OT Same Sex marriage WAS Sharing Culture
[email protected]
In my opinion, I don't think a logical argument against same-sex marriage goes any further than homosexuality is wrong. It's a primae facia belief. People who oppose same-sex marriage seem to be VERY against children in those families and in our society growing up beliving that homosexuality is OK. I heard parts of the beginning of CrossC Checkup (at 3 in afternoon :O))))) and the Alliance critic could not make a real argument becuase he's relying on "it's wrong." He can't go further. Attacked the courts for the rest of the time for giving Parliament a rabbit-punch.
IMHO, Parl. needed one for being glacially slow on this. Times change and people don't want to hate each other. Get over it.
My (logic) thots
Tim T
At 02:56 PM 6/22/03 -0700, Tia wrote:
There was a national phone-in on CBC last night in which the question was
"What's your reaction to Ottawa's decision to recognize same-sex marriage?"
Two of the callers gave the above argument but did not support it with any
facts. I didn't hear the whole show but most callers I heard were
supportive of same-sex marriage.
I would like to hear or read an honest argument for why it dimiishes
heterosexual marriage. Personally, I think the more people we have in
loving unions and declaring that love before society, the better our
society will be for everyone.
It is important to remember that freedom of religion is protected under the
Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, so religious groups have the
freedom to practice according to their doctrine. No religion can be forced
to marry anyone except whom they determine is marriageable. Catholic
priests, for example, will not be required to marry a gay couple, just as
they never have been and never will be required to marry a formerly
divorced couple.
You can hear and read more about the phone-in at
http://www.cbc.ca/checkup/archive/2003/archives03.html
IMHO, Parl. needed one for being glacially slow on this. Times change and people don't want to hate each other. Get over it.
My (logic) thots
Tim T
At 02:56 PM 6/22/03 -0700, Tia wrote:
>That's the argument we've been hearing in Canada, that it somehow makesDonna Andrea in Nova Scotia wrote:
>marriage mean less if it isn't limited to a heterosexual union.
There was a national phone-in on CBC last night in which the question was
"What's your reaction to Ottawa's decision to recognize same-sex marriage?"
Two of the callers gave the above argument but did not support it with any
facts. I didn't hear the whole show but most callers I heard were
supportive of same-sex marriage.
I would like to hear or read an honest argument for why it dimiishes
heterosexual marriage. Personally, I think the more people we have in
loving unions and declaring that love before society, the better our
society will be for everyone.
It is important to remember that freedom of religion is protected under the
Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, so religious groups have the
freedom to practice according to their doctrine. No religion can be forced
to marry anyone except whom they determine is marriageable. Catholic
priests, for example, will not be required to marry a gay couple, just as
they never have been and never will be required to marry a formerly
divorced couple.
You can hear and read more about the phone-in at
http://www.cbc.ca/checkup/archive/2003/archives03.html
----- Original Message -----
From Andrea <andrea@...>
Date Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:06:41 -0300
To [email protected]
Subject Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Sharing Culture
At 02:56 PM 6/22/03 -0700, Tia wrote:
>That's the argument we've been hearing in Canada, that it somehow makes
>marriage mean less if it isn't limited to a heterosexual union.
There was a national phone-in on CBC last night in which the question was
"What's your reaction to Ottawa's decision to recognize same-sex marriage?"
Two of the callers gave the above argument but did not support it with any
facts. I didn't hear the whole show but most callers I heard were
supportive of same-sex marriage.
I would like to hear or read an honest argument for why it dimiishes
heterosexual marriage. Personally, I think the more people we have in
loving unions and declaring that love before society, the better our
society will be for everyone.
It is important to remember that freedom of religion is protected under the
Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, so religious groups have the
freedom to practice according to their doctrine. No religion can be forced
to marry anyone except whom they determine is marriageable. Catholic
priests, for example, will not be required to marry a gay couple, just as
they never have been and never will be required to marry a formerly
divorced couple.
You can hear and read more about the phone-in at
http://www.cbc.ca/checkup/archive/2003/archives03.html
Donna Andrea in Nova Scotia
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/23/03 12:00:46 PM, tmthomas@... writes:
<< IMHO, Parl. needed one for being glacially slow on this. Times change and
people don't want to hate each other. Get over it. >>
If Canada happened happened somehow to include Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi,
Tennessee and thereabouts, you wouldn't be able to say that.
Sandra, who thinks lots of people DO want to hate a long list of people they
think they've found in the Bible
<< IMHO, Parl. needed one for being glacially slow on this. Times change and
people don't want to hate each other. Get over it. >>
If Canada happened happened somehow to include Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi,
Tennessee and thereabouts, you wouldn't be able to say that.
Sandra, who thinks lots of people DO want to hate a long list of people they
think they've found in the Bible
[email protected]
Yep, the story of that Texas Lawman-Of-the-Year that got busted for perjury made it to the Canadian press. Simply cannot imagine the hate that would take.
My (sad) thots,
Tim T
In a message dated 6/23/03 12:00:46 PM, tmthomas@... writes:
<< IMHO, Parl. needed one for being glacially slow on this. Times change and
people don't want to hate each other. Get over it. >>
If Canada happened happened somehow to include Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi,
Tennessee and thereabouts, you wouldn't be able to say that.
Sandra, who thinks lots of people DO want to hate a long list of people they
think they've found in the Bible
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My (sad) thots,
Tim T
In a message dated 6/23/03 12:00:46 PM, tmthomas@... writes:
<< IMHO, Parl. needed one for being glacially slow on this. Times change and
people don't want to hate each other. Get over it. >>
If Canada happened happened somehow to include Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi,
Tennessee and thereabouts, you wouldn't be able to say that.
Sandra, who thinks lots of people DO want to hate a long list of people they
think they've found in the Bible
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/23/2003 2:58:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
There are people everywhere that hate but it's usually not a Bible based hate, but
out of ignorance.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Sandra, who thinks lots of people DO want to hate a long list of peopleThe Bible doesn't teach hate no matter how much you want to believe it.
> they
> think they've found in the Bible
>
There are people everywhere that hate but it's usually not a Bible based hate, but
out of ignorance.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I disagree.
In my short life of 41 years, I have yet to meet a Chrisitan who can accept people as just people. I believe that they are overpowered with the original sin mythology and belive we are all flawed rather than intrinsically valuable. They also completely subjugate animals as lower forms of life. And they deny what seems to me to be the obvious truth of evolution. Taoism and Buddhism seems to have more to offer this planet than basic stewardship of Christianity.
Me, I'm cool with Higher Powers per se, and I belive I have one/many, but not cool with the Bible's rules and prejudices. Out dated, written in times more hateful, and anti-modern-society where inter-tribal wars can kill millions a day. That's what I think. IMHO.
My (humble) thots
Tim T
In a message dated 6/23/2003 2:58:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
There are people everywhere that hate but it's usually not a Bible based hate, but
out of ignorance.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In my short life of 41 years, I have yet to meet a Chrisitan who can accept people as just people. I believe that they are overpowered with the original sin mythology and belive we are all flawed rather than intrinsically valuable. They also completely subjugate animals as lower forms of life. And they deny what seems to me to be the obvious truth of evolution. Taoism and Buddhism seems to have more to offer this planet than basic stewardship of Christianity.
Me, I'm cool with Higher Powers per se, and I belive I have one/many, but not cool with the Bible's rules and prejudices. Out dated, written in times more hateful, and anti-modern-society where inter-tribal wars can kill millions a day. That's what I think. IMHO.
My (humble) thots
Tim T
In a message dated 6/23/2003 2:58:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Sandra, who thinks lots of people DO want to hate a long list of peopleThe Bible doesn't teach hate no matter how much you want to believe it.
> they
> think they've found in the Bible
>
There are people everywhere that hate but it's usually not a Bible based hate, but
out of ignorance.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/23/2003 5:28:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tmthomas@... writes:
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tmthomas@... writes:
> In my short life of 41 years, I have yet to meet a Chrisitan who can acceptHello, my name is Glena, nice to meet you.
> people as just people.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/23/03 5:28:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tmthomas@...
writes:
people. Nice to meet you :-)
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> I disagree.Hello, Tim, I am Teresa. I am a Christian and I accept people as just
>
> In my short life of 41 years, I have yet to meet a Chrisitan who can accept
> people as just people.
people. Nice to meet you :-)
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
LeAnn
Tim T, I'm very sorry you have not met an accepting Christian in your
entire life. To me that is almost unbearable to think! I am a
Christian, and have know and enjoyed the company of most of the
people I have ever met. I have preffered to stay away from some of
them simply because they were unhealthy people for me (by this I mean
they were abusive or overly negative), but I have never felt the
desire to sever ties to anyone based on superficial assumptions. I
did have the unfortunate experience of trying to find a church to
join in my particular faith, and found that most were just as you
have seen; unaccepting. They were unaccepting of me, and the only
thing "wrong" was to have a child as a teenager. I have since found
one that will take me as I am, though. I share your dissappointment
in the people, but I have never been dissappointed in the faith
itself. I just wanted to let you to meet at least one of us that
loves people just for being people.
LeAnn
entire life. To me that is almost unbearable to think! I am a
Christian, and have know and enjoyed the company of most of the
people I have ever met. I have preffered to stay away from some of
them simply because they were unhealthy people for me (by this I mean
they were abusive or overly negative), but I have never felt the
desire to sever ties to anyone based on superficial assumptions. I
did have the unfortunate experience of trying to find a church to
join in my particular faith, and found that most were just as you
have seen; unaccepting. They were unaccepting of me, and the only
thing "wrong" was to have a child as a teenager. I have since found
one that will take me as I am, though. I share your dissappointment
in the people, but I have never been dissappointed in the faith
itself. I just wanted to let you to meet at least one of us that
loves people just for being people.
LeAnn
--- In [email protected], tmthomas@s... wrote:
> I disagree.
>
> In my short life of 41 years, I have yet to meet a Chrisitan who
can accept people as just people. I believe that they are
overpowered with the original sin mythology and belive we are all
flawed rather than intrinsically valuable. They also completely
subjugate animals as lower forms of life. And they deny what seems
to me to be the obvious truth of evolution. Taoism and Buddhism
seems to have more to offer this planet than basic stewardship of
Christianity.
>
> Me, I'm cool with Higher Powers per se, and I belive I have
one/many, but not cool with the Bible's rules and prejudices. Out
dated, written in times more hateful, and anti-modern-society where
inter-tribal wars can kill millions a day. That's what I think.
IMHO.
>
> My (humble) thots
> Tim T
>
>
>
> In a message dated 6/23/2003 2:58:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> SandraDodd@a... writes:
>
> > Sandra, who thinks lots of people DO want to hate a long list of
people
> > they
> > think they've found in the Bible
> >
>
> The Bible doesn't teach hate no matter how much you want to believe
it.
> There are people everywhere that hate but it's usually not a Bible
based hate, but
> out of ignorance.
>
> glena
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
LeAnn wrote:
-=-I just wanted to let you to meet at least one of us that
loves people just for being people.
A rare find indeed. :O))
Tim T
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-I just wanted to let you to meet at least one of us that
loves people just for being people.
A rare find indeed. :O))
Tim T
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/23/03 2:28:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tmthomas@...
writes:
You had me doing a double take on this sentence, I swear I have said nearly
the same thing before.
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> Me, I'm cool with Higher Powers per se, and I belive I have one/many, butTim,
> not cool with the Bible's rules and prejudices.
You had me doing a double take on this sentence, I swear I have said nearly
the same thing before.
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>In my short life of 41 years, I have yet to meet a Chrisitan who can acceptHello, Tim, I am Teresa. I am a Christian and I accept people as just
>people as just people.
people. Nice to meet you :-)
Hi Tim,
I think you could add me into that category as well. If you are coming to
the unschooling conference this summer we will actually be able to meet in
person.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Solich
> In a message dated 6/23/2003 5:28:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,accept
> tmthomas@... writes:
>
>>> In my short life of 41 years, I have yet to meet a Chrisitan who can
people as just people.<<<
I hear what you're saying and there are many Christians out there who stand
in judgment on others. I have friends who would fall into that category.
What I have noticed is that these same people live with a lot of
condemnation. The burdens they place on themselves is heavy and they live in
fear of not measuring up. That has got to cloud your vision with other
people.
I also think 90% of Christians miss the whole point of the Bible and it ends
up becoming a book containing the rules of how to live a *good* life. For me
the Bible is not about morality but God trying to find ways to communicate
with us because He loves us.
I think we can all learn from one another no matter who we are or what we
believe. If we would just stop(leave the dogma on the doorstep) and listen
once in awhile. That sounds a bit naive doesn't it. Probably is.
Anyway I think the differences that exist in people make life much more
interesting.
Julie, who believes in Jesus but doesn't really like to use the term
Christian and Jesus freak has been way overdone!!
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
>
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>email to:
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Tim and Maureen
Nice to meet you, of course. But, with respect, I'm not really convinced. :O\
Tim T
Tim T
----- Original Message -----
From: rubyprincesstsg@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] OT Same Sex marriage WAS Sharing Culture
In a message dated 6/23/2003 5:28:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tmthomas@... writes:
> In my short life of 41 years, I have yet to meet a Chrisitan who can accept
> people as just people.
Hello, my name is Glena, nice to meet you.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tim and Maureen
Prince George BC Canada to S.C. on my budget - um, no - but wish I *could* meet you and other Christian unschoolers - we could have a rousing good discussion :O)) Seems almost a contradiction to my tiny brain. :O\
My (stretching mind) thots
Tim T
My (stretching mind) thots
Tim T
----- Original Message -----
From: genant2@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] OT Same Sex marriage WAS Sharing Culture
>In my short life of 41 years, I have yet to meet a Chrisitan who can accept
>people as just people.
Hello, Tim, I am Teresa. I am a Christian and I accept people as just
people. Nice to meet you :-)
Hi Tim,
I think you could add me into that category as well. If you are coming to
the unschooling conference this summer we will actually be able to meet in
person.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tim and Maureen
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. You agree with me? On Higher Power or Bible rules & prejudices, or both, or neither?
Tim T
Tim T
----- Original Message -----
From: RJHill241@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] OT Same Sex marriage WAS Sharing Culture
In a message dated 6/23/03 2:28:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tmthomas@...
writes:
> Me, I'm cool with Higher Powers per se, and I belive I have one/many, but
> not cool with the Bible's rules and prejudices.
Tim,
You had me doing a double take on this sentence, I swear I have said nearly
the same thing before.
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<< In my short life of 41 years, I have yet to meet a Chrisitan who can
accept people as just people. >> Tim T
Well Tim, in my short life of 35 years, I have always been a Christian who
can accept people as just people! Sounds to me like YOU are the one that cannot
accept people for who they are. BTW, the proper spelling is Christian ;-)
Kim
accept people as just people. >> Tim T
Well Tim, in my short life of 35 years, I have always been a Christian who
can accept people as just people! Sounds to me like YOU are the one that cannot
accept people for who they are. BTW, the proper spelling is Christian ;-)
Kim
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/23/03 9:02:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tmthomas@...
writes:
had written and it was being copied. LOL That's why I did the double take. So I
guess I agree with the sentence as it was written since I actually thought I
wrote it.LOL Not that I thought you didn't write it, but rather it just sounded
so familiar.
Rhonda - who thought she was Tim for a minute, LOL
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. You agree with me? On Higher Power orSorry, I meant that when I read it, I actually thought it was a sentence I
> Bible rules &prejudices, or both, or neither?
>
> Tim T
>
had written and it was being copied. LOL That's why I did the double take. So I
guess I agree with the sentence as it was written since I actually thought I
wrote it.LOL Not that I thought you didn't write it, but rather it just sounded
so familiar.
Rhonda - who thought she was Tim for a minute, LOL
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/23/03 11:09:56 PM, HOMESCHOOL4GOOD@... writes:
<< Sounds to me like YOU are the one that cannot
accept people for who they are. >>
If all he knows about them is that they're Christian and he knows enough to
know the likelihood that they will judge him (his spelling, at least), he's
accepting them on prior experience. Any individual can raise the estimation of
a whole group. I know my kids have changed a lot of people's minds about
whether unschooling can work. But if someone said he had never met a homeschooler
who wasn't weird my first guess would be he hadn't met many.
The odds of living in North America and not meeting thousands of Christians
by the time one is grown is zip.
The arguments against same sex marriage are Christian arguments aren't they?
Homophobic Bible-reference stuff? So no matter how many Christians might
say "I don't agree with the particulars of that argument," the opposition still
takes a God-quoting position.
And the reason it will be shot down hard in the U.S. and the reason the U.S.
won't sign off on the U.N.'s rights of the child resolution and the reason
the Equal Rights Amendment failed is chiefly because of the Christian position
on fathers having rights over wives and children.
Sandra
<< Sounds to me like YOU are the one that cannot
accept people for who they are. >>
If all he knows about them is that they're Christian and he knows enough to
know the likelihood that they will judge him (his spelling, at least), he's
accepting them on prior experience. Any individual can raise the estimation of
a whole group. I know my kids have changed a lot of people's minds about
whether unschooling can work. But if someone said he had never met a homeschooler
who wasn't weird my first guess would be he hadn't met many.
The odds of living in North America and not meeting thousands of Christians
by the time one is grown is zip.
The arguments against same sex marriage are Christian arguments aren't they?
Homophobic Bible-reference stuff? So no matter how many Christians might
say "I don't agree with the particulars of that argument," the opposition still
takes a God-quoting position.
And the reason it will be shot down hard in the U.S. and the reason the U.S.
won't sign off on the U.N.'s rights of the child resolution and the reason
the Equal Rights Amendment failed is chiefly because of the Christian position
on fathers having rights over wives and children.
Sandra
Kimberly
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
<< If all he knows about them is that they're Christian >>
I appreciate your opinion and that is what it is, your opinion. Just
like Tim had his opinion and that is good for him also. Mine is that
I don't care how many Christians or unschoolers you come by or don't
come by in life, they should not be grouped as ALL being the same.
There are many Christians that accept other people for being just
people. I know enough to comment about Christians seemings I am one.
Kim
Fetteroll
on 6/23/03 5:24 PM, tmthomas@... at tmthomas@... wrote:
Did you say you were in Canada? Are things that different in Canada?
Since you make the distinction between Christian and Buddhist/Taoist I
assume you mean by Christianity the religion that encompases Presbyterians,
Lutherans, Methodists and so forth.
And yet you mention their denial of evolution. That belief is only true of
Bible literalists and they don't represent the majority of Christians.
In America it's a fairly safe assumption that everyone we meet is Christian.
And yet Americans can be anywhere from conservative to liberal. So it's not
safe to make the broad statement you did.
*Unless* someone lives in the Bible Belt. *Unless* someone is confining
their assumptions about Christians to people who *tell* others they're
Christian.
In the US people don't go around telling people they're Christians. It's
just assumed. It'd be like telling people they're human ;-)
*Unless* what they mean by Christian is fundamentalist Christian. And *then*
the reason they're telling you they're Christian is because they're
proselytizing. And proselytizing is part of the package that includes the
viewpoints you mentioned above. So it's likely that anyone who proselytizes
also holds the other beliefs.
So, how do you know the judgemental people you've met are Christian? Have
they told you? Are you aware of their religion because of the cirucmstances
you're meeting them in. Christians you meet in a demonstration outside a
Planned Parenthood clinic are not likely to be a broad spectrum of
Christians ;-)
Joyce
> In my short life of 41 years, I have yet to meet a Chrisitan who can acceptWhich makes it sound like all liberals are nonChristian.
> people as just people. I believe that they are overpowered with the original
> sin mythology and belive we are all flawed rather than intrinsically valuable.
> They also completely subjugate animals as lower forms of life. And they deny
> what seems to me to be the obvious truth of evolution.
Did you say you were in Canada? Are things that different in Canada?
Since you make the distinction between Christian and Buddhist/Taoist I
assume you mean by Christianity the religion that encompases Presbyterians,
Lutherans, Methodists and so forth.
And yet you mention their denial of evolution. That belief is only true of
Bible literalists and they don't represent the majority of Christians.
In America it's a fairly safe assumption that everyone we meet is Christian.
And yet Americans can be anywhere from conservative to liberal. So it's not
safe to make the broad statement you did.
*Unless* someone lives in the Bible Belt. *Unless* someone is confining
their assumptions about Christians to people who *tell* others they're
Christian.
In the US people don't go around telling people they're Christians. It's
just assumed. It'd be like telling people they're human ;-)
*Unless* what they mean by Christian is fundamentalist Christian. And *then*
the reason they're telling you they're Christian is because they're
proselytizing. And proselytizing is part of the package that includes the
viewpoints you mentioned above. So it's likely that anyone who proselytizes
also holds the other beliefs.
So, how do you know the judgemental people you've met are Christian? Have
they told you? Are you aware of their religion because of the cirucmstances
you're meeting them in. Christians you meet in a demonstration outside a
Planned Parenthood clinic are not likely to be a broad spectrum of
Christians ;-)
Joyce
Fetteroll
Before this goes down the path that it always goes down, be aware that not
everyone is using the word Christian the same way.
To the broad spectrum of mainstream America, Christian means not Buddhist,
not Jewish, not Hindu, not Muslim. Obviously Christian means more than that,
but it's a broad religion encompassing a fair slew of beliefs and practices
centered around Jesus Christ.
But fundamentalist Christians of the most conservative type who resemble the
description Tim put forth, identify their narrow practice of Christianity as
Christian. Period. No one is Christian regardless of what you call
yourselves. Not Lutherans. Not Episcopalians. And very most definitely not
Mormons or Catholics.
It'd be pointless to argue whether the spread of this movement is truth or
politics, but, regardless, it has a powerful political component. There are
many practices and beliefs in fundamentalism (of any belief system) that are
easily encouraged and exploited by those who want to create a movement.
(Which leads into HSLDA and Reconstructionists and lots else. The Christian
political movement is huge and you should be aware of it, especially since
it has an effect on homeschooling laws.)
People who use the word Christian to mean fundamentalist Christian are not
at fault and shouldn't be attacked. They are using the word the
fundamentalists Christians use for themselves. If you want to be angry at
anyone, be angry at the fundamentalist Christians for appropriating the word
Christian and turning it into something narrow that doesn't reflect your
beliefs.
Since most (mainstream) Christians tend to feel their religion is private so
don¹t discuss it much and the (fundamentalist) Christians are very vocal
about their beliefs some people do mistakenly equate fundamentalist beliefs
with all Christians. That is not chance. When fundamentalist Christians
speak their opinions, they self identify themselves as Christians as though
they¹re speaking for all (mainstream) Christians but are actually only
speaking for their narrow definition of Christianity.
It is *not* safe to make assumptions about how someone is using the word
Christian. If you guess wrong you will be, once again, going down the
rancorous path we just visited of two people who think they¹re arguing
different points of view about the same subject, when they aren¹t discussing
the same subject at all.
Tim, I believe, has mistakenly equated fundamentalist beliefs with
mainstream Christian beliefs. Sandra (and others?) are using Christian as
the fundamentalist Christians do.
*Please* read and respond thoughtfully, with all this in mind. If you are
not aware of the extent of the Christian political movement, then be aware
that there are people here with a great deal more knowledge on the subject
of ³Christians² than you have.
This topic is *always* a minefield of misunderstanding. All because the
political movement of fundamentalist Christians has (deliberately) chosen to
identify themselves as Christians.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
everyone is using the word Christian the same way.
To the broad spectrum of mainstream America, Christian means not Buddhist,
not Jewish, not Hindu, not Muslim. Obviously Christian means more than that,
but it's a broad religion encompassing a fair slew of beliefs and practices
centered around Jesus Christ.
But fundamentalist Christians of the most conservative type who resemble the
description Tim put forth, identify their narrow practice of Christianity as
Christian. Period. No one is Christian regardless of what you call
yourselves. Not Lutherans. Not Episcopalians. And very most definitely not
Mormons or Catholics.
It'd be pointless to argue whether the spread of this movement is truth or
politics, but, regardless, it has a powerful political component. There are
many practices and beliefs in fundamentalism (of any belief system) that are
easily encouraged and exploited by those who want to create a movement.
(Which leads into HSLDA and Reconstructionists and lots else. The Christian
political movement is huge and you should be aware of it, especially since
it has an effect on homeschooling laws.)
People who use the word Christian to mean fundamentalist Christian are not
at fault and shouldn't be attacked. They are using the word the
fundamentalists Christians use for themselves. If you want to be angry at
anyone, be angry at the fundamentalist Christians for appropriating the word
Christian and turning it into something narrow that doesn't reflect your
beliefs.
Since most (mainstream) Christians tend to feel their religion is private so
don¹t discuss it much and the (fundamentalist) Christians are very vocal
about their beliefs some people do mistakenly equate fundamentalist beliefs
with all Christians. That is not chance. When fundamentalist Christians
speak their opinions, they self identify themselves as Christians as though
they¹re speaking for all (mainstream) Christians but are actually only
speaking for their narrow definition of Christianity.
It is *not* safe to make assumptions about how someone is using the word
Christian. If you guess wrong you will be, once again, going down the
rancorous path we just visited of two people who think they¹re arguing
different points of view about the same subject, when they aren¹t discussing
the same subject at all.
Tim, I believe, has mistakenly equated fundamentalist beliefs with
mainstream Christian beliefs. Sandra (and others?) are using Christian as
the fundamentalist Christians do.
*Please* read and respond thoughtfully, with all this in mind. If you are
not aware of the extent of the Christian political movement, then be aware
that there are people here with a great deal more knowledge on the subject
of ³Christians² than you have.
This topic is *always* a minefield of misunderstanding. All because the
political movement of fundamentalist Christians has (deliberately) chosen to
identify themselves as Christians.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
Barb Eaton
Maybe I should have went private with this but I can't. Kim that was
tacky. :-(
I'm Christian and I try my best. I haven't alway and probably won't
alway see people as just people. I've had my issues. My fault that I can
work on but I'm not perfect and won't claim to be. Even though I try my
best.
Barb E
"The function of the child is to live his own life - not the life that his
anxious parents think he should live."
A S Neill
on 6/24/03 7:47 AM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
tacky. :-(
I'm Christian and I try my best. I haven't alway and probably won't
alway see people as just people. I've had my issues. My fault that I can
work on but I'm not perfect and won't claim to be. Even though I try my
best.
Barb E
"The function of the child is to live his own life - not the life that his
anxious parents think he should live."
A S Neill
on 6/24/03 7:47 AM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
> << In my short life of 41 years, I have yet to meet a Chrisitan who can
> accept people as just people. >> Tim T
>
> Well Tim, in my short life of 35 years, I have always been a Christian who
> can accept people as just people! Sounds to me like YOU are the one that
> cannot
> accept people for who they are. BTW, the proper spelling is Christian ;-)
>
> Kim
Fetteroll
on 6/23/03 3:08 PM, rubyprincesstsg@... at rubyprincesstsg@...
wrote:
not at debate.
The Bible does not need defended here. No one is attacking it.
(And, besides, it isn't unschooling.)
But it's naive to not be aware that people -- a whole political movement of
people in fact -- are able to use the Bible in order to encourage hatred of
"other".
(And the political movement that encourages that does effect homeschooling
laws and percerptions of who we as homeschoolers are.)
Again, that's not an attack on the Bible. The Bible is not unique in its
exploitability as a tool to create fear and to control people. It's not the
tool that's at fault. It's the people using the tool.
Joyce
wrote:
> The Bible doesn't teach hate no matter how much you want to believe it.Hate is not exclusive to followers of the Bible/Chistianity. That point is
> There are people everywhere that hate but it's usually not a Bible based hate,
> but
> out of ignorance.
not at debate.
The Bible does not need defended here. No one is attacking it.
(And, besides, it isn't unschooling.)
But it's naive to not be aware that people -- a whole political movement of
people in fact -- are able to use the Bible in order to encourage hatred of
"other".
(And the political movement that encourages that does effect homeschooling
laws and percerptions of who we as homeschoolers are.)
Again, that's not an attack on the Bible. The Bible is not unique in its
exploitability as a tool to create fear and to control people. It's not the
tool that's at fault. It's the people using the tool.
Joyce
Tim and Maureen
Ok, Joyce, I hear that - maybe I'm throwing baby and bathwater, eh.
Tim T
Tim T
----- Original Message -----
From: Fetteroll
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 6:37 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Unaccepting Christians?
Before this goes down the path that it always goes down, be aware that not
everyone is using the word Christian the same way.
To the broad spectrum of mainstream America, Christian means not Buddhist,
not Jewish, not Hindu, not Muslim. Obviously Christian means more than that,
but it's a broad religion encompassing a fair slew of beliefs and practices
centered around Jesus Christ.
But fundamentalist Christians of the most conservative type who resemble the
description Tim put forth, identify their narrow practice of Christianity as
Christian. Period. No one is Christian regardless of what you call
yourselves. Not Lutherans. Not Episcopalians. And very most definitely not
Mormons or Catholics.
It'd be pointless to argue whether the spread of this movement is truth or
politics, but, regardless, it has a powerful political component. There are
many practices and beliefs in fundamentalism (of any belief system) that are
easily encouraged and exploited by those who want to create a movement.
(Which leads into HSLDA and Reconstructionists and lots else. The Christian
political movement is huge and you should be aware of it, especially since
it has an effect on homeschooling laws.)
People who use the word Christian to mean fundamentalist Christian are not
at fault and shouldn't be attacked. They are using the word the
fundamentalists Christians use for themselves. If you want to be angry at
anyone, be angry at the fundamentalist Christians for appropriating the word
Christian and turning it into something narrow that doesn't reflect your
beliefs.
Since most (mainstream) Christians tend to feel their religion is private so
don¹t discuss it much and the (fundamentalist) Christians are very vocal
about their beliefs some people do mistakenly equate fundamentalist beliefs
with all Christians. That is not chance. When fundamentalist Christians
speak their opinions, they self identify themselves as Christians as though
they¹re speaking for all (mainstream) Christians but are actually only
speaking for their narrow definition of Christianity.
It is *not* safe to make assumptions about how someone is using the word
Christian. If you guess wrong you will be, once again, going down the
rancorous path we just visited of two people who think they¹re arguing
different points of view about the same subject, when they aren¹t discussing
the same subject at all.
Tim, I believe, has mistakenly equated fundamentalist beliefs with
mainstream Christian beliefs. Sandra (and others?) are using Christian as
the fundamentalist Christians do.
*Please* read and respond thoughtfully, with all this in mind. If you are
not aware of the extent of the Christian political movement, then be aware
that there are people here with a great deal more knowledge on the subject
of ³Christians² than you have.
This topic is *always* a minefield of misunderstanding. All because the
political movement of fundamentalist Christians has (deliberately) chosen to
identify themselves as Christians.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/24/2003 9:59:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
You ought to keep this post and maybe post it occasionally as you do the one
about changing threads---out of consideration for others!!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
> This topic is *always* a minefield of misunderstanding. All because theJoyce,
> political movement of fundamentalist Christians has (deliberately) chosen to
> identify themselves as Christians.
>
You ought to keep this post and maybe post it occasionally as you do the one
about changing threads---out of consideration for others!!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<<Maybe I should have went private with this but I can't. Kim that was
tacky. :-( I'm Christian and I try my best. I haven't alway and probably
won't alway see people as just people. I've had my issues. My fault that I can
work on but I'm not perfect and won't claim to be. Even though I try my best.
would like everyone to know how tacky you think I am compared to you. I've
seen way more "tacky" on this list at times than what I said! How tacky is it to
post on a rather large unschooling list and judge people and then tell them
what they said is tacky?
See, you have had your issues and they are yours. I, however have not had
issues accepting people as just people, and that was my point not to group all
Christians together. That is how I took the statement made and that is how I
replied to it. I'm not perfect either and I don't claim to be nor did I when I
responded. Maybe being tacky with my words is an issue I will have to work on if
I decide it really is an issue not because someone else tells me and the
entire list.
Kim
tacky. :-( I'm Christian and I try my best. I haven't alway and probably
won't alway see people as just people. I've had my issues. My fault that I can
work on but I'm not perfect and won't claim to be. Even though I try my best.
>>Barb EIt is tacky to state ones opinion? Go private with that? Why should you! You
would like everyone to know how tacky you think I am compared to you. I've
seen way more "tacky" on this list at times than what I said! How tacky is it to
post on a rather large unschooling list and judge people and then tell them
what they said is tacky?
See, you have had your issues and they are yours. I, however have not had
issues accepting people as just people, and that was my point not to group all
Christians together. That is how I took the statement made and that is how I
replied to it. I'm not perfect either and I don't claim to be nor did I when I
responded. Maybe being tacky with my words is an issue I will have to work on if
I decide it really is an issue not because someone else tells me and the
entire list.
Kim
Tia Leschke
> See, you have had your issues and they are yours. I, however have not hadall
> issues accepting people as just people, and that was my point not to group
> Christians together. That is how I took the statement made and that is howI
> replied to it. I'm not perfect either and I don't claim to be nor did Iwhen I
> responded. Maybe being tacky with my words is an issue I will have to workon if
> I decide it really is an issue not because someone else tells me and theI don't remember the post exactly, but maybe correcting the spelling of
> entire list.
Christian when it was obviously a typo was considered tacky.
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
[email protected]
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< And the reason it will be shot down hard in the U.S. and the reason the
U.S.
won't sign off on the U.N.'s rights of the child resolution and the reason
the Equal Rights Amendment failed is chiefly because of the Christian
position
on fathers having rights over wives and children.
Sandra >>
Unfortunately. Even tho these things are seen as constitutionally correct,
the Christian majority in this country will have it's say. It works the same
for marriage rights.
Interestingly, there is an anti sodomy law currently being challenged in
Texas by two men arrested in their homes. ( It specifically allows hetero sodomy,
but not homosexual sodomy, if you can believe that!) If the courts find it
unconstitutional, the law, which seems to be a legislation of Christian
morality, may be struck down, and civil rights advocates will be able to use that
ruling as a base for challenging other laws, like the marriage statutes.
~Aimee
<< And the reason it will be shot down hard in the U.S. and the reason the
U.S.
won't sign off on the U.N.'s rights of the child resolution and the reason
the Equal Rights Amendment failed is chiefly because of the Christian
position
on fathers having rights over wives and children.
Sandra >>
Unfortunately. Even tho these things are seen as constitutionally correct,
the Christian majority in this country will have it's say. It works the same
for marriage rights.
Interestingly, there is an anti sodomy law currently being challenged in
Texas by two men arrested in their homes. ( It specifically allows hetero sodomy,
but not homosexual sodomy, if you can believe that!) If the courts find it
unconstitutional, the law, which seems to be a legislation of Christian
morality, may be struck down, and civil rights advocates will be able to use that
ruling as a base for challenging other laws, like the marriage statutes.
~Aimee
Barb Eaton
Yes that was what I was referring to.
Barb E
"No one can make you change.
No one can stop you from changing.
No one really knows how you must change.
Not even you.
Not until you start. "
- Dr. David Viscott, Author and Psychologist
Barb E
"No one can make you change.
No one can stop you from changing.
No one really knows how you must change.
Not even you.
Not until you start. "
- Dr. David Viscott, Author and Psychologist
>
> I don't remember the post exactly, but maybe correcting the spelling of
> Christian when it was obviously a typo was considered tacky.
> Tia
[email protected]
<<I don't remember the post exactly, but maybe correcting the spelling of
Christian when it was obviously a typo was considered tacky.>>
Tia
And there have been plenty here that have corrected or questioned someone's
spelling! And lots of times, it was obvious that it was a typo. All of a sudden
now it is tacky to correct or ask about someone's spelling? But Moroon can be
questioned? Please, lets not be so nit picky.
This was what I said in my post:
<< BTW, the proper spelling is Christian ;-) >>
I did not put the smile because I didn't have anything to do, I put it there
as to show I was not saying it in a mean way.
Sort of like when I say something is good or bad, and everyone knows that I
am not good with words but they jump on the list and correct me anyway.
Kim
Christian when it was obviously a typo was considered tacky.>>
Tia
And there have been plenty here that have corrected or questioned someone's
spelling! And lots of times, it was obvious that it was a typo. All of a sudden
now it is tacky to correct or ask about someone's spelling? But Moroon can be
questioned? Please, lets not be so nit picky.
This was what I said in my post:
<< BTW, the proper spelling is Christian ;-) >>
I did not put the smile because I didn't have anything to do, I put it there
as to show I was not saying it in a mean way.
Sort of like when I say something is good or bad, and everyone knows that I
am not good with words but they jump on the list and correct me anyway.
Kim