crazymoma67

I am looking for a little broader acceptance of unschooling. Not in
the "we unschool except for math, etc" sense, but more of a
seperation from strictly AP methods only being accepted
as "unschooling". To me, this list does not want to accept that
some folks DO unschool, they do trust thier children to learn, they
do not use curriculum, but they still have some traditional parenting
ideals too. All of the no chores, bedtimes, "rules", stuff. Some
parents are not comfortable with not restricting TV, video games,
foods, etc. Personally, I have very VERY few restrictions on what
my kids watch, eat and play. But, I have a tolerance level. If I
need to go run an errand and the kid wants to sit home and watch TV
or play a game.. I have to insist they turn the TV off and get in the
car. If I buy chocolate chips to make a special birthday cake, I
have to "not" let someone eat it all before I make the cake. If my
kids will not quiet down and my husband desperately needs to go to
sleep, I "make" them go to bed.. ( turn off the light and quiet
down) If they continue to fight over a video game, I turn it off
and direct them to find something else to play.

There is a HUGE difference in being an adult with years of
knowlege, experience, and impulse control whom lovingly and carefully
guides thier children toward making good decisions and some
authoritarian, abusive, controlling parent who lives by arbitrary
rules and restrictions. Some folks on this group want to make it
seem like it is an "us" vs "them" standpoint. Either you unschool
by AP, no rules, no bedtimes, no chores, no restrictions.. OR you are
NOT an unschooler. I do not believe that. That to me is the same
type of discrimination as "Christians" saying you are not a
Christian because you ______________( don't go to my church, wear
pants, watch rated R movies, like to read Harry Potter, have gay
friends, etc etc)

Folks on this group openly admit they have an arbitrary set
of "guidelines" that define unschooling and unless you adhere to them
100%, you do not belong here.

How about a group that is a little more acceptance of diversity and
the sheer fact that all families are uniquely comprised of
individuals for whom XYZ does not always work.?

How about an unschooling group that does not discriminate based on
rank?

I really enjoy just talking and reading about what is going on in
each others unschooling lives.. What works for you.. what was fun..
what was learned ( incidentally, not intentionally)???

Maybe a kinder gentler unschooling list.

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/25/2003 1:44:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
crazymoma67@... writes:
> All of the no chores, bedtimes, "rules", stuff. Some
> parents are not comfortable with not restricting TV, video games,
> foods, etc. Personally, I have very VERY few restrictions on what
> my kids watch, eat and play. But, I have a tolerance level. If I
> need to go run an errand and the kid wants to sit home and watch TV
> or play a game.. I have to insist they turn the TV off and get in the
> car. If I buy chocolate chips to make a special birthday cake, I
> have to "not" let someone eat it all before I make the cake. If my
> kids will not quiet down and my husband desperately needs to go to
> sleep, I "make" them go to bed.. ( turn off the light and quiet
> down) If they continue to fight over a video game, I turn it off
> and direct them to find something else to play.

I fall into that category---no rules, no restrictions, no chores, etc.

But what you just described is simply kindness to and consideration of and
respect of ONE ANOTHER. THAT's what this list DOES promote. It's NOT about
chidren gone wild. It's about respect for each other. Children can't BE respectful
unless they are treated respectfully. That doesn't mean letting them run me
over. That would be disrespectful of ME. My boys would no sooner think to do
that than jump off a cliff (well, Cameorn might jump off the cliff first!<G>).

I think some folks come here, read a little while, and then think that,
because we have no rules, the children rule the roost. It's not like that. It's a
case of mutual respect and trust. The "education" part of unschooling runs into
the "manners" part of life. And since "Living is learning is unschooling",
it's all the same.

I can't see having another list that would say: "Come here to talk about
unschooling and show no respect your children." That would be the antithesis of
unschooling. I doubt Helen would even go for that.

~Kelly, NOT speaking for Helen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/25/2003 1:44:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
crazymoma67@... writes:

> There is a HUGE difference in being an adult with years of
> knowlege, experience, and impulse control whom lovingly and carefully
> guides thier children toward making good decisions and some
> authoritarian, abusive, controlling parent who lives by arbitrary
> rules and restrictions.

And there's a HUGE difference between being a walked all over, overly
permissive, disrespected fool with no knowledge of human behavior and a thoughtful,
repectful, helpful, mindful parent who shares knowlege, experience, and impulse
control and who lovingly and carefully guides her children toward making good
decisions.

You're assuming we are the former. Surprise!

~Kelly




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

crazymoma67

>
> And there's a HUGE difference between being a walked all over,
overly
> permissive, disrespected fool with no knowledge of human behavior
and a thoughtful,
> repectful, helpful, mindful parent who shares knowlege, experience,
and impulse
> control and who lovingly and carefully guides her children toward
making good
> decisions.
>
> You're assuming we are the former. Surprise!
>
No assumptions here at all. I've been here for almost a year. I
KNOW that the folks on this group do not let thier kids walk all over
them. I KNOW thier homes have "order" and stablity. But, I only
know that because I have read what the ranks of this group writes
about thier daily lives. . It is so subtle, so non pervasive, but
it's there. I think the majority of this group attack new comers
and brow beat them into having the exact perceptions of unschoolers
that you are so adamantly proclaiming you are NOT. The veteran
unschoolers here will fly in hard and fast on a mother who says, "I
limit my childrens TV viewing". They make it SEEM like thier kids
rule the roost and they cowtow to thier every whim. It's all in the
presentation, the approach, the finesse ( or lack thereof) of the
communication. It is automatically set up to be a conflict, laced
with confusion and berating attitudes.

Joyce asked what we would like to see in other unschooling groups. I
simply wrote what I would like to see, and NOT see in a new group.
It was an answer to a question. IF a new group like this was formed,
would it somehow "hinder" this group? Helen has seen that there is
a need for alternatives to this list. Why does that bug you?

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/25/03 1:39:07 PM, crazymoma67@... writes:

<< The veteran

unschoolers here will fly in hard and fast on a mother who says, "I

limit my childrens TV viewing". They make it SEEM like thier kids

rule the roost and they cowtow to thier every whim. >>

I don't see how you can have read here for a year and still cling to the
"rule the roost" and "cowtowing" stereotypes. (Unless you like being cowtowed to
and ruling your roost, maybe.)

If someone has never EVER considered there might be an advantage to giving
kids more freedom over their lives, how is it "flying in hard and fast" to share
that there are options? Where else will they find out if everyone says
"Cool" to whatever someone writes no matter how much harder it might make their
path to natural learning? Grounding kids and spanking them, for instance,
doesn't make them love natural learning (nor make them love their parents more,
except in an increasingly unhealthy way). So if someone comes here and says
"I'm unschooling, but my kids follow all my rules or else I spank them," someone
will probably point out to them the advantages of considering a change.

WHY?

Why would people here do that?

Do you think they're being mean? Do you think we make $15 everytime someone
stops spanking or grounding or turning shows off halfway through?

No. It's done because some people (not most, but several) remember what it
felt like to be treated that way, and they're hoping to make yet another
child's life stronger and more peaceful and more loving by helping their parents
see how little effort it takes to go from controlling to accepting and guiding.

<< I think the majority of this group attack new comers

and brow beat them >>

I think you're defending parents who attack and browbeat children.

The whole set of phrases you've used are not things unschoolers use to talk
about parenting.

brow beat
attack
fly fast and hard
rule the roost
cowtow

<< It is automatically set up to be a conflict, laced

with confusion and berating attitudes.>>

I see not a speck of truth here.

<<IF a new group like this was formed,

would it somehow "hinder" this group? Helen has seen that there is

a need for alternatives to this list. >>

There are lots of unschooling lists. There are several lists at the HEM
site, and one is another unschooling list. It's nice sometimes, and then goes a
week without a single post.

Sandra

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], "crazymoma67"
<crazymoma67@y...> wrote:
> I am looking for a little broader acceptance of unschooling.
Not in
> the "we unschool except for math, etc" sense, but more of a
> seperation from strictly AP methods only being accepted
> as "unschooling".

I thought that's what I wanted when I first came to this list too. But
honestly, I had unschooled off and on unsuccessfully for years
and couldn't figure out why my family wasn't having the kind of
success I read about. I have never been an authoritarian,
controlling parent or person. But I definitely fell into the category
of seeing myself as having the right ideas about how to live, eat,
sleep and TV view and felt it was my responsiblity to make sure
my kids learned my views.

To me, this list does not want to accept that
> some folks DO unschool, they do trust thier children to learn,
they
> do not use curriculum, but they still have some traditional
parenting
> ideals too.

Not using curriculum isn't the definition of unschooling (though I
thought it was for years.)

When we'd unschool, we'd begin well (no curricula, lots of
interest led activities and days), but my position of superior
experience, intelligence and wisdom gleaned through the years
would slowly undermine my trust that they would indeed learn
what they needed. This happened the most when they'd look like
they weren't doing anything I valued. (lots of time on the
skateboard, or lying around on the floor, or listening to music all
day). So I'd add math back in, and then a little reading and then
some writing. Pretty soon I was "just adding those things they
need and can't see that they need" and Poof! Unschooling was
gone!

If I
> need to go run an errand and the kid wants to sit home and
watch TV
> or play a game.. I have to insist they turn the TV off and get in
the
> car. If I buy chocolate chips to make a special birthday cake, I
> have to "not" let someone eat it all before I make the cake.

I don't see why. Couldn't you warn your children that you need to
run an errand and find out what time would work for all of you?
You're assuming that kids mean to undermine your goals. Can't
you mark a bag of choclate chips and remind them that the cake
needs them so to leave them be? My kids would respond to that.

This is my point. You're starting from a different idea of who
children are and it will influence your unschooling at some point.
What will you do if your kids just aren't interested in prparing for
college and you see ahead and believe that it's vital to their
futures? Will you then set a limit and say "You must take these
courses?"

This list showed me that for my unschooling life to take off, I had
to start from a completely different set of assumptions. The
questions you're asking no longer sound to me like they come
from the worldview of unschooling. I predict that while you are a
kind and conscientious mother, and while you believe in interest
led learning, the fact that you see yourself in the position of
having more meaningful experience and the power to make
decisions for your kids will translate into doubts and anxiety as
you watch them unschool, especially if unschooling for your kids
means studying cartoons by watching cartoon network all day
every day.

Would that be okay with you? Or would you want to "guide them"
into some other activity that is more "unschooling" as you
envision it?

This was the crux of it for me. If I truly believe that children are
rational, capable, complete human beings (who simply lack
experience and resources), then I can allow them room for all
kinds of things including how they learn as well as what they eat,
how they spend their time, what they view.

If I see myself as the dispenser of wisdom and schedules, I will
override my children when I find them in disagreement with my
value system.

So are you unschooling by the definition here? Does it matter? It
sounds like what matters to you is that you are a part of a context
that reassures you that you are unschooling.

What's your definition of unschooling?

Julie B

Andrea

At 05:42 PM 6/25/03 +0000, crazymoma67@... wrote:
>Maybe a kinder gentler unschooling list.

Oh no, please no. Kind and gentle is what allowed an extended breastfeeding
list I was on to dissolve into "It's okay that you weaned your three month
old to go on that free vacation, we understand." Blech

Or maybe it's a good idea to have gradual lists to ease people gently into
this one :-) It seems to me that most of the people who receive lots of
negative attention when they first post ignore the introduction message.

Donna Andrea

Mary

From: "Julie Bogart" <julie@...>

<<This was the crux of it for me. If I truly believe that children are
rational, capable, complete human beings (who simply lack
experience and resources), then I can allow them room for all
kinds of things including how they learn as well as what they eat,
how they spend their time, what they view.>> (snipped)


Being that we aren't swamped with emails today I just wanted to say that I
really enjoyed your post Julie B. Not so much as a rebuttal to anything but
just what it had to say and how you said it.

Mary B

crazymoma67

>
> So are you unschooling by the definition here? Does it matter? It
> sounds like what matters to you is that you are a part of a context
> that reassures you that you are unschooling.
>
> What's your definition of unschooling?
>
> Julie B

I started to answer every point you made in your post. But, I didnt
write what I would like to see in an unschooling list just to have to
defend what I would like to see. I will copy and paste several
different defintions of unschooling, including the one on this groups
home page.

My post brought about the exact kinds of accusations and
misunderstandings that get so tiresome on this list. Not specifically
from you, but from several members. I do not brow beat my
children. I do not spank them. I do not control them. I do not
restrict them. But, if I say (ok, 'admit") on this group that
sometimes I do take an authoritarian role, that gets misconstrued.

Let me just ask this, plain and simple. Did Helen want to know what
folks want from an unschooling list or not? Sandra implied that I
should start my own list.. well,, DUHH that is what I was referring
to .. A DIFFERENT LIST. Not changing this one. Obviously, there
has been some consideration from Helen that this list does not meet
all the needs of the members, otherwise, why ask for suggestions for
another list?? I do not think she intended the suggestions for
debate over THIS list.

Definitions of unschooling

Oh, it's time for me to go to a cook-out with my family. I'll give
you my definition of unschooling later

Tia Leschke

> No assumptions here at all. I've been here for almost a year. I
> KNOW that the folks on this group do not let thier kids walk all over
> them. I KNOW thier homes have "order" and stablity. But, I only
> know that because I have read what the ranks of this group writes
> about thier daily lives. . It is so subtle, so non pervasive, but
> it's there. I think the majority of this group attack new comers
> and brow beat them into having the exact perceptions of unschoolers
> that you are so adamantly proclaiming you are NOT. The veteran
> unschoolers here will fly in hard and fast on a mother who says, "I
> limit my childrens TV viewing". They make it SEEM like thier kids
> rule the roost and they cowtow to thier every whim. It's all in the
> presentation, the approach, the finesse ( or lack thereof) of the
> communication. It is automatically set up to be a conflict, laced
> with confusion and berating attitudes.

Wow! I think we must be reading parallel but very different lists.
Attacking newcomers? I was not attacked when I first started posting, and
I've seen dozens of other people join and start posting without being
attacked. Somebody just yesterday (I think) posted about limiting TV. I
saw some "uh ohs" and a few "you might want to think about that" kinds of
posts. That's all. Now if that person comes back and vigorously defends
her TV position, I expect there will be some people vigorously disagreeing.
Anybody who has read this list for a while would know not to take a position
that they can't back up. It's the new people who don't bother to read for a
while who will defend their position and get all upset when someone
disagrees. And the last thing I would have thought about the more prolific
posters here is that their kids rule the roost. What I've learned from
these people is how to respond to kids' needs in a way that gets everyone's
needs met. I only wish I had learned that much earlier in my parenting
career.
>
> Joyce asked what we would like to see in other unschooling groups. I
> simply wrote what I would like to see, and NOT see in a new group.
> It was an answer to a question. IF a new group like this was formed,
> would it somehow "hinder" this group? Helen has seen that there is
> a need for alternatives to this list. Why does that bug you?

It doesn't bug me. There are lots of other unschooling lists. I just
checked Yahoo, though, and there's only one that even comes close to this
one in membership. I wonder why that is, if this one is such a difficult
place for some people to hang out. Could it be that those softer and
gentler lists just don't turn very many people's cranks?
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Tia Leschke

Personally, I have very VERY few restrictions on what
> my kids watch, eat and play. But, I have a tolerance level. If I
> need to go run an errand and the kid wants to sit home and watch TV
> or play a game.. I have to insist they turn the TV off and get in the
> car.

This example has nothing to do with TV restrictions and everything to do
with the respect that family members show each other.

If I buy chocolate chips to make a special birthday cake, I
> have to "not" let someone eat it all before I make the cake.

This has nothing to do with letting kids choose the foods they eat, and
everything to do with the respect that family members show each other.

If my
> kids will not quiet down and my husband desperately needs to go to
> sleep, I "make" them go to bed.. ( turn off the light and quiet
> down)

This has little to do with children choosing when to sleep and everything to
do with the respect that family members show each other. Would you not be
quiet if one of your children desperately needed to sleep for some reason?

If they continue to fight over a video game, I turn it off
> and direct them to find something else to play.

This has nothing to do with video game restrictions and everything to do
with how we help our kids resolve conflicts. (And turning it off doesn't
help them learn that.)
>
Some folks on this group want to make it
> seem like it is an "us" vs "them" standpoint.

Interesting. I see an "us" vs "them" standpoint, but it usually comes from
the people who are complaining rather than "the regulars" (for want of a
better term) setting themselves up as "us".

Either you unschool
> by AP, no rules, no bedtimes, no chores, no restrictions.. OR you are
> NOT an unschooler.

You've been reading here for a year and you haven't seen many, many posts
saying that you don't have to be an AP parent with no rules, etc, but that
you might want to consider it because it would make unschooling work better
for your family? I've seen many posts like that. What I haven't seen is
anyone saying that you aren't an unschooler if you have any rules.

>
> Folks on this group openly admit they have an arbitrary set
> of "guidelines" that define unschooling and unless you adhere to them
> 100%, you do not belong here.

Again, I've seen people say that someone who unschools except for math or
whatever might be happier somewhere else, but I haven't seen anyone say that
that person doesn't belong here. Can you see the difference? If what
people are saying here upsets you (generic you) and that distress isn't
causing you to rethink some of your beliefs (which could be valuable) why on
earth stay?
>
> How about a group that is a little more acceptance of diversity and
> the sheer fact that all families are uniquely comprised of
> individuals for whom XYZ does not always work.?

How about a La Leche League group that supports mothers who use bottles
because breastfeeding doesn't work for them?
>
> How about an unschooling group that does not discriminate based on
> rank?

I'm sure you can find a list someplace where no one will ever be challenged
when they say something that isn't true or isn't logical. That isn't a list
I'd want to spend time on.
>
> I really enjoy just talking and reading about what is going on in
> each others unschooling lives.. What works for you.. what was fun..
> what was learned ( incidentally, not intentionally)???

Gee, I thought that's what we do here. At least I see those kinds of posts
lots.
>
> Maybe a kinder gentler unschooling list.

Lots of those out there.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/25/2003 6:05:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
crazymoma67@... writes:


> Let me just ask this, plain and simple. Did Helen want to know what
> folks want from an unschooling list or not? Sandra implied that I
> should start my own list.. well,, DUHH that is what I was referring
> to .. A DIFFERENT LIST. Not changing this one. Obviously, there
> has been some consideration from Helen that this list does not meet
> all the needs of the members, otherwise, why ask for suggestions for
> another list?? I do not think she intended the suggestions for
> debate over THIS list.
>

Helen? What exactly ARE you looking for?

I figured you were considering maybe a christian unschoolers list. Or a list
for unschoolers that are into cooking or gardening or auto-repair. Or a list
for teens or about teens or tweens or toddlers or whatever. A debate list for
those that get fired up. A list for writers or conference-givers or---oh yeah!
You HAVE those! <G>

I didn't think you were considering a watered-down version of this one. Were
you???

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kimberly

crazymoma67@y... writes:

<<Sandra implied that I should start my own list.. well,, DUHH that
is
what I was referring to .. A DIFFERENT LIST.>>

Wow! I'm surprised that no one has told you that the way you worded
this was tacky! <g>

Kim :-) <------smile

kayb85

I agree. Kind and gentle isn't what I needed to become a better
unschooling parent. I know that when I come here with a tough
situation I will get helpful suggestions. However, I also know that
when I need it (and I have! lol) I'll also get, "You're doing this
and this and this wrong and if you want to become a better parent
you'd better change that now". It doesn't feel warm and fuzzy to be
confronted with the idea that you're not the perfect parent. But I
consider it to be much kinder for someone to confront me with what
I'm doing imperfectly than to let me stay under the illusion that I'm
a perfect parent with no need for improvement.

Sheila

> Oh no, please no. Kind and gentle is what allowed an extended
breastfeeding
> list I was on to dissolve into "It's okay that you weaned your
three month
> old to go on that free vacation, we understand." Blech

Fetteroll

on 6/25/03 1:42 PM, crazymoma67 at crazymoma67@... wrote:

> Personally, I have very VERY few restrictions on what
> my kids watch, eat and play. But, I have a tolerance level. If I
> need to go run an errand and the kid wants to sit home and watch TV
> or play a game.. I have to insist they turn the TV off and get in the
> car.

If you were unschooling except for math, would you be upset that we never
discussed how unschoolers do traditional math?

So why if you're unschooling except for parenting, are you upset that we
never discuss how to apply traditional parenting methods?

> To me, this list does not want to accept that
> some folks DO unschool, they do trust thier children to learn, they
> do not use curriculum, but they still have some traditional parenting
> ideals too.

It has been stated many times that some unschoolers do use traditional
parenting methods.

People can take unschooling as far as they want to. They can confine it to
"academics". They can extend it into parenting. They can even unschool
"except for math".

But in terms of advice and ideas, the list needs to stick to unschooling
advice and ideas. It's what the list is called after all! ;-) Traditional
parenting isn't unschooling -- even if unschooling parents use it. Mindful
parenting is extending the ideas of unschooling into family life so mindful
parenting is an appropriate topic.

The need to stick to unschooling advice and ideas makes it *seem* like
people are saying to be an unschooler means you need to be an attachment
parent. But that isn't it. What is "it" is that if you're asking for advice
on an unschooling list, you're going to get unschooling advice. Attachment
parenting is unschooling philosophy extended to parenting. Traditional
parenting is not unschooling philosophy.

The difference -- and this could cause one of those "rank" discussions again
if someone doesn't try to understand my point -- is that the list sticks to
unschooling advice not advice from unschoolers.

> Some
> parents are not comfortable with not restricting TV, video games,
> foods, etc.

And if to them the benefits of not restricting don't seem to outweigh the
difficulty of adopting a new parenting philsophy then they shouldn't.

> but they still have some traditional parenting ideals too.

I suspect our parenting *ideals* are much the same: decent human beings. But
our ideas (and methods) for acheiving those ideals are very different.

> But, I have a tolerance level. If I
> need to go run an errand and the kid wants to sit home and watch TV
> or play a game.. I have to insist they turn the TV off and get in the
> car.

You don't *have to* insist. You *choose* to insist.

What we discuss here are the alternatives so parents *don't* feel they have
to insist, so they know they have alternatives. Then they can *choose* what
suits them.

I'm sure we don't need to tell people that one of their options is making
their kids do something. (And that wouldn't be unschooling philosophy
anyway.) That message is pervasive in society! But people do need to know
there are other options and how those options work in real families.

> Folks on this group openly admit they have an arbitrary set
> of "guidelines" that define unschooling and unless you adhere to them
> 100%, you do not belong here.

No arbitrary set of guidelines. We discuss here the philosophy of
unschooling, why it works, how it looks in real families.

How it looks in each family is different, based on each families needs. It's
not arbitrary. But the philosophy is the same.

Joyce

Betsy

**If you were unschooling except for math, would you be upset that we never
discussed how unschoolers do traditional math?

So why if you're unschooling except for parenting, are you upset that we
never discuss how to apply traditional parenting methods?
**

Hi, Joyce --

I think it's possible that if a list was created for Unschooling Without
TV, there would be some interest in it. (But not me.)

Betsy

Fetteroll

on 6/26/03 11:51 AM, Betsy at ecsamhill@... wrote:

> I think it's possible that if a list was created for Unschooling Without
> TV, there would be some interest in it. (But not me.)

And before people start nodding, I'll ask this:

Is discussing how to restrict children's access to something they want part
of the unschooling philosophy?

That doesn't mean an unschooling family can't be organic vegans without TV
who wear only purple cowboy boots. But those are other philosophies pasted
on top of unschooling. Those are, in fact, limiting the unschooling
philosophy.

Unschoolers can limit unschooling however they want. But asking the whole
philosophy for guidance in limiting the philosophy in ways that are counter
to the philosophy is to water the philosophy down.

Undoubtedly that's getting read as "this is unschooling" and "that isn't
unschooling" and people are thinking "Who are you to say who is an
unschooler and who isn't and what unschoolers can and can't do?"

But I'm not saying that.

I'm talking about the *philosophy*, the *ideal*, the *idea*, the *concept*
of unschooling. The *thing* people look to to help them decide what course
is right for them.

A life philosophy might be "love one another as we love ourselves". Against
that we will weigh the decisions we make in life. Those who adhere to the
philosophy strictly will try to find a way to "love" a child abuser (eg,
love the innocent child that was damaged to create the abuser without
condoning their current actions or something like that). Those who don't
adhere strictly to the philosophy can still use it as a guiding principle
and adapt it when they feel necessary.

But, if the philosophy is altered in order to allow something that's counter
to it's central issue, then discussion of it is only useful to those who
water it down the same way and useless to those who want the strict version.

Love everyone except those who are trying to hurt us is not the same
philosophy at all. It's fundamentally changed in profound ways. The
philosophy's founders *knew* it was hard to love your enemies. They didn't
include "except for enemies" for a reason.

Unschooling is about a child having confidence to learn what they need to
learn from whatever interests them. It doesn't mean "whatever interests
them, except for things mom doesn't like." Moms don't like lots of things.
Why couldn't it be Unschooling without going into cities? Or Unschooling
without plastic? Or Unschooling without unnatural foods?

It *is* hard to unschool with TV or all terrain vehicles or pop culture if
those are counter to a parent's personal philosophy. But we shouldn't warp
the philosophy of unschooling so parents can feel comfortable practicing two
philosophies that conflict. Those conflicts are their responsibility to work
out, not the responsibility of the two (or three or more) philosophies.

Joyce