[email protected]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 13:50:44 -0000 "Deniz Martinez"
<denizmartinez@...> writes:
>Amazingly, the infant brain can not only learn the sounds of
> multiple languages at this time, but can file them correctly in the
> correct language "box" and thus become fluent in as many languages
> as it is regularly exposed to during this time.

I'm a little confused by what you're saying, because some of what I think
you're saying say here conflicts with what I think you're saying below...
but there's a difference between learning an accent and learning an
actual language. Yes, the younger you are when exposed to a language, the
more likely you are to develop a native accent. However, given the same
conditions, adults are actually more proficient at learning a language.
Unfortunately, most adults don't learn in an immersion situation, but in
isolated sessions.The military gets people fluent within months...

The other thing to remember is that a toddler is learning language on a
toddler level - his vocabulary will be smaller, his grammatical
structures will be simpler. An adult speaking "toddler" Spanish wouldn't
be considered fluent at all...

The studies I've read did show that children being raised bi (or more)
lingual will, on average, have slower language development until about 4
or 5, when they catch up, They defined this as smaller vocabularies, more
simple sentence structures, and similar attributes.

Dar

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/16/03 11:54:44 AM, freeform@... writes:

<< The military gets people fluent within months... >>

The Mormon missionaries do a pretty good job of it too!

Deniz Martinez

--- In [email protected], freeform@j... wrote:

> I'm a little confused by what you're saying, because some of what I
>think you're saying say here conflicts with what I think you're
>saying below...
>but there's a difference between learning an accent and learning an
>actual language. Yes, the younger you are when exposed to a
>language, the more likely you are to develop a native accent.
>However, given the same conditions, adults are actually more
>proficient at learning a language.
>Unfortunately, most adults don't learn in an immersion situation,
>but in isolated sessions.The military gets people fluent within
months...
>
>The other thing to remember is that a toddler is learning language
>on a toddler level - his vocabulary will be smaller, his grammatical
>structures will be simpler. An adult speaking "toddler" Spanish
>wouldn't be considered fluent at all...

This is all true--but I wasn't talking about vocabulary, I was
talking about mastering the basic building blocks of the language
itself, namely the sound library (phonemes). Each language has its
own specific phoneme set--for example, English has about 40 of them,
as does Arabic; Japanese only has about 25, and some African
languages have over 100!

The theory is that a human infant is born capable of distinguishing
between and later mimicing any and all possible phonemes, but over
the first couple of years of life this remarkable ability fades as
the child develops a preference for the phonemes of the particular
language(s) it hears more frequently. Any Arab will tell you that
even the most fluent well-trained U.S. military translator just can
never get that glottal stop quite right no matter how hard he
tries. ;)

Then there are the "tonal" languages such as Mandarin Chinese and
Thai, where changes in vowel pitch lead to changes in meaning. In
Mandarin for instance, a word as simple as "ba" could mean one of
five different things, depending on whether the "a" is pitched with a
high, short rise, short fall then rise, or fall tone.

Again, the theory is that it is much harder for a native speaker of a
nontonal language to truly master a tonal language after infancy.

>The studies I've read did show that children being raised bi (or
>more) lingual will, on average, have slower language development
>until about 4 or 5, when they catch up, They defined this as smaller
>vocabularies, more simple sentence structures, and similar
>attributes.

I've seen that research as well, although I haven't been quite
convinced by it yet. Even if that is the case though, I think it's a
fair trade-off to be "behind" (whatever that means) the first few
years if it means you end up being able to speak two or more
languages fluently as an adult. :)

Cheers,
Deniz

Deniz Martinez

--- In [email protected], "Deniz Martinez"
<denizmartinez@y...> wrote:

> Then there are the "tonal" languages such as Mandarin Chinese and
> Thai, where changes in vowel pitch lead to changes in meaning. In
> Mandarin for instance, a word as simple as "ba" could mean one of
> five different things, depending on whether the "a" is pitched with
> a high, short rise, short fall then rise, or fall tone.

So much for being a mathematician...I meant one of four, not five.
D'oh! :/

(Hey, and Cantonese has 9 tones!!)

Deniz

[email protected]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 23:59:15 -0000 "Deniz Martinez"
<denizmartinez@...> writes:
> This is all true--but I wasn't talking about vocabulary, I was
> talking about mastering the basic building blocks of the language
> itself, namely the sound library (phonemes). Each language has its
> own specific phoneme set--for example, English has about 40 of them,
> as does Arabic; Japanese only has about 25, and some African
> languages have over 100!

I tried to teach myself !Kung for a while, when I was about 8. I really
liked the tongue clicks. That was the year I had a class in school (this
is the funky hippie seventies ungraded Catholic school I went to for 2
years, where we had classes on things like tea-making and the ERA) where
we learned about pygmies, and we built pygmy huts in the woods near the
school and wrote to Colin Turnbull - and he wrote back. So I was 8 and
trying to read these books by anthropologists and pull out vocabulary,
since I never did find a !Kung-English dictionary... didn't get too far,
but I tried.

A couple of years later I was friends with a family from China, who spoke
Mandarin at home. I loved listening to it, and they tried to tech me some
things and I got the concept of the different tones, although I didn't
get much further with it.

I remember a Kingston Trio song from when I was a kid, and there was one
part where a man with an Asian accent says that he was educated at
"UCRA"... and I wondered about where exactly that was and why there was
laughter on the record after that line. I did finally ask my dad...

So it's more than "accent", but I think even people who aren't exposed to
a language as a young child can eventually at least approximate the
necessary phonemes, enough to get by anyway. The other options seem
pretty crazy - play tapes of all known languages weekly, starting at
birth? Move to a new country every 3 months? - so I'm just pretty much
resigned that Rain and any future children I have will never sound like
native speakers of Mandarin, or Yoruba, or a lot of other languages. :)

Dar

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/16/03 11:55:06 PM, freeform@... writes:

<< So it's more than "accent", but I think even people who aren't exposed to
a language as a young child can eventually at least approximate the
necessary phonemes, enough to get by anyway. >>

Some do it really well. Some people learn LOTS of languages, easily, as
adults, with little accent. Its a talent some have. My friend Bob learned Navajo
and Chinese in the same two-year period, and moved to China. He couldn't have
talked about the details of his dreams when he was five in Navajo, maybe, but
he could discuss what was going on, buy things, compliment people.

In China his problems were cultural, not linguistic. He understood perfectly
well what they meant when they said they might get to his home repair next
week. "Next week." What he didn't know was they meant "if it's a cold day in
hell next week." He misinterpretted hand-gestures. He waved back at a cop
who was trying to wave him down, when he was roller-blading through a public
square.

Educational "truth" is always based on statistics and the liklihood of
success with groups, statistically. Not about individuals.

Sandra

Ingrid Bauer

>>The studies I've read did show that children being raised bi (or
>>more) lingual will, on average, have slower language development
>>until about 4 or 5, when they catch up, <<SNIP>>

>I've seen that research as well, although I haven't been quite
>convinced by it yet.

My experience raising my youngest 2 trilingually is that they are noticably slower than some of their peers (and a LOT slower than their older sibling who was speaking in full sentences at 18 months), not speaking much at all until about 20 months (well babbling plenty). Then they suddenly take off, spurting tons of new vocabularly every day and i'd say are fully "caught up" (if you're comparing) just over 2 yo except that they are speaking in 3 languages.

This isn't true for all children though--a friend's children (5 and 7) are both clearly behind their peers in languages and general understanding but I'm pretty sure that there are other factors at play in terms of how language rich their environment is.

i also believe that musicality may play a part. I am very musical as are my children and pick up languages and accents easily. My tone deaf husband can not for the life of him hear the difference between "red" and "reed" and his French accent is *extremely* strong. He had no music in his house as a child--i was surounded my it. The above children listen to lots of CD's but mostly as background music. Their mom doesn't sing with them (I sing all day long, in many langauges :-)) and they seem to be pretty tone-deaf when they sing (you know, that mono-tone chanting of the lyrics).

Both my younger children (6.5 yo and 27 months) clearly kept the languages apart by about 24 months unless they didn't know the word in another language and both children also sometimes "translated" for the other parent, switching into that parents language to tell us what was going on in case we didn't get it the first time :-). It's not uncommon for my dd (27 months) to say something to her dad in French, turn to me and tell me what she's going to do with her dad in german and then tell her brother in English.

This is an intersting subject to me. Any other multilingual familes out there?

ingrid


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/18/03 3:40:07 AM, ingrid@... writes:

<< This isn't true for all children though--a friend's children (5 and 7) are
both clearly behind their peers in languages and general understanding but
I'm pretty sure that there are other factors at play in terms of how language
rich their environment is. >>

Even in "mono-lingual" homes kids can't learn words they don't hear!
But if the concept of linguistic intelligence is legitimate (and it seems to
be), then those with talent will do better more easily than those whose
talents lie elsewhere.

<<i also believe that musicality may play a part. I am very musical as are my
children and pick up languages and accents easily. My tone deaf husband can
not for the life of him hear the difference between "red" and "reed" and his
French accent is *extremely* strong. He had no music in his house as a child--i
was surounded my it.>>

I bet that's true.

I'm "tone deaf" to a great extent with tastes and smells. Sometimes I
recognize one, and sometimes I don't. But people who are great with spices or
wine-tasting or perfume-design have a skill I just can't even clearly imagine.
But I can sing, and I can remember the smallest details of a tune after years
and years, and can recognize differences it's hard to even describe to other
people. It's not worth much. <g>

Here's a quote fom a paper by a professor of Journalism, about linguisting
intelligence. Sorry it's in academic-speech, but there are some good bits:


-=-A well-developed linguistic intelligence shows itself in attention to
words, overtones of words, relations among them, syntax, and the beauty and
substance of style. It is the most obvious element in what we mean by "good
writing." Poets show how experts use this intelligence (Gardner discusses Eliot,
Spender, and others) but it is also present in word play, puns, and even crossword
puzzles.

-=-Language, the chief product of linguistic intelligence, is surprisingly
flexible. The deaf can learn language, and people can learn to read language
through totally different symbol-processing systems --through a sound-oriented
system of syllables (like our alphabet) or through a visually-oriented system of
ideograms (like Chinese symbols). Studies indicate that syllables and
ideograms are processed in entirely different areas of the brain, yet the linguistic
intelligence can successfully make use of either method of encoding. It is
characteristic of an intelligence, in Gardner's view, to appropriate whatever facu
lties or senses it needs, without being entirely dependent upon any of them.
Gardner's linguistic intelligence includes qualities of both left and right
hemispheric processing of language--both language in the linear sense and
language in the enfolded, holistic sense. The linguistic intelligence appears to be
a combination of several differently evolved systems--expressive gesture,
intonation, the cognitive abilities of naming and classifying, and syntactical
parsing. -=-

<A HREF="http://www.longleaf.net/ggrow/7In/Linguistic.html">Linguistic
IntelligenceLinguistic Intelligence</A>

http://www.longleaf.net/ggrow/7In/Linguistic.html

glad2bmadly

Wow. Your kids speak in three languages? My two, 6 and 3, are being raised bilingually. The older one didn't use words until he was almost two and then had amazing vocabulary and sentences within weeks. The younger one was speaking English by the time he was 18 months.

My husband is French speaking Belgian. He does his best to only speak in French to them but it is difficult for him as he has lived here since he was 16. He and his mother and siblings only speak in French to one another but they are all completely fluent in English and use it every where else in their lives. I think it is easier for kids to use more than one language when there is a reason, like only being able to communicate with a parent by speaking his/her language. Ours know that Papa speaks English so they don't have to speak French. So they don't, even when he is speaking it to them. It frustrates him. But they undersatnd him fluently and when they do speak French it is with a beautiful native accent.

My husband's sister lived in Japan with her kids and they spoke French at home, English when they were in English school, and Japanese when they were in Japanese school. They preferred speaking the language they used in school, at home as well. Now they are moving to NY and will be in French school.

I think, like with anything, when there is pressure or there are expectations involved, it can cause resistance to learning. There are times when my husband has his father's (who lives in France) expectations of his grandchildren in his head. DH wants our kids speaking French by the time we go to France to visit. But funds are so low I think the pressure is thankfully off for quite a while!

maddie

Ingrid Bauer <ingrid@...> wrote:

...I also believe that musicality may play a part. I am very musical as are my children and pick up languages and accents easily. My tone deaf husband can not for the life of him hear the difference between "red" and "reed" and his French accent is *extremely* strong. He had no music in his house as a child--i was surounded my it. The above children listen to lots of CD's but mostly as background music. Their mom doesn't sing with them (I sing all day long, in many langauges :-)) and they seem to be pretty tone-deaf when they sing (you know, that mono-tone chanting of the lyrics).

Both my younger children (6.5 yo and 27 months) clearly kept the languages apart by about 24 months unless they didn't know the word in another language and both children also sometimes "translated" for the other parent, switching into that parents language to tell us what was going on in case we didn't get it the first time :-). It's not uncommon for my dd (27 months) to say something to her dad in French, turn to me and tell me what she's going to do with her dad in german and then tell her brother in English.

This is an intersting subject to me. Any other multilingual familes out there?

ingrid


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
> My husband is French speaking Belgian. He does his best to only speak in
French to them but it is difficult for him as he has lived here since he was
16. He and his mother and siblings only speak in French to one another but
they are all completely fluent in English and use it every where else in
their lives. I think it is easier for kids to use more than one language
when there is a reason, like only being able to communicate with a parent by
speaking his/her language. Ours know that Papa speaks English so they don't
have to speak French. So they don't, even when he is speaking it to them.
It frustrates him. But they undersatnd him fluently and when they do speak
French it is with a beautiful native accent.

> I think, like with anything, when there is pressure or there are
expectations involved, it can cause resistance to learning. There are times
when my husband has his father's (who lives in France) expectations of his
grandchildren in his head. DH wants our kids speaking French by the time we
go to France to visit. But funds are so low I think the pressure is
thankfully off for quite a while!

I have friends who did this in Germany. They also understood English but
didn't speak it . . . until they came to the US for the first time. It took
about the first week, and then they were speaking fluently. Don't
underestimate the value of having heard it lots. That's how little kids
seem to explode into language once they get going. They've been hearing it
for a lot longer than they've been trying to speak it.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Deniz Martinez

> This is an intersting subject to me. Any other multilingual familes
>out there?

Yes...my husband was raised bilingual in Spanish and English, I was
raised bilingual in English and Turkish, and so the kids are learning
all three languages (unfortunately, not being as immersed in the
Spanish and Turkish as I would've liked, but that's our fault as the
parents for being too damned comfortable speaking in English all the
time, LOL). Thanks goodness that Dora the Explorer picks up some of
the Spanish slack, and great-grandma speaks Turkish to them so they
hear some of that from her... :)

I have always had a love of languages--the more languages you can
speak, the more people you can communicate with! Over the years, I
have attained (and sometimes subsequently lost, unfortunately)
various degrees of proficiency in German, Spanish, Azeri, Uzbek,
Persian (Farsi), Kurdish, Arabic...and I learned to at least count
and say a few basic phrases in several other languages as well. :)

My husband is also fluent in several "street" dialects, if that
counts...LOL...his native tongue is a sort of Spanglish-skate punk-
ghetto dialect, indigenous to certain parts of East LA, LOL...

Deniz ;)

[email protected]

When our children were younger we devised a scheme for my husband to share
his Spanish as he is Spanish/English bilingual. We used a very specific time
for him to speak with the children in Spanish. He was in charge of baths and
all the bathtime stuff was done in Spanish. When we get together (very
infrequently as it is international travel w/ 6 children) with the other relatives my
kids have some basis for conversation.
Unfortunately, I do not have any grounding in Spanish, my second language (if
you can call it that) being Chinese, but I am much more fluent in the written
not the spoken. So it was very hard to naturally use Spanish with me around.

Now that the kids are older they resist to varying degrees any Spanish but
they have the ear and when they do speak they have the native accent. So
finding that set-aside time was very helpful to them.

My eldest is in his first year of college (1st few days actually) Yikes, and
he just tested out of the beginning Spanish conversation without ever
"studying" Spanish. It will be interesting to see where he goes with that.

Just some thoughts,
Beth


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ingrid Bauer

<< I think it is easier for kids to use more than one language when there is a reason, like only being able to communicate with a parent by speaking his/her language. Ours know that Papa speaks English so they don't have to speak French.>>

Our kids papa also speaks English, and I speak all three languages (German, English, French). I definitely agree that,as in everything, having a context for learning the language gives life to the learning. For our children so far, the conte4xt is the pleasure of sharing that language with their respective parent. We also offer lots of context like reading books in that language, songs, games, videos, and sometimes even other friends who are bilingual. The main context is living life in general though :-).

<<But they undersatnd him fluently and when they do speak French it is with a beautiful native accent.>>

They have it in their ear/brain now, for life. My oldest (18) with whom i spoke German only for the first three years hardly understands a word but he can say things he doesn't understand with a beautiful acccent :-).

<<DH wants our kids speaking French by the time we go to France to visit.>>

From everything I've heard from friends, they'd probably be speaking fluent French within 2 weeks of arriving. Being in the country is the best reason ever to speak the language. Just stay long enough since you have to fly all that way first.

warmly,
ingrid


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ingrid Bauer

<<We used a very specific time
for him to speak with the children in Spanish. He was in charge of baths and
all the bathtime stuff was done in Spanish. When we get together (very
infrequently as it is international travel w/ 6 children) with the other relatives my
kids have some basis for conversation.

LOL! I'm imagining your entire extended family sitting together in the bathtub, chatting happily away!

ingrid


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]