pink lantern

Hello Julie,

To the contrary. I was merely calling attention
to an obvious attack on another person. You are free to
your opinion as I am. I too, am on a learning journey and do my best
at modelling my behavior, in all situations, even with people
I don't know, just as I'd want to be treated. I am human and therefore
open to error like anyone else. That's ok. It's a learning journey.
I cannot teach what I don't practice. I attempt to walk my talk in
every area of my life, not just a few.

It is difficult to convey heart felt feeling via email for me at times. I
eluded to this in my posting Dr. Rosenberg's wonderful article.

It's too bad it appears some here are simply intent on finding fault
no matter what one posts. Not all here appear to do this for which gives me
hope.

I hope it important to treat all with dignity and respect whether I know
them or not.

Peace to you,
Jeva

> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:30:06 +0800
> From: "Julie Solich" <mjsolich@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Spanking/Gentleness
> So then, rather than finding fault with violent posts shouldn't you just
> concentrate on posting with love and understanding thereby modelling the
> kind of behaviour you think is appropriate? From where I'm reading it
seems
> that you are not following your own advice.
>
>
> Julie

pink lantern

You are welcome Sarah!

As long as the article isn't used commercially (for $$$),
and for personal use only, you are free to print it for personal use.

Jeva

> Message: 21
> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:41:17 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time)
> From: "Sarah K. Groseclose" <CHILDLEDucator@...>
> Subject: Re: Twenty alternatives to punishment
>
> Thank you so much for posting this file. I am sending it to the printer
in
> a moment and will make copies to post around the house. Since it has the
> copyright on it, is it alright for me to copy it for my homeschool support
> group?
> Peace,
> Sarah

pink lantern

Hi Maureen,

Let me explain and thank you for asking so I may clarify.

No, I'm not defensive though I do feel it important to defend
people that appear under attack. I feel we can be extremely honest with one
another
without hurling insults or treating people terribly. It is suggested the
best way to teach
a human being is by modeling that behavior in which we seek that being to
follow. Children learn
from what they witness as do adults. Is it acceptable to only model my
behavior for my children? Would I want my children in later years to read
emails I've posted to a person I don't agree with justifying my abuse and
lack of respect with various excuses because I feel I'm right? Will I
trigger growth for another individual by attacking them? I don't think so.
If I don't attempt to practice the very thing that I'm attempting to convey,
I've lost. Verbal abuse only begets more verbal abuse.

The approach I feel works miracles is to perhaps plant a seed. Instead of
publicly degrading Oom and others no matter what the excuse, perhaps write
something very honest, yet with respect and explaining my fears about the
consequences for her, her child, and future generations of her family of
spanking in any forum. I may also include articles, statistics, or other
helpful information that may spark her and others reading my post to think
before spanking and reconsider the results of their actions.

In Oom's case, instead of attack, I might suggest that as adults we are
responsible for our children in public places and depending on age and
development, certain children can't comprehend not walking into traffic.
Children many times aren't developmentally able to figure the logic of not
walking into a busy street. A good tool near streets and parking lots is to
hold tight to their hand, explaining *prior* to our journey the dangers of
big cars on little (and big) people, using stories, pictures, or how much we
love them and want them to be safe. The message before we even walk out the
door is "I love you, want your safety, big cars can be dangerous, hold my
hand so I can help you be safe, etc..." So this way, before we've even begun
our trip, we've talked about safety, my child knows why I'm holding their
hand or carrying them or using a stroller in difficult situations, etc... Is
it my child's fault he/she walk out into traffic? No, it's my responsibility
to teach them about such things before the fact and holding them or tight to
their hand until I feel they are developmentally able to understand the
danger. I can only share my experience strength and hope. I have no right
to degrade/abuse another human being no matter how justified I feel on this
list, in my home, or among strangers.

Yes, I could have posted this before, but first things first. Let us stop
abuse no matter what the excuse and give each other clear honest helpful
information with the respect we all deserve. Perhaps by being "giraffes",
we can promote positive change. For those who spank or are wondering if it's
a solution, please consider alternatives and know it's ok for all of us to
make mistakes. It's also ok to rethink out behavior as parents and choose to
try another way. What works for us in our family is to attempt to guide
children before events can occur such as walking near traffic. I'm glad all
are here, even those that spank as together, with gentleness, I pray we can
all find a better way and continue to grow and learn with dignity and
respect for one another we all deserve.

Jeva

> Message: 24
> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 00:21:12 -0700
> From: Tim and Maureen <tmthomas@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Spanking/Gentleness
>
> Maybe I have missed something but I am puzzled by your talking about
violent
>
> posts and I see you as really defensive. It seems to me that maybe you
would
>
> like us to all be polite always but I think that would mean we would
have to be
>
> less than honest with one another. It is a dangerous thing to take an
email to
>
> personally. How could I or anyone truly insult you when we don't
personally know
>
> who you really are.
>
> Maureen

Pamela Sorooshian

On Tuesday, July 22, 2003, at 05:52 AM, pink lantern wrote:

> It's too bad it appears some here are simply intent on finding fault
> no matter what one posts.

It isn't true, Jeva. It really is not.

Start over - read posts with that gentle voice you want to hear IN your
head. Assume that is what the writer intended, because it almost always
is.

Don't judge people based only on what they say when they've (finally)
become exasperated with someone and ignore the hundreds, thousands, of
kind and gentle posts that preceded that.

-pam

Julie Solich

> No, I'm not defensive though I do feel it important to defend people that
appear under attack.>>

People aren't being attacked, the belief that it is not necessary to spank
is being defended.

Julie



>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

jeva

Hi Julie,

Be it attacks on her person or actions, posts filled with sarcasm and
insults aren't the way to promote positive change. One cannot promote
peace with violence. The person under attack, as anyone would, loses
the message but remembers the attack. Hey! Isn't that a bit like
spanking? Yes, I think so.

We can attempt to justify any type of negative behavior, but what
works is patient guidance and understanding.

Prior to topics getting heated, perhaps we can attempt to make a
positive change and work *with* people as we do our children and
guide them to a better and easier way. Share our experience, strength
and hope in all areas with articles, stories, ideas, and love. What's
that? She isn't hearing you? Perhaps not now, but by gentle guidance,
the seed has been planted, and it may happen that the next time
anyone here who chose spanking prior, may decide to make a positive
change. Not because I beat it into her being with sarcasm and self
rightousness, but because I honestly and gently attempted to show
her/him a better way with kindness and understanding.

This list doesn't have to be a forum for lashing out. Just as much as
there is no need to spank, swat, or hit any living creature, there
too is no need to do the same thing verbally.

What has happened in Oom's case is that she's been lashed out at, is
apparently now uncomfortable, has received very little understanding
or kindness, and the end result? She's leaving.

That makes me very sad and it is so not necessary. I hope she
reconsiders as I feel her presence here, like everyone's is very
important. By verbal attacks and lack of understanding, we may have
lost the chance to enact positive change and show people who use
physical force that hey, let us find a better way... I understand
that certain experts say this and that, etc... but perhaps simply try
this or that, it works for myself and others, and spanking, swatting,
or any hitting won't be necessary. The added benefit is that you and
your child will build a better and stronger relationship based on
communication and respect.

Jeva


--- In [email protected], "Julie Solich"
<mjsolich@i...> wrote:
>
> > No, I'm not defensive though I do feel it important to defend
people that
> appear under attack.>>
>
> People aren't being attacked, the belief that it is not necessary
to spank
> is being defended.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line!
~~~~
> >
> > If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list,
please email
> the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@e...), or the list owner,
> Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@h...).
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or
address an
> email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

Pamela Sorooshian

Jeva - all that you suggested was already gently and kindly suggested
early on and repeatedly since then. Can't be said often enough, I
suppose, but I thought you'd want to know that you're not coming up
with something that hasn't been offered already.

You seem to think that Oom came here looking for parenting help and got
attacked for admitting to spanking her 3 yo child. But that isn't what
happened at ALL. She started this thread as a debate, not as a request
for ideas or information or help or encouragement. She brought up
having spanked her kid, 9 years ago, and that onlookers on a public
street applauded when she did it, as an argument that would prove to
the rest of us that spanking is a good thing - the only thing that
would save a kids' life in some circumstances.

Every offer of other ideas has been met with an immediate rebuttal and
reiteration of the necessity of spanking.

EVEN when the conversation wasn't really about her and her one example
from 9 years ago, she kept bringing it back to being personal and
wouldn't let it just evolve, as conversations here normally do, from
one thing (her claim that spanking is good for kids safety) to other
discussion that branched off from that. And THAT is when she got
criticized - it was for her current behavior that was obstructive on
the list - not for her lack of understanding of how to protect a child
without hitting him.


-pam

jeva

Hi Pam,

Yes, I read the archives and am aware of what happened.

As with any being, I cannot justify criticizing. If my child refuses
to accept my guidance on a certain issue am I justified in
criticizing him/her? No more than I am justified in spanking.

Simply because Oom wasn't choosing at this point and time to see a
certain point of view is no justification to be unkind.

How many people have I talked to about this topic and none of our
posts have gotten brutal. It's not necessary for me to verbally abuse
people to get my point across or criticize. I'm simply asking, that
instead of focusing on what we feel Oom may be doing wrong, that no
matter what she as a parent chooses, that she continue to be gently
guided with non-violent paths to not spanking. She's and others like
myself here are much more likely to be motivated with kindness.

As with unschooling in our home, I'm a student as well. I think I've
stated my feelings as well as I possibly can and so I'll move on from
this topic. It still stands that you can't attempt to help someone
stop hitting their child when you are bashing them and being critical
verbally. There's no justification in any type of violence.

Ok, onward forth to more positive gentle learning I hope.

Jeva

--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
> You seem to think that Oom came here looking for parenting help and
got
> attacked for admitting to spanking her 3 yo child. But that isn't
what
> happened at ALL. > Every offer of other ideas has been met with an
immediate rebuttal and
> reiteration of the necessity of spanking.
>
> EVEN when the conversation wasn't really about her and her one
example
> from 9 years ago, she kept bringing it back to being personal and
> wouldn't let it just evolve, as conversations here normally do,
from
> one thing (her claim that spanking is good for kids safety) to
other
> discussion that branched off from that. And THAT is when she got
> criticized - it was for her current behavior that was obstructive
on
> the list - not for her lack of understanding of how to protect a
child
> without hitting him.
>
>
> -pam

Fetteroll

on 7/22/03 12:52 PM, jeva at pinklantern@... wrote:

> If my child refuses
> to accept my guidance on a certain issue am I justified in
> criticizing him/her?

Your child isn't asking for your advice. Your child didn't join your group
that had gathered for the sole purpose of discussing the advice you give and
then publicly say over and over that it's useless. You child didn't refuse
to stay silent on the subject and didn't need to keep repeating that you
were wrong and that she was right.

People who come to the list are asking for advice. They are saying, by
signing on and posting, help me get to unschooling. Oom may have said help
me, but she was *publicly stating* -- not just privately thinking -- that
she had no intention of changing her mind and that she was still right
regardless of what anyone said to her.

If Oom had not said another word about spanking, the subject would have
dropped or gone on without her to a more general discussion of spanking. All
she needed to do was stop saying spanking is a good idea. She could believe
it for the rest of her life.

It was as jarring and as useless and as full of noise (though more damaging)
as someone continually stating on a vegetarian list that meat was good for
her and she needed meat for iron purposes (despite the number of suggestions
on how to get iron otherwise).

> Simply because Oom wasn't choosing at this point and time to see a
> certain point of view is no justification to be unkind.

No one needs to accept anything that's said here. People are welcome to
offer counter evidence if they feel that what someone is saying isn't taking
into account some factor that many people need to consider.

What isn't helpful to anyone is taking a public stand to insist that a point
is right without supporting it. One of the most valuable things about this
list is holding ideas up to examination and sticking to discussing what is
knowable rather than what can be believed.

Our society is chock full of beliefs that seem right but are there because
of fear. People send their children to school because of fear. They hit and
punish their children because of fear. (As well as other reasons for both of
those.) Oom feared for her child's life so she swatted him. Others on this
list might have done the same given the same circumstances and same lack of
knowledge of alternatives. The difference is Oom didn't want to examine the
belief that led her to feel that swatting for safety reasosn was a good
philosophy. She wanted to cling to her belief that she was right. She wanted
to have the right publicly say *here* that it was good advice.

She has a right to cling to her belief. She does't have a right to bring it
here and present it as good advice. People have signed onto the list
trusting they'll get help getting to unschooling. They don't need strong
words confidently supporting fearful practices. They need more examination.

We can help people hold their beliefs up to examination. People who publicly
state that they are not going to examine and will hold onto their beliefs no
matter what are hindering the usefulness of the list.

> I'm simply asking, that
> instead of focusing on what we feel Oom may be doing wrong, that no
> matter what she as a parent chooses, that she continue to be gently
> guided with non-violent paths to not spanking.

You said you read the thread. Oom didn't want to be guided. She wanted her
point of view validated by the group. She wanted a *public* statement that
it was okay for her to hold her beliefs. Why was she asking for that
validation? Why did she need other people to publicly say it was okay to
believe what she wanted to believe? (If she didn't need that validation, she
would have just dropped the subject.)

This list isn't for public validation of unexamined beliefs. We're not here
to support what people want to believe is true. We're here to help them to
get to unschooling.

If someone doesn't want the advice we have to offer, they're plenty welcome
to not take it. They are not welcome to publicly state over and over that
thoughts they refuse to examine are a good and useful thing for parents to
do. There are other lists where those unexamined thoughts will be welcomed.

> It still stands that you can't attempt to help someone
> stop hitting their child when you are bashing them and being critical
> verbally.

People can attempt it. It's possible that it won't succeed. But do you know
for certain that no one who has faced harsh public words has ever changed?
It seems right and true that gentle words will work better for everyone, but
do you know that?

(That's one of those beliefs that people would prefer not to examine because
being gentle just has to be better.)

I'm not advocating harsh treatment. (And in this instance I don't think the
treatment was harsh until people got frustrated.) I don't like harsh for
myself. And it's not the tool I find effective for getting my point across.
But I do know that there are people here who have said they appreciated what
they felt were harsh words at the time. (In fact one or two have said so in
the past few days.) The blunt words helped them examine beliefs they held.

Some people find gentle words useful to give them time to think. Some people
find blunt words force them to see things in ways they didn't want to see.
Both are offered here. It's up to each person to pick and choose what style
works for them.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/22/03 6:53:14 AM, pinklantern@... writes:

<< It's too bad it appears some here are simply intent on finding fault
no matter what one posts. >>

"No matter what one posts"?
You're not reading very well at all.

People find fault with the defense of spanking.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/22/03 7:44:40 AM, pinklantern@... writes:

<< I do feel it important to defend
people that appear under attack. >>

Having not read the beginning of the discussion, I guess you were unaware
that it started with people hoping to better the situation of two boys whose
mother was advocating spanking and saying boys were "retarded."

If you were somewhere and a man was being thrown to the ground and yelled at,
how hard would you work to stop them and pick him up? Would you be
embarrassed or apologetic if you found out later that he was a purse snatcher or had
assaulted a young girl and THAT is why he was apparently under attack?

-=-Would I want my children in later years to read
emails I've posted to a person I don't agree with justifying my abuse and
lack of respect with various excuses because I feel I'm right?-=-

I've never written anything I wouldn't be willing for my kids to read right
now. They're proud when I defend other children's right to a peaceful
existence. I've done it in person and I've done it in writing.

Sandra

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/22/03 8:50:32 AM, pinklantern@... writes:

<< What has happened in Oom's case is that she's been lashed out at, is

apparently now uncomfortable, has received very little understanding

or kindness, and the end result? She's leaving.


<<That makes me very sad and it is so not necessary. >>

You could go with her! You and Oom could make another list which is ALWAYS
sweet and understanding, where you and Oom together can explain... what? Are
you an unschooler? She seems not to be. Do you spank? It seems she does.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 7-22-2003 7:51:30 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> People find fault with the defense of spanking.
>

Oh and the little thing about *kids really can't be trusted to know what they
need...* (paraphrasing) and *nice in an ideal environment, but not in real
life...* (again paraphrasing)
She hit almost every button!
diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
“Relationships are a prerequisite for producing results beyond ourselves.
They expand our imaginations to infinite possibilities that cannot exist in a
life of isolation." --Brian Koslow


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/22/03 10:55:35 AM, pinklantern@... writes:

<< As with any being, I cannot justify criticizing. >>

THAT'S FUNNY!!!!

HYENA LANGUAGE!!

<<Simply because Oom wasn't choosing at this point and time to see a

certain point of view is no justification to be unkind.>>

If you were having a meeting in a public meeting room and someone came in
ranting on and on about how what you were doing was stupid and you should do the
OTHER thing, how kind would you be? Would you sacrifice the time and energy
of the cooperative people who came to the meeting to "be kind" to the disruptor?

<<How many people have I talked to about this topic and none of our

posts have gotten brutal.>>

How about pointless and mind-numbing and NOT ABOUT UNSCHOOLING?

Jeva, do you have children? How long have you unschooled?

Sandra