a reduced rate on her membership. My kids sat off in a corner eating
their snacks and the other kids took turns staring at my kids snacks and
playing with a small sample of toys. None of the kids enjoyed being there.
It was like baby prison. I did tour the room before I signed the contract,
but it was something that you really didn't notice right off. You had to
see it a couple of times to really understand that it was going on. I
decided that bringing my kids there was not worth keeping my good credit, so
I quit going and quit paying. My consequenses was that it was a negative on
my credit. I could live with that. I couldn't live with my kids being in
baby prison. The woman hated her commitment to the day care, but she did
it. Everyone would have been better off if she just quit. Sometimes it's
good to quit.
Crystal
Crystal
-={{{Judie!}}}} Thanks for trying so hard to find what your kids need.
Kathryn=-
That was so nice of you to say, Kathryn.
Crystal
Kathryn=-
That was so nice of you to say, Kathryn.
Crystal
Judie C. Rall
> I have a headache, and ants have invaded because my hubby and son don't walkSo, don't go. From what everybody's been saying, you don't HAVE to
> the garbage to the kitchen they play hoops with the living room garbage can
> instead ( and obviously miss a lot!), and I have to go visit at a relatives
> house I can't stand, in the rain, which I hate to drive in, and there's
> construction there, which I also hate to drive in.
do anything. So, you don't HAVE to go. Even if you told them you
would come (which is a contract) you don't have to honor that.
Nobody has to honor anything that they say. Which sucks, because if
you can't count on people to be true to their word, what's the point?
Judie
TreeGoddess
Judie C. Rall wrote:
on signing any contracts soon? ;) If he is have a lawyer look it over
before signing it and make sure he can find a loophole if it's the job
from hell. <g>
TreeGoddess
>I totally agree with what everyone is saying on this, but what aboutBut that's a "what if" and not a present reality. Is your son planning
>following through on something you commit yourself to? What if he
>gets a job and signs a two year contract to work for someone, he
>can't just quit, because he signed a contract to work for that
>person.
>
on signing any contracts soon? ;) If he is have a lawyer look it over
before signing it and make sure he can find a loophole if it's the job
from hell. <g>
TreeGoddess
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/31/03 12:05:41 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< If you make him study this for 2 years a very likely outcome is that he'll
hate photography. Is that worth $500?
<<(I'd find some way to drop it and get out of any contract you signed.) >>
Could one of the parents "do the course"? Is it transferable that way? If
you don't care about the "credit," the educational information is still coming
into the house. Is there anyone else in the family (or could all the family
share) the input and feedback?
Sandra
<< If you make him study this for 2 years a very likely outcome is that he'll
hate photography. Is that worth $500?
<<(I'd find some way to drop it and get out of any contract you signed.) >>
Could one of the parents "do the course"? Is it transferable that way? If
you don't care about the "credit," the educational information is still coming
into the house. Is there anyone else in the family (or could all the family
share) the input and feedback?
Sandra
Judie C. Rall
>So it's ok for him to have a responsibility to others, but not OK
> But taking a distance course where there is no responsibility to others who
> are waiting isn't the same level or purpose of commitment.
for him to have a responsibility to ME?
This is just making me crazy?
Judie
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/31/03 7:46:17 AM, adonai@... writes:
<< I totally agree with what everyone is saying on this, but what about
following through on something you commit yourself to? What if he
gets a job and signs a two year contract to work for someone, he
can't just quit, because he signed a contract to work for that
person. >>
That's why children are not allowed to sign contracts. The courts don't
consider them to be competent to make long-term agreements. And it's not fair to
stick parents with decisions made by those too young to understand.
So if a parent is the one sticking a kid to a "contract," that's bad.
And contracts can and are broken all the time. There are penalties for
breaking them, but to say "can't just quit" isn't true. Sometimes the penalty is
financial, and part of the contract from the beginning. Sometimes it's just
personal integrity penalty--not good on a resume.
If you lease a house you don't have to physically live in the house, you have
to keep making payments and be responsible for the upkeep/maintenance
(whatever the contract stipulated). So if someone leased a two year set of
instruction, they don't have to LIVE there.
<<This kind of speaks to a real life situation. >>
Real life, kids don't make contracts.
Sandra
<< I totally agree with what everyone is saying on this, but what about
following through on something you commit yourself to? What if he
gets a job and signs a two year contract to work for someone, he
can't just quit, because he signed a contract to work for that
person. >>
That's why children are not allowed to sign contracts. The courts don't
consider them to be competent to make long-term agreements. And it's not fair to
stick parents with decisions made by those too young to understand.
So if a parent is the one sticking a kid to a "contract," that's bad.
And contracts can and are broken all the time. There are penalties for
breaking them, but to say "can't just quit" isn't true. Sometimes the penalty is
financial, and part of the contract from the beginning. Sometimes it's just
personal integrity penalty--not good on a resume.
If you lease a house you don't have to physically live in the house, you have
to keep making payments and be responsible for the upkeep/maintenance
(whatever the contract stipulated). So if someone leased a two year set of
instruction, they don't have to LIVE there.
<<This kind of speaks to a real life situation. >>
Real life, kids don't make contracts.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/31/03 8:40:19 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
<< As far as the "real life situation", I've never heard of a job that
required
a two year commitment for a job that you couldn't get out of if you were
truly
unhappy. Anyone else? >>
Teachers sign one-year contracts. But they can be broken if you're through
being hired as a teacher.
Often people make a less formal agreement to keep a job for two or three
years if they accept a position. Then it's their word as their bond. For some
people that's stronger than other people's contracts.
Kirby has agreed to teach the beginning karate class on Tuesdays. It's part
of his training and part of his duty to his sensei and the dojo as a group.
He doesn't take that lightly. If he did, they would say "that's okay," and
get someone else to do it. But it wouldn't be entirely "okay." It would make
Kirby less valuable and less valued.
But taking a distance course where there is no responsibility to others who
are waiting isn't the same level or purpose of commitment.
Being in a play or a music group is a BIG commitment. Kids make those
commitments, but they usually start small and build up to major commitments only
after they know their own limits and interests, and the others know them fairly
well too, who "contract" with them usually informally.
Being on a sports team is less crucial than having a major vocal part in a
production, but is similar.
Accepting a scholarship (for any reason) creates a contractual commitment.
It's not that commitments aren't real, but it's that practicing doesn't help
the reality. There isn't "pretend" commitment.
The argument that people need to wake up early as kids so they can wake up on
time for jobs when they're older doesn't make sense, and neither does
practicing for two-year contracts.
Sandra
<< As far as the "real life situation", I've never heard of a job that
required
a two year commitment for a job that you couldn't get out of if you were
truly
unhappy. Anyone else? >>
Teachers sign one-year contracts. But they can be broken if you're through
being hired as a teacher.
Often people make a less formal agreement to keep a job for two or three
years if they accept a position. Then it's their word as their bond. For some
people that's stronger than other people's contracts.
Kirby has agreed to teach the beginning karate class on Tuesdays. It's part
of his training and part of his duty to his sensei and the dojo as a group.
He doesn't take that lightly. If he did, they would say "that's okay," and
get someone else to do it. But it wouldn't be entirely "okay." It would make
Kirby less valuable and less valued.
But taking a distance course where there is no responsibility to others who
are waiting isn't the same level or purpose of commitment.
Being in a play or a music group is a BIG commitment. Kids make those
commitments, but they usually start small and build up to major commitments only
after they know their own limits and interests, and the others know them fairly
well too, who "contract" with them usually informally.
Being on a sports team is less crucial than having a major vocal part in a
production, but is similar.
Accepting a scholarship (for any reason) creates a contractual commitment.
It's not that commitments aren't real, but it's that practicing doesn't help
the reality. There isn't "pretend" commitment.
The argument that people need to wake up early as kids so they can wake up on
time for jobs when they're older doesn't make sense, and neither does
practicing for two-year contracts.
Sandra
Judie C. Rall
> Maybe you could try looking at it a little differently. Think of leaving theNo, he hasn't done anything about it. He just hasn't done anything.
> class as doing the right thing for him. Instead of wasting his time in a
> class that he isn't interested in. A class that just might crush a love of
> photography (I think that was the class ; )) He had the strength of character to
> decide that it wasn't for him, and to do something about it.
It's not a class he GOES to, it's a self-study program, which he
requested that we purchase. He has NOT said, "I don't want to study
this" he just isn't studying, after he asked me to get the course for
him.
Judie
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/31/03 11:00:26 AM, adonai@... writes:
<< Lots of kids sign contracts. Emancipated minors have the right to
sign contracts. >>
"Emancipated minor" means "no longer legally a kid."
<<I'm sorry, but I just don't understand what is wrong with letting
kids be responsible for their own actions.>>
I don't think the question was about letting them be responsible.
It was about MAKING them "be responsible," which can't really be done.
<<If I signed a contract
specifying that I promised to do something, I would do it, because I
believe it is unethical to not fulfill a contractual agreement that I
freely entered into. >>
How old are you?
Have you ever left a job early, gotten a divorce, left an apartment without
giving two months notice and cleaning it to full-deposit perfection? Have you
ever broken up with a boyfriend? Accidently stood someone up?
Ethics are internal. They can't be imposed or inserted.
Children develop ethics, and doing something to them that they feel is unfair
or painful or unreasonable is NOT the short path to ethical awareness.
<< Now what is a child learning when he is
allowed to make a choice but not allowed to experience the
consequences of that choice?>>
If he didn't freely and fully understand his choices, he was cheated.
Little kids would agree to all KINDS of things they're incapable of
comprehending.
<< Or would you say yes to his
request to paint without making him responsible in any way for the
clean-up? >>
THAT is what I would do if I wanted him to love painting, and wanted him to
experience learning.
If a child can't paint until he's capable of entirely cleaning up all the
mess and supplies, children just won't paint. Nor wt the
paint, that is a contract. >>
I rarely make such contracts with my children. We clean things up together
because we like to do things together. We're partners, not adversaries.
<<Your child gets the privilege of painting
in return for fulfilling his responsibility to clean up. >>
My child has the right to paint.
I have the duty to maintain his rights.
I will take care of the paints and provide table space and paper. The mess
will stay or not; sometimes they clean up, sometimes we both do, sometimes we
ALL do, sometimes I do.
<< We involve our children in contracts all the time, we just don't make them
sign
on the dotted line. >>
Kirby called me Friday afternoon from the gaming shop because he was leaving
there to go to someone's house for a roll-playing game he expected to last
until after midnight. It was a house he had never been to. He offered to call
after he got there and give me address and phone, but I said if he wasn't
worried and he knew he had a ride home, he didn't need to call. He's seventeen.
He called because I would have assumed he would be at the gaming shop, and he
knew I would be worried if I needed him and couldn't find him. It was a
courtesy and a consideration. I appreciated it.
He got home around 1:00 a.m. and came in quietly and all was peaceful and
good.
We're not living by contracts. We're living by love and courtesy, I guess.
Ben Lovejoy gave a presentation at the Live & Learn Conference about living
by principles instead of rules. I think that's the difference. I would not
commit any of my children to a two-year obligation, but in the case of a
long-term obligation, the principle by which we would decide how to proceed would be
that our children's safety and happiness and learning outweigh other factors.
Holly went to an acting/modelling school on a one-year contract. Ultimately,
she took more classes than we had paid for, because they liked her and she
was inspirational to other kids (and the teachers). But halfway through, she
went through a period of not wanting to go at all. She finished the eight-week
courses she was in, and didn't sign on for more. Keith was sad about the loss
of funds, but he bucked up and decided her being content and feeling safe was
more important. And in a while, she went back and had a BIG flurry of
activity there.
I just never treat my children like contract-breaking employees, and it has
worked well for us.
Sandra
<< Lots of kids sign contracts. Emancipated minors have the right to
sign contracts. >>
"Emancipated minor" means "no longer legally a kid."
<<I'm sorry, but I just don't understand what is wrong with letting
kids be responsible for their own actions.>>
I don't think the question was about letting them be responsible.
It was about MAKING them "be responsible," which can't really be done.
<<If I signed a contract
specifying that I promised to do something, I would do it, because I
believe it is unethical to not fulfill a contractual agreement that I
freely entered into. >>
How old are you?
Have you ever left a job early, gotten a divorce, left an apartment without
giving two months notice and cleaning it to full-deposit perfection? Have you
ever broken up with a boyfriend? Accidently stood someone up?
Ethics are internal. They can't be imposed or inserted.
Children develop ethics, and doing something to them that they feel is unfair
or painful or unreasonable is NOT the short path to ethical awareness.
<< Now what is a child learning when he is
allowed to make a choice but not allowed to experience the
consequences of that choice?>>
If he didn't freely and fully understand his choices, he was cheated.
Little kids would agree to all KINDS of things they're incapable of
comprehending.
<< Or would you say yes to his
request to paint without making him responsible in any way for the
clean-up? >>
THAT is what I would do if I wanted him to love painting, and wanted him to
experience learning.
If a child can't paint until he's capable of entirely cleaning up all the
mess and supplies, children just won't paint. Nor wt the
paint, that is a contract. >>
I rarely make such contracts with my children. We clean things up together
because we like to do things together. We're partners, not adversaries.
<<Your child gets the privilege of painting
in return for fulfilling his responsibility to clean up. >>
My child has the right to paint.
I have the duty to maintain his rights.
I will take care of the paints and provide table space and paper. The mess
will stay or not; sometimes they clean up, sometimes we both do, sometimes we
ALL do, sometimes I do.
<< We involve our children in contracts all the time, we just don't make them
sign
on the dotted line. >>
Kirby called me Friday afternoon from the gaming shop because he was leaving
there to go to someone's house for a roll-playing game he expected to last
until after midnight. It was a house he had never been to. He offered to call
after he got there and give me address and phone, but I said if he wasn't
worried and he knew he had a ride home, he didn't need to call. He's seventeen.
He called because I would have assumed he would be at the gaming shop, and he
knew I would be worried if I needed him and couldn't find him. It was a
courtesy and a consideration. I appreciated it.
He got home around 1:00 a.m. and came in quietly and all was peaceful and
good.
We're not living by contracts. We're living by love and courtesy, I guess.
Ben Lovejoy gave a presentation at the Live & Learn Conference about living
by principles instead of rules. I think that's the difference. I would not
commit any of my children to a two-year obligation, but in the case of a
long-term obligation, the principle by which we would decide how to proceed would be
that our children's safety and happiness and learning outweigh other factors.
Holly went to an acting/modelling school on a one-year contract. Ultimately,
she took more classes than we had paid for, because they liked her and she
was inspirational to other kids (and the teachers). But halfway through, she
went through a period of not wanting to go at all. She finished the eight-week
courses she was in, and didn't sign on for more. Keith was sad about the loss
of funds, but he bucked up and decided her being content and feeling safe was
more important. And in a while, she went back and had a BIG flurry of
activity there.
I just never treat my children like contract-breaking employees, and it has
worked well for us.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/31/2003 12:00:34 PM Central Standard Time,
adonai@... writes:
me great happiness. This involved some considerable cost in the process,
because I really loved choosing handmade papers, wanted a hand drill, had to get
the string and the right glue and all sorts of fun tools to do it. I made a
bunch of little books and then didn't do any more. I think I move on to
decoupage for a while, but what I wanted to do with that - make little treasure boxed
out of torn children's books - was too tedious to hold my attention and the
glue bothered my lungs. I spent time and energy collecting colored on and
ripped children's books from garage sales, collected shoe boxed and such.
Let's see, I also tried knitting when I broke my ankle. Got lots of fun
yarn. I really like yarn. I really don't like knitting. It was really just a
prelude to weaving anyway. Now I'm weaving - spent a whole ton of money on a
used loom, buy yarn and work to my heart's content on it. It also brings me
great happiness. I've made three baby blankets now and am going to do two or
three more before moving on to rag rugs. I've been saving rags and old clothes
for years in anticipation
These are just the last two years, maybe, of my endeavors. Before that it
was canning (which I still do), picking (which I don't do anymore, but was
prolific at for a while), needlepoint, cross-stitch, bike riding, braided rag rugs,
watercolor painting, etc. My husband may roll his eyes at my whims and
interests, but he loves my enthusiasm and my need to be creative. ("This one is
going to change my live, dear!) He's never held me to doing something I grew
tired of. He's never forced me to complete a project because I spent good money
on it.
I've learned a lot in my time with these courses of study. Even if I didn't
stay with it. I'm happy to have done everything I've tried. Most of all I've
learned to follow my passion. Weaving may be it. Or maybe pottery will be
next, who knows?
How would you feel if your husband was the one who was interested in
photography (mine was) and took a course or spent thousands of dollars (speaking from
experience) on equipment? Would you force him to take pictures even if he was
no longer interested?
Contract or no, you can't really force a creative impulse that doesn't exist
or has withered away. My son is five now, loves his violin, but hates
lessons. We stopped the lessons at his three year old request and will start them
again when he thinks he wants them. Yes, we were out some money, but he learned
that we trust him to learn what he wants to learn at his own pace.
Just some of my long winded thoughts. Now you know much more about me than
you ever wanted to!
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
adonai@... writes:
> Now what is a child learning when he isI took up book binding a while ago, maybe a year and a half ago. It brought
> allowed to make a choice but not allowed to experience the
> consequences of that choice?
>
me great happiness. This involved some considerable cost in the process,
because I really loved choosing handmade papers, wanted a hand drill, had to get
the string and the right glue and all sorts of fun tools to do it. I made a
bunch of little books and then didn't do any more. I think I move on to
decoupage for a while, but what I wanted to do with that - make little treasure boxed
out of torn children's books - was too tedious to hold my attention and the
glue bothered my lungs. I spent time and energy collecting colored on and
ripped children's books from garage sales, collected shoe boxed and such.
Let's see, I also tried knitting when I broke my ankle. Got lots of fun
yarn. I really like yarn. I really don't like knitting. It was really just a
prelude to weaving anyway. Now I'm weaving - spent a whole ton of money on a
used loom, buy yarn and work to my heart's content on it. It also brings me
great happiness. I've made three baby blankets now and am going to do two or
three more before moving on to rag rugs. I've been saving rags and old clothes
for years in anticipation
These are just the last two years, maybe, of my endeavors. Before that it
was canning (which I still do), picking (which I don't do anymore, but was
prolific at for a while), needlepoint, cross-stitch, bike riding, braided rag rugs,
watercolor painting, etc. My husband may roll his eyes at my whims and
interests, but he loves my enthusiasm and my need to be creative. ("This one is
going to change my live, dear!) He's never held me to doing something I grew
tired of. He's never forced me to complete a project because I spent good money
on it.
I've learned a lot in my time with these courses of study. Even if I didn't
stay with it. I'm happy to have done everything I've tried. Most of all I've
learned to follow my passion. Weaving may be it. Or maybe pottery will be
next, who knows?
How would you feel if your husband was the one who was interested in
photography (mine was) and took a course or spent thousands of dollars (speaking from
experience) on equipment? Would you force him to take pictures even if he was
no longer interested?
Contract or no, you can't really force a creative impulse that doesn't exist
or has withered away. My son is five now, loves his violin, but hates
lessons. We stopped the lessons at his three year old request and will start them
again when he thinks he wants them. Yes, we were out some money, but he learned
that we trust him to learn what he wants to learn at his own pace.
Just some of my long winded thoughts. Now you know much more about me than
you ever wanted to!
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/31/03 11:31:36 AM, ejcrewe@... writes:
<< It was really just a
prelude to weaving anyway. Now I'm weaving >>
You could bind a book with a hand-woven cloth cover!
Sandra
<< It was really just a
prelude to weaving anyway. Now I'm weaving >>
You could bind a book with a hand-woven cloth cover!
Sandra
[email protected]
adonai@... writes:
experience and knowledge involved in that part. That's the parent's job to find
out so the child can truly choose. You said that he was unaware that there
was going to be so much book learning involved? Doesn't that make it a null
and void contract?
It does to me, and he did learn consequences, that the course was not
for him and he cannot learn photography that way. He learned about himself
and what he wants and will learn photography another way. He learned that he
needs to have a clearer idea of what something entails BEFORE he chooses to
commit himself.
If you really wanted him to learn about contracts and consequences,
this is a great experience! If you get involved and make choices for him, it'll
undo what he's learning. How does that help him? If you really want him to
understand commitment and contracts when he is an adult, why would you
interfere with that learning process at this time, when the lesson is here for him to
learn?
You seem to want to literally "teach him a lesson". He's learning it
already, just get out of the way.
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> If I signed a contractThe key here is "freely entered into'. Children sometimes lack the
> specifying that I promised to do something, I would do it, because I
> believe it is unethical to not fulfill a contractual agreement that I
> freely entered into. Now what is a child learning when he is
> allowed to make a choice but not allowed to experience the
> consequences of that choice?
>
experience and knowledge involved in that part. That's the parent's job to find
out so the child can truly choose. You said that he was unaware that there
was going to be so much book learning involved? Doesn't that make it a null
and void contract?
It does to me, and he did learn consequences, that the course was not
for him and he cannot learn photography that way. He learned about himself
and what he wants and will learn photography another way. He learned that he
needs to have a clearer idea of what something entails BEFORE he chooses to
commit himself.
If you really wanted him to learn about contracts and consequences,
this is a great experience! If you get involved and make choices for him, it'll
undo what he's learning. How does that help him? If you really want him to
understand commitment and contracts when he is an adult, why would you
interfere with that learning process at this time, when the lesson is here for him to
learn?
You seem to want to literally "teach him a lesson". He's learning it
already, just get out of the way.
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
ejcrewe@... writes:
but my wrists and hands get sore quickly ( probably from the typing, too, on
lists like this!). Now, I want to try embroidery. I would love to try
weaving as well. And macrame! lol
Us unschoolers are crazy, aren't we, always trying new things and finding out
more about ourselves!? lol When I find out I don't like something or that I
don't want to do it anymore, I just find someone else who's interested and
give my stuff to them for cheap or free, and they can find out if they like it,
too! I love that!!
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Just some of my long winded thoughts. Now you know much more about me thanYou sound so much like me! But it's crocheting, not knitting, and I liked it
>
> you ever wanted to!
>
> Elizabeth
but my wrists and hands get sore quickly ( probably from the typing, too, on
lists like this!). Now, I want to try embroidery. I would love to try
weaving as well. And macrame! lol
Us unschoolers are crazy, aren't we, always trying new things and finding out
more about ourselves!? lol When I find out I don't like something or that I
don't want to do it anymore, I just find someone else who's interested and
give my stuff to them for cheap or free, and they can find out if they like it,
too! I love that!!
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/31/2003 1:10:34 PM Central Standard Time,
AimeeL73@... writes:
What a great idea! I need to clear some of my stuff out of my basement and
give it to someone else. I did once sell all my cross stitch and needlepoint
kits on eBay for $1 each. Mostly, I just collect this stuff, hoping to
someday go back to it!
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
AimeeL73@... writes:
> When I find out I don't like something or that IAimee -
> don't want to do it anymore, I just find someone else who's interested and
> give my stuff to them for cheap or free, and they can find out if they like
> it,
> too! I love that!!
>
What a great idea! I need to clear some of my stuff out of my basement and
give it to someone else. I did once sell all my cross stitch and needlepoint
kits on eBay for $1 each. Mostly, I just collect this stuff, hoping to
someday go back to it!
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/31/2003 1:08:16 PM Central Standard Time,
adonai@... writes:
it out after trying it for a while.
it stinks that you spent so much money on it and he ended up not liking it.
I wish there had been a cheaper way for him to learn that.
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
adonai@... writes:
> I'm sitting here thinking, how could I ever have known that thisOh, Judee, I don't think you or he could ever have known that! He just found
> wasn't the right choice for him, when he told me it's what he wanted?
>
it out after trying it for a while.
it stinks that you spent so much money on it and he ended up not liking it.
I wish there had been a cheaper way for him to learn that.
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
adonai@... writes:
success, you found the info he wanted.
I'm actually looking for a science/chemistry/biology curriculum, or
textbook, anything, because that seems to be the only way I can find the info I
need to find for Alex. But buying that is not going to mean that he has to
use the whole thing, it's just the way they put it together, and I have to *buy*
the whole thing.
Hoping I can buy just those subjects, not going to buy a whole
year's worth of curriculum for that. Just because I buy a curriculum, tho, doesnt'
mean I'm going to expect worksheets and tests, much less handed in on time,
I'm just gonna say, hey this looks like it's got some of that stuff you wanted
to know.
He just won't use all of it, or the way it was designed to be used, or
he'll paste his walls with the cool pictures, or whatever. I don't care, I
only care that he had an interest, I respected that and did the best I could on
getting him what he needed. The rest is up to him.
Maybe look at this the same way? You did your best getting him what
he needed, and he just didn't need the whole, just parts. Or that it'll take
longer than two years, or less, or whatever. Maybe there *was* no other way to
get that info than what you did. And I'll join you in complaining that that
sucks! But that's the way some things are still, until there's more
unschoolers and eclectic homeschoolers wanting to pick and choose, then the market will
respond to that.
<<So I guess the "right thing" is for me to just suck it up and pay the
money, but for my son to not have to do anything. Wish I could get
the people in MY life to let me get away with that.
Sorry, guess I'm just having a crappy failure of a day.
Judie>>
I have a headache, and ants have invaded because my hubby and son don't walk
the garbage to the kitchen they play hoops with the living room garbage can
instead ( and obviously miss a lot!), and I have to go visit at a relatives
house I can't stand, in the rain, which I hate to drive in, and there's
construction there, which I also hate to drive in.
Ack!
I feel your pain!
I'm going to go and help my niece celebrate her birthday, tho, so it's not a
total loss.
And we're watching the ants trail in and out and trying to find out where
they came in on the THIRD FLOOR. I wish I could see them going up the outside of
the bldg, lol.
Just try to look on the bright side of life. Some days it's harder to see
than others.
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I'm sitting here thinking, how could I ever have known that thisLook at it this way, you've paid for the info, he has it, so that's a
> wasn't the right choice for him, when he told me it's what he wanted?
>
> We tried other avenues to find the information, most of the books
> didn't go into the detail that we wanted. This seemed the only way
> to get the information.
success, you found the info he wanted.
I'm actually looking for a science/chemistry/biology curriculum, or
textbook, anything, because that seems to be the only way I can find the info I
need to find for Alex. But buying that is not going to mean that he has to
use the whole thing, it's just the way they put it together, and I have to *buy*
the whole thing.
Hoping I can buy just those subjects, not going to buy a whole
year's worth of curriculum for that. Just because I buy a curriculum, tho, doesnt'
mean I'm going to expect worksheets and tests, much less handed in on time,
I'm just gonna say, hey this looks like it's got some of that stuff you wanted
to know.
He just won't use all of it, or the way it was designed to be used, or
he'll paste his walls with the cool pictures, or whatever. I don't care, I
only care that he had an interest, I respected that and did the best I could on
getting him what he needed. The rest is up to him.
Maybe look at this the same way? You did your best getting him what
he needed, and he just didn't need the whole, just parts. Or that it'll take
longer than two years, or less, or whatever. Maybe there *was* no other way to
get that info than what you did. And I'll join you in complaining that that
sucks! But that's the way some things are still, until there's more
unschoolers and eclectic homeschoolers wanting to pick and choose, then the market will
respond to that.
<<So I guess the "right thing" is for me to just suck it up and pay the
money, but for my son to not have to do anything. Wish I could get
the people in MY life to let me get away with that.
Sorry, guess I'm just having a crappy failure of a day.
Judie>>
I have a headache, and ants have invaded because my hubby and son don't walk
the garbage to the kitchen they play hoops with the living room garbage can
instead ( and obviously miss a lot!), and I have to go visit at a relatives
house I can't stand, in the rain, which I hate to drive in, and there's
construction there, which I also hate to drive in.
Ack!
I feel your pain!
I'm going to go and help my niece celebrate her birthday, tho, so it's not a
total loss.
And we're watching the ants trail in and out and trying to find out where
they came in on the THIRD FLOOR. I wish I could see them going up the outside of
the bldg, lol.
Just try to look on the bright side of life. Some days it's harder to see
than others.
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 8/31/03 7:34 AM, Judie C. Rall at adonai@... wrote:
makes it confusing if both ethical "obligations" and legal obligations are
mixed together.
A contract is a legally binding document. If an adult goes back on the
agreement the adult can have some legal action taken against them. Though
adults may feel ethically bound to a contract, the real issue is that
they're legally bound. A child isn't legally bound until they're 18 (or 16
maybe or it may depend on the state).
Outside of legal obligations are obligations we *choose* to accept. The
obligations aren't forced on us as in a contract we've signed. We *decide*
to adhere to the obligations because it suits our internal sense of
rightness to do so.
If someone makes us stick to an obligation then it isn't a moral choice.
It's something that's being forced on us.
As adults we get to choose. If you promised to do something you'd *choose*
to follow through. Which means that you *could* choose not to follow through
but you are *freely* choosing to make the sacrifice to follow through.
*Lots* of people equate not wanting the alternative chocies with not having
a choice. They aren't the same at all and it muddles thinking to mix the two
together. Choosing to stay home when the door is unlocked because you prefer
to stay home is not the same as staying home because you can't get out.
If someone is forced to follow through then their free choice is taken away.
They *aren't* honoring an obligation but doing what they're told. What's
being modeled isn't that promises are sacred but that bigger people can make
littler people do what the bigger people want them to do.
Your son isn't old enough to understand what the course involved. Even if
you'd read exactly what it was to him and explained it up and down, he just
doesn't have the life experience to understand how that translates into what
he's going to have to do and what he's going to feel compared to what he's
going to get out of it.
He *will* honor his obligations when he's older because he'll be free to
choose and he'll know the consequences. The consequences will be personal to
him: it will be his money or his friends he's letting down or his reputation
he's putting on the line. All that will make sense to him when he's older.
Right now the consequences are all pretend and virtual. He can't feel what
an earned $500 feels like because he isn't an adult. That understanding will
come when he's earning his own money and having to make decisions about
where it can and should be spent.
Joyce
> I'm sorry, but I just don't understand what is wrong with lettingI think it would help to not bring the contract into the thought problem. It
> kids be responsible for their own actions. If I signed a contract
> specifying that I promised to do something, I would do it, because I
> believe it is unethical to not fulfill a contractual agreement that I
> freely entered into. Now what is a child learning when he is
> allowed to make a choice but not allowed to experience the
> consequences of that choice?
makes it confusing if both ethical "obligations" and legal obligations are
mixed together.
A contract is a legally binding document. If an adult goes back on the
agreement the adult can have some legal action taken against them. Though
adults may feel ethically bound to a contract, the real issue is that
they're legally bound. A child isn't legally bound until they're 18 (or 16
maybe or it may depend on the state).
Outside of legal obligations are obligations we *choose* to accept. The
obligations aren't forced on us as in a contract we've signed. We *decide*
to adhere to the obligations because it suits our internal sense of
rightness to do so.
If someone makes us stick to an obligation then it isn't a moral choice.
It's something that's being forced on us.
As adults we get to choose. If you promised to do something you'd *choose*
to follow through. Which means that you *could* choose not to follow through
but you are *freely* choosing to make the sacrifice to follow through.
*Lots* of people equate not wanting the alternative chocies with not having
a choice. They aren't the same at all and it muddles thinking to mix the two
together. Choosing to stay home when the door is unlocked because you prefer
to stay home is not the same as staying home because you can't get out.
If someone is forced to follow through then their free choice is taken away.
They *aren't* honoring an obligation but doing what they're told. What's
being modeled isn't that promises are sacred but that bigger people can make
littler people do what the bigger people want them to do.
Your son isn't old enough to understand what the course involved. Even if
you'd read exactly what it was to him and explained it up and down, he just
doesn't have the life experience to understand how that translates into what
he's going to have to do and what he's going to feel compared to what he's
going to get out of it.
He *will* honor his obligations when he's older because he'll be free to
choose and he'll know the consequences. The consequences will be personal to
him: it will be his money or his friends he's letting down or his reputation
he's putting on the line. All that will make sense to him when he's older.
Right now the consequences are all pretend and virtual. He can't feel what
an earned $500 feels like because he isn't an adult. That understanding will
come when he's earning his own money and having to make decisions about
where it can and should be spent.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/31/03 2:07:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
adonai@... writes:
class as doing the right thing for him. Instead of wasting his time in a
class that he isn't interested in. A class that just might crush a love of
photography (I think that was the class ; )) He had the strength of character to
decide that it wasn't for him, and to do something about it. He could have sat
there class after class looking out the window, not listening or absorbing
anything. Wondering what was going on outside those walls. That would have
been an easy thing to do in some circumstances. Easier, maybe, than standing up
and saying "I know you paid a lot for this class but....."
And in the future when he is at a job that he hates he will remember that he
has a choice. He can leave and find the "right" path for him. He will
remember that his Mom said he did the right thing by leaving a boring class and that
he did have a choice. He could follow his passions.
Just another thought.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
adonai@... writes:
> So I guess the "right thing" is for me to just suck it up and pay theMaybe you could try looking at it a little differently. Think of leaving the
> money, but for my son to not have to do anything. Wish I could get
> the people in MY life to let me get away with that.
>
> Sorry, guess I'm just having a crappy failure of a day.
>
>
class as doing the right thing for him. Instead of wasting his time in a
class that he isn't interested in. A class that just might crush a love of
photography (I think that was the class ; )) He had the strength of character to
decide that it wasn't for him, and to do something about it. He could have sat
there class after class looking out the window, not listening or absorbing
anything. Wondering what was going on outside those walls. That would have
been an easy thing to do in some circumstances. Easier, maybe, than standing up
and saying "I know you paid a lot for this class but....."
And in the future when he is at a job that he hates he will remember that he
has a choice. He can leave and find the "right" path for him. He will
remember that his Mom said he did the right thing by leaving a boring class and that
he did have a choice. He could follow his passions.
Just another thought.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 8/31/03 1:23 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
;-)
Or maybe it involves somersaults? I did see kids rolling down the hill at
the park at the conference.
Joyce
> roll-playing gameIs this like a ball game except done with rolls? Kaiser? Dinner? Hamburger?
;-)
Or maybe it involves somersaults? I did see kids rolling down the hill at
the park at the conference.
Joyce
Fetteroll
on 8/31/03 1:24 PM, ejcrewe@... at ejcrewe@... wrote:
ourselves.
Sticking with something isn't that hard to learn. You just grit your teeth
and push on.
But learning to assess whether a situation will return more to us than it
will take from us if we continue is a very useful lesson to learn. In fact
decision making was a course in engineering college. Personally I think it
was too little too late. We were all trained by school that to start
something was to stick with it. (We didn't have a choice!) And, as a side
lesson, that sometimes it's best not to take chances because you might get
stuck with something you don't want. :-/
Life should be a joyful exploration not a burden of obligation to finish
what we begin.
Joyce
> I've learned a lot in my time with these courses of study. Even if I didn'tYes, every time we go through the decision to quit we learn more about
> stay with it.
ourselves.
Sticking with something isn't that hard to learn. You just grit your teeth
and push on.
But learning to assess whether a situation will return more to us than it
will take from us if we continue is a very useful lesson to learn. In fact
decision making was a course in engineering college. Personally I think it
was too little too late. We were all trained by school that to start
something was to stick with it. (We didn't have a choice!) And, as a side
lesson, that sometimes it's best not to take chances because you might get
stuck with something you don't want. :-/
Life should be a joyful exploration not a burden of obligation to finish
what we begin.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/31/03 1:14:57 PM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< Or maybe it involves somersaults? I did see kids rolling down the hill at
the park at the conference. >>
Yeah. Athletic role playing.
Roler blading. <g>
<< Or maybe it involves somersaults? I did see kids rolling down the hill at
the park at the conference. >>
Yeah. Athletic role playing.
Roler blading. <g>
Fetteroll
on 8/31/03 8:47 AM, Judie C. Rall at adonai@... wrote:
of a payback. To watch someone else suffer because others made us suffer.
There's a satisfaction in having the power to treat others as poorly as we
were treated.
But would you have wanted your parents (or husband) to treat you that way?
Would you have wanted them to deny you happiness, or to increase your
unhappiness simply because their parents made them miserable and they didn't
want you to be happier than they were ever allowed to be?
Sandra often says something about looking back at how our parents handled a
situation and then doing it the way we would have wanted our parents to
treat us.
the burden joyfully yourself, the more likely people are to help.
Joyce
> So I guess the "right thing" is for me to just suck it up and pay theI think lots of people don't want to give what others denied them. It's sort
> money, but for my son to not have to do anything.
of a payback. To watch someone else suffer because others made us suffer.
There's a satisfaction in having the power to treat others as poorly as we
were treated.
But would you have wanted your parents (or husband) to treat you that way?
Would you have wanted them to deny you happiness, or to increase your
unhappiness simply because their parents made them miserable and they didn't
want you to be happier than they were ever allowed to be?
Sandra often says something about looking back at how our parents handled a
situation and then doing it the way we would have wanted our parents to
treat us.
> Wish I could getThe less you expect it of others and the more you are willing to shoulder
> the people in MY life to let me get away with that.
the burden joyfully yourself, the more likely people are to help.
Joyce