[email protected]

In a message dated 6/16/2003 7:37:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
> And, introduce them to some people, as well. This was a bad spot for
> me as a kid. Well, even as an adult, I've had my mother say "You
> didn't introduce me to so and so"(after so and so leaves) and me
> going "Duh" You see, I'm not the Paragon of Social Graces, meself.
> Especially the meeting and greeting. It doesn't come naturally to me,
> though I do have a nagging suspicion that there *is* something proper
> to do in Standing Around After A Big Life Event type social gatherings.

So the "role model" is lacking.

If you don't know social cues, it's hard to model. And it's harder for a
child to pick it up.

If I ate without utensils from a trough, my children would surely follow
suit. (Natural learning and all! <g>) But if I model utensils and the best manners
I know, my boys will pick it up "through osmosis". Really. They may have a
few questions about things that aren't common here---but then they can ask. But
we entertain A LOT, so they're used to parties and dinner parties. I'm sure
they're more used to being hosts than guests, but.... they also get to see how
guests behave. So they're modeling the "guest behavior" of those other than
their parents.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

> So the "role model" is lacking.> If you don't know social cues,
it's hard to model. And it's harder for a
> child to pick it up.
>


Perhaps the role model for introductions, but not the role model for
saying thank you to compliments, nor the role model for looking at
the person I'm speaking to, nor the role model for shaking hands and
congratulating the Honoree. Introductions? I'm pretty clueless (which
also gives me some empathy for my son's cluelessness...because I have
my moments, too) But simple, polite give-and-take? THAT, I do okay
with. My 15 yo and my 8 yo girls do this well, too. But the boys? LOL
urg.

BTW, as a little girl, I was forced to introduce my friends, even
though I felt stupid and foolish and awkward doing so. It didn't help
me "know" to do it. But then again, my mom and I never had a Faux Pas
Party to "practice" such things. Hmmm, I also saw my mother modeling
this proper social behavior ALL the time: at church, at receptions,
parties, social gatherings of all kinds. And I never learned it. She
introduced me to many people, and I never picked up on it.

What about that? Why would the consistently modeled, outgoing and
socially adept "style" of a mother, not get picked up by the child?
My dad is much more introverted than my mom...and I take after him
more than I do my mom, in more than just social style. For instance,
clutter gets on my nerves, which is more like my dad than my mom. So,
some of my son's Social Cluelessness may just be that he has parents
that lean that way.

But that doesn't mean he shouldn't know about polite give-and-take.



> If I ate without utensils from a trough, my children would surely
follow
> suit. (Natural learning and all! <g>) But if I model utensils and
the best manners
> I know, my boys will pick it up "through osmosis". Really.

Okay, and because my dad ALSO uses utensils...even though I take
after him Introversion-wise...IOW, I learned "through osmosis" what
both parents were modeling. But I take after my retreating dad not my
outgoing mom, and so in social interactions I retain some
cluelessness.

hmmm

HeidiC

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/16/03 7:10:25 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< As conference coordinator---for one weekend---I'll be the "ranking guy".
But
I will defer to my illustrious speakers, who (I feel) out-rank me. >>

That's the "honored guest" status.
As a speaker, though, I wouldn't want to do anything the coordinator/hostess
did NOT want me to do, because it's her "house," and I'm a guest.

When I was thinking about the relative rank, I had a picture of the pope in a
traffic accident, and EMTs have come. If I'm there and I'm mobile and
involved, do I introduce the EMT to the Pope? <g> Depends if the Pope's conscious.
EMTs tend to introduce themselves. And should I identify the unconcious Pope
for them? I think they'll figure it out 'cause he dresses distinctively.

All these things are "it depends," and all these things involve the intent
and purpose of the person making the decisions too. Sometimes people WANT to
make a social point by breaking the rules. Sometimes that works out well for
them. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes "working out well" means they get fired,
arrested, or make the paper as a troublemaker.



Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/16/03 9:20:12 AM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

<< What about that? Why would the consistently modeled, outgoing and

socially adept "style" of a mother, not get picked up by the child? >>

I think this is evidence of Gardner's Multiple Intelligences model.

Someone (here? on on the forum, I think--not here) wrote yesterday or so
that kids who aren't good at social interactions (might have been in an
Asperger's discussion) could learn them the way the rest of us learn to play piano.
(NOT a quote, and might even miss essence.)


I thought WHAT!? Some people walk up to a piano and figure it out and just
play songs. Others, with lessons for years, can't do anything EXCEPT follow
the dots on the paper, with no musicality, no feel for it, purely mechanical.

And while pure mechanics is better than nothing, it's not how everyone learns
manners or piano.

If someone's not big in the interpersonal, intrapersonal, they're not going
to be paying attention to how their mom introduces people. Those who ARE will
notice who she addresses first, and what kind of information she offers.

Someone who's not very musically talented can be in a house full of music,
musicians, live music and lessons all around them and STILL never harmonize by
ear.

I was reading about Martha Stewart this morning, when I first woke up, and TV
was previewing something about Jack LaLanne.

I thought WOW!!!
And I don't want to say what all I next thought. <g>

Martha Stewart can't teach people how to be her. She can show them her
thought processes and sell them some pillow cases and mixing bowls, but if they
don't have the talent already, it won't really help. (Those are talents I don't
have, so I know.)

Jack LaLanne is a happy freak of nature who could have been a circus
strongman if television hadn't given him a medium and an outlet. YES people can do
those exercises and eat right, but they can't be Jack LaLanne, not a single one
of them. Most of what he has is genetics, physical and tempermental both.

But this is interesting: An interview in "What is Enlightenment?" magazine:

Although an interview with Jack LaLanne about enlightenment and its
relationship to self-mastery may seem incongruous to some, the remarkable thing about
this extraordinary man is that he may indeed embody many of the unusual
qualities of those throughout history who are presumed to have been enlightened.
Although he had no concept of what is usually meant by the word "enlightenment,"
and always reduced the solution to every human problem to his perennial
prescription of diet and exercise, his ferocious and unwavering single-pointedness of
mind seems to have produced in him that one human quality that speaks louder
than a thousand wordsjoy! A true yogi in the classical sense of the word, Jack
LaLanne might have impressed even Patanjali as a rare example of
concentration, self-discipline, and integrity. Renunciation and self-control, the pillars
of any real practice of yoga, are Jack's intimate friends, and while he
appeared to be at a loss whenever asked about spiritual depth, lightness of being
seems to be his natural state. So, is Jack LaLanne enlightened?"

http://www.wie.org/j20/lalanneintro.asp
<A HREF="http://www.wie.org/j20/lalanneintro.asp">Issue 20 - What Is
Enlightenment? Magazine</A>
--------

That all says something about unschooling, but I don't want to think about
what it says.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/16/03 12:25:37 PM, KathrynJB@... writes:

<< No, dear...you are our slave. Remember you didn't even intend to do
another
conference? And you did anyway? Remember all the work you're doing?

<<WHo outranks whom? >>

Here's a way to determine that.
Who could pull the plug between now and lunch?

Who takes the loss if it fails?

<g>

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/16/03 10:03:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> Sometimes people WANT to
> make a social point by breaking the rules. Sometimes that works out well
> for
> them. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes "working out well" means they get
> fired,
> arrested, or make the paper as a troublemaker.
>

Uh-Oh, sounds like me. hehehe. But I don't know that I have INTENDED to break
rules or if they just don't fit me so I sub-consciously disregard them. Boy
oh boy, do I have a lot to reflect about myself today.

Rhonda - the social iconoclast, who, BTW, has never been fired, arrested or
in the paper.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/16/2003 2:25:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
KathrynJB@... writes:
No, dear...you are our slave. Remember you didn't even intend to do another
> conference? And you did anyway? Remember all the work you're doing?
>
> WHo outranks whom?

<G> Maybe. But after I signed on.....

What *I* say goes! :-P~~~~~~

Remember, Kathryn: IT'S GREAT TO BE QUEEN!
Do what you want, they'll come! <g>

~Kelly----and BRENDA is the slave! Get it RIGHT, woman!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/16/2003 2:35:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> << No, dear...you are our slave. Remember you didn't even intend to do
> another
> conference? And you did anyway? Remember all the work you're doing?
>
> <<WHo outranks whom? >>
>
> Here's a way to determine that.
> Who could pull the plug between now and lunch?
>
> Who takes the loss if it fails?
>
> <g>
>

SEEEEeeeeeeeeeee??????? <G>

I AM queen.

Bow peasants!

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/16/2003 2:48:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
RJHill241@... writes:
> Rhonda - the social iconoclast, who, BTW, has never been fired, arrested or
>
> in the paper.
>

AH! All three!

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/16/03 9:20:12 AM, bunsofaluminum60@h... writes:
>
> << What about that? Why would the consistently modeled, outgoing
and
>
> socially adept "style" of a mother, not get picked up by the
child? >>
>
> I think this is evidence of Gardner's Multiple Intelligences model.
>
> Someone (here? on on the forum, I think--not here) wrote yesterday
or so
> that kids who aren't good at social interactions (might have been
in an
> Asperger's discussion) could learn them the way the rest of us
learn to play piano.
> (NOT a quote, and might even miss essence.)

It was here, and I think you did get the essence. But couldn't you
say a person could be trained to correct responses in social
interactions, even if they never did "get it"? ie show a real talent
for it?


> I thought WHAT!? Some people walk up to a piano and figure it out
and just
> play songs. Others, with lessons for years, can't do anything
EXCEPT follow
> the dots on the paper, with no musicality, no feel for it, purely
mechanical.
> And while pure mechanics is better than nothing, it's not how
everyone learns
> manners or piano.
>

Okay, pure mechanics! My oldest child, a son, would be the one who
walks up to The Piano of Social Interaction and just starts playing.
A natural, so to speak, with charm, looks, grace, wit. Everything for
a very good First Impression. And where DID he get it, for his dad
(my ex) isn't a super dooper socializer, either.

so, what to do? Some of my kids are adept at social interactions;
some are not. Is it intruding on who "they" are, to remind them to
look at people when they talk to you? Or say "thanks" when given a
compliment? I'm thinking, some rudiments of manners is not out of
order. If someone with no music in em doesn't learn to play piano, it
isn't going to do him any harm in life. But someone with low social
ability could be hampered. I think. The scientist someone
mentioned ... hmm.

I'm also having some thoughts about the rest of the post (Jack
LaLanne) but not ready to do anything with them, yet.

HeidiC

Alan & Brenda Leonard

> If we were to do something like a Faux Pas Party, we would HAVE to
> have a president over, as well as The Queen. A Quaker (or, what sect
> is it that won't remove their hats?) meets The Queen!

I don't mean to be a party-pooper, but I have to ask this: Are your kids
interested in this, are they putting in some of these ideas, or is this more
along the lines of the good teacher coming up with a really interesting way
to teach something?

I had a handful of good teachers in school. They managed to make lessons
fun, funny, interesting, challenging, etc. But the bottom line is that
these were things someone *else* decided that should be learned that day.

I don't unschool so that I can come up with cute, fun lessons. I unschool
so that I can try my hardest to let my son learn what he is interested in,
when he wants to learn it. Yeah, sometimes I fall into wanting to teach him
stuff because *I* think he needs to learn it right now. It's never as fun,
funny, or well learned that way, though.

brenda

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/16/03 1:16:13 PM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

<< It was here, and I think you did get the essence. But couldn't you

say a person could be trained to correct responses in social

interactions, even if they never did "get it"? ie show a real talent

for it?

>>

Yes.
But not all pianists learned the same way.

Yes, an internal set of options and canned speeches can be developed within a
child. Not inserted by someone else, but developed by him if he wants to
learn them.

<< Is it intruding on who "they" are, to remind them to

look at people when they talk to you? Or say "thanks" when given a

compliment? I'm thinking, some rudiments of manners is not out of

order.>>

I agree.

<< If someone with no music in em doesn't learn to play piano, it

isn't going to do him any harm in life. But someone with low social

ability could be hampered. I think. >>

True. Piano playing isn't required to get a job or seal a deal, but knowing
how and when to shake hands IS pretty important.

Sandra

[email protected]

I have to remind myself alllll the time that children must solve their own frustrations and I have to help, maybe, but mostly accept their solutions (within a broad interpretation of "reasonable" behavior).

In this case, what if your ds decided never to be social. He would sometimes be frustrated. For example, let's say he lived with the "shortcoming" until he was 21. Then got so frustrated that it was unbearable. THEN he is open to "how to shake hands" or "how to play nice." At least then he knows that Mom is there to be his first source of contact for that learning (not some mal-adjusted post-teen like the ones I relied on 'cause Mom and Dad we dictators and I wasn't going there!).

I think it's healthy to go with "just-in-time worrying."

My (remind-yourself over and over, Mr. T) thots
Tim T


>In a message dated 6/16/03 1:16:13 PM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

<< It was here, and I think you did get the essence. But couldn't you

say a person could be trained to correct responses in social

interactions, even if they never did "get it"? ie show a real talent

for it?

>>

Yes.
But not all pianists learned the same way.

Yes, an internal set of options and canned speeches can be developed within a
child. Not inserted by someone else, but developed by him if he wants to
learn them.

<< Is it intruding on who "they" are, to remind them to

look at people when they talk to you? Or say "thanks" when given a

compliment? I'm thinking, some rudiments of manners is not out of

order.>>

I agree.

<< If someone with no music in em doesn't learn to play piano, it

isn't going to do him any harm in life. But someone with low social

ability could be hampered. I think. >>

True. Piano playing isn't required to get a job or seal a deal, but knowing
how and when to shake hands IS pretty important.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

--- In [email protected], Alan & Brenda Leonard
<abtleo@e...> wrote:
> > If we were to do something like a Faux Pas Party, we would HAVE to
> > have a president over, as well as The Queen. A Quaker (or, what
sect
> > is it that won't remove their hats?) meets The Queen!
>
> I don't mean to be a party-pooper, but I have to ask this: Are
your kids
> interested in this, are they putting in some of these ideas, or is
this more
> along the lines of the good teacher coming up with a really
interesting way
> to teach something?

I haven't brought this idea up with the kids as yet. We've been busy
with other things. But, if we do go for it, my plan was to ask them
if they wanted to throw a Faux Pas Party. Not just plan it and lay it
on them, but see if they'd be interested.

HeidiC

Heidi

--- In [email protected], tmthomas@s... wrote:
> I have to remind myself alllll the time that children must solve
their own frustrations and I have to help, maybe, but mostly accept
their solutions (within a broad interpretation of "reasonable"
behavior).
>
> In this case, what if your ds decided never to be social. He would
sometimes be frustrated. For example, let's say he lived with
the "shortcoming" until he was 21. Then got so frustrated that it was
unbearable. THEN he is open to "how to shake hands" or "how to play
nice." At least then he knows that Mom is there to be his first
source of contact for that learning (not some mal-adjusted post-teen
like the ones I relied on 'cause Mom and Dad we dictators and I
wasn't going there!).

Hi Tim thanks for your "thots" :)

I've been thinking, too, ever since posting that bit about my
charming, socially intelligent oldest boy. My oldest boy is
connected; my youngest boy is not, as much. It isn't about Robby
being rude. It's about his being an introvert and not coming
naturally to social niceties. It's still something that would stand
him in good stead, to know some of these things. But I also think he
might be "reading" my friend more than I realize. At gramma's, there
could be an element of "tut-tut, isn't he going to say hello even?"
which could also bring about the retreat mode...hmmm.

He isn't just automatically charming, and so my friend isn't charmed,
and that comes across, even though she has never said so to him.
Never been anything but polite and kind to him, gave him a big,
cheerful hug and lots of encouragement about his running when we were
there, but...if she is translating his awkwardness to rudeness, and
he's picking that up, it might just prove to be a situation that
causes him to shut down, thus exacerbating the awkwardness.


> I think it's healthy to go with "just-in-time worrying."

...you mean...what DO you mean? that old Mary Poppins song? "Kick
your heels up, just in time" LOL ;) (which is how I used to sing it
as a kid)

> My (remind-yourself over and over, Mr. T) thots
> Tim T


thanks again!

HeidiC