Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: thumb sucking?/ending breastfeeding
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/18/2003 9:27:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
unolist@... writes:
had a talk with my FIL. In almost 25 years there have been less than a
handful of "serious" talks with the man.
He's been married over forty years. For the last 19 years he's shared his
marriage bed with one grandchild or the other that my MIL talked her daughters
into giving to them.
He's never said a word about this and I always thought he WANTED it this way
and accepted it as their life together.
He wishes he HAD said something at some point. He sleeps in a small bed in
the same room with his wife and grandson. The grandson wets the bed and sleeps
with his hands between MIL legs. He doesn't like that, so he sleeps in the
bed he bought for the grandson.
He feels cheated, he feels neglected, he feels less than and loved less for
all these years. Now, these are not his flesh and blood children, but they are
his flesh and blood grandchildren and now his legally adopted children. He
loves them beyond words but he also loves his wife and wants a relationship
with her.
When his own children were young he said that he understood that the children
came first and they both worked hard at the common goal of being parents but
at night they were able to come together and share space of their own. A
space that wasn't consumed with children. They could reach out and touch each
other in the night and he even said that sex was not the main goal of his
relationship with MIL but it would be nice on occasion.
He is thinking of moving away to their vacation house. He said he will miss
them terribly but now that he's retired he just can't be there and not be a
"part" of things.
I will say that my MIL caters to the children 24 hours a day. Indulges them
whenever and with whatever they want. The two kids there are homeschooled,
well one is done but the other homeschools and she takes this raising children
thing seriously. Not like the mothers here do. More in the line of what
Sandra sometimes describes. Really intent on making them think the world stops
outside their doorway and keeping them believing that she is the world to them.
I don't know if your husband ever feels this way or not. No one could have
told me my FIL wasn't thrilled with his life but now that he's spoken the words
to me, I can see where he must have felt left out and unimportant at times.
I would think it very hard to give up your marital bed for almost twenty years
as well.
I know that I spend a lot of time with my children, I do more for them than
for my DH and it's opened my eyes to make some of the extra effort that I go to
with my children spill over onto DH.
In the end I'd say that you as the mother have a right to your own body and
that your feelings are just as valid as your child's. If it has become too
much for you, then only you can make the decision to stop nursing. I'm sure
there are other ways you can comfort your child that will be just as meaningful to
them.
I nursed all of my children, until they decided to stop but none really had
much interest much over a year old. There was too much too do and see and they
didn't want to sit still too long for nursing, except at bedtime for a minute
or two and that even stopped before the age of two.
Some children would nurse forever I guess. My nephew was six or so when he
would still walk up to my sister sitting in a chair, unbutton her place, lift
out the breast and bend down and nurse sometimes he would just stand there and
fondle the breast then go back out and play. I will say it caused a lot of
controversy but she didn't mind at all. I'm not sure when he stopped breast
feeding or even if he has yet, he's going to be eight in Feb.
So I guess it really is up to the mother and child to decide what works best
for both of them, not just one or the other.
My thoughts are with you as you figure this out.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unolist@... writes:
> There has to be some kindI'm not sure what the answer is for your family but just this past weekend I
> of compromise! And he has been patient for four years, sharing the
> bed or going off to a separate bed most of the time. Is it fair to
> the marriage?
had a talk with my FIL. In almost 25 years there have been less than a
handful of "serious" talks with the man.
He's been married over forty years. For the last 19 years he's shared his
marriage bed with one grandchild or the other that my MIL talked her daughters
into giving to them.
He's never said a word about this and I always thought he WANTED it this way
and accepted it as their life together.
He wishes he HAD said something at some point. He sleeps in a small bed in
the same room with his wife and grandson. The grandson wets the bed and sleeps
with his hands between MIL legs. He doesn't like that, so he sleeps in the
bed he bought for the grandson.
He feels cheated, he feels neglected, he feels less than and loved less for
all these years. Now, these are not his flesh and blood children, but they are
his flesh and blood grandchildren and now his legally adopted children. He
loves them beyond words but he also loves his wife and wants a relationship
with her.
When his own children were young he said that he understood that the children
came first and they both worked hard at the common goal of being parents but
at night they were able to come together and share space of their own. A
space that wasn't consumed with children. They could reach out and touch each
other in the night and he even said that sex was not the main goal of his
relationship with MIL but it would be nice on occasion.
He is thinking of moving away to their vacation house. He said he will miss
them terribly but now that he's retired he just can't be there and not be a
"part" of things.
I will say that my MIL caters to the children 24 hours a day. Indulges them
whenever and with whatever they want. The two kids there are homeschooled,
well one is done but the other homeschools and she takes this raising children
thing seriously. Not like the mothers here do. More in the line of what
Sandra sometimes describes. Really intent on making them think the world stops
outside their doorway and keeping them believing that she is the world to them.
I don't know if your husband ever feels this way or not. No one could have
told me my FIL wasn't thrilled with his life but now that he's spoken the words
to me, I can see where he must have felt left out and unimportant at times.
I would think it very hard to give up your marital bed for almost twenty years
as well.
I know that I spend a lot of time with my children, I do more for them than
for my DH and it's opened my eyes to make some of the extra effort that I go to
with my children spill over onto DH.
In the end I'd say that you as the mother have a right to your own body and
that your feelings are just as valid as your child's. If it has become too
much for you, then only you can make the decision to stop nursing. I'm sure
there are other ways you can comfort your child that will be just as meaningful to
them.
I nursed all of my children, until they decided to stop but none really had
much interest much over a year old. There was too much too do and see and they
didn't want to sit still too long for nursing, except at bedtime for a minute
or two and that even stopped before the age of two.
Some children would nurse forever I guess. My nephew was six or so when he
would still walk up to my sister sitting in a chair, unbutton her place, lift
out the breast and bend down and nurse sometimes he would just stand there and
fondle the breast then go back out and play. I will say it caused a lot of
controversy but she didn't mind at all. I'm not sure when he stopped breast
feeding or even if he has yet, he's going to be eight in Feb.
So I guess it really is up to the mother and child to decide what works best
for both of them, not just one or the other.
My thoughts are with you as you figure this out.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
averyschmidt
> He wishes he HAD said something at some point. He sleeps in asmall bed in
> the same room with his wife and grandson. The grandson wets thebed and sleeps
> with his hands between MIL legs. He doesn't like that, so hesleeps in the
> bed he bought for the grandson.less for
> He feels cheated, he feels neglected, he feels less than and loved
> all these years.It sounds like the problem isn't the family bed but a serious lack
of communication.
> When his own children were young he said that he understood thatthe children
> came first and they both worked hard at the common goal of beingparents but
> at night they were able to come together and share space of theirown. A
> space that wasn't consumed with children. They could reach outand touch each
> other in the night and he even said that sex was not the main goalof his
> relationship with MIL but it would be nice on occasion.This is too black and white. My husband and I have welcomed our
children in our "family bed" for ten years now, and it has *not*
affected our marriage or our sex life. With communication and
creativity *everyone* can get their needs met.
You seem to have set up a dichotomy in your mind... it's either
being "consumed with children" or having a happy, healthy marriage
with children kept in their place (away from parents) at night.
There is a lot of middle ground in between that you seem to have
purposefully overlooked.
For us, what works has changed over the years. When the older two
were little and both in our king-sized bed we always had an
alternate place to go in the house (after they were asleep) when we
wanted to be alone at night. These days our youngest is happy to
start off the night in a room shared with his brother (he falls
asleep quickly while being read to and having his back rubbed by me
or his Dad) with the understanding that if and when he wakes up in
the night he's welcome to join us right across the hall. This way
we get a few hours in the early part of the night to be alone. And
if our son wets our bed- big deal. We do an extra load of laundry
in the morning. It doesn't bother us.
> Some children would nurse forever I guess.This is a dangerous and wrong assumption, IMO.
Patti
unolist
--- In [email protected], rubyprincesstsg@a... wrote:
Ang
>I really appreciated the whole post. Great insights, thank you.
> My thoughts are with you as you figure this out.
>
> glena
Ang
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/18/2003 12:09:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
patti.schmidt2@... writes:
now looking back he feels he missed time with his wife because they were busy
raising grandchildren.
<With communication and
creativity *everyone* can get their needs met.
You seem to have set up a dichotomy in your mind... it's either
being "consumed with children" or having a happy, healthy marriage
with children kept in their place (away from parents) at night.
There is a lot of middle ground in between that you seem to have
purposefully overlooked.>
I really didn't overlook that but was simply relaying information that I had
just discussed with my FIL. Something from a male perspective, something I
hadn't noticed at all in their marriage, something that now suddenly he looks
back and wishes had been different.
<And
if our son wets our bed- big deal. We do an extra load of laundry
in the morning. It doesn't bother us.>
That's great that it doesn't bother you but to him a six year old that has
had four or five bottles during the night and cuts loose really makes a mess too
uncomfortable for him to sleep in and I can understand his feelings on that.
<Some children would nurse forever I guess.
This is a dangerous and wrong assumption, IMO.>
I don't know how dangerous it is or wrong to make that statement. I don't
think anyone would mistake me thinking a 21 year old would roll home to nurse.
I would like to clarify myself and say that some nurse much longer than others
and at some point there are probably lots of mothers who think it will never
end, but it does end at some point I am sure.
glena who is sorry you were so offended by this post which were not my direct
feelings on anything, just sharing something from a male point of view AFTER
the fact.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
patti.schmidt2@... writes:
> It sounds like the problem isn't the family bed but a serious lackI think his point was that he didn't even feel affected by it at the time,
> of communication.
>
now looking back he feels he missed time with his wife because they were busy
raising grandchildren.
<With communication and
creativity *everyone* can get their needs met.
You seem to have set up a dichotomy in your mind... it's either
being "consumed with children" or having a happy, healthy marriage
with children kept in their place (away from parents) at night.
There is a lot of middle ground in between that you seem to have
purposefully overlooked.>
I really didn't overlook that but was simply relaying information that I had
just discussed with my FIL. Something from a male perspective, something I
hadn't noticed at all in their marriage, something that now suddenly he looks
back and wishes had been different.
<And
if our son wets our bed- big deal. We do an extra load of laundry
in the morning. It doesn't bother us.>
That's great that it doesn't bother you but to him a six year old that has
had four or five bottles during the night and cuts loose really makes a mess too
uncomfortable for him to sleep in and I can understand his feelings on that.
<Some children would nurse forever I guess.
This is a dangerous and wrong assumption, IMO.>
I don't know how dangerous it is or wrong to make that statement. I don't
think anyone would mistake me thinking a 21 year old would roll home to nurse.
I would like to clarify myself and say that some nurse much longer than others
and at some point there are probably lots of mothers who think it will never
end, but it does end at some point I am sure.
glena who is sorry you were so offended by this post which were not my direct
feelings on anything, just sharing something from a male point of view AFTER
the fact.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jmcseals SEALS
>Some children would nurse forever I guess.**This is a dangerous and wrong assumption, IMO.**
I agree, Patti.
In a situation where extended breastfeeding is harmful to *either* the
mother or child's emotional well-being, it is time to wean. Breastfeeding
should be an enjoyable experience. I know full well that there are hurdles;
sore breasts, infections, TEETH <g> (Chloe bit me for the first time
yesterday...youch!), but overall, you should feel *good* about
breastfeeding. The child will not benefit from a mother's irritation and
resentment. It is better to wean and use other times for bonding and love
sharing, imo.
Jennifer
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Andrea
At 11:14 AM 6/18/03 -0400, Glena wrote:
child-led weaning but now uses natural weaning because it better describes
what goes on. It is a relationship; both people matter.
If you haven't already you may want to check out MOTHERING YOUR NURSING
TODDLER,by Norma Jane Bumgarner; and HOW WEANING HAPPENS, by Diane Bengson.
Both have tips for weaning a toddler, as well as getting past the
difficulties when nursing one.
As far as the family bed goes, I found that having a crib sidecar to our
bed (One long side of the crib removed) made a big difference. Sometimes I
could roll the baby over to the crib and pretend he wasn't there. He would,
of course, come back over by me during the night but I had a short time
with just me and John in the bed, or just me and space! A mattress on the
floor next to your bed might work as well.
I can easily give advice about this now because for the first time in
almost 12 years we have no child in our bed and I am not pregnant!
Donna Andrea, still occasionally nursing an almost-four-year-old
>So I guess it really is up to the mother and child to decide what works bestThis is what I was thinking, Glena. La Leche League used to use the term
>for both of them, not just one or the other.
child-led weaning but now uses natural weaning because it better describes
what goes on. It is a relationship; both people matter.
If you haven't already you may want to check out MOTHERING YOUR NURSING
TODDLER,by Norma Jane Bumgarner; and HOW WEANING HAPPENS, by Diane Bengson.
Both have tips for weaning a toddler, as well as getting past the
difficulties when nursing one.
As far as the family bed goes, I found that having a crib sidecar to our
bed (One long side of the crib removed) made a big difference. Sometimes I
could roll the baby over to the crib and pretend he wasn't there. He would,
of course, come back over by me during the night but I had a short time
with just me and John in the bed, or just me and space! A mattress on the
floor next to your bed might work as well.
I can easily give advice about this now because for the first time in
almost 12 years we have no child in our bed and I am not pregnant!
Donna Andrea, still occasionally nursing an almost-four-year-old
averyschmidt
> I think his point was that he didn't even feel affected by it atthe time,
> now looking back he feels he missed time with his wife becausethey were busy
> raising grandchildren.There would have been time for both had he made it a priority and
talked about it.
> <With communication andthat I had
> creativity *everyone* can get their needs met.
> You seem to have set up a dichotomy in your mind... it's either
> being "consumed with children" or having a happy, healthy marriage
> with children kept in their place (away from parents) at night.
> There is a lot of middle ground in between that you seem to have
> purposefully overlooked.>
>
> I really didn't overlook that but was simply relaying information
> just discussed with my FIL. Something from a male perspective,something I
> hadn't noticed at all in their marriage, something that nowsuddenly he looks
> back and wishes had been different.So then *he* was the one who overlooked any middle ground.
And you're telling his story here for a reason... you seem to be
saying "if you stick with the family bed and don't make it a point
to have your private time without children at night after devoting
yourselves to them all day then one day you might have bitter
regrets like my FIL." Since that might very easily sway someone on
the fence about it *I'm* trying to say that there are other, better
ways than drawing an either/or picture of kids' needs vs. parental
needs.
> That's great that it doesn't bother you but to him a six year oldthat has
> had four or five bottles during the night and cuts loose reallymakes a mess too
> uncomfortable for him to sleep in and I can understand hisfeelings on that.
Personally, I have no experience with a six year old who drinks four
or five bottles a night so I can't comment.
> <Some children would nurse forever I guess.I don't
>
> This is a dangerous and wrong assumption, IMO.>
>
> I don't know how dangerous it is or wrong to make that statement.
> think anyone would mistake me thinking a 21 year old would rollhome to nurse.
> I would like to clarify myself and say that some nurse much longerthan others
> and at some point there are probably lots of mothers who think itwill never
> end, but it does end at some point I am sure.So you're *admitting* that you made a wrong statement right after
you denied it was wrong. Do you see the contradiction in your above
statement? Forever means forever, not "much longer than others."
> glena who is sorry you were so offended by this post which werenot my direct
> feelings on anything, just sharing something from a male point ofview AFTER
> the fact.I'm not offended at all, just responding to what I see as not very
good or accurate advice that you gave.
Patti
Joylyn
jmcseals SEALS wrote:
Weaning, when it's allowed to happen in a natural way, happens.
Sometimes it happens at age four (as with my 2nd) and sometimes at age
6 (as with my 1st). But I have never seen a normal child go to college
still nursing, or still wearing diapers, or still sleeping in a family
bed.
Joylyn
> >Some children would nurse forever I guess.Children don't nurse forever, why would they want to nurse forever.
>
> **This is a dangerous and wrong assumption, IMO.**
>
> I agree, Patti.
Weaning, when it's allowed to happen in a natural way, happens.
Sometimes it happens at age four (as with my 2nd) and sometimes at age
6 (as with my 1st). But I have never seen a normal child go to college
still nursing, or still wearing diapers, or still sleeping in a family
bed.
Joylyn
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> In a situation where extended breastfeeding is harmful to *either* the
> mother or child's emotional well-being, it is time to wean.
> Breastfeeding
> should be an enjoyable experience. I know full well that there are
> hurdles;
> sore breasts, infections, TEETH <g> (Chloe bit me for the first time
> yesterday...youch!), but overall, you should feel *good* about
> breastfeeding. The child will not benefit from a mother's irritation and
> resentment. It is better to wean and use other times for bonding and
> love
> sharing, imo.
>
> Jennifer
>
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the_clevengers
--- In [email protected], Joylyn <joylyn@e...> wrote:
cool thing. It's yet another demonstration that kids really will find
their way to maturity on their own grounds. I wonder why people think
children will nurse forever when children don't do things like crawl
forever. Once a child has passed the *need*, they easily and
gracefully move on.
My 6 y.o. has more or less weaned. It's been a very slow and gradual
process, from my shock 2 years ago when he fell asleep without
nursing for the first time to now when that's the every night norm.
It's been really beautiful to give him this gift of letting go in his
own time. Still, because he's old enough to put his feelings about
nursing into complex language, I've had the privilege of a window
into just how important nursing was to him. The other day he and I
were going back and forth saying "I love you more than...". My last
one was "I love you more than a gigantic ice cream sundae with
Euphoria chocolate sauce and slivered almonds and one of those cherry
things on top." He looked pensive for a minute, trying to top that
one. He finally came out with "I love you more than your own
nummies." The game ended there. It was clearly the biggest and most
important thing he could think of.
My daughter is much less intent on nursing, she seems to need it so
much less than my son ever did. I think for her, weaning will happen
sometime in this next year (she's 3 now). It really does happen in
their own time.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
> Children don't nurse forever, why would they want to nurse forever.age
> Weaning, when it's allowed to happen in a natural way, happens.
> Sometimes it happens at age four (as with my 2nd) and sometimes at
> 6 (as with my 1st). But I have never seen a normal child go tocollege
> still nursing, or still wearing diapers, or still sleeping in afamily
> bed.I agree Joylyn. And watching a child wean naturally is really, really
>
> Joylyn
cool thing. It's yet another demonstration that kids really will find
their way to maturity on their own grounds. I wonder why people think
children will nurse forever when children don't do things like crawl
forever. Once a child has passed the *need*, they easily and
gracefully move on.
My 6 y.o. has more or less weaned. It's been a very slow and gradual
process, from my shock 2 years ago when he fell asleep without
nursing for the first time to now when that's the every night norm.
It's been really beautiful to give him this gift of letting go in his
own time. Still, because he's old enough to put his feelings about
nursing into complex language, I've had the privilege of a window
into just how important nursing was to him. The other day he and I
were going back and forth saying "I love you more than...". My last
one was "I love you more than a gigantic ice cream sundae with
Euphoria chocolate sauce and slivered almonds and one of those cherry
things on top." He looked pensive for a minute, trying to top that
one. He finally came out with "I love you more than your own
nummies." The game ended there. It was clearly the biggest and most
important thing he could think of.
My daughter is much less intent on nursing, she seems to need it so
much less than my son ever did. I think for her, weaning will happen
sometime in this next year (she's 3 now). It really does happen in
their own time.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
[email protected]
On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 22:56:17 -0700 Joylyn <joylyn@...> writes:
college when she's 12, so you may see it.
No, wait, she's not normal, she keeps telling me that. She's *weird*.
Never mind...
Dar
>But I have never seen a normal child go toWell, Rain is 10 and sleeps with me and says she wants to start going to
> college
> still nursing, or still wearing diapers, or still sleeping in a
> family
> bed.
college when she's 12, so you may see it.
No, wait, she's not normal, she keeps telling me that. She's *weird*.
Never mind...
Dar