[email protected]

I guess I am just thick. I am concerned for my ds and his lack of
desire for things intellectual,educational, school. I don't know what words to use
anymore. He is 15 and I do want him to make the choice of direction for his
life. Yes, he has rights as a human being to go in his own direction. What
happens if his choice is to drop out of school and live at home indefinitely, not
working or helping out, just reading skateboard magazines, that we pay for
because he can't get a job. He says he wants a job this summer even, but he
doesn't apply for them and they are very difficult to find, especially for kids of
his age. One thing I haven't tried, is deschooling for an entire month for
each year he has been in PS. Of course that would be like a year of him doing
next to nothing. ( He had pre-school and kindergarten) The things he chooses
during summer (3months) and vacations and weekends, is playing outside with the
troubled girl next door and occasionaly his magazines, and TV. Yes each of these
have some redeeming value, but an entire diet of any of them and a normal
person would go insane.
Sorry if this sounds really bad. I am just frustrated trying to figure
this all out along with my concern for my ds, and still dealing with 3 other
children that feel if everything is not the same for each then "it's not
fair".
Unschooling is a fantastic oppertunity for self motivated individuals
but with lazy and unmotivated people it is more difficult. ( again that
probably sound harsh but these guys will do as little as possible even accepting
punishment rather than help out or even take care of their own things)
Well, either you will have some advice or I will recieve flaming
emails. I am anxioust to see. Until then,

Londa <A HREF="www.mymomishome.com">www.mymomishome.com</A>

The solution to adult problems tomorrow depends on large measure upon
the how our children grow up today. There is no greater insight into the
future than recognizing when we save our children, we save ourselves. Margaret
Mead


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/9/03 7:46:15 PM, Loniam@... writes:

<< One thing I haven't tried, is deschooling for an entire month for
each year he has been in PS. >>

There are lots of things you haven't tried, like looking at the sky instead
of the floor.
You could try looking at your son as the pure being he is, instead of the
failed adult you've overlaid on him.

<<Of course that would be like a year of him doing
next to nothing.>>

Very negative.

<<Yes each of these
have some redeeming value, but an entire diet of any of them and a normal
person would go insane.>>

How is he now? Normal? Sane?

School is not normal. If you don't want him to go AND you're not willing to
allow him time and space to recover, what miracle do you want us to provide
you?

<< Unschooling is a fantastic oppertunity for self motivated
individuals
but with lazy and unmotivated people it is more difficult. >>

What do you base this statement on?

<<( again that probably sound harsh but these guys will do as little as p
ossible even accepting
punishment rather than help out or even take care of their own things)>>

We can help you HUGELY if you honestly want help. We could help you change
your whole life.

<< Well, either you will have some advice or I will recieve flaming emails.
>>

Why does it have to be one or the other?

Read this:
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
<A HREF="http://sandradodd.com/deschooling">Deschooling for Parents, by
Sandra Dodd</A>
and read what it links to

and read these
http://sandradodd.com/articles
<A HREF="http://sandradodd.com/articles">http://sandradodd.com/articles</A>

And read them lightly and airily. BREATHE while you're reading and think
lovely thoughts.

Have you considered that you might be suffering depression and from that
seeing your kids through a lens of negativity which is more you than them? CAN
you breathe and think lovely thoughts?

Sandra

Jon and Rue Kream

Hi Londa -

I'll give you my opinions on some of the things you said. I hope some of it
helps you and your relationship with your son.

>>I am concerned for my ds and his lack of
desire for things intellectual,educational, school.

**I know that society places a lot of importance in this things, but have
you put some thought into whether or not they are actually important for
your son? Maybe he isn't an intellectual. That doesn't mean he does not
have other 'valuable' qualities. Is he kind? Mechanical? Artistic?
Imaginative? What does HE think is important in life? Is that something
that you've talked with him about?

>> What
happens if his choice is to drop out of school and live at home indefinitely

**Well, I'd be thrilled if my kids lived here forever, but do you really
think it's a probable outcome?

>>One thing I haven't tried, is deschooling for an entire month for
each year he has been in PS.

**I highly recommend it. I think by the end of that time you would be
surprised by what your son is doing, and by the improvement in your
relationship with him once you've taken a break from being stressed out
about his future, and started to see him as he is in the moment.

>>an entire diet of any of them and a normal
person would go insane.

**You seem to be saying that your son is not 'normal'. What is normal,
anyway? We all have our own passions and interests and I'd hate to be
judged abnormal because I spend a lot of time bending wire, for example. I
also believe that what we think about our children affects what they think
about themselves in a major way, even if we never vocalize it to them. What
messages is your son receiving from you about himself? Are you making him
feel loved for who he is?

>> Unschooling is a fantastic oppertunity for self motivated individuals
but with lazy and unmotivated people it is more difficult

**Again, I would be concerned about what message you are giving your son if
you think he is lazy and unmotivated. It's quite possible that you are
creating a self-fulfilling prophesy. You think he's lazy so he might as
well act lazy.

>>these guys will do as little as possible even accepting
punishment rather than help out or even take care of their own things)

**Well, this seems like a pretty good indication that punishments don't
really work. Maybe it's time to try a different way of dealing with your
kids?

I recommend looking for the good that is your son right this minute, I
recommend looking at him through positive eyes instead of negative, and I
recommend really thinking about what you are contributing to your
relationship with him by thinking of him as lazy and abnormal.

~Rue








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jmcseals SEALS

<<Unschooling is a fantastic oppertunity for self motivated individuals
but with lazy and unmotivated people it is more difficult. ( again that
probably sound harsh but these guys will do as little as possible even
accepting
punishment rather than help out or even take care of their own things)>>

I'll try and be gentle. :)

Unschooling is quite the opposite, imo. It is great for UNmotivated people!
It gives them time and freedom to explore what it is they DO like. My
first suggestion would be to help your son find other interesting people to
hang out with if you are concerned about the troubled girl next door. Here
we have skate parks, is there anything like that where you live?

My guess would be that your son has many more interests than what you are
aware of. It sounds like he doesn't feel safe letting you in on what does
motivate him. Especially if he is or is afraid of being punished.

My next suggestion would be to read, read, read. RUN out and buy a copy of
The Teenage Liberation Handbook. You can find a discounted copy here...

I can almost guarantee if you read it and offer it to your son as
acceptable, he will fly! If he feels comfort and support in pursuing his
own interests with your support he won't be content to just lie around
reading magazines all day everyday. I've never known a kid to honestly do
that. I don't think anyone here has.

Your fears are steeped in public school brainwashing. I know that sounds
harsh, but it is absolutely true. He needs, more than anything, to know
that you support him and think he is worthy of becoming an amazing
individual. I promise, whether you believe it or not, he has picked up on
your feelings and doubts.

Is this the same kid who reads skater mags all day and dresses in black,
baggy clothes? My 12 yr old is very into the skater/punk scene. She
dresses in black and wears spikey jewelry and belts most of the time. She
is a GREAT kid! We were school-at-homers for quite some time. Then we
became really laid back but still used curriculum. She wanted to go to
school and asked often. I left it as an option and ran like hell to find
something better than what we were doing. I found unschooling. I took a
deep breath and dove in head first. I quit asking her to do school work,
chores, and every other nonsense thing I had been doing. I quit punishing.
I started to ask myself questions daily. Would I want someone telling me
how to learn? How to eat, speak, spend my free time? If I was feeling
down, bored, directionless, would I want my Mom to tell me what a lazy bum I
was or how hard I was going to have it if I didn't make something of myself?

It was clear to me then what my daughter needed. I read here; still do! I
bought books, checked out books, bought tapes (buy Sandra's!) read websites
and started a journal. The change has been truly amazing. We are still
growing, still learning, still feeling down and bored sometimes. What we
have now is freedom. We have love and respect for each other. We finally
have peace.

I urge you to start with Sandra's site first. Her site has the more
personal changes and life transforming information. Then go to
unschooling.com. For me personally, I got more out of Sandra's site. You
might be different.

Please, tell yourself everyday, every minute if you have to, that your son
will turn out to be more than you ever dreamed he could be. Remember that
school never turned out a bright or successful person. The success comes
from the person himself. From his desires and motivation. All the pushing
and punishing in the world won't make a successful person. Nor a happy one.

Jennifer

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jmcseals SEALS

Oops! Forgot to get the link in there. DOn't know how that happened!

Here ya go!

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/offering/list/-/0962959170/all/ref=sr_pb_a/002-9477518-7982444

It's cheaper even here:

http://half.ebay.com/search/search.jsp?nthTime=1&product=books&keyword=the+teenage+liberation+handbook

Jennifer

_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deborah Lewis

If his self esteem has been damaged by school it won't be made magically
alright in a few weeks. If he has lost parts of himself to the
expectations of others he needs time to heal.

If you think badly about him, speak disparagingly of him and shame his
interests you won't be helping him to feel good about himself. You'll
be adding to his pain and insecurity.

He's a whole person right now. Start from there instead of the negative
place you seem to be right now and watch how things change.

You are the one who needs to help him remember all the good things about
himself and if you're convinced something - everything - is wrong with
him how can you do that? Where can he turn for help and support if not
you?

Help him do the things he's interested in. Help him instead of standing
in his way, and instead of criticizing and worrying. Make an effort to
see his interest as valuable.

If you can support him in becoming a self confident, happy person with
hopes and dreams he will never be the unambitious person your afraid of.
Forget about academic stuff entirely. What have academics done for
him? Forget about school things and think about joyful human things.
You can't pour negativity all over him and then expect to see him at his
best.

Deb L

Mary

From: "Jon and Rue Kream" <skreams@...>

<<I recommend looking for the good that is your son right this minute, I
recommend looking at him through positive eyes instead of negative, and I
recommend really thinking about what you are contributing to your
relationship with him by thinking of him as lazy and abnormal.>>


I really wish I could add something to what Rue said. I can't. It was
wonderful. My only suggestion is that you save it and read it often. Really
read it and accept the differences your son is showing you. You have to
allow yourself to let him have the time to deschool. Totally let him,
rethink the punishments and rethink you already labeling him as lazy and not
motivated. He's got a terrific person inside there if you can just see it
and nurture that part of him. And read a lot. On this list, message boards
and Sandra's web site. Then read it all again. And stay with us and ask lots
of questions. A little at a time.

Mary B

Jon and Rue Kream

These things, these things....I can't stand typos. ~Rue

>>I know that society places a lot of importance in this things


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart

> <<Unschooling is a fantastic oppertunity for self motivated
individuals
> but with lazy and unmotivated people it is more difficult. ( again
that
> probably sound harsh but these guys will do as little as
possible even
> accepting
> punishment rather than help out or even take care of their own
things)>>

This reminds me of a comment a friend made to me once when
I was explaining to her that writing is all about the mind life of her
children. Their thoughts are what create the writing. Her reply:
"Well, my son doesn't think any interesting thoughts. He's only
1/4 inch deep."

Pause for shock and dropping jaw.

Then I replied, "Well, his thoughts must be interesting to him.
That's why he thinks them."

We are so quick to devalue what we don't know or understand or
what doesn't correspond with our view of life.

Kids who are skaters (and my brother was one) are so often
assumed to be stupid or dull or bored unmotivated types. But
have you ever watched skaters? Not exactly an undisciplined
bunch. To perform the way they do takes the kind of commitment
few of us give to anything in our lives.

Skaters are usually the sensuous performers on myers briggs
which means that much of their intelligence is lodged in their
muscles. They've got to move to think. They've got to use their
bodies to learn. And they are usually able to give an amazing
amount of time and energy to something once they lock in and
work on it.

So let him go. My poor brother spent his twenties recovering from
being considered stupid, though he was an astounding athlete
who excelled especially in surfing and skateboarding (not the
valuable spors like football! gag). Once he realized he wasn't
stupid, he applied that same commitment to business. He
started his own company from scratch and makes a ton of
money today. Who knew?

Love that kid. He's probably needing to recover from the school
brand on his pysche that says he's stupid, anti-social and
uncommitted.

Julie B

litlrooh

The solution to adult problems tomorrow depends on large measure upon
the how our children grow up today. There is no greater insight into
the
future than recognizing when we save our children, we save ourselves.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Interesting that you would have this as a sig line.

What I read in your email is frustration over today and panic about
tomorrow.

Maybe what you all need to do is take ONE day at a time, and just
live that day, together...doing whatever makes it a pleasant and
happy day for all of you. Remember when you gazed on that baby boy
and just loved him and everything was a significant milestone in the
right direction? Try doing that again. See him as wonderful, even
as he is. When you believe in him, he'll believe in himself.
He may be 15 and full of bravado, but believe me, he still looks to
you to see how he measures up.

When you string a bunch of happy days together, not only do you have
a happy LIFE, but your whole perspective begins to change (and so
will his).

When my son was very young and I didn't know any better, we saw a
psychologist, who had a 15 year old boy at the time. I was scared to
death for my son's future, even then. One of the things the
psychologist told me was that if you take each day at a time, and
take each thing as it comes, and work on each one, the future will
take care of itself.

Now my son is almost 15. And you know what? The psychologist was
right. My son is not perfect. He is still somewhat immature and
impulsive (as he should be!) and he is currently of the belief that
he should be himself at all costs, no matter how offensive it might
be to others. But I remember being the same way at that age.

Instead of worrying that he will alienate himself out of a future
job, or a future "education", I realize now that this personality
trait is what makes a critical thinker, a lobbiest, an activist, an
inventer, a philosopher, and/or a catalyst for change in the world.
Maybe he'll never do anything with that skill but vote his
conscience. The point is, its a good trait to have.

Instead of worrying about what your son is *not* doing...think about
what he *is* doing and all the possibilities there are in the future
for him to utilize those traits and skills. There is no such thing
as a negative character trait. EVERY character trait has good uses
and bad uses. Its a choice, but that choice is based on how we see
ourselves.

You say your son is "lazy". But could it be that he is just
not "anal"? Maybe he is just very laid back and lets things roll
right off of his shoulders. Maybe he sees the "bigger picture" in
things and doesn't get hung up on "details". We need both kinds of
people in the world. I'm a "big picture" person too, and I make a
pretty good ER nurse because of it.

I remember how often my mother told me I was lazy because I wasn't
concerned with the same details that she was. I was just interested
in other things. I'm 36 now, and my house is clean, my kids are well
cared for, and I manage to hold a decent job too...even when I
don't "feel like" going to work :o). I'm not anal about it because I
have other things I'm more interested in paying attention to. Its
just a trade off, its not immoral.

When my son was "deschooling" (or maybe it was just an age thing), he
went through about a year of retreating into his own games, music,
magazines, etc. When he emerged, he suddenly got a job, and joined
the swim team knowing only one stroke...and with no knowledge of how
to do a flip turn. That takes quite a bit of courage for a 13 year
old perfectionist. He even had to attend practice with younger kids,
but he was ok with that.

Anyway...take a deep breath and think about all the *good* things his
personality traits could produce. See him and just love him as he
is. And when you feel you have accomplished that, let *him* know how
much you believe in him.

Kristen

Susan Fuerst

Ok, Julie, you mentioned Myers-Briggs. It is sort of a hobby interest
with me. I wonder if unschoolers would be similar in Mb type? Have you
been evaluated?

Anyone here know their Myers-Briggs type and willing to share? I was
evaluated 20 yrs (geez, that makes me feel....older!) I was INFP, but
thought I maybe became more "J" over the past 3-5 yrs.

Susan....off to begin the Jung biography I got from the library last
week.

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/9/2003 11:06:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jmcseals@... writes:


> Please, tell yourself everyday, every minute if you have to, that your son
> will turn out to be more than you ever dreamed he could be. Remember that
> school never turned out a bright or successful person. The success comes
> from the person himself. From his desires and motivation. All the pushing
> and punishing in the world won't make a successful person. Nor a happy one.
>

Too long for a bumper sticker. Bummer.

Great post!

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/2003 8:41:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
> In a message dated 6/9/2003 11:06:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> jmcseals@... writes:


> Please, tell yourself everyday, every minute if you have to,
> that your son
> will turn out to be more than you ever dreamed he could be.
> Remember that
> school never turned out a bright or successful person. The
> success comes
> from the person himself. From his desires and motivation. All
> the pushing
> and punishing in the world won't make a successful person. Nor
> a happy one.
>

Good away message for the family members who think school and punishing is
the only way to go.

Laura D


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma2kids

>> This reminds me of a comment a friend made to me once when I was
explaining to her that writing is all about the mind life of her
children. Their thoughts are what create the writing. Her reply:
"Well, my son doesn't think any interesting thoughts. He's only 1/4
inch deep.">>

And I'll bet he would be very cautious about sharing any of his
deeper thoughts with a mother who belittles him so openly. Jeez.

Conor (14) is not anything that school would consider a writer. He's
not much for putting pen to paper. His biggest passions right now are
the Matrix, DragonballZ and anything Anime, Sci-Fi and Fantasy. If
you wanted to dismiss him as a non-thinker, you could certainly
categorize all of those interests as teenage/kid fluff.

But I don't. I talk to him and I really listen. And the other day he
opened up with some amazing thoughts that had apparently been
swirling around him for awhile.

We got to talking about Pandora's Box and he told me his
interpretation of the story. He said that he believes Pandora's Box
is a metaphor for the ideas and knowledge locked inside each one of
us. It's accepted that the box is dangerous, because society fears
new ideas and change. But our challenge as humans is to find the key
to unlock our own Pandora's Box and unsettle the world with our new
ideas.

Wow.

Don't push the academics. Let the stories and ideas and information
flow around them like water. They'll get wet and absorb and drink it
in.

Life is good.
~Mary

Betsy

**He says he wants a job this summer even, but he
doesn't apply for them and they are very difficult to find, especially
for kids of
his age. **

There was just a segment on the radio 5 minutes ago about how many
students coming out of graduate school with MBAs can't find jobs.

On the other hand, maybe by September, some of the typical 15 year old
jobs will be open as other kids march back to school. Your son could
work during his deschooling period and still decompress. It isn't all
about idleness.

People who don't want to do anything, after a deschooling period, are
either "depressed" or "oppressed", I think. The deschooling may be
essential to overcome the oppression, but keep an eye out for
depression. My husband and I were both having suicidal thoughts when we
were 15. The hormones at that age can be a total downer.

Betsy

**Unschooling is a fantastic oppertunity for self motivated individuals
but with lazy and unmotivated people it is more difficult.**

Do you ever do challenging or thoughtful things for fun, or are you
driven by a nagging voice in your head to be constructive all day long?
Do you feel guilty if you sit down with a book, or TV or computer?

Betsy

**Anyone here know their Myers-Briggs type and willing to share? I was
evaluated 20 yrs (geez, that makes me feel....older!) I was INFP, but
thought I maybe became more "J" over the past 3-5 yrs.**

I really like tolerant "P" people, philosophically, but my friends have
convinced my that I'm a "J" (judging).

I'm very "N" (intuitive) and think that that helps in making the leap of
faith to unschooling. I'm an "F" (feeling) and I don't think very many
"F"s would go around saying "school toughens you up, so suck it up and
get used to it!" <snort> It may be harder for "T" (thinking) types to
justify leaving school.

Betsy, E?NFJ?

Tammy Thompson

This is what it said for me: INFP


slightly expressed introvert

distinctively expressed intuitive personality

moderately expressed feeling personality

slightly expressed perceiving personality

tammy

-------Original Message-------

>>>>>>>>>Oh, I'm an ENFP - slightly extroverted, iNtuitive, extremely
Feeling, Perceiver. Until I figured it out I felt totally thick! God bless
my boos. She had me take the test - she could spot and ENFP at 1000
paces!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nellebelle

I thought deschooling was supposed to be a period of doing fun things, not
doing "nothing". Pretend it's summer vacation and plan something fun and
different for each week. Contact your local tourist center and ask for
their guide. Our area puts out a glossy magazine that is full of day trips,
museums, parks, special events, etc. Ask each of your kids to pick
something out of it, then do it with them (even if it is something you would
never choose to do yourself - even if it is something that YOU think is
dumb). Make it special. Pack a cooler with foods, snacks, and beverages
and pretend you ARE tourists. Take a camera or buy postcards to send or
save. Go camping or go stay in a hotel in another town and explore their
sights.

Invite the girl next door, or other friends, to come along on some of these
trips (if your son would like that). Read some of his magazines and ask him
questions about them. Watch TV WITH him.

Do those things that many of us forget to do. Go bowling, miniature golf,
community swimming pool. Host a film festival. Choose several movies,
provide popcorn and beverages, and invite some friends. Maybe have everyone
bring sleeping bags and camp in front of the TV for the movie marathon.
Camp in the backyard. Go on day hikes. Take a group of teens to the mall
or video game store. You can hang out nearby and read a book or sip a latte
while they play.

We are all unique. One man's insanity could be another's ecstasy. Why
should a teenage boy have all the same interests that you have as a female
adult?

Mary Ellen

----- Original Message -----
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Am I just thick?
One thing I haven't tried, is deschooling for an entire month for
> each year he has been in PS. Of course that would be like a year of him
doing
> next to nothing. ( He had pre-school and kindergarten) The things he
chooses
> during summer (3months) and vacations and weekends, is playing outside
with the
> troubled girl next door and occasionaly his magazines, and TV. Yes each of
these
> have some redeeming value, but an entire diet of any of them and a normal
> person would go insane.

Andrea

At 08:22 AM 6/10/03 -0700, Betsy wrote:
> It may be harder for "T" (thinking) types to
>justify leaving school.

I am an ISTJ and I had no problem chucking school :-)

Donna Andrea

Tia Leschke

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

> I guess I am just thick. I am concerned for my ds and his lack of
> desire for things intellectual,educational, school. I don't know what
words to use
> anymore. He is 15 and I do want him to make the choice of direction for
his
> life. Yes, he has rights as a human being to go in his own direction. What
> happens if his choice is to drop out of school and live at home
indefinitely, not
> working or helping out, just reading skateboard magazines, that we pay for
> because he can't get a job. He says he wants a job this summer even, but
he
> doesn't apply for them and they are very difficult to find, especially for
kids of
> his age. One thing I haven't tried, is deschooling for an entire month for
> each year he has been in PS. Of course that would be like a year of him
doing
> next to nothing. ( He had pre-school and kindergarten) The things he
chooses
> during summer (3months) and vacations and weekends, is playing outside
with the
> troubled girl next door and occasionaly his magazines, and TV. Yes each of
these
> have some redeeming value, but an entire diet of any of them and a normal
> person would go insane.

I agree with everything that's been said so far. What I want to point out
is that your son may always be inclined toward doing more physical things.
This is absolutely not a bad thing. I've been reading that, at least in
Canada and probably also in the States, blue collar workers are going to be
at a premium in a few years. So many parents and teachers and counsellors
have been pushing academics over vocational training for so long that there
just aren't all that many younger blue collar workers. It's stupid for two
reasons. For one, there's now going to be a shortage. For the other, there
are always going to be kids who aren't academically oriented. They can be
very successful doing the kinds of physical things they like to do, so why
push them in directions that don't suit them?

My 15 year old son is a lot like your boy, and he's never been to school.
His passions are team sports and mountain biking. He's spent a lot of time
on his computer searching out biking information and pricing bike parts.
That and his bike mags are about the only reading he does, but he can now
read anything he chooses to read. (He only learned at age 12.) I'm happy
with that. His spelling is still terrible, and it's starting to bother him.
It doesn't bother him enough to want to do anything about it yet, but I
think he's leaning that way. And even if he doesn't, he can always get one
of those Franklin spelling machines.

His interest in biking has led to watching biking videos a lot, which has
led to an interest in film-making, especially the editing aspect Maybe
he'll do something with that one day. He already knows enough about fixing
bikes that the local bike store owner would hire him if he had enough
business. I can see him owning his own bike store one day. I can also see
him running an eco-tourism business (very big here on Vancouver Island).

He's worked off and on for his dad doing forestry work and knows he doesn't
want to make his living that way, but he could if he had to. Which brings
me to the lazy, unmotivated comment. My son *looks* lazy and unmotivated at
times. When he isn't working he'll sometimes watch TV for days straight.
But when he starts working, he seems much happier. He likes the challenge
of making as much money as he can. (The forestry work is piece-work. They
get paid by the hectare or number of trees or whatever, depends what they're
doing.) He jumps right out of the crummy when it gets to the job site and
starts working right away. The older workers sit around smoking and
drinking coffee for half an hour, with frequent smoke and coffee breaks
through the day. Then they bitch and complain if he makes more money than
they do. He likes feeling competent and needed. Maybe your son needs help
finding work that would make him feel competent and useful.

But the best thing you can do for your son is much like what everyone else
has said. See him as smart, competent, motivated, and interesting. Give
him time to deschool, but don't expect that he *will* turn to academics. He
may never do much in that area, but he *can* be very successful, especially
with your support.
Tia

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], "Susan Fuerst"
<fuerst@f...> wrote:
>
>
> Ok, Julie, you mentioned Myers-Briggs. It is sort of a hobby
interest
> with me. I wonder if unschoolers would be similar in Mb type?
Have you
> been evaluated?

Yes. I like to use Keirsey Bates with my kids (Please Understand
Me). They love it. My sister is a therapist and we have "pegging"
duels. We try to see who can ID members of groups first when
we are newcomers. :)
>
> Anyone here know their Myers-Briggs type and willing to
share? I was
> evaluated 20 yrs (geez, that makes me feel....older!) I was
INFP, but
> thought I maybe became more "J" over the past 3-5 yrs.

I've gotten more P over the years.

I'm an ENFP and suspect that lots of unschoolers are NFs
(focus being empathic relating to others). The P quality makes it
easy for me to tolerate random chaos. :)

ENFPs are known for being enthusiastic learners, love to have
parties which focus on other people (more than just holding a
party for the sake of an occasion) but are most happy when
engaged in relating to others on a deep level.

I wonder how many STJs unschool. I'd think not too many. STJs
tend to like traditional institutions, are loyal to authority and they
make up the majority of A students and teachers. Isn't that wild?

NTs, otoh, would be drawn to the ideology of unschooling just for
the experimental nature of it! They love to chew on a new idea
like a dog with a bone and test it every which way.

So I hope lots of women share their scores. it would be fun to do
an informal (random and chaotic <g>) survey of this list and see
what we get.

Any STs?

Julie B

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], Andrea
<andrea@n...> wrote:
> At 08:22 AM 6/10/03 -0700, Betsy wrote:
> > It may be harder for "T" (thinking) types to
> >justify leaving school.
>
> I am an ISTJ and I had no problem chucking school :-)
>
> Donna Andrea

Donna, so cool! There you are—an STJ unschooler. That's
awesome. I always hope that any ideology will have a diverse
represntation in the temperaments. To me, that shows that it is a
healthy ideology.

Julie

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/2003 1:14:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
julie@... writes:


> ENFPs are known for being enthusiastic learners, love to have
> parties which focus on other people (more than just holding a
> party for the sake of an occasion) but are most happy when
> engaged in relating to others on a deep level.
>

I'm going to guess that I fall into here---ENFP---although I haven't taken
the test yet. I will when things slow down here---maybe tonight. But that pretty
much describes this theme party girl!

Hell---that's what the conference IS! But I can also throw a party just for
the sake of an occasion---or a made-up one! <G> Party, party, PARTY!

~Kelly, will test tonight.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/03 11:11:04 AM, nellebelle@... writes:

<< I thought deschooling was supposed to be a period of doing fun things, not

doing "nothing". >>

Some people think nothing is fun!
<bwg>

I added some new links to my deschooling page, notably the first on the
bottom left, Pattie Donahue-Krueger's article. I'm surprised this wasn't already
online. I just intended to link to it, but it wasn't there! Now it is!

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
<A HREF="http://sandradodd.com/deschooling">Deschooling for Parents, by
Sandra Dodd</A>

[email protected]

In a message dated 6-10-2003 5:32:36 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
fuerst@... writes:

> Ok, Julie, you mentioned Myers-Briggs. It is sort of a hobby interest
> with me. I wonder if unschoolers would be similar in Mb type? Have you
> been evaluated?
>
> Anyone here know their Myers-Briggs type and willing to share? I was
> evaluated 20 yrs (geez, that makes me feel....older!) I was INFP, but
> thought I maybe became more "J" over the past 3-5 yrs.
>
> Susan....off to begin the Jung biography I got from the library last
> week.
>

I briefly dated a Psychology PhD student who tried to give me this test on
his computer. All three attempts resulted in his computer crashing ... fate? <
bwg> so I have no idea which letters I am :-D
diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
“I'm just a human being trying to make it in a world that is very rapidly
losing it's understanding of being human" John Trudell


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

moonstarshooter

--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart"
<julie@b...> wrote:

> I wonder how many STJs unschool. I'd think not too many. STJs
> tend to like traditional institutions, are loyal to authority and
they
> make up the majority of A students and teachers. Isn't that wild?
>

What about STJ kids? My daughter is extremely ESTJ. I don't think I
have ever read any description of that personality type that didn't
fit her to a T. And I think that is the single hardest thing for me
with unschooling. She LOVED the school (preschool) setting. When we
were doing workbooks, it was NEVER forced. (Well, maybe HER forcing
ME to get them out and "do school" with her.) Even now when she
pulls one of her workbooks out, she wants me to "Use your teacher
voice, Mommy." And she wants me to talk like there are other kids in
the class. And of course, she wants me to show the other kids how
good her work was. And she would love a set recess time, a bell when
it is time to come in, just about anything "schooly."

Although I have never faced any opposition from family members about
my choice to homeschool, several have recognized the fact that she
WOULD be a highly "successful" A student that would LOVE school. So
I figure if that is one way she wants to play, we can play that way.
I do tire of that teacher's voice, though. ;)

So anyway, I am always looking for non-schooly opportunities to feed
her needs. It is very hard to provide the structure she wants when I
am so anti-structure. Any ideas from others out there with STJ kids?

Tory~~
ENTP
Extroverted Intuitive Thinking Perceiving
22 89 22 33

Tim and Maureen

Julie and M-B enthusiasts,

An M-B true story - funny I hope - with a moral too.

I was sitting in a small meeting room with 5 others, one of whom was new to the group, waiting for one more person before starting. (It was a Success Team meeting, all you Wishcrafters!) The new person Sara and I started chatting, just the two of us, but it's a small room for 6. She seemed to know about M-B so I barged right in and asked her if she'd done the test. "Oh, yes, I'm an ISFJ." More chat and then she tells me that she's on a Board of Directors and the whole group (12 people) are a bunch of Perceivers. "I'm so frustrated. I'm a J and they are really into their P-ness." All conversation in the room halts. LOOOONG silence. And then I ROAR! The whole room roars and people in the office come and see what's so funny 'cause we're all on the floor holding our sides!

Moral: caution is warranted when discussing the "essence of being a Perceiver"!!!!!!!!

My (storytelling) thtos
Tim T


----- Original Message -----
From: Julie Bogart
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 10:12 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Myers-Briggs...was Am I just thick?


--- In [email protected], "Susan Fuerst"
<fuerst@f...> wrote:
>
>
> Ok, Julie, you mentioned Myers-Briggs. It is sort of a hobby
interest
> with me. I wonder if unschoolers would be similar in Mb type?
Have you
> been evaluated?

Yes. I like to use Keirsey Bates with my kids (Please Understand
Me). They love it. My sister is a therapist and we have "pegging"
duels. We try to see who can ID members of groups first when
we are newcomers. :)
>
> Anyone here know their Myers-Briggs type and willing to
share? I was
> evaluated 20 yrs (geez, that makes me feel....older!) I was
INFP, but
> thought I maybe became more "J" over the past 3-5 yrs.

I've gotten more P over the years.

I'm an ENFP and suspect that lots of unschoolers are NFs
(focus being empathic relating to others). The P quality makes it
easy for me to tolerate random chaos. :)

ENFPs are known for being enthusiastic learners, love to have
parties which focus on other people (more than just holding a
party for the sake of an occasion) but are most happy when
engaged in relating to others on a deep level.

I wonder how many STJs unschool. I'd think not too many. STJs
tend to like traditional institutions, are loyal to authority and they
make up the majority of A students and teachers. Isn't that wild?

NTs, otoh, would be drawn to the ideology of unschooling just for
the experimental nature of it! They love to chew on a new idea
like a dog with a bone and test it every which way.

So I hope lots of women share their scores. it would be fun to do
an informal (random and chaotic <g>) survey of this list and see
what we get.

Any STs?

Julie B


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tim and Maureen

I worked with an ESTJ who COULD NOT get unschooling. Wrong. Just plain wrong. No structure. On the other and he regularly stomped on our feelings and ideas around the office. Didn't even notice. It was just the right thing to do.

So, I tried to blend. (My old Aikido training) Resist and lose. Blend and enjoy the ride. Maybe with kids it's the same. Blend/bend/adjust/assist. It's tiresome at times, but so is scrapping with them.

My (blender) thots
Tim T

----- Original Message -----
From: moonstarshooter
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 10:16 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Myers-Briggs--STJs


--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart"
<julie@b...> wrote:

> I wonder how many STJs unschool. I'd think not too many. STJs
> tend to like traditional institutions, are loyal to authority and
they
> make up the majority of A students and teachers. Isn't that wild?
>

What about STJ kids? My daughter is extremely ESTJ. I don't think I
have ever read any description of that personality type that didn't
fit her to a T. And I think that is the single hardest thing for me
with unschooling. She LOVED the school (preschool) setting. When we
were doing workbooks, it was NEVER forced. (Well, maybe HER forcing
ME to get them out and "do school" with her.) Even now when she
pulls one of her workbooks out, she wants me to "Use your teacher
voice, Mommy." And she wants me to talk like there are other kids in
the class. And of course, she wants me to show the other kids how
good her work was. And she would love a set recess time, a bell when
it is time to come in, just about anything "schooly."

Although I have never faced any opposition from family members about
my choice to homeschool, several have recognized the fact that she
WOULD be a highly "successful" A student that would LOVE school. So
I figure if that is one way she wants to play, we can play that way.
I do tire of that teacher's voice, though. ;)

So anyway, I am always looking for non-schooly opportunities to feed
her needs. It is very hard to provide the structure she wants when I
am so anti-structure. Any ideas from others out there with STJ kids?

Tory~~
ENTP
Extroverted Intuitive Thinking Perceiving
22 89 22 33



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected],
"moonstarshooter" <torywalk@t...> wrote:
> --- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart"
> <julie@b...> wrote:
>
> > I wonder how many STJs unschool. I'd think not too many.
STJs
> > tend to like traditional institutions, are loyal to authority and
> they
> > make up the majority of A students and teachers. Isn't that
wild?
> >
>
> What about STJ kids? My daughter is extremely ESTJ. I don't
think I
> have ever read any description of that personality type that
didn't
> fit her to a T. And I think that is the single hardest thing for me
> with unschooling. She LOVED the school (preschool) setting.
When we
> were doing workbooks, it was NEVER forced. (Well, maybe
HER forcing
> ME to get them out and "do school" with her.) Even now when
she
> pulls one of her workbooks out, she wants me to "Use your
teacher
> voice, Mommy." And she wants me to talk like there are other
kids in
> the class. And of course, she wants me to show the other kids
how
> good her work was. And she would love a set recess time, a
bell when
> it is time to come in, just about anything "schooly."

OMIGAWD! That's my exact problem with number three child.
he's an ESTJ (classic American male) and he loved it when the
whole family had set school—table time, read aloud time and
then project time. (We were eclectic schoolers at that point). We
do go to a co-op once a week tht helps to sate his need for
socializing within a structure.

he told me (now that we've unschooled for six months) that he
just isn't into being unschooled. I had explained to him that all
that means is that his education is one that is tailor designed to
suit his needs.

So we're going to purchase a cool science program for him next
year (that has both experiments and course work).

It's been tough. He's even cried a few times worried that he's not
learning. (Geesh--from the kid who knows more about the
universe than anyone I know!)

>
> Although I have never faced any opposition from family
members about
> my choice to homeschool, several have recognized the fact that
she
> WOULD be a highly "successful" A student that would LOVE
school. So
> I figure if that is one way she wants to play, we can play that
way.
> I do tire of that teacher's voice, though. ;)

LOL! I haven't tried that one yet. :)
>
> So anyway, I am always looking for non-schooly opportunities
to feed
> her needs. It is very hard to provide the structure she wants
when I
> am so anti-structure. Any ideas from others out there with STJ
kids?

Ack Tory! I'm that temperament that forgets relevant details! What
drives my son batty is that I buck any kind of systematic
approach. One description of my temprament went so far as to
say that I tend to find the weakness in a system and then
organize the detractors and set up a coup (or at least, a protest).
I looked back over my life and sure enough—it's proven true!

So to have to "do school" in a traditional way just exhausts me.
But I also see his need to at least know he's progressing. This is
what the underlying idea is. He wants a way to measure
himself... so I'm looking for ways to do that with him

Open to all ideas! :)

Julie, the ENFP crusader

>
> Tory~~
> ENTP
> Extroverted Intuitive Thinking Perceiving
> 22 89 22 33

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], Tim and
Maureen <tmthomas@s...> wrote:
> Julie and M-B enthusiasts,
>
> An M-B true story - funny I hope - with a moral too.
>
> I was sitting in a small meeting room with 5 others, one of
whom was new to the group, waiting for one more person before
starting. (It was a Success Team meeting, all you Wishcrafters!)
The new person Sara and I started chatting, just the two of us,
but it's a small room for 6. She seemed to know about M-B so I
barged right in and asked her if she'd done the test. "Oh, yes, I'm
an ISFJ." More chat and then she tells me that she's on a Board
of Directors and the whole group (12 people) are a bunch of
Perceivers. "I'm so frustrated. I'm a J and they are really into
their P-ness." All conversation in the room halts. LOOOONG
silence. And then I ROAR! The whole room roars and people in
the office come and see what's so funny 'cause we're all on the
floor holding our sides!
>
> Moral: caution is warranted when discussing the "essence of
being a Perceiver"!!!!!!!!
>
> My (storytelling) thtos
> Tim T

ROARING!!!

Tim, you're a hoot. Will watch that P, ur, thing.

Julie B