The Clifton's

I have a 10 yr old daughter (Caitlin) and an 8 yr old son (Kyle). We moved into this house mid-February and right from the beginning my kids knew who the bully was on the street. The other kids had warned my kids. The bully is named Elliot and he will be 13 next month. This kid is a walking hormone also. The first time I saw the intimidation going on I jumped in the middle of it and stopped it. But my husband said he thought Kyle was handling it and I shouldn't have intervened. So we had a talk with Kyle and he said he didn't want me to interfere anymore. So I have been respecting that request ever since. One of the things that has been bothering me though is that Elliot will tease, push, hit and take away toys from Kyle with me standing outside watching it all happen. I find this to be very disrespectful but Elliot does whatever he wants in front of whoever. Just to be clear, Kyle does know that if asks me for help I will help in heartbeat. It seems that this has come to a head for me today. Kyle was letting one of the other boys (Elliot's 10 yr old brother) play with one of his toy guns and Elliot took it away. Kyle asked for it back several times and was getting frustrated. I said to Elliot " Kyle asked for his gun back, will you please give it back to him?" Elliot acted like he was going to give it back then switched it to his other hand to tease Kyle. He got in Kyle's face and said something to him. He then gave the gun back and pushed Kyle so Kyle hit him back. Elliot punched Kyle in the arm pretty hard and walked away. Kyle started saying "I'm not a baby" and then started yelling "I'm not a baby"(evidently that is what Elliot had said to Kyle). Meanwhile, Elliot was across the street still mouthing "baby" at Kyle. Kyle got so angry and was loosing control of himself. He was screaming "I'm not a baby" and then began to cry. I think sometimes Kyle scares himself when he gets past his boiling point so to speak. The teasing didn't stop. Elliot continued to mouth stuff at Kyle from across the street until Kyle went into the house.

Just for background info, Elliot chases Caitlin around and won't quit when she tells him to. He pushes her and is way too rough with her and another girl on the street. He kisses at her. He asks for a hug all the time. She says she hates him and doesn't want to be around him. She tries to ignore him when all the kids are outside playing. Elliot picks on Kyle everyday that they are all outside playing. Kyle is afraid of Elliot. Kyle and I have talked about this situation many times. Kyle feels more confident when I am outside and he will defend himself more. But that only causes Elliot to hit Kyle harder or push him down.

After discussing this all tonight, Kyle says that he wants me to intervene now. So I'm wondering how I should handle it? I don't want whatever I do to cause Elliot to then sneak behind everyone's back to bully my son. Maybe that is inevitable, I don't know.

Thanks in advance!
Dina


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[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/03 9:51:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
rpclif14@... writes:

> After discussing this all tonight, Kyle says that he wants me to intervene
> now. So I'm wondering how I should handle it? I don't want whatever I do to
> cause Elliot to then sneak behind everyone's back to bully my son. Maybe that
> is inevitable, I don't know.
>
>

You have quite a situation on your hands. Since one child says she can't
stand this boy and doesn't want him around and your son has asked for help and
seems to be distressed about the situation I think, if it were me, I would tell
the boy that he is not welcome at my house or in my yard if he is going to act
that way. Your children are being physically and emotionally hurt by this
older boy that they have no interest in playing with. I would not even want him
around. I wouldn't try to change his behavior. He isn't a friend of your
children, he is a nuisance. If he kept coming over hitting my children I would
go to his parents/sitter or whoever he is staying with and tell them to keep
their child away from your house and I would explain why.

It is good that your children can come to you to talk about things and know
that you will help.
Pam G.


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[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/03 7:51:45 AM, rpclif14@... writes:

<< After discussing this all tonight, Kyle says that he wants me to intervene
now. So I'm wondering how I should handle it? I don't want whatever I do to
cause Elliot to then sneak behind everyone's back to bully my son. Maybe that
is inevitable, I don't know. >>

Have you talked to the boy's parents?

I would respect my child's request about intervening in cases where I wan't
present, but as to what happens right in front of me, that is MY business, and
I wouldn't have let things go where I could see it. I think that's enabling
the bully entirely. Largely because of school, I think, kids have a theory
among them that if a teacher sees you do something and then does nothing, that
what you did was acceptable. They'll extend that to parents, too.

Yes, he might he be sneaky and still be mean, but that's a step up from doing
it right in front of you.

I would call and make arrangements to talk to a police officer for advice on
what to do, and to register a formal complaint. They could advise on
peacekeeping strategies, and on what the laws are about assault among kids. I
wouldn't call them to come out, but IF you did in the future it might help to say "We
called you in June 2003 for advice, and we took that advice."

If it were me (being me the way I am) I would probably summarize that in
writing to the parents, and send a copy (and clearly mark that on the letter) to
the nearest police station and ask them to keep it on file. Whether they did
or not might not even matter if YOU keep copies to have in hand for future
incidents.

The letter would be potentially useful if the kid took retribution by messing
with anything in your yard or house. It would be a motive to point to if he
did any damage. In a way it would be a magical circle that the neighbors
would be responsible for maintaining around your family and stuff too.

I'm not explaining this clearly.

We have neighbors behind us and to the corner that my kids really don't like.
I'm glad we're not facing on. If those kids are in the park, my kids
usually make other plans. They just do the regular pushy comment, ball snatching
stuff, but my kids don't have the school experience to KNOW it's "normal." If
they ever do it in front of me, though, I'll walk them home and talk to the
parents.

Sandra

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/2003 9:24:22 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
> After discussing this all tonight, Kyle says that he wants me to intervene
> now. So I'm wondering how I should handle it? I don't want whatever I do to
> cause Elliot to then sneak behind everyone's back to bully my son. Maybe that
> is inevitable, I don't know.

When it comes to this kind of blantant BULLshit, I would go straight to the
parents and if they weren't helpful, I would be all over that kid like stink on
a dog!!
He would not EVER be welcome on my property if he was not willing to be kind.

I would threaten to call the police if the bullying didn't stop. He's WAY
over the line in my opinion.

Ren


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[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/2003 9:51:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rpclif14@... writes:
> After discussing this all tonight, Kyle says that he wants me to intervene
> now. So I'm wondering how I should handle it? I don't want whatever I do to
> cause Elliot to then sneak behind everyone's back to bully my son. Maybe that
> is inevitable, I don't know.

Thanks in advance!
Dina >>>>>>
I think it is inevitable. If it was me I would speak to the parents. I would
certinally if it continues tell them that you are going to contact the police.


The boy is 13 it's only a couple years but there is a big difference in age.
As for the wanting to hug and kissing I would bring that up to the parents
also. I would make sure this boy is no where near your kids ever.
It does sound like he is way over the top. To tease your child right in front
of you is ball-zy and unacceptable. I would go right over or wait until he
does it again and walk right ahead of him to the parents. I do worry when we
have had situations like that if the child will get a spanking. Seems when I have
had to deal with kids like that I found that I regretted telling after I herd
the slaps walking away...I hope that's not what happens but it does need to
stop.

Laura D



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Mary

From: "The Clifton's" <rpclif14@...>

<<After discussing this all tonight, Kyle says that he wants me to intervene
now. So I'm wondering how I should handle it? I don't want whatever I do to
cause Elliot to then sneak behind everyone's back to bully my son. Maybe
that is inevitable, I don't know.>>



First of all I want to say that I have stayed out of situations that my kids
told me they could handle. BUT, not when I was seeing it myself. When I'm
there and I see something going on not tomy liking, I have stepped in. No
one is messing with my kids like that in a bad way.

So I'm thinking what I might do. Thankfully I have never been in this
postion. I know I would definitely not allow this bully in my house or on my
property. I would try and get the kids with the other children they like,
into the house or on the property where they could enjoy each other and play
without fear. I would try and speak to the parents. Somehow I have a feeling
already that won't go anywhere. I may be wrong. But I would try. I would
also let this bully know I was watching him. I would let him know I wasnt'
going to allow him to hurt my kids anymore. If this all somehow wasn't going
anywhere, I would contact the police. Not sure what exactly they can do, but
I would certainly ask for help.


Mary B

Deborah Lewis

***After discussing this all tonight, Kyle says that he wants me to
intervene now. So I'm wondering how I should handle it?***

We had a boy like that in our neighborhood. All the parents warned us
about him when he moved in across the street. They knew him from school.


When I saw the bullying for myself I told him he was only welcome to be
in our yard (on our stuff) and near Dylan if he could be nice. I
defined nice for him in case he didn't have a good definition, and he
didn't.

What I later found out about his family was that he hadn't lived with is
parents much, but had been shipped around to different relatives, mainly
grandparents. He was in special ed classes at school and knew the
teachers didn't like him. His mother was terrible to him and would lock
him out of the house after school so he "wouldn't eat everything". She
yelled a lot and called him stupid. Maybe the parents hit, I never saw,
but I wouldn't be surprised.

There was BAD family business at their house in April. The parents were
fighting a lot and twice the younger boy came running to our house saying
they were trying to kill each other. One night he came over and said
his mom was bleeding. She had gone into the bathroom and come out with
a razor blade and slit her wrists in front of her family. Her kids are
seven and twelve.

The kids have been sent to live with the grandparents again.

This ramble was meant to warn you that the reason the kid is a bully
might be the parents. It may do you no good to talk with them.

Try to talk to Elliot. Tell him you're sorry if people have been mean
to him but you won't let him be mean to your kids. That's it. And tell
him what you'll do if he is. Tell him you'll call the police. Talk
with other parents on your street and form an alliance. Let him know
every adult will be watching him and if he's mean to kids you'll find out
and take action. You don't have to be menacing, just explain how it's
going to be and that he has the power to make it a nice, fun summer or a
yucky one.
That he does things right in front of you seems like action to get adult
attention to me. He's probably starved. If talking with him seems to
slow down or stop the bullying, and you'll maybe have to talk to him
every day, then try demonstrating kindness to him. It might help. He
might not be getting any at home.

You have to keep your kids safe. He won't stop if he thinks no one cares
or no one WILL stop him. Make sure he knows you will.
This worked for us with our bully. I actually liked the poor kid and
I'm sorry he was shipped away.

I'm sad for you because it can be really painful getting a glimpse into
the life of a desperate kid like this.

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/03 10:43:46 AM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< Try to talk to Elliot. Tell him you're sorry if people have been mean
to him but you won't let him be mean to your kids. That's it. And tell
him what you'll do if he is. Tell him you'll call the police. >>

That's better, if you suspect the parents are mean or crazy.
Talking directly to him could work, potentially, if he's susceptible to
attention or reason or threat.

<<That he does things right in front of you seems like action to get adult
attention to me. He's probably starved. If talking with him seems to
slow down or stop the bullying, and you'll maybe have to talk to him
every day, then try demonstrating kindness to him. It might help. He
might not be getting any at home. >>

Sounds true of some kids I've known. I know one guy (now in his 30s) who
gets meaner with more attention. It's bizarre.

<<He won't stop if he thinks no one cares
or no one WILL stop him. >>

Deb L is some kind of genius.
Her suggestions are way better than mine, but I'd still put something in
writing for future insurance and record.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/2003 12:55:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Deb L is some kind of genius.
>
>

Isn't she though?

Brilliant!

~Kelly


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[email protected]

I am FUMING on this one! I would make it a point to be near my child and
PHYSICALLY intervene if this bully threathened to physically harm my child (even
an unwanted touch). I certainly hope that your daughter is not being coerced
into actually giving that boy hugs! I would have taken the toy from the bully
without a word but with tangible attitude. I would then have told the bully
to stay away from my kids, and my yard. If need be, I would also call the
police and make a report. I understand that children need to learn to deal with
the world... but we don't throw a child just learning to swim into a raging
river. I have absolutely no respect for bullies (this kid sounds like a full
blown tyrant) and don't feel that it is my job to reform them. My job is to
raise my child in a safe environment.

Now that the immediate situation is over and the above is water under the
bridge, I would tell my children that they are not allowed to even speak with
this boy. Not because my kids are "not allowed", but because I can't really tell
someone elses kid what they can or can't do, but I can tell my kids that they
have a "rule" (what a novelty in my home... and amazing how well they "like"
rules that are "for" them). The next time the kid comes by, have your kids
tell the bully that they are not allowed to play with him. And when the bully
comes and tries to stay anyway (gee, has this actually happened to me?...
ummm... yes...), I would (already being the protective mother bear and seeing it
as it happens) tell the kid to get lost myself. If he refuses, I would ask
the kid for his phone number and tell him I am calling his parents to come get
him, or tell him I will call the police to have him removed from my property.
If he still stays, I would then proceed to call his parents and/or the police.
(I actually walked across the street and told the kids mom that my child is
not allowed to play with her kids and to please make sure they stay out of my
yard ... the parents are actually nice enough people).

I also feel that tho your kids may feel somewhat embarrassed by being
"protected", I am rather certain that most (if not all) of the other victims will be
silently (if not shouting it right outloud) applauding and rooting for you and
your kids. In addition, I think that once you put your foot down and make it
clear that you will not tolerate your children being bullied, it will
diminish, tho perhaps not disappear entirely. I would tell my child to simply ignore
whatever is said... what kind of credibilty does one accord a bully anyway?
I would also convey to my child that it is more than ok for a parent to
protect a child... in my opinion, thats part of what we're here for! I would also
let my child know that this bully has his own issues and that he is using
calling my child a "baby" as a tool to empower himself. Thus keeping my child in
the position of being a victim rather than calling for (or just accepting) the
help my child needs to defend himself. I would also make it clear that my
child is, in fact, not a "baby", that sometimes third parties need to step in to
halt abuse. (extreme example - would you let someone, regardless of age, wave
a gun around at an adult without calling the police? Would that adult then be
a baby because help was called in and used?).

just my two cents based on my personal experience...
(use what you can, disregard the rest..)
other experiences may vary <g>
all the best...
Aniko
(INFP for those running the tally <g>)

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/03 12:17:22 PM, anikoca@... writes:

<< I would also
let my child know that this bully has his own issues and that he is using
calling my child a "baby" as a tool to empower himself. >>

That information can be conveyed in a compassionate way.

If the dealings are overkill, that's just counter-bullying.

I've seen that in families used to moving around a lot, but I'm NOT used to
moving, and there's a difference in how people need to act if then intend to be
in a neighborhood for twenty or forty years.

<<I would also make it clear that my child is, in fact, not a "baby", that
sometimes third parties need to step in to halt abuse.>>

You can state something and it still won't be made clear.
He didn't THINK she was a baby, he said it for meanness.

I agree about the stepping in to halt abuse.

<<(INFP for those running the tally <g>)>>

You're going to be able to stand down a bully with that introversion thang
going?

Marty just got back from the park. Bully kids were there and there were
non-verbal incidents. This could turn into a visit to the parents. I would take
my husband. This is a physical family.

Sandra

zenmomma2kids

>> I'm sad for you because it can be really painful getting a glimpse
into the life of a desperate kid like this.>>

Deb your whole post was so compassionate and yet practical and no
nonsense. I'm not in this kind of a situation right now, but I will
keep your words in mind if it ever comes up. That little boy was
lucky to have known you were in his corner if even for only a short
while.

Life is good.
~Mary

Alan & Brenda Leonard

6/10/03 21:51:

> You're going to be able to stand down a bully with that introversion thang
> going?

I know that you're kidding here. But just for the record, I'm an introvert.
I'm also outspoken, and can be forceful and witchy when necessary. I've
been accused of being other things, too, but I'll quit there.

My understanding is that Introverts draw their strength from within and need
quiet time to "recharge". Extroverts draw their strength from people and
need people around to keep from going nutty.

My husband is quiet, soft-spoken, and a good listener. You'd never notice
him in a crowd of people. But he'll spend hour after hour after hour
talking to people about their problems, listening to extended discussions,
looking for people to talk to. He was absolutely lost during the three
months he spent at home when Tim was 2 and I was working. You can find me
in a crowd easily, but only if I'm there. I don't last long in large
groups.

brenda

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/2003 12:43:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:

> Try to talk to Elliot. Tell him you're sorry if people have been mean
> to him but you won't let him be mean to your kids. That's it. And tell
> him what you'll do if he is. Tell him you'll call the police. Talk
> with other parents on your street and form an alliance. Let him know
> every adult will be watching him and if he's mean to kids you'll find out
> and take action. You don't have to be menacing, just explain how it's
> going to be and that he has the power to make it a nice, fun summer or a
> yucky one.
> That he does things right in front of you seems like action to get adult
> attention to me. He's probably starved. If talking with him seems to
> slow down or stop the bullying, and you'll maybe have to talk to him
> every day, then try demonstrating kindness to him. It might help. He
> might not be getting any at home.
>
Deb, this is great advice. I would bet too, that talking to his parents
won't do any good, and may make things worse. Still, I feel the parents still
need to be warned in some or another, of the problems. Sounds corny, but I would
suggest doing something like taking a loaf of homemade bread over, or a batch
of cookies, introducing yourself, trying to at least appear friendly. Let
the kid see you really do care and you're not like everyone else that will just
rant and rave to his parents about what he's doing...

I like the idea of letting the kid know, in a very nice way, that you see he
is hurting or that there may be some problems in his life, but that taking it
out on younger kids won't help. Let him know you care enough to CALL the
police should you see him endangering himself or another kid. Don't want him to
end up in trouble and you will intervene if you see him begin to go too far.

And the best part, giving him a choice...really cool, fun summer or a really
miserable yucky one. All up to him, his choice. This has worked wonders with
our adoptive son who was totally out of control when we got him. Kids who
are abused or neglected feel the need to control others. Letting him decide how
his summer will end up puts the ball in his court...he can blame no one
should he screw up.

Nancy




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[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/2003 12:55:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> Deb L is some kind of genius.
> Her suggestions are way better than mine, but I'd still put something in
> writing for future insurance and record.
>
> Sandra
>

I agree Sandra. When I worked for the PD in CA, you could write out an
incident report....you can even go to the station and do it. It started with
Domestic Violence incidents where the police would go out, no one would want to
press charges, but the police themselves wanted a record that "such and such"
happened at this address on this date. Then if something major happens, and the
abuser says, "It's the first time anything like this has ever happened!" they
can refer back to that address or name on the computer and all the past
incidents, no matter how small, will pop back up.

Nancy


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Deborah Lewis

>>Deb L is some kind of genius.

Well, now I'm blushing.
You may be shocked to learn this is the first I've heard of it. <g>

I wish I'd known earlier... before I left my shoes out in the rain,
forgot my yoga class this afternoon and mailed the satellite TV bill to
the telephone company.

But thank you for the nice words, anyway.

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/03 3:53:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <Sandra> writes:

<< <>

You can state something and it still won't be made clear. He didn't THINK
she was a baby, he said it for meanness.>>
Good point.

<< <<(INFP for those running the tally <g>)>>

You're going to be able to stand down a bully with that introversion thang
going?>>
LOL.... I'm on digest... now 100+ posts later, that question has been
answered! Us introverts are quite capable of standing our ground... not that I (we?)
typically do. But for my son? Absolutely. (Rightous indignation and all ya
know.......)

<<Marty just got back from the park. Bully kids were there and there were
non-verbal incidents. This could turn into a visit to the parents. I would
take my husband. This is a physical family.>>
I'd even consider the police.... not only do you have the added safety, but
they'd know you are serious.

Aniko

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/03 6:51:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rpclif14@... writes:

> Just for background info, Elliot chases Caitlin around and won't quit when
> she tells him to. He pushes her and is way too rough with her and another
> girl on the street. He kisses at her. He asks for a hug all the time. She says
> she hates him and doesn't want to be around him. She tries to ignore him when
> all the kids are outside playing. Elliot picks on Kyle everyday that they are
> all outside playing. Kyle is afraid of Elliot. Kyle and I have talked about
> this situation many times. Kyle feels more confident when I am outside and he
> will defend himself more. But that only causes Elliot to hit Kyle harder or
> push him down.
>
>

OMG Dina!!

Sorry to be getting to this post so late, but I was ready to puke reading
this. (Put aside that I am able to puke pretty readily all the time, LOL) This
kind of thing is not what I would classify as typical school type behavior, by
any means. Sure boys of that age tease girls, but to be bold enough to touch
her when she has told him to back off? And to do any of these things in front of
you? Sorry but they'd be scraping his a$$ off the pavement if it involved one
of my daughters. And that would be after I was done with him. I don't even
want to contemplate what my DH would to to him and his parents.

Of course my first feeling when talking about the gun part with Kyle is that
perhaps Elliott just craves attention and doesn't care how or who he gets it
from as long as he gets it, but when the touching your daughter inappropriately
and then actually hitting your son? All feeling went out the window for this
future criminal. I wouldn't start with the parents though. I'd start with
him. Lay it all on the line. Tell Elliott you have already contacted the police
dept and they are aware of his behavior and will not hesitate to haul his butt
in if he touches any other kid on the block. I say that because he will be on
guard then that you are not only looking out for your kids, but for the
neighborhood as a whole. Then I'd tell him he should warn his parents about my
discussion with the police, so that should he screw up, they won't be shocked at
his arrest. And if his parents have issue with what I've done, they can feel
free to come chat about it. Chances are he won't tell them and even if he did,
they wont seek you out. If they should seek you out, by all means do it on your
territory, not theirs. That way when the conversation is over for you, you can
shut your door.

Bullies suck, but allowing someone to bully makes everyone involved losers.
Victims of bullies usually stay victims, bullies depend and crave the power
they get from bullying and anyone who allows it to happen, is helping to create
an unsafe world for us all. I don't think that's what you are doing Dina, I
believe you really want to do whats best for everyone involved, but there are
times we can't save everyone, but we should always try to save our own.

Good luck,

Rhonda - who is in the middle of a great female Celtic Warrior book right
now, can ya tell?


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[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/2003 3:56:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
RJHill241@... writes:

> Lay it all on the line. Tell Elliott you have already contacted the police
> dept and they are aware of his behavior and will not hesitate to haul his
> butt
> in if he touches any other kid on the block. I say that because he will be
> on
> guard then that you are not only looking out for your kids, but for the
> neighborhood as a whole. Then I'd tell him he should warn his parents about
> my
> discussion with the police, so that should he screw up, they won't be
> shocked at
> his arrest.

Just a warning, you'd better be darn sure the police WILL haul him in if he
bothers a neighborhood kid. Most likely, from the descriptions, they would not
for what he has done so far. You don't want to be making threats of what
WILL happen if you are not absolutely positive that will be the and results.
You'll really lose face.

When I worked for the Juvi-division, (please don't take this personally, I'm
talking generalities) yuppie parents called in daily wanting a child at school
arrested for bullying their kid, or a neighborhood kid arrested for assault
and battery when there had been a fight. When it involves kids bickering,
school fights (unless a weapon is involved), name calling, etc, the police either
let the schools handle it or let the parents handle it. It has to be REALLY
bad for someone to be taken to jail....lots of property damage, or big time
physical harm, or a weapon involved. They just don't have time or the manpower
to referee childhood arguments.

Still, like I said in another post, you can file an incident report just
stating "such and such" happened, for future reference. I'd call the juvenile
division of your local PD, and ask them what their proceedures are, and what you
should do. They might have some more ideas and be able to let you know
legally where you stand.

Nancy


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marji

At 22:31 6/10/03 -0600, you wrote:
> >>Deb L is some kind of genius.
>
>(snip)
>
>I wish I'd known earlier... before I left my shoes out in the rain, forgot
>my yoga class this afternoon and mailed the satellite TV bill to the
>telephone company.
>
>But thank you for the nice words, anyway.

Yes, Deb. Geniuses are just like that!

Marji

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Tia Leschke

> When I worked for the Juvi-division, (please don't take this personally,
I'm
> talking generalities) yuppie parents called in daily wanting a child at
school
> arrested for bullying their kid, or a neighborhood kid arrested for
assault
> and battery when there had been a fight. When it involves kids bickering,
> school fights (unless a weapon is involved), name calling, etc, the police
either
> let the schools handle it or let the parents handle it. It has to be
REALLY
> bad for someone to be taken to jail....lots of property damage, or big
time
> physical harm, or a weapon involved. They just don't have time or the
manpower
> to referee childhood arguments.

Pretty sad that a adult can go to jail for punching someone in the face, but
if it's a child hitting they let the parents deal with it. Assault is
assault.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/03 4:07:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
CelticFrau@... writes:

> Just a warning, you'd better be darn sure the police WILL haul him in if he
>
> bothers a neighborhood kid. Most likely, from the descriptions, they would
> not
> for what he has done so far. You don't want to be making threats of what
> WILL happen if you are not absolutely positive that will be the and results.
>
> You'll really lose face.
>
> When I worked for the Juvi-division, (please don't take this personally, I'm
>
> talking generalities) yuppie parents called in daily wanting a child at
> school
> arrested for bullying their kid, or a neighborhood kid arrested for assault
> and battery when there had been a fight. When it involves kids bickering,
> school fights (unless a weapon is involved), name calling, etc, the police
> either
> let the schools handle it or let the parents handle it. It has to be REALLY
>
> bad for someone to be taken to jail....lots of property damage, or big time
> physical harm, or a weapon involved. They just don't have time or the
> manpower
> to referee childhood arguments.
>
> Still, like I said in another post, you can file an incident report just
> stating "such and such" happened, for future reference. I'd call the
> juvenile
> division of your local PD, and ask them what their proceedures are, and what
> you
> should do. They might have some more ideas and be able to let you know
> legally where you stand.
>
> Nancy
>

Yes Nancy, I fully agree with you on all the above. However, my stance on
calling the boy on the carpet is mostly in reference to his physical assaults on
her children, not childhoood bickering. The thing is, most bullies will, once
they have been put on notice, simply move on to some other child to hold power
over and victimize.

I definately think she should file at least incident reports. The sad thing
is, people see that as taking time away from law enforcement, should parents
start calling everytime a kid acts out inappropriately. But without such
documentation, should said bully actually hurt any child, there is no proof to fall
back on. And although the police may very well be low on man-power, not our
problem. To protect and to serve....well these kids need protection from this
future criminal. Yes, that is the second time I have referred to him as that,
because as sad as it is, that's the road he is headed down. And how would Dina
feel if she didn't call him on it and the next time around he truly hurts her
children. I don't even want to think about sexual assault, but again, he has
displayed these kind of tendencies and without recourse he will simply continue
without fear of retribution.

As far as laying it on the line, do you think this bully will attempt to
"test" Dina? He very well may, in which case, Dina needs to have contacted the
police and have begun to document such aggression. But I still doubt he would
try, especially after being told he better forewarn his parents. By telling the
kid himself to warn his parents, you put the ball back in his court, thereby
not risking him being possibly abused by his parents if they are told directly
by another parent. He'll know what to do, if he tells them, then abuse may not
be what was this kids problem. If he DOES NOT tell them then perhaps he is
being hurt by someone and putting him on notice will be enough, because he fears
the possibility that his parents may find out via law enforment.

It's not that I don't feel sorry for this kid in some respects, I'm sure his
little soul is crying out for help. By the same token though, I'd never let
any other kid be the sacrificial lamb because it is feared that he may be
abused. Perhaps putting the childrens play on video everytime they go out would
help. These things are all a pain in the hiney, but I'd rather be put out a little
than to allow this little rat to intimidate anyone any longer. At least then
you could have physical proof that he is harassing and harming your kids.
Perhaps that would be enough for a restraining order.

Good luck,
Rhonda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary

From: <CelticFrau@...>

<<Just a warning, you'd better be darn sure the police WILL haul him in if
he
bothers a neighborhood kid. Most likely, from the descriptions, they would
not
for what he has done so far. You don't want to be making threats of what
WILL happen if you are not absolutely positive that will be the and results.
You'll really lose face.>>


Okay for a small fee I'll send my husband. He can be very intimidating.
Trust me on this one.
He won't lay a finger on him.


Mary B

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/2003 1:27:38 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
> wish I'd known earlier... before I left my shoes out in the rain,
> forgot my yoga class this afternoon and mailed the satellite TV bill to
> the telephone company.

Ah Deb, you just proved it!! True geniuses are always absent minded, dontcha
know?

Ren, hoping it's true, or else I'm losing my mind. :)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/2003 8:05:42 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
> Rhonda - who is in the middle of a great female Celtic Warrior book right
> now, can ya tell?

I am LOVING your posts...from warrior to Zen master, cool!

Ren


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/03 3:07:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:

> >Rhonda - who is in the middle of a great female Celtic Warrior book right
> >now, can ya tell?
>
> I am LOVING your posts...from warrior to Zen master, cool!
>
> Ren
>

Thanx Ren!!! My DH laughed when I read this out loud. He agrees that I run
the emotional gamate and he's never really sure what mode I'll be in. LOL

Rhonda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/03 10:13:22 AM, RJHill241@... writes:

<< I definately think she should file at least incident reports. The sad
thing
is, people see that as taking time away from law enforcement, should parents
start calling everytime a kid acts out inappropriately. But without such
documentation, should said bully actually hurt any child, there is no proof
to fall
back on. >>

True, but don't expect the police to be able to come up with that stuff
later. Keep copies all together. It's enough to show you reported it before, and
when.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/13/2003 11:58:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> But without such
> documentation, should said bully actually hurt any child, there is no proof
> to fall
> back on. >>
>
> True, but don't expect the police to be able to come up with that stuff
> later. Keep copies all together. It's enough to show you reported it
> before, and
> when.
>
> Sandra
>
Not only that, you will usually have to pay for copies of reports. AND,
depending on who is involved, you may have to wait for it to be mailed to you.
When I worked in records, the people had to come in, pay for the copy, fill out
the paperwork to get a copy, then the copy had to be sent to them. Copies
have to have the victim's/suspect's phone numbers, addresses, etc blocked out,
and anything else that may "infringe" on someone's privacy.

Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]