[email protected]

>>>>But then I thought that maybe that wasn't entirely true. Maybe other
unschoolers do find that unschooling has its problems, maybe even ones I would
agree with. So, I decided to ask you all. Does unschooling have its own
problems? I don't think it's perfect, but I do think it <i>works</i>, while school
does not.<<<<

I think Rhonda hit the nail on the head---although it isn't true for every
family----with the grandparent/in-law/stranger issue.

Unschooling is still new and radical and, well....weird for too many people.
So you sometimes have to explain a lot. The lack of understanding in the
general public (their OWN brainwashing) makes it hard to be accepted, much less
mainstream.

I'm happy in my own little unschooling world---and, at the same time, I do
what I can to publicize the GOOD of unschooling---like putting on a conference
(The Live & Learn UNschooling Conference in Columbia, SC August 22-24, 2003).

Ben jokes that I've brainwashed Cameron and Duncan---especially Duncan (7),
who will pipe up with how AWFUL school is and how poorly they treat kids and
why would anybody want to spend one hour there, much less 12-14 YEARS! <BWG>

But I think the only "negative" would be the lack of understanding---and not
just understanding, but also the lack of information available. People don't
even know it EXISTS!

I keep thinking that it needs to be announced on some national tv
show---Oprah (who thinks school is the be-all-end-all) or Bill Maher (good forum, but I
don't think he LIKES kids!). Larry King? Too conservative a viewer? Phil
Donahue *might* could have pulled it off a few years ago, but.... 60 Minutes,
maybe. But a bunch of old "academically-minded" fogies probably couldn't grasp the
concept.

See? It's just not mainstream enough. You'd think someone would WANT to stir
things up with such a radical concept! Howard Stern? <g>

It just won't happen anytime soon! Until then, WE are the spokespeople!

~Kelly

Shyrley

kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

>>>>>But then I thought that maybe that wasn't entirely true. Maybe other
>>>>>
>>>>>
>unschoolers do find that unschooling has its problems, maybe even ones I would
>agree with. So, I decided to ask you all. Does unschooling have its own
>problems? I don't think it's perfect, but I do think it <i>works</i>, while school
>does not.<<<<
>
>I think Rhonda hit the nail on the head---although it isn't true for every
>family----with the grandparent/in-law/stranger issue.
>
>Unschooling is still new and radical and, well....weird for too many people.
>So you sometimes have to explain a lot. The lack of understanding in the
>general public (their OWN brainwashing) makes it hard to be accepted, much less
>mainstream.
>
>
>
And that is the hardest part for me. Because the majority of people I
meet in Virginia do 'school at home' it
has led to severe loneliness for me and the kids. I'm a social person.
Back home neighbours were always dropping
by for coffee cos they were passing, there were lots of HE families,
most of whom unschooled and the town had
a sense of community in that we'd walk to the shops most days, say Hi to
John in the Greengrocers, joke with Ian
in the Butchers etc etc
I tried really hard when we moved here, got a group going, went to
everything but people found me odd, didn't like
the questions their kids then asked about why they had to do workbooks
while mine didn't and basically, preferred
superficial meetings in parks rather than real friendship.
Unschooling, combined with soul-less suburbs and the need to go
everywhere in a metal box has made living in
Virginia an ordeal rather than an experience to be savoured :-(

I can't wait to get back and unschool in a community again.

Shyrley


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/5/2003 10:02:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
shyrley@... writes:

> I can't wait to get back and unschool in a community again.
>

You'll get a small, short---but intense---sense of that at the conference.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/5/03 10:02:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
shyrley@... writes:

> Unschooling, combined with soul-less suburbs and the need to go
> everywhere in a metal box has made living in
> Virginia an ordeal rather than an experience to be savoured :-(
>
>

What helped us was to find that other unschooling family. We live in a very
"school at home" atmosphere here but we found the one other unschooling family
and that has made a big difference. Although we do go to play group, etc.,
with the larger group and have fun. I know what you mean about "friendship" vs
"acquaintance."
Pam G


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shyrley

kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

>In a message dated 8/5/2003 10:02:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>shyrley@... writes:
>
>
>
>> I can't wait to get back and unschool in a community again.
>>
>>
>>
>
>You'll get a small, short---but intense---sense of that at the conference.
>
>~Kelly
>
>
>
Must get the pollute-mobile sorted out and print off some maps. I'd
forgotten it was so close now!!
Need to psych myself up for that 500 mile drive. I've never driven that
far before.

Shyrley




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

Hey, Shyrley, are you still into Liam and me stopping at your place on the
way down to the conference? I don't exactly drink coffee, but I'm
sociable, unschooling, and lots of fun (subjectively speaking, of
course). I'm about 6 hours' drive north of you. I'd offer to drive us all
the whole way (since long drives are nuthin' to me), but I have a rather
wee, old, but reliable pollute-mobile that would probably not fit all the
people and their clothes and my guitar. But we could caravan!

~Marji in NY who is enjoying a really good thunderstorm right now. I just
love that sound!

At 10:24 8/5/03 -0400, you wrote:
>Must get the pollute-mobile sorted out and print off some maps. I'd
>forgotten it was so close now!!
>Need to psych myself up for that 500 mile drive. I've never driven that
>far before.
>
>Shyrley


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren

WEll, Jared says unschooling is perfect. Trevor says he's missing out on some social stuff and that's it. He's 13 and really needing to be with peers more lately, but we seem unable to meet his needs entirely. Mainly because I'm working a lot lately, but that will change next week.

I find that it is difficult to balance everyone's priorities sometimes. I know the two little ones need me to read, play and do tactile stuff with them. My oldest would like to be out and about doing things with other people more. Second oldest ds would like more one on one attention. But that's not about unschooling really, in the sense that these issues would exist regardless....actually, MORE so if they were in school. Trevor would get his social needs met, but he'd also deal with the BS that he has NO desire to face. So it's not worth it, even to him.

I find that I don't get to my passions/interests nearly as often as I'd like. I don't get the solitude I crave in order to be creative. But I also know that it is a short term thing...mostly has to do with having a toddler! I think that with unschooling the parents DO have to juggle their interests a bit more, because everyone's interests are of equal value. But why would I want to change THAT? :) yk?
I could be like other parents that don't value their children's interests and STILL don't seem to have passions of their own....
So I see that any challenges faced with unschooling are actually positives when you view the other options.
I like that my children's interests are high priority. I see the genius in them flourishing and that makes everything totally worth it.
I didn't have children so I could put myself first all the time anyway, I just have to remind myself of that after a long day of go, go, go and a bed full of people and NO time to myself.

Yes, unschooling IS perfect. The challenges have encouraged me to grow and proven that it's the ultimate environment to foster creativity and brain growth!!

Welcome to the list Stephanie...great question for discussion!

Ren

Shyrley

marji wrote:

>Hey, Shyrley, are you still into Liam and me stopping at your place on the
>way down to the conference? I don't exactly drink coffee, but I'm
>sociable, unschooling, and lots of fun (subjectively speaking, of
>course). I'm about 6 hours' drive north of you. I'd offer to drive us all
>the whole way (since long drives are nuthin' to me), but I have a rather
>wee, old, but reliable pollute-mobile that would probably not fit all the
>people and their clothes and my guitar. But we could caravan!
>
>~Marji in NY who is enjoying a really good thunderstorm right now. I just
>love that sound!
>
>
>
Sure. You need to stop the night?
Email me and I'll send you my phone numbr. Maybe I'll follow you down so
I ain't so nervous.
I did a round trip of 60 miles today and was a gibbering wreck!

Shyrley

>
>
>
>

Crystal

I asked this to my kids, boy-14 and girl-13. They had the same answer as your son, not enough kids to play with. It's not for lack of trying, either. We have looked. There are unschoolers in my state but they are so few and far between. We mainly find younger kids in area groups. I think that as unschooling grows more popular, the younger kids will have more unschoolers to meet, but the kids our kids age are mainly schooled kids.

Crystal

----- Original Message -----
From: Ren
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 2:11 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-Discussion] is unschooling perfect?

Trevor says he's missing out on some social stuff and that's it. He's 13 and really needing to be with peers more lately, but we seem unable to meet his needs entirely.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Instead of just looking for other unschoolers, look for others who enjoy
whatever it is your kids actually do. Skating, or collectible card games, or
Playstation, or something.

We know other unschoolers but it's because I ran a weekly get-together for
unschoolers for years. It might be worth doing, and it might not be. If your
kids are really young, you could just do a playgroup same place (a park or some
public place) every week and meet more families that way. Some might be able
to play with a four year old in the daytime, but have an eight year old who
could play on weekends, and who knows? Your example might inspire the family to
take their kid out of school.

Sandra

Barb Eaton

Yeah, 13-14yo seems to be the "Oh they need to *do* something" stage for
a lot of parents. And the infamous question of "What are you doing for HIgh
school?" Or even yet, "What High School will they be going to?". It seems
like quite a few here put them in some kind of a program or school at that
age. :-(
I don't know what all the fuss is about. Community College or College
isn't the be all, end all next step to real life. When they _want_ to go,
they go. :-) Well then I am singin' to the Chior. LOL!

Barb E
"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the
affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure
the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty; to find the best on
others; to leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a
garden path, a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed
easier because you have lives. This is to have Succeeded."
Bessie Stanley



on 8/5/03 6:28 PM, Crystal at crystal.pina@... wrote:

> I asked this to my kids, boy-14 and girl-13. They had the same answer as your
> son, not enough kids to play with. It's not for lack of trying, either. We
> have looked. There are unschoolers in my state but they are so few and far
> between. We mainly find younger kids in area groups. I think that as
> unschooling grows more popular, the younger kids will have more unschoolers to
> meet, but the kids our kids age are mainly schooled kids.
>
> Crystal

Barb Eaton

Oh meant to put a rant warning on that one. ;-)


Barb E
"I'd rather be a failure at something I love than a
success at something I hate."


- George Burns, Entertainer

Crystal Pina

Could there be contrived playing? What I mean is if the mothers set
up their kids to play and the kids don't even know each other, don't
you think that's a bit contrived? It's not like these kids met each
other on the playground and formed a friendship. There is a mother
in my state who posted that she was looking for friends for her
teenage son, so I emailed her back saying that I had a son her son's
age and I thought maybe we could set up some sort of game group for
area teens. Thirteen and fourteen are a little old to set up park
days, so we are talking about setting up an online game group through
a network so the kids could play together. On one hand I am trying
to find kids for my kids to play with, something that they've been
asking for, on the other hand I could just picture these kids all
sitting around staring at each other because they don't know one
another. I not sure if I'd like it if my husband set up a mom's day
even if I wanted other mom's to talk to.



--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> Instead of just looking for other unschoolers, look for others who
enjoy
> whatever it is your kids actually do. Skating, or collectible card
games, or
> Playstation, or something.
>
> We know other unschoolers but it's because I ran a weekly get-
together for
> unschoolers for years. It might be worth doing, and it might not
be. If your
> kids are really young, you could just do a playgroup same place (a
park or some
> public place) every week and meet more families that way. Some
might be able
> to play with a four year old in the daytime, but have an eight year
old who
> could play on weekends, and who knows? Your example might inspire
the family to
> take their kid out of school.
>
> Sandra

Barb Eaton

There's a Mom here that move here from out of state. As soon as they
were somewhat settled she got online. Pretty sure her sons were willing to
invite strangers into their home. She set up a gaming day at there house.
Invited others to their fencing practices, etc. It's been great! It's been
relaxed. I've made a new friend and so has my son. *And* ds is getting into
a new sport. :-) I'm so glad she did.


Barb E
"By learning to be with myself, to bring peace to myself,
I can be more effective both in creating happiness in my
own life and in offering a helping hand to others."

- Ingrid Bacci, Author




on 8/5/03 8:25 PM, Crystal Pina at crystal.pina@... wrote:

> Could there be contrived playing? What I mean is if the mothers set
> up their kids to play and the kids don't even know each other, don't
> you think that's a bit contrived? It's not like these kids met each
> other on the playground and formed a friendship. There is a mother
> in my state who posted that she was looking for friends for her
> teenage son, so I emailed her back saying that I had a son her son's
> age and I thought maybe we could set up some sort of game group for
> area teens. Thirteen and fourteen are a little old to set up park
> days, so we are talking about setting up an online game group through
> a network so the kids could play together. On one hand I am trying
> to find kids for my kids to play with, something that they've been
> asking for, on the other hand I could just picture these kids all
> sitting around staring at each other because they don't know one
> another. I not sure if I'd like it if my husband set up a mom's day
> even if I wanted other mom's to talk to.

Tim and Maureen

<<<says he's missing out on some social stuff and that's it. He's 13 and really needing to be with peers more lately, but we seem unable to meet his needs entirely. Mainly because I'm working a lot lately, but that will change next week.>>>>

We are experiencing this as well with our 15 year old. Wants more social but does not want school.I too work parttime but more I am having trouble finding ways for her to meet others just because we don't have a large community plus having to juggle needs of three others.

This has been the hardest thing about unschooling so far.


Maureen





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/5/2003 9:21:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tmthomas@... writes:
> We are experiencing this as well with our 15 year old. Wants more social
> but does not want school.I too work parttime but more I am having trouble
> finding ways for her to meet others just because we don't have a large community
> plus having to juggle needs of three others.
>
> This has been the hardest thing about unschooling so far.

Cameron has a few friends from school still. A couple have gotten into drugs
and drinking a good bit, so he doesn't spend as much time with them---they're
too busy getting high.

The homeschoolers we know are a bit too..."conservative" for his tastes, and
the two other unschoolers share no common interests.

His new friends are co-workers at the deli where he works parttime. One is
18, the other 19. Both skate and like to be filmed. The 18 year old had a part
in a pretty big local skating film last year---both in front of and behind the
camera. Cameron's enjoying picking his brain, and he tells us how good Cameron
is at filming. Most are out of school or attending parttime college.

He'll have his restricted license later this month (maybe by the
conference---that'll help me loads!). The driving is a big deal; it makes it easier for
them to do and to be.

I think the push to find others of the same age is unnecessary---better to
find those with the same interests---regardless of age. If you can get around
the age descrimination, it'll widen his horizons. But many parents wouldn't let
a 15 yo hang with a 19 yo. I think they're good for him. They're fairly
radical (skaters and all! <G>), but they are stable and driven and have passions.
And I trust Cameron.

Cameron wouldn't trade his unschool lifestyle for all the friends in the
world. He's happy and he likes the friends he has.

~Kelly





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/5/03 7:09:44 PM, homemama@... writes:

<< She set up a gaming day at there house. >>

That could work great!

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/5/03 8:04:45 PM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< But many parents wouldn't let
a 15 yo hang with a 19 yo. I think they're good for him. >>

Kirby and Marty have both younger and older friends. It makes lots of sense.
The more experienced gamers or athletes help those newer (regardless of
age), those who can drive provide transport, those with jobs (not always the same
as the drivers) can pay for gas money and snacks. Those who've been to
college or are in college can talk to those who are considering it.

Sandra

marji

At 19:13 8/5/03 -0400, Barb E wrote:
>Well then I am singin' to the Chior. LOL!

Yes, but you sound so goood!

marji

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Liedel

Remember when you were 13? I do, barely. I did not have enough friends.. I
went to public school but did not fit in too well (I was an outspoken broad
even then, wait till I am a crazy old lady) and just had a couple close
friends. I was always whining about not having friends, what I meant was the
social experiences of the popular kids. They always looked like they were
having more fun (you should see the way some of them turned out, sort of
feel vindicated even though it is mean). Anyway all a teen really needs is a
few close friends to hang with. Around here it will be easier because there
are some really good home school groups and one bang up unschooling group
(Ann Arbor, MI) but anywhere else it would be hard, especially if you don't
go to religious meetings every week.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/5/03 8:27:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
crystal.pina@... writes:

> Thirteen and fourteen are a little old to set up park
> days, so we are talking about setting up an online game group through
> a network so the kids could play together. On one hand I am trying
> to find kids for my kids to play with, something that they've been
> asking for, on the other hand I could just picture these kids all
> sitting around staring at each other because they don't know one
> another. I not sure if I'd like it if my husband set up a mom's day
> even if I wanted other mom's to talk to.
>

I can see the point but I think it is harder for kids to form friendships if
the parent doesn't help in some way. Unless they are 15 or 16 they can't
drive anywhere. I know we don't go to church so there aren't any friends that
way. We live on 12 acres not in a housing development. We do get out to do
errands, etc., but most children are in school, not out with their parents doing
errands. If I didn't take my child to play group they would not have developed
friendships. And they don't develop true friendships with everyone. The
ones that they seem to click with they say so and we arrange to do things with
them. They do play with everyone. Putting children together does not mean that
they have to form friendships with everyone.

I think for that age you could set up some sort of a bike day type of thing
so that older children, preteen, teen, could bring bikes, roller blades, etc.,
and get together. That way they wouldn't have to just sit and stare at each
other they could bike. Maybe bring a basketball or soccer ball and see if they
want to get a game going. That way they are playing together.

At the unschooling conference last year I think all the ages of children were
able to make friends and play or talk together. Some were more quiet than
others but it was refreshing to see children that were so outgoing. You may be
surprised.

I think it may be easier for adults although that is not always the case. I
know my best friend has a hard time making friends, her job provides a little
of that. But I did get her a museum membership for Christmas which allows her
to go to the openings etc and she meets interesting people there. I set her
up. She was very happy and thankful.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Crystal

-=Remember when you were 13?=-

I hated being 13! It was the worst time of my life. I was in 7th grade. I had no friends in school at all because all my friends from grammar school went to one class, I was put in another class. Their reason was that I had gotten better grades than my friend in 6th grade. I was put in the "smart" class with kids who had all come from the same school. There were only 3 kids in that class that didn't grow up with the others and I was one of them. I failed all the classes on purpose just to be put back in a regular class with my friends. It worked because in 8th grade I was back in a regular class.

To top it off, it was the year that I started my period. It always seemed to come when I was in class. I had the worst cramps, too. I had to sit through an entire day of school with dirty clothes and cramps because I took the bus to school and my mother didn't drive. My daughter will never have to go through that humiliation.

Crystal


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Crystal

-=If I didn't take my child to play group they would not have developed
friendships.=-

Pam, I definately agree with this. Where we used to live there was a game group that met at the library. We went every week. My daughter makes friends everywhere we go, but my son has a harder time. He prefers the older kids to kids his own age. I think the difference between a game/play group held in a public place and setting up a playdate in someone's house is that when you are in a public place with a group of people your kids have the opportunity to leave, while in someone's house they're kind of stuck there. I think that's the part that's making me squeamish. I would rather the kids meet in a public place where they don't feel forced to be friends.

Crystal




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shyrley

Crystal wrote:

>-=Remember when you were 13?=-
>
>I hated being 13! It was the worst time of my life. I was in 7th grade. I had no friends in school at all because all my friends from grammar school went to one class, I was put in another class. Their reason was that I had gotten better grades than my friend in 6th grade. I was put in the "smart" class with kids who had all come from the same school. There were only 3 kids in that class that didn't grow up with the others and I was one of them. I failed all the classes on purpose just to be put back in a regular class with my friends. It worked because in 8th grade I was back in a regular class.
>
>To top it off, it was the year that I started my period. It always seemed to come when I was in class. I had the worst cramps, too. I had to sit through an entire day of school with dirty clothes and cramps because I took the bus to school and my mother didn't drive. My daughter will never have to go through that humiliation.
>
>Crystal
>
>
>
Thats one thing I thought of. My daughter will never have to worry about
boys tipping out her bag and finding sanitary products.
She'll never have to worry of she's leaking and will it show on her
clothes and be embaressed about asking a teacher if she can
go to the bathroom. I once had a teacher ask why I was taking my bag
with me. The whole class started to titter.
Gawds, what terrible memories.
:-(

Shyrley

Julie Solich

I see the genius in them flourishing and that makes everything totally
worth it.
> I didn't have children so I could put myself first all the time anyway, I
just have to remind myself of that after a long day of go, go, go and a bed
full of people and NO time to myself.
> Ren

It's inspiring too don't you think, seeing that genius in them flourishing?
I would love to have more time just for me but I find myself being more
creative because I'm inspired by the freedom they are enjoying and because
the time I do get is precious I appreciate every minute of it.

Julie




>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

aimeel73

--- In [email protected], Shyrley <shyrley@e...>
wrote:
>
>
>> Need to psych myself up for that 500 mile drive. I've never driven
that
> far before.
>
> Shyrley
>

Hey, I just got back from Canada, posting from the web page, checking
out what ya'll have written while I was gone...I drove just over 650
miles yesterday,(about 12 1/2 hours) and it was tough, but if you
stop as many times as Alex and I did to go potty, hehehe, it's not
bad at all.

Beware of the feeling that you're still moving when you stop....kinda
like the feeling you get when you get off an elevator? It goes away
when you get back in the car, but it can make you wobbly when you get
out of the car!

My advice, if you feel tired or spacey, stop for a moment, stretch,
get a candy bar, whatever, and when you get back in the car, you'll
feel much better. Being safe is more important than making good
time.

~Aimee

Pamela Sorooshian

On Sunday, August 10, 2003, at 10:53 AM, aimeel73 wrote:

>
> My advice, if you feel tired or spacey, stop for a moment, stretch,
> get a candy bar, whatever, and when you get back in the car, you'll
> feel much better. Being safe is more important than making good
> time.

I have earplugs and I pull over in a safe place every two or three
hours - stick 'em in - and go to sleep for 15 minutes. I can do it -
fall sound asleep sitting up with my seat back and the car still
running (to keep the air conditioning going) and the kids sitting
absolutely still because they know its a good idea for me to sleep.

-pam