Germany! but what about...
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/4/03 7:05:45 AM, tmthomas@... writes:
<< -=-What would you as experienced unschoolers tell a bunch of people who
have
never heard of homeschooling and live in a country where homeschooling is
illegal? -=- >>
Been there.
Well, one person, not a bunch of people.
I have a friend my same age to the day who's from Germany and he has
teenagers older than mine. He was intensely interested in my kids and my beliefs, and
when he said sadly that homeschooling was impossible in Germany I said this:
Bummer.
There's nothing else to say.
Germany is Germany. Good luck with your efforts there!
Learning is learning. No government can keep a child from learning for fun.
Even in the presence of school, parents CAN help their children see learning
as an entertaining thing IF the parents can learn to see how children learn
playing video games or digging for worms or building paper airplanes.
Even in Germany, those with an inclination to understand math and think
mathematically learn math in classrooms because at one level they already knew it.
Some of them would have learned it without the classroom. The division of
polynomials, or at least any particularly recommended method, was thought up by
an individual who did NOT learn it in school.
Mathematics is not arithmetical facts. It's a way of seeing patterns in the
world. School breaks down some kids' naturally-forming patterns, tells them
NO, they know nothing, forget what they're thinking, just do what the teacher
tells you.
That is taking a natural dancer and saying "STOP DOING THAT, just step once
to the left in time to the music with everyone else, until next year when we
let you step TWICE."
School can kill natural intellect, or smother it stupid, and as long as a
child's test scores are good, nobody has the decency to be deeply ashamed about
it. The teachers and administrators and test designers and textbook authors
and publishers collect their paychecks and go home. The children go home and
cry.
Unschooling has no paycheck to pick up. Families often pay for the
privilege, in loss of wages, in pressure from neighbors and friends, in estrangement
from families.
People wouldn't do that for nothing. They do it because it's important and
they see the value in and to their children.
Here's something about kids in school by their own choice. Perhaps it could
be adapted, at a philosophical level, to families whose children are in school
but who don't wish to fully cooperate at every level.
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
If you look here and see anything you'd like to use, I could ask my friend
Wolfgang Marquardt to translate it for you. He knows me in person and knows my
voice and that might help him word it in the way I would have said it. I tend
to write as I speak.
http://sandradodd.com/articles
I'll link your site on my international listing. Wonderful! Thanks.
Sandra
<< -=-What would you as experienced unschoolers tell a bunch of people who
have
never heard of homeschooling and live in a country where homeschooling is
illegal? -=- >>
Been there.
Well, one person, not a bunch of people.
I have a friend my same age to the day who's from Germany and he has
teenagers older than mine. He was intensely interested in my kids and my beliefs, and
when he said sadly that homeschooling was impossible in Germany I said this:
Bummer.
There's nothing else to say.
Germany is Germany. Good luck with your efforts there!
Learning is learning. No government can keep a child from learning for fun.
Even in the presence of school, parents CAN help their children see learning
as an entertaining thing IF the parents can learn to see how children learn
playing video games or digging for worms or building paper airplanes.
Even in Germany, those with an inclination to understand math and think
mathematically learn math in classrooms because at one level they already knew it.
Some of them would have learned it without the classroom. The division of
polynomials, or at least any particularly recommended method, was thought up by
an individual who did NOT learn it in school.
Mathematics is not arithmetical facts. It's a way of seeing patterns in the
world. School breaks down some kids' naturally-forming patterns, tells them
NO, they know nothing, forget what they're thinking, just do what the teacher
tells you.
That is taking a natural dancer and saying "STOP DOING THAT, just step once
to the left in time to the music with everyone else, until next year when we
let you step TWICE."
School can kill natural intellect, or smother it stupid, and as long as a
child's test scores are good, nobody has the decency to be deeply ashamed about
it. The teachers and administrators and test designers and textbook authors
and publishers collect their paychecks and go home. The children go home and
cry.
Unschooling has no paycheck to pick up. Families often pay for the
privilege, in loss of wages, in pressure from neighbors and friends, in estrangement
from families.
People wouldn't do that for nothing. They do it because it's important and
they see the value in and to their children.
Here's something about kids in school by their own choice. Perhaps it could
be adapted, at a philosophical level, to families whose children are in school
but who don't wish to fully cooperate at every level.
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
If you look here and see anything you'd like to use, I could ask my friend
Wolfgang Marquardt to translate it for you. He knows me in person and knows my
voice and that might help him word it in the way I would have said it. I tend
to write as I speak.
http://sandradodd.com/articles
I'll link your site on my international listing. Wonderful! Thanks.
Sandra
Sarah
I'm glad I happened to join the list during this conversation, it makes
me feel a bit better about introducing myself. I heard about the list
from someone on another list recently and it sounded very interesting
even though my kids and I actually go to school every day during the
school year, them as students and I as a teacher.
I myself was homeschooled started at the age of 10. For the
first year or possibly two, we (my older brother and I) had assignments,
tons of books to read and papers to write, workbooks, etc. After that,
we were seemingly forgotten about as my younger brothers began learning
to read and such and were "accidentally unschooled" as I like to call
it. I started taking community college classes at 13, and started doing
random rebellious things to mess up my life at about 16. When I was 17
I took the California High School Proficiency Exam to obtain a diploma
although I already had plenty of college units. I eventually had a
baby, finished college at a normal time, with excellent grades, and got
a teaching credential. When I was pregnant and single at 18, teaching
seemed like an excellent career choice since I enjoyed school, loved
learning, and would have plenty of time off with my kid(s). Since then
I have gotten married to a single-dad, and we have had another kid.
Our kids are now 12, 8, and 4, all boys. I have taught full
time for 2 years, jr. high at a private school which my kids attend.
When I got my contract for next year, I tried to talk my kids into
staying home and unschooling. The oldest really wants to continue at
the private school for junior high, the middle one waffled back and
forth with maybe a slight preference for staying home, and the youngest
would probably love staying home, but also usually loves going to school
- especially since he can often come see mommy at her classroom, or see
his brothers during recesses, etc. Unfortunately in this situation it's
all or nothing because without my teacher's 93% tuition discount there
is no way we could afford to send anyone to this school. So I signed
the contract for at least another year. I don't want to be a teacher,
because I don't believe in the educational system. However, I
absolutely love the kids and getting to know them and I enjoy the
subject matter. I also enjoy being out of the house every day (summer
vacation drives me nuts sometimes, having too much time on my hands and
starting massive projects and overturning the house). Whether I teach
or not, someone is going to be force-feeding them algebra and physical
science and I am probably the lesser of many evils, lol.
I am interested in this list because I think unschooling is
the best way to learn although I realize it will never happen in most
families. I believe in non-coercion in general, especially when it
comes to learning. I have read Guerilla Learning and have ordered
Coloring Outside the Lines. I am interested in helping my children to
really learn what they want to learn despite the fact that they will be
in school.
I have much more to say, but need to stop for now.
Hopefully my input will be tolerated on this list, and I hope to learn
much from you all.
Sarah
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 10:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-Discussion] Germany! but what about...
Learning is learning. No government can keep a child from learning for
fun.
Even in the presence of school, parents CAN help their children see
learning
as an entertaining thing IF the parents can learn to see how children
learn
playing video games or digging for worms or building paper airplanes.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
me feel a bit better about introducing myself. I heard about the list
from someone on another list recently and it sounded very interesting
even though my kids and I actually go to school every day during the
school year, them as students and I as a teacher.
I myself was homeschooled started at the age of 10. For the
first year or possibly two, we (my older brother and I) had assignments,
tons of books to read and papers to write, workbooks, etc. After that,
we were seemingly forgotten about as my younger brothers began learning
to read and such and were "accidentally unschooled" as I like to call
it. I started taking community college classes at 13, and started doing
random rebellious things to mess up my life at about 16. When I was 17
I took the California High School Proficiency Exam to obtain a diploma
although I already had plenty of college units. I eventually had a
baby, finished college at a normal time, with excellent grades, and got
a teaching credential. When I was pregnant and single at 18, teaching
seemed like an excellent career choice since I enjoyed school, loved
learning, and would have plenty of time off with my kid(s). Since then
I have gotten married to a single-dad, and we have had another kid.
Our kids are now 12, 8, and 4, all boys. I have taught full
time for 2 years, jr. high at a private school which my kids attend.
When I got my contract for next year, I tried to talk my kids into
staying home and unschooling. The oldest really wants to continue at
the private school for junior high, the middle one waffled back and
forth with maybe a slight preference for staying home, and the youngest
would probably love staying home, but also usually loves going to school
- especially since he can often come see mommy at her classroom, or see
his brothers during recesses, etc. Unfortunately in this situation it's
all or nothing because without my teacher's 93% tuition discount there
is no way we could afford to send anyone to this school. So I signed
the contract for at least another year. I don't want to be a teacher,
because I don't believe in the educational system. However, I
absolutely love the kids and getting to know them and I enjoy the
subject matter. I also enjoy being out of the house every day (summer
vacation drives me nuts sometimes, having too much time on my hands and
starting massive projects and overturning the house). Whether I teach
or not, someone is going to be force-feeding them algebra and physical
science and I am probably the lesser of many evils, lol.
I am interested in this list because I think unschooling is
the best way to learn although I realize it will never happen in most
families. I believe in non-coercion in general, especially when it
comes to learning. I have read Guerilla Learning and have ordered
Coloring Outside the Lines. I am interested in helping my children to
really learn what they want to learn despite the fact that they will be
in school.
I have much more to say, but need to stop for now.
Hopefully my input will be tolerated on this list, and I hope to learn
much from you all.
Sarah
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 10:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-Discussion] Germany! but what about...
Learning is learning. No government can keep a child from learning for
fun.
Even in the presence of school, parents CAN help their children see
learning
as an entertaining thing IF the parents can learn to see how children
learn
playing video games or digging for worms or building paper airplanes.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**Our kids are now 12, 8, and 4, all boys. I have taught full
time for 2 years, jr. high at a private school which my kids attend.
When I got my contract for next year, I tried to talk my kids into
staying home and unschooling.**
Hi, Sarah --
I can relate to your position a little bit from both sides. My husband
teaches 9th grade English and I am sometimes guilty of trying to help
him find ways to lure the kids into learning against their will.
(Mostly what I do is look for interesting short stories and articles for
the kids to read, but still it rubs a bit against the unschooling grain.)
I belong to a very tiny local support group where we have only 3 or 4
families at the average park day, and one of the moms is putting her son
back in school and going back to teaching. We are going to miss her a lot!
Betsy
time for 2 years, jr. high at a private school which my kids attend.
When I got my contract for next year, I tried to talk my kids into
staying home and unschooling.**
Hi, Sarah --
I can relate to your position a little bit from both sides. My husband
teaches 9th grade English and I am sometimes guilty of trying to help
him find ways to lure the kids into learning against their will.
(Mostly what I do is look for interesting short stories and articles for
the kids to read, but still it rubs a bit against the unschooling grain.)
I belong to a very tiny local support group where we have only 3 or 4
families at the average park day, and one of the moms is putting her son
back in school and going back to teaching. We are going to miss her a lot!
Betsy
Betsy
**If the kids have to be there, making what they do surprising and
intriguing
and interesting is what EVERY teacher should be doing. Those are the
only
things they will remember, the things that shocked them or amused them.
I don't think you should feel bad about that.**
OK! I was just reading a short Sandra Cisneros piece, Snow, set during
the Cuban missile crisis and thinking about "duck and cover drills".
Potentially he could tell the 9th graders about those, and offer to let
them see if they can squish themselves under their desks (in case of
nuclear war). (I was only a 2nd grader when we did these drills and
never tried to fit at an older age.) Then he could promise that he'll
never knowingly teach them anything that dumb.
Betsy
intriguing
and interesting is what EVERY teacher should be doing. Those are the
only
things they will remember, the things that shocked them or amused them.
I don't think you should feel bad about that.**
OK! I was just reading a short Sandra Cisneros piece, Snow, set during
the Cuban missile crisis and thinking about "duck and cover drills".
Potentially he could tell the 9th graders about those, and offer to let
them see if they can squish themselves under their desks (in case of
nuclear war). (I was only a 2nd grader when we did these drills and
never tried to fit at an older age.) Then he could promise that he'll
never knowingly teach them anything that dumb.
Betsy
Sarah
I can see where you're coming from. But, if your dh wasn't there
teaching them, they would still be in school with another teacher.
There's no helping that situation except for him to do the best he can
at what his profession requires of him. You are doing what you feel is
best for your own children. That doesn't mean other peoples' children
don't deserve a decent teacher in the situation they are forced into!
And I would love to have a helpful spouse offering creative ideas - what
a resource!
Sarah
-----Original Message-----
From: Betsy [mailto:ecsamhill@...]
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 1:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Long Intro. (was RE: [Unschooling-Discussion] Germany! but
what about...)
I can relate to your position a little bit from both sides. My husband
teaches 9th grade English and I am sometimes guilty of trying to help
him find ways to lure the kids into learning against their will.
(Mostly what I do is look for interesting short stories and articles for
the kids to read, but still it rubs a bit against the unschooling
grain.)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
teaching them, they would still be in school with another teacher.
There's no helping that situation except for him to do the best he can
at what his profession requires of him. You are doing what you feel is
best for your own children. That doesn't mean other peoples' children
don't deserve a decent teacher in the situation they are forced into!
And I would love to have a helpful spouse offering creative ideas - what
a resource!
Sarah
-----Original Message-----
From: Betsy [mailto:ecsamhill@...]
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 1:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Long Intro. (was RE: [Unschooling-Discussion] Germany! but
what about...)
I can relate to your position a little bit from both sides. My husband
teaches 9th grade English and I am sometimes guilty of trying to help
him find ways to lure the kids into learning against their will.
(Mostly what I do is look for interesting short stories and articles for
the kids to read, but still it rubs a bit against the unschooling
grain.)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kris
<<Unfortunately in this situation it's
all or nothing because without my teacher's 93% tuition discount there
is no way we could afford to send anyone to this school. So I signed
the contract for at least another year. I don't want to be a teacher,
because I don't believe in the educational system. However, I
absolutely love the kids and getting to know them and I enjoy the
subject matter. >>
What lucky kids! If ya gotta be in school, how much better can it be than
having a teacher who understands unschooling?
Kris
all or nothing because without my teacher's 93% tuition discount there
is no way we could afford to send anyone to this school. So I signed
the contract for at least another year. I don't want to be a teacher,
because I don't believe in the educational system. However, I
absolutely love the kids and getting to know them and I enjoy the
subject matter. >>
What lucky kids! If ya gotta be in school, how much better can it be than
having a teacher who understands unschooling?
Kris
Betsy
**And I would love to have a helpful spouse offering creative ideas - what
a resource!**
Thanks, Sarah. My shameful unschooling secret is that I have some kind
of deepseated urge to design unit studies. My died-in-the-wool
unschooling kid looks at my bookish idea and lets me know (like Dorothy
Parker's cartoon) "I think it's spinach and I say to hell with it". So
I vent the unit study ideas on my teacher dh who filters them and uses a
small fraction in his classroom. This spares my ds from being the
target of my unfettered bibliomania.
Betsy
a resource!**
Thanks, Sarah. My shameful unschooling secret is that I have some kind
of deepseated urge to design unit studies. My died-in-the-wool
unschooling kid looks at my bookish idea and lets me know (like Dorothy
Parker's cartoon) "I think it's spinach and I say to hell with it". So
I vent the unit study ideas on my teacher dh who filters them and uses a
small fraction in his classroom. This spares my ds from being the
target of my unfettered bibliomania.
Betsy