Tim and Maureen

Not a problem :O)) Glad to be here to help if I can...

I too am working thru "Dad" stuff including (ain't it funny how these things
fit together) yesterday remembering a vicious beating my Dad laid on me and
my brother. Mom confronted him about it and I defended him. I was 5, maybe
6. Eldest son's duty to younger brother/Mom not to make him madder? I can
see how this has affected my parenting and my rebel-self.

Now I feel all flu-y and my whole body is heavy with the thot of it.

Kim, have you had anything similar? Anyone else dealt with this kind of
thing?


Kim wrote: -=-Tim, I was tacky with what I said to you. I apologize. I was
taking
my horrible experience with mom out on you. It should be her that I
spoke up to not you. I apologize.

Tia Leschke

>
> Now I feel all flu-y and my whole body is heavy with the thot of it.
>
> Kim, have you had anything similar? Anyone else dealt with this kind of
> thing?

Not the same kind of situation, but I certainly have expressed emotions with
my body in that kind of physical way before.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

[email protected]

How so? Example? I need to hear more :O)


> Now I feel all flu-y and my whole body is heavy with the thot of it.
>
> Kim, have you had anything similar? Anyone else dealt with this kind of
> thing?

Not the same kind of situation, but I certainly have expressed emotions with
my body in that kind of physical way before.
Tia




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7-17-2003 12:56:37 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
tmthomas@... writes:

> How so? Example? I need to hear more :O)

I just had an incredibly emotional weekend with crazy family members ~ the 9
hour ride home, my lungs were filled with fluid, I knew I was drowning in my
own unshed tears. A good cry along with some resolution to the issue cleared
things up immediately.

Also, any time there is something going on that I don't necessarily want to
deal with consciously, my unconscious sticks the problem right between my
shoulder blades until I deal with it. Funny how our bodies work, huh? :)

diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
“Relationships are a prerequisite for producing results beyond ourselves.
They expand our imaginations to infinite possibilities that cannot exist in a
life of isolation." --Brian Koslow


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>> How so? Example? I need to hear more :O)

>>I just had an incredibly emotional weekend with crazy family members ~ the
9
hour ride home, my lungs were filled with fluid, I knew I was drowning in my
own unshed tears. A good cry along with some resolution to the issue
cleared
things up immediately.>>

My dad died unexpectedly when I was 18. (He had bone cancer, but they had
given him 2 or 3 years. This was a few weeks later.) The next morning I
came down with the worst case of the flu I had ever had. I woke up with
diarrhea and puking. It just lasted one day. Yes, I could have had food
poisoning or something, but I think I just needed to "let loose" and
couldn't yet do it with my feelings.

>>Also, any time there is something going on that I don't necessarily want
to
deal with consciously, my unconscious sticks the problem right between my
shoulder blades until I deal with it. Funny how our bodies work, huh? :) >>

I carry all my stuff in that area as well.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Kelly Lenhart

> How so? Example? I need to hear more :O)

I lived a period of such stress and pain that my body responded by giving me
heartburn so bad that I ended up getting an ultrasound for ulcers. I was in
my early twenties. Before that I had a cast iron stomach. Not a single
problem, could eat anything.

This was a HUGE wake up call that the way I was living was bad for me and I
need to change. Dump some people for my own sanity.

Now I can again pretty much eat anything, but certain meds (Aleive for
example) will bring on a week long attack like that one. So I have done
permanent damage to my system from stress.

Kelly

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/17/2003 3:15:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
HaHaMommy@... writes:

> Also, any time there is something going on that I don't necessarily want to
>
> deal with consciously, my unconscious sticks the problem right between my
> shoulder blades until I deal with it. Funny how our bodies work, huh? :)
>
About 15 years ago my husband and I split up for about 3 months. I was sick
to my stomach for at least 2 weeks, couldn't eat...I lost about 15 pounds that
month.

Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<<I too am working thru "Dad" stuff including (ain't it funny how these things
fit together) yesterday remembering a vicious beating my Dad laid on me and
my brother. Mom confronted him about it and I defended him. I was 5, maybe
6. Eldest son's duty to younger brother/Mom not to make him madder? I can
see how this has affected my parenting and my rebel-self.>>


I'm so sorry to hear that those kind of things happened to you. In my
situation it was my mom who would defend my dad for beating me, my brother, and my
sister. For many years my sister and I told my mom he was doing things to us
that daddy's shouldn't do and she would defend him and punish us. Our mom was
very strict, controlling and always angry. Later they divorced when he went to
jail and till this day claims she new nothing and I just don't believe her. I
cannot remember anything about my childhood except for what dad did to me and
what mom does to me till this day. Doctors have told me that I have suppressed
it because obviously it hurt so much.


<<Now I feel all flu-y and my whole body is heavy with the thot of it. Kim,
have you had anything similar?>>


Yes, every time I thought about it my whole body would just feel miserable.
At times I would be sick to my stomach. Up to about 3 years ago, I would have
panic attacks just thinking about it. I ran away from home when I was a teen
and became an alcoholic. It wasn't till I met my husband who tenderly took me
under his wing that I straighten up and started to deal with all these emotions.
I have not had a drink since and I haven't lived home with mom since I was a
teen. Still till this day I can feel achy at times but I'm really dealing more
with anger that I have never experienced since I came to this list! Something
about this list makes me angry, not at anyone in particular although at times
I take that anger out here. I don't know what it is and I can't put it in
words. I'm determined to break that habit though and one of these days I'll have
courage enough to tell mom where to go.

Kim

[email protected]

<<I lived a period of such stress and pain that my body responded by giving me

heartburn so bad that I ended up getting an ultrasound for ulcers.>>


This was me also and still is. I suffer from ulcers due to stress.

Also stress had caused me to miscarry 2 times, once this past Christmas. The
doctors said because of this and other reasons I will never have any more
children. Stress can do so much to our bodies and so can my mom.


<<This was a HUGE wake up call that the way I was living was bad for me and I

need to change. Dump some people for my own sanity.>>


This is what I have been seeing since I joined this list. I thought by not
yelling, not spanking and being strict I was being the best mom. I then saw that
still the way I was, living sort of like mom that it was bad for me. Hard to
dump mom though.

Kim

Lisa M. Cottrell Bentley

> Something
> about this list makes me angry, not at anyone in particular although at
times
> I take that anger out here. I don't know what it is and I can't put it in
> words.

I don't know about you, but I can say for me that sometimes I get so angry
and have jealousy feelings toward these children that are the children of
people on this list because they are respected so deeply. They are such
treasured children that are getting the best possible childhood imaginable.
I wish that I would have had a childhood like them with parents like these.
It can never happen now because I am now an adult, with children of my own.
The best I can do and have now is to give my own children what I wish that I
would have had and to treat myself with respect and motherly love, without
being overbearing. I can't live my childhood over (and I wouldn't want
to!), but I can hope that I am creating a better life for all of my
decendants and the people that I come in contact with today. My anger is
pain of past hurts and past needs that were never met. It stems from
resentment of all that I have put up with and have "allowed" even after I
knew things were wrong. I felt powerless. Now, I am gaining power. I wish
the same for you. I think we can all find some on this list if we let
ourselves.

-Lisa in AZ

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/17/03 9:11:46 PM, HOMESCHOOL4GOOD@... writes:

<< I don't know what it is and I can't put it in
words. I'm determined to break that habit though and one of these days I'll
have
courage enough to tell mom where to go. >>

Does she have e-mail?
I'll tell her.
<g>

Seriously, though, you don't have to tell her where to go (unless she's STILL
on you telling you what to do and how to be, and even then you can just face
the other way and turn up the music).

If you just detach emotionally and kinda build a fire-break between you and
her, and let it erode away into a chasm that fills in with pretty ferns and
flowers and put your mental windows in the direction where you don't see her all
the time (another form of mentally turning your back), the view will just be
more beautiful.

If you've spent enough anguish and attention on you mom, just tally it up and
say "Enough for a lifetime" and as you decide each other moment's attention
and priority, don't let it be your mom. Let that just be an unfortunate past
problem which informs your present as to how not to be.

Maybe. It's possible to breathe in "now" and breathe out sorrow, and thereby
fill yourself up with more fresh-oxygen "now."

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/17/03 9:25:14 PM, HOMESCHOOL4GOOD@... writes:

<< I thought by not
yelling, not spanking and being strict I was being the best mom. I then saw
that
still the way I was, living sort of like mom that it was bad for me. Hard to
dump mom though. >>

I'm glad you wrote that, because it is SO hard (almost impossible) to try to
help people believe that it truly DOES matter not just what they do (with
parenting and unschooling, I'm thinking specifically) but WHY they do it. That
acting like a concerned parent isn't the same as BEING a concerned parent. That
acting like a child can learn on his own isn't the same as believing it and
acting from that deepseated, part-of-your-fabric belief.

So maybe that's why some people get into the frustrated-to-furious range, on
both sides.

Some people say "Don't criticize that mom--she's doing the best she can and
she came here for support."

Then others will say "But she's not 'doing' so much as she's acting," and
others say action can precede belief.

It's hard, though, to act a way you don't really believe. It's like holding
your breath and then running out of breath and saying "I did that as long as I
could."
"What?"
"Breathed."

But breathing is in and out both, and it's unconscious and subconscious and
happens even when you're asleep.

Unschooling as long as you can won't last very long if it's like one inhale
and quickly trusting-your-kids-and-giving-them-freedom until the exhale is
necessary and that's IT, the next intake of energy might involve shaming and
workbooks and school-threats.

Kinda like breathing, when unschooling becomes unconscious and subconscious
and happens even when you're asleep, there are moments you do it with conscious
awareness and presence (like consciously taking deep breaths) and sometimes
when it's just in the background of other things, but it involves a
life-supporting in and out steadiness.

I have rambled into vagueness and so will stop. If I lost anyone, don't feel
one bit bad. It might not make sense outside my own head.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/17/03 10:55:09 PM, cottrellbentley@... writes:

<< I can't live my childhood over (and I wouldn't want

to!), but I can hope that I am creating a better life for all of my

decendants and the people that I come in contact with today. >>

In the 1980's there was a LOT of group-counselling and self-help-group
busienss about "healing the inner child" and it might be worth doing a google search
for some of that. It can be really, really soothing to "reparent," and
generally involves communicating with your inner child, meaning (as I understood it
when I was going to adult children of alcoholics meetings in 1985/86 and a few
years thereafter) soothe your memories.

I would picture myself and my emotions at ten years old and say to myself
"You were NOT crazy to wish things had been better! It was okay to feel that
way, and it wasn't you who were wrong."

Even though it was twenty years or more later, when I would give my younger
self those soothing little mental massages, it honestly did feel better.

So vaguely thinking about your childhood as a whole can be just disturbing
and overwhelming, but if you think of one moment when you were afraid and
frustrated and "talk to that child" (in your head, or out loud rocking and holding
yourself or your teddy bear if you still have it) it can be healing.

Some people don't need it. Some do. I did.

Sandra

Tim and Maureen

Didn't loose me.. After years of unschooling, it just is. It goes for weeks as normal, like after you learn to drive and you take a trip and realize that an hour has flown by, but somehow you clutched and steered and washed the window, but didn't even notice. "In the Zone!" we used to call it.

My parenting is slipping more into the Zone and this list is helping a lot. I read stuff and realize I can't yell at the kids w/o damage - the damage I went thru. I want it to stop in this generation. That's like when I quit smoking after I got married. No more smokers. I stops here. And no more hitting/yelling.

So there's some more connections to breathing! :O))

My thots

Tim T


<< I thought by not
yelling, not spanking and being strict I was being the best mom. I then saw
that
still the way I was, living sort of like mom that it was bad for me. Hard to
dump mom though. >>

I'm glad you wrote that, because it is SO hard (almost impossible) to try to
help people believe that it truly DOES matter not just what they do (with
parenting and unschooling, I'm thinking specifically) but WHY they do it. That
acting like a concerned parent isn't the same as BEING a concerned parent. That
acting like a child can learn on his own isn't the same as believing it and
acting from that deepseated, part-of-your-fabric belief.

So maybe that's why some people get into the frustrated-to-furious range, on
both sides.

Some people say "Don't criticize that mom--she's doing the best she can and
she came here for support."

Then others will say "But she's not 'doing' so much as she's acting," and
others say action can precede belief.

It's hard, though, to act a way you don't really believe. It's like holding
your breath and then running out of breath and saying "I did that as long as I
could."
"What?"
"Breathed."

But breathing is in and out both, and it's unconscious and subconscious and
happens even when you're asleep.

Unschooling as long as you can won't last very long if it's like one inhale
and quickly trusting-your-kids-and-giving-them-freedom until the exhale is
necessary and that's IT, the next intake of energy might involve shaming and
workbooks and school-threats.

Kinda like breathing, when unschooling becomes unconscious and subconscious
and happens even when you're asleep, there are moments you do it with conscious
awareness and presence (like consciously taking deep breaths) and sometimes
when it's just in the background of other things, but it involves a
life-supporting in and out steadiness.

I have rambled into vagueness and so will stop. If I lost anyone, don't feel
one bit bad. It might not make sense outside my own head.

Sandra


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

A friend of mine used to say, your parents "had" you for 18 years, until
you've had yourself for that long, don't expect great results. Sometimes it
really does take that long to process all the horrible, damaging things.

~Aimee

HOMESCHOOL4GOOD@... writes:

<< Hard to
dump mom though.

Kim
>>

[email protected]

<< Does she have e-mail? I'll tell her. <g> >>


Oh, your just the person I'd need! <g> But she doesn't have e-mail or
Internet. She hates them. She thinks they are a big waste of time.


<<Seriously, though, you don't have to tell her where to go (unless she's
STILL
on you telling you what to do and how to be, and even then you can just face
the other way and turn up the music).>>


Yeah, she is still carrying on but for the most part I'm doing a good job
ignoring it. At times it gets to me and I let the anger consume me. She is
finally talking to all of us again but only because she's on a control trip, trying
to convince us we are going about life all wrong.


<<Let that just be an unfortunate past problem which informs your present as
to how not to be.>>


Wonderfully said Sandra. I've saved this so I can always remind myself that!
Thanks


<<Maybe. It's possible to breathe in "now" and breathe out sorrow, and
thereby
fill yourself up with more fresh-oxygen "now.">>


Kim <breathing>

[email protected]

<<That acting like a concerned parent isn't the same as BEING a concerned
parent.>>

That was always us Sandra. We were not the type of parents that hit, yelled,
etc. We were very strict, we would punish for the stupidest things. I can see
that I was being controlling just like my mom. I might have showed a lot of
love and concern for Christopher but I was not BEING the loving, concerned
parent I said I was.

<<So maybe that's why some people get into the frustrated-to-furious range,
on
both sides.>>

Yes, I know for me it was, especially when I first came here. It was hard to
see that I was not "getting it" because I thought I had it! For me, that made
me angry. I think because I wanted to "get it" so badly. I adore my son and
when he had his accident, I realized how short life is and how much I have not
given him and how much I had taken away. I've always been a caring person but I
guess the way I was raised and continue to be treated has rubbed off on me
some.


<<I have rambled into vagueness and so will stop. If I lost anyone, don't
feel
one bit bad. It might not make sense outside my own head.>>

Everything you said makes perfect sense Sandra. Thanks!

Kim

[email protected]

<<A friend of mine used to say, your parents "had" you for 18 years, until
you've had yourself for that long, don't expect great results. Sometimes it
really does take that long to process all the horrible, damaging things.
~Aimee >>

I agree Aimee, and sometimes even longer. I ran away from home when I was
almost 15. When I was home my mom held 2 jobs while dad stayed home and had his
way with us.
So, my mom sortta "had" me for 15 years and I'm now 35. 20 years is a long
time to process all this. It's especially hard to process when one parent is
still saying and doing damaging things to me and my family. I believe it will
take me much longer because I truly believe that I haven't processed all of it,
just sort of swept it under the rug. This list sure does do wonders, making us
see the truth in all of us.

Kim

[email protected]

In a message dated 18/07/2003 05:05:22 Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


>
> I have rambled into vagueness and so will stop. If I lost anyone, don't
> feel
> one bit bad. It might not make sense outside my own head.
>
>

I am not finding that a bit vague, Sandra, it is as usual for you a great
description and very clear.
Nancy in BC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>

**I have rambled into vagueness and so will stop. If I lost anyone, don't
feel
> one bit bad. It might not make sense outside my own head.**

It makes so much sense. Thank you for this. And for the following:

**If you just detach emotionally and kinda build a fire-break between you
and
her, and let it erode away into a chasm that fills in with pretty ferns and
flowers and put your mental windows in the direction where you don't see her
all
the time (another form of mentally turning your back), the view will just be
more beautiful.**

I'm also at this point with my mother.

Now I am going to put trust onto her to learn something. Just like I am
trusting my children with their learning. Granted she might not get it
since she has so much other 'stuff' ingrained in her. But how many times
can I explain unschooling/attachment parenting to her? There's a point
where she has to grasp it herself.

Maybe she will, maybe she won't.

I know I'm doing the right thing :)

Kelli~



To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-Discussion] Re: Been Remembering WAS Been Thinking


>
> So maybe that's why some people get into the frustrated-to-furious range,
on
> both sides.
>
> Some people say "Don't criticize that mom--she's doing the best she can
and
> she came here for support."
>
> Then others will say "But she's not 'doing' so much as she's acting," and
> others say action can precede belief.
>
> It's hard, though, to act a way you don't really believe. It's like
holding
> your breath and then running out of breath and saying "I did that as long
as I
> could."
> "What?"
> "Breathed."
>
> But breathing is in and out both, and it's unconscious and subconscious
and
> happens even when you're asleep.
>
> Unschooling as long as you can won't last very long if it's like one
inhale
> and quickly trusting-your-kids-and-giving-them-freedom until the exhale is
> necessary and that's IT, the next intake of energy might involve shaming
and
> workbooks and school-threats.
>
> Kinda like breathing, when unschooling becomes unconscious and
subconscious
> and happens even when you're asleep, there are moments you do it with
conscious
> awareness and presence (like consciously taking deep breaths) and
sometimes
> when it's just in the background of other things, but it involves a
> life-supporting in and out steadiness.
>
> I have rambled into vagueness and so will stop. If I lost anyone, don't
feel
> one bit bad. It might not make sense outside my own head.
>
> Sandra
>

Kelli Traaseth

Kim,

I just wanted to tell you that I respect how brave you are being. Also,
for being so honest.

I'm sorry for all the hurt you have had.

**This list sure does do wonders, making us
see the truth in all of us.**

So very true.

Kelli~



----- Original Message -----
From: <HOMESCHOOL4GOOD@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 1:07 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-Discussion] Re: Been Remembering WAS Been Thinking


> <<A friend of mine used to say, your parents "had" you for 18 years, until
> you've had yourself for that long, don't expect great results. Sometimes
it
> really does take that long to process all the horrible, damaging things.
> ~Aimee >>
>
> I agree Aimee, and sometimes even longer. I ran away from home when I was
> almost 15. When I was home my mom held 2 jobs while dad stayed home and
had his
> way with us.
> So, my mom sortta "had" me for 15 years and I'm now 35. 20 years is a long
> time to process all this. It's especially hard to process when one parent
is
> still saying and doing damaging things to me and my family. I believe it
will
> take me much longer because I truly believe that I haven't processed all
of it,
> just sort of swept it under the rug. This list sure does do wonders,
making us
> see the truth in all of us.
>
> Kim
>

[email protected]

HOMESCHOOL4GOOD@... writes:

<< 20 years is a long
time to process all this. It's especially hard to process when one parent is
still saying and doing damaging things to me and my family. I believe it
will
take me much longer because I truly believe that I haven't processed all of
it,
just sort of swept it under the rug. This list sure does do wonders, making
us
see the truth in all of us. >>


Just because someone is family, doesn't mean they have an automatic right
to be part of your life. If someone is in your life and they have a negative
effect on you, or are keeping you from healing from pain and hurts, they
don't have to be in your life anymore, even if they are blood. You have a choice
to live a better life, without all the negativity, and attempts to control and
demean you. If you're constantly healing from recent hurts, you might not
get back to deal with the formative ones, the ones that can change your life.

Personally, I haven't talked to my father since I was 15 years old. I
don't miss him much. There isn't much to miss. The good stuff, I remember, and
the bad stuff is behind me, now.
I know it's hard, but once you step away, it feels so good your forget
to feel guilty about it!! lol And I still keep in touch with that side of the
family, just not him. I still love my grandparents, and aunts and uncles, and
they understand, so I know I am lucky, with that.

One of the things I love about being home with my son, and him being home
with me, (and not constantly dealing with the negativity in school) is that
we are able to consciously choose who we spend time with. I would say to you,
choose wisely. It really does matter.

~Aimee

[email protected]

In a message dated 07/19/2003 2:49:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
AimeeL73@... writes:


> Personally, I haven't talked to my father since I was 15 years old. I
> don't miss him much. There isn't much to miss. The good stuff, I remember,
> and
> the bad stuff is behind me, now.
> I know it's hard, but once you step away, it feels so good your forget
> to feel guilty about it!! lol And I still keep in touch with that side of
> the
> family, just not him. I still love my grandparents, and aunts and uncles,
> and
> they understand, so I know I am lucky, with that.
>
> One of the things I love about being home with my son, and him being
> home
> with me, (and not constantly dealing with the negativity in school) is that
> we are able to consciously choose who we spend time with. I would say to
> you,
> choose wisely. It really does matter.
>
> ~Aimee
>

While all this is true, it is also true that your children may have an
entirely separate relationship with your parents or others who may have hurt you,
and they should be allowed to maintain that relationship as long as they are not
actually at risk (e.g., a grandparent who drinks.) Your kids will not
"understand" if you keep them away from a grandparent they love just because YOU
cannot deal with her hurtful remarks.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

OomYaaqub@... writes:

<< While all this is true, it is also true that your children may have an
entirely separate relationship with your parents or others who may have hurt
you,
and they should be allowed to maintain that relationship as long as they are
not
actually at risk (e.g., a grandparent who drinks.) Your kids will not
"understand" if you keep them away from a grandparent they love just because
YOU
cannot deal with her hurtful remarks. >>

It would put him at risk. He understands why we spend time with people
who love us and would never hurt us. He has plenty of healthy family
relationships to count on, he doesn't need that unhealthy one.

When we protect ourselves, we show our kids it's ok to do the same for
themselves. Even if it's from family.

~Aimee

[email protected]

In a message dated 07/19/2003 5:06:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
AimeeL73@... writes:


>
> It would put him at risk. He understands why we spend time with people
>
> who love us and would never hurt us. He has plenty of healthy family
> relationships to count on, he doesn't need that unhealthy one.
>
> When we protect ourselves, we show our kids it's ok to do the same for
> themselves. Even if it's from family.
>
> ~Aimee

I don't get this. Your parents are old, and no longer have any power to hurt
you emotionally unless YOU give it to them. Why can't you simply ignore
their stupid remarks? They are still part of your child's heritage, and they will
not be around for ever.

I have a lot of the same issues, and I do have the advantage of living far
away from all relatives and in-laws, but we would never dream of preventing
their occasional contact with the children. In fact I have to remind my dh, who
groans every time his parents come, "they don't come to see US! They come
10,000 miles to see the children. They won't be around forever. You can stand
it." (And then he calls his co-workers and quietly arranges to trade shifts so
he's at work when they are here. Good thing hospitals are staffed 24/7, LOL!)

Don't be surprised if your kids retaliate by keeping your grandkids away from
YOU someday. After all, kids learn what they live, right?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
> I don't get this. Your parents are old, and no longer have any power to
hurt
> you emotionally unless YOU give it to them. Why can't you simply ignore
> their stupid remarks? They are still part of your child's heritage, and
they will
> not be around for ever.
>

>
> Don't be surprised if your kids retaliate by keeping your grandkids away
from
> YOU someday. After all, kids learn what they live, right?

I think the people keeping their kids away from grandparents are doing it
because the grandparents are still making hurtful remarks and directing them
at the grandchildren. If I had parents or in-laws like that, I'd have kept
my kids away from them.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Gerard Westenberg

<<Your kids will not
"understand" if you keep them away from a grandparent they love just because
YOU cannot deal with her hurtful remarks. >>

But, I found that I eventually subjected my kids to the same hurtful remarks. For years, I had my mother over, was pleasent in the face of abusive remarks to me and my dh cos I thought - welll, she is older and lonely and she is my mum and I am sending a good message to the boys about family and care. No! I was sending a message about becoming a victim - cos, a few Christmases ago, we paid for my mother to visit from inter state and she and my aunt took the abusive remarks to a new height - attacking and making fun of my older three teenage son. They were now considered fair game, while the younger ones were still little and cute, in my mother's eyes.

When the abuse reached my kids, I stopped the visits. I think it would have been best if I has stopped them earlier...Leonie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 07/19/2003 6:22:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
leschke@... writes:


> I think the people keeping their kids away from grandparents are doing it
> because the grandparents are still making hurtful remarks and directing them
> at the grandchildren. If I had parents or in-laws like that, I'd have kept
> my kids away from them.
> Tia

If they are hurting the grandkids, then that is different, of course. I
would go by how the KIDS felt, though. If a kid doesn't want to see a relative,
that would be a big red flag for me! If the kid wanted to see them, I wouldn't
interfere unless there were a physical safety issue.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

> If they are hurting the grandkids, then that is different, of course. I
> would go by how the KIDS felt, though. If a kid doesn't want to see a
relative,
> that would be a big red flag for me! If the kid wanted to see them, I
wouldn't
> interfere unless there were a physical safety issue.

I wouldn't either. My mother could *not* get along with her mother-in-law
and refused to see her for a number of years, but my sister and I spent time
with our grandparents.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

[email protected]

Thank-you very much Kelli!

Kim

<<Kim, I just wanted to tell you that I respect how brave you are being.
Also,
for being so honest.>>