pets/dogs
kayb85
Continuing the pet thread...
My daughter is turning 10 this month. She really wants a dog. Dh
finally said ok, IF she can be the one to take care of it. Neither
he nor I want the responsibility--it's enough taking care of the
house and the kids! Neither of us mind having a dog around if she
does the work. We made it very clear to her all of the things she
would need to do. She wants a chocolate lab. We found a breeder and
are waiting for the dog to have puppies.
When we were at the library she got some books on dog care and read a
lot. She wrote stuff down from the book so that she could tell her
dad and I about it.
Then one day she came to me crying. She didn't know if she should
get the dog or not. She said she really wants it but doesn't know if
she will be able to handle the responsibility. She also said that
she's afraid she'll feel that it's unfair that her younger brothers
will enjoy playing with the dog but she'll end up doing all the
work. I was torn. I didn't know whether to encourage her to go for
something that she really wanted (a puppy) or to seriously consider
the reality of all the work a puppy would be. I ended up telling her
to just give it some more thought, that the decision was hers, and to
spend some time thinking about whether she wanted the dog badly
enough to be willing to spend the time on the puppy that she would
need to spend on it. I'd be paying 200 for this dog so I don't want
to just get it and give it away if it doesn't work out.
Now, a neighbor girl has gotten a lab puppy and has spent a lot of
time playing with it in our yard and even brought it into the house
once. Our cat was terrified of the dog. I grew up with a dog and a
cat living peacefully in the same house--we even had a cat nursing
from a dog alongside the puppies! But our cat really is terrified of
this dog. If we got a dog, what if the cat never got used to it? (Dd
is also very attached to the cat and would be heartbroken if the cat
changed personalities or got hurt because of the dog)
So what would you do? Encourage her to get the dog, or encourage her
not to get the dog?
Sheila
My daughter is turning 10 this month. She really wants a dog. Dh
finally said ok, IF she can be the one to take care of it. Neither
he nor I want the responsibility--it's enough taking care of the
house and the kids! Neither of us mind having a dog around if she
does the work. We made it very clear to her all of the things she
would need to do. She wants a chocolate lab. We found a breeder and
are waiting for the dog to have puppies.
When we were at the library she got some books on dog care and read a
lot. She wrote stuff down from the book so that she could tell her
dad and I about it.
Then one day she came to me crying. She didn't know if she should
get the dog or not. She said she really wants it but doesn't know if
she will be able to handle the responsibility. She also said that
she's afraid she'll feel that it's unfair that her younger brothers
will enjoy playing with the dog but she'll end up doing all the
work. I was torn. I didn't know whether to encourage her to go for
something that she really wanted (a puppy) or to seriously consider
the reality of all the work a puppy would be. I ended up telling her
to just give it some more thought, that the decision was hers, and to
spend some time thinking about whether she wanted the dog badly
enough to be willing to spend the time on the puppy that she would
need to spend on it. I'd be paying 200 for this dog so I don't want
to just get it and give it away if it doesn't work out.
Now, a neighbor girl has gotten a lab puppy and has spent a lot of
time playing with it in our yard and even brought it into the house
once. Our cat was terrified of the dog. I grew up with a dog and a
cat living peacefully in the same house--we even had a cat nursing
from a dog alongside the puppies! But our cat really is terrified of
this dog. If we got a dog, what if the cat never got used to it? (Dd
is also very attached to the cat and would be heartbroken if the cat
changed personalities or got hurt because of the dog)
So what would you do? Encourage her to get the dog, or encourage her
not to get the dog?
Sheila
Nora or Devereaux Cannon
Our daughter wanted a dog from the day she first saw one. I do
not like dogs. I like and have cats, chickens emus etc. Dogs
eat chickens and chase cats all too often.
That said, here is what we did. Some of it may work for you.
First I did some research with folks who use assistance dogs -
they are very practical about their working dogs. In their
estimation essentially no kid is going to be able to take full
care taking responsibility for a dog, especially for training a
puppy. No matter how responsible and dedicated the owner is, we
are talking kids. Your daughter may vary in this, but it led me
to see the responsibility thing differently. She had to be old
enough dedicated enough to be the dog's emotional owner/"alpha
person". She didn't need to be old enough to drive to the vet's
or order Frontline Plus. 5 seemed to be about the right age for
that and was. She feeds the dog, brushes the dog (more or less
daily), plays with the dog because they go on rambles together.
She is a lost cause for training the dog - smart as Percy is, she
doesn't get long explanations of "When I do this, you do that,
good baby dog" and DD doesn't get Skinnerian modification as a
learning style, LOL.
Second we did breed research - a lab pretty as they are would
have driven us crazy, but a collie was a good idea. She on her
own selected collie as we researched, read stories, talked to
people who have dogs. I would be really sure that your daughter
has a good idea of what is involved in keeping a lab fully
occupied enough to be a happy dog - they are pretty and friendly
though.
Third - and this was a VERY helpful piece of advice - skip the
puppy stage if at all possible for your first time around. That
was the single happiest tid bit we got. Percy is a rescue dog
who came to us at about a year, mainly collie, fully vaxxd,
wormed, housebroken at so forth. We got to know her personality
and preferences before we took her; we knew she liked cats. Her
former owner still touches base from time to make sure she is a
happy dog. After almost 2 years with her, I would be willing to
undertake a puppy maybe. DD would love a dog who is not "fixed"
because she would like to see how mamma dogs raise puppies.
Dunno; may happen; am hugely glad we got a "broken" mostly grown
rescue to start with though.
not like dogs. I like and have cats, chickens emus etc. Dogs
eat chickens and chase cats all too often.
That said, here is what we did. Some of it may work for you.
First I did some research with folks who use assistance dogs -
they are very practical about their working dogs. In their
estimation essentially no kid is going to be able to take full
care taking responsibility for a dog, especially for training a
puppy. No matter how responsible and dedicated the owner is, we
are talking kids. Your daughter may vary in this, but it led me
to see the responsibility thing differently. She had to be old
enough dedicated enough to be the dog's emotional owner/"alpha
person". She didn't need to be old enough to drive to the vet's
or order Frontline Plus. 5 seemed to be about the right age for
that and was. She feeds the dog, brushes the dog (more or less
daily), plays with the dog because they go on rambles together.
She is a lost cause for training the dog - smart as Percy is, she
doesn't get long explanations of "When I do this, you do that,
good baby dog" and DD doesn't get Skinnerian modification as a
learning style, LOL.
Second we did breed research - a lab pretty as they are would
have driven us crazy, but a collie was a good idea. She on her
own selected collie as we researched, read stories, talked to
people who have dogs. I would be really sure that your daughter
has a good idea of what is involved in keeping a lab fully
occupied enough to be a happy dog - they are pretty and friendly
though.
Third - and this was a VERY helpful piece of advice - skip the
puppy stage if at all possible for your first time around. That
was the single happiest tid bit we got. Percy is a rescue dog
who came to us at about a year, mainly collie, fully vaxxd,
wormed, housebroken at so forth. We got to know her personality
and preferences before we took her; we knew she liked cats. Her
former owner still touches base from time to make sure she is a
happy dog. After almost 2 years with her, I would be willing to
undertake a puppy maybe. DD would love a dog who is not "fixed"
because she would like to see how mamma dogs raise puppies.
Dunno; may happen; am hugely glad we got a "broken" mostly grown
rescue to start with though.
----- Original Message -----
From: "kayb85" <sheran@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 5:23 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] pets/dogs
| Continuing the pet thread...
|
| My daughter is turning 10 this month. She really wants a dog.
Dh
| finally said ok, IF she can be the one to take care of it.
Neither
| he nor I want the responsibility--it's enough taking care of
the
| house and the kids! Neither of us mind having a dog around if
she
| does the work. We made it very clear to her all of the things
she
| would need to do. She wants a chocolate lab. We found a
breeder and
| are waiting for the dog to have puppies.
|
| When we were at the library she got some books on dog care and
read a
| lot. She wrote stuff down from the book so that she could tell
her
| dad and I about it.
Nora or Devereaux Cannon
Not to worry - when we bring animals into the world we are their
stewards - I never even turn down a rescue cat.
I would have a hard time suggesting a puppy video as a suitable
substitute for the collaborative homeschool project our Mama cat
is having with her kittens and our daughter. Every day one or
two wild things gets caught by Cat, who brings them up to the
deck (where kittens are) and who teaches anatomy and killing
methods to the babies and to DD. Cat has been bringing an extra
for DD in the past week so that she can take "hers" in to inspect
and dissect.
In addition to learning a good deal about how kittens learn to be
cats and about my tolerance for the risk of disease, it is a
first hand example of how important it is to have your mom show
you stuff. She has seen kittens who left mom at 6 weeks and
never figured out how to kill the creature they brought in to
show us. Terrified mice and baby bunnies released in the den are
really worse than dinner on the deck.
stewards - I never even turn down a rescue cat.
I would have a hard time suggesting a puppy video as a suitable
substitute for the collaborative homeschool project our Mama cat
is having with her kittens and our daughter. Every day one or
two wild things gets caught by Cat, who brings them up to the
deck (where kittens are) and who teaches anatomy and killing
methods to the babies and to DD. Cat has been bringing an extra
for DD in the past week so that she can take "hers" in to inspect
and dissect.
In addition to learning a good deal about how kittens learn to be
cats and about my tolerance for the risk of disease, it is a
first hand example of how important it is to have your mom show
you stuff. She has seen kittens who left mom at 6 weeks and
never figured out how to kill the creature they brought in to
show us. Terrified mice and baby bunnies released in the den are
really worse than dinner on the deck.
----- Original Message -----
From: <treegoddess@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] pets/dogs
| Nora or Devereaux Cannon wrote:
|
| >After almost 2 years with her, I would be willing to
| >undertake a puppy maybe. DD would love a dog who is not
"fixed"
| >because she would like to see how mamma dogs raise puppies.
| >
|
| May I suggest that you rent a video or visit someone with a
Mama and
| pups? That seems to me an awful reason to breed a dog -- there
are
| _thousands_ of dogs killed every weeks because there are no
homes for
| them. Please....won't you consider the long term? :)
|
| On getting a rescued dog -- good for you! I love hearing about
dogs who
| get a second chance. :D
|
| TreeGoddess
|
|
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Mary
From: "kayb85" <sheran@...>
<<So what would you do? Encourage her to get the dog, or encourage her
not to get the dog? >>
If it was me, I would say let's get the dog. I would also be very aware that
there will be times when I will be doing something for or to the dog. The
cat will get used to the dog. If the dog isn't just let loose in the house
to scare the crap out of the cat, the cat will adjust. It will take time and
effort and patience above and beyond the puppy situation itself. I would
want my daughter to enjoy and love this opportunity and also not feel guilty
about it.
IF you really don't want to spend any time at all taking care of this dog,
don't get it.
Mary B
<<So what would you do? Encourage her to get the dog, or encourage her
not to get the dog? >>
If it was me, I would say let's get the dog. I would also be very aware that
there will be times when I will be doing something for or to the dog. The
cat will get used to the dog. If the dog isn't just let loose in the house
to scare the crap out of the cat, the cat will adjust. It will take time and
effort and patience above and beyond the puppy situation itself. I would
want my daughter to enjoy and love this opportunity and also not feel guilty
about it.
IF you really don't want to spend any time at all taking care of this dog,
don't get it.
Mary B
jmcseals SEALS
I had a big long rant about this but my computer died. Probably a good
thing. :) I'll just leave you with your daughter's wise words:
<<Then one day she came to me crying. She didn't know if she should
get the dog or not. She said she really wants it but doesn't know if
she will be able to handle the responsibility. She also said that
she's afraid she'll feel that it's unfair that her younger brothers
will enjoy playing with the dog but she'll end up doing all the
work. I was torn. >>
Honestly, I'm not seeing why you are torn. You have a wonderful answer from
your own child above.
If it isn't clear enough...DON'T GET THE DOG!
Jennifer
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thing. :) I'll just leave you with your daughter's wise words:
<<Then one day she came to me crying. She didn't know if she should
get the dog or not. She said she really wants it but doesn't know if
she will be able to handle the responsibility. She also said that
she's afraid she'll feel that it's unfair that her younger brothers
will enjoy playing with the dog but she'll end up doing all the
work. I was torn. >>
Honestly, I'm not seeing why you are torn. You have a wonderful answer from
your own child above.
If it isn't clear enough...DON'T GET THE DOG!
Jennifer
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http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
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[email protected]
In a message dated 6/8/03 5:45:33 PM, dcannon@... writes:
<< Not to worry - when we bring animals into the world we are their
stewards - >>
YOU can bring animals into the world!?
I brought three little humans. That was hard enough. <g>
Sandra
<< Not to worry - when we bring animals into the world we are their
stewards - >>
YOU can bring animals into the world!?
I brought three little humans. That was hard enough. <g>
Sandra
Nora or Devereaux Cannon
Ah, but we are many talented here, LOL - and have typographicals
of grandeur beyond our means!
of grandeur beyond our means!
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] pets/dogs
|
| In a message dated 6/8/03 5:45:33 PM, dcannon@... writes:
|
| << Not to worry - when we bring animals into the world we are
their
|
| stewards - >>
|
| YOU can bring animals into the world!?
| I brought three little humans. That was hard enough. <g>
|
| Sandra
|
| ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor ---------------------~-->
| Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's
Important Questions.
| http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/0xXolB/TM
| ---------------------------------------------------------------
------~->
|
| ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject
line! ~~~~
|
| If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list,
please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll
(fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener
(HEM-Editor@...).
|
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address an email to:
| [email protected]
|
| Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
|
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
|
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/8/2003 5:32:08 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
she truly wants the dog. But to be told by your mother that it's all on your
shoulders, no help from us, is a really crappy way to encourage an interest.
I will find a way to help my children follow any interest they have, maybe
not all at the same time, we all have to prioritize.
But telling her she's on her own is not the kindest way to help her decide if
she wants a dog.
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> ">So what would you do? Encourage her to get the dog, or encourage herEncourage thoughtful research and following of her heart, which sounds like
> not to get the dog?
she truly wants the dog. But to be told by your mother that it's all on your
shoulders, no help from us, is a really crappy way to encourage an interest.
I will find a way to help my children follow any interest they have, maybe
not all at the same time, we all have to prioritize.
But telling her she's on her own is not the kindest way to help her decide if
she wants a dog.
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: "Nora or Devereaux Cannon" <dcannon@...>
<<I would be really sure that your daughter
has a good idea of what is involved in keeping a lab fully
occupied enough to be a happy dog - they are pretty and friendly
though.>>
I've had Labs, they are great dogs. And not anymore work than breeds that
size. Very friendly and loving and family oriented. Just watch that tail,
they can clear off any table tail height in a matter of a seconds!!!! Labs
are easy to have as long as you are around for them. Now Jack Russels or
Border Collies and you are talking about a lot of work.
Mary B
<<I would be really sure that your daughter
has a good idea of what is involved in keeping a lab fully
occupied enough to be a happy dog - they are pretty and friendly
though.>>
I've had Labs, they are great dogs. And not anymore work than breeds that
size. Very friendly and loving and family oriented. Just watch that tail,
they can clear off any table tail height in a matter of a seconds!!!! Labs
are easy to have as long as you are around for them. Now Jack Russels or
Border Collies and you are talking about a lot of work.
Mary B
Mary
From: "jmcseals SEALS" <jmcseals@...>
<<Honestly, I'm not seeing why you are torn. You have a wonderful answer
from
your own child above.>>
From reading the post, that's not the feel I got from it. It seemed to me
that mom was impressing very much on the child how this dog would be fully
her responsibility. I got the impression that no help was in sight with this
dog. Maybe the daughter sees it that way too, and as much as she really
wants this dog, knows that there will be times when she won't want to clean
up puke or walk it or bath it. And she's afraid of getting a dog to love,
feeling guilty about not being there 100% and having to get rid of the dog.
That's just what I saw. I could be wrong.
Mary B
<<Honestly, I'm not seeing why you are torn. You have a wonderful answer
from
your own child above.>>
From reading the post, that's not the feel I got from it. It seemed to me
that mom was impressing very much on the child how this dog would be fully
her responsibility. I got the impression that no help was in sight with this
dog. Maybe the daughter sees it that way too, and as much as she really
wants this dog, knows that there will be times when she won't want to clean
up puke or walk it or bath it. And she's afraid of getting a dog to love,
feeling guilty about not being there 100% and having to get rid of the dog.
That's just what I saw. I could be wrong.
Mary B
jmcseals SEALS
I'm lost. I felt the same way you did. I felt like the child *really*
wanted a dog but felt overwhelmed at the thought of being soley responsibile
for it. I suggested she NOT get a dog. Am I misunderstanding your post??
It seems like we are saying the same thing! :)
Jennifer
<<From reading the post, that's not the feel I got from it. It seemed to me
that mom was impressing very much on the child how this dog would be fully
her responsibility. I got the impression that no help was in sight with this
dog. Maybe the daughter sees it that way too, and as much as she really
wants this dog, knows that there will be times when she won't want to clean
up puke or walk it or bath it. And she's afraid of getting a dog to love,
feeling guilty about not being there 100% and having to get rid of the dog.
That's just what I saw. I could be wrong.>>
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wanted a dog but felt overwhelmed at the thought of being soley responsibile
for it. I suggested she NOT get a dog. Am I misunderstanding your post??
It seems like we are saying the same thing! :)
Jennifer
<<From reading the post, that's not the feel I got from it. It seemed to me
that mom was impressing very much on the child how this dog would be fully
her responsibility. I got the impression that no help was in sight with this
dog. Maybe the daughter sees it that way too, and as much as she really
wants this dog, knows that there will be times when she won't want to clean
up puke or walk it or bath it. And she's afraid of getting a dog to love,
feeling guilty about not being there 100% and having to get rid of the dog.
That's just what I saw. I could be wrong.>>
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Mary
From: <SandraDodd@...>
<<YOU can bring animals into the world!?
I brought three little humans. That was hard enough. <g>>
Another funny to me from Sandra!!
Reminds me of a story. (I'm starting to feel like Sophia) Picture this, one
of those birthing stories on cable. The mom was having the baby at home and
the older brother was there to see the new baby come into the world. The
little boy was about 4. Well mom was screaming up a storm and scared the
crap out of the little kid. They finally get him calmed down and she quiets
up when you could see the baby's head. So they get the little boy to come
and see the baby and all he sees is a full head of wet black hair (fur?) and
screams with such excitement for the first time in hours that mom is having
a puppy!!!!! Poor little thing must have been disappointed.
Mary B
<<YOU can bring animals into the world!?
I brought three little humans. That was hard enough. <g>>
Another funny to me from Sandra!!
Reminds me of a story. (I'm starting to feel like Sophia) Picture this, one
of those birthing stories on cable. The mom was having the baby at home and
the older brother was there to see the new baby come into the world. The
little boy was about 4. Well mom was screaming up a storm and scared the
crap out of the little kid. They finally get him calmed down and she quiets
up when you could see the baby's head. So they get the little boy to come
and see the baby and all he sees is a full head of wet black hair (fur?) and
screams with such excitement for the first time in hours that mom is having
a puppy!!!!! Poor little thing must have been disappointed.
Mary B
Mary
From: "jmcseals SEALS" <jmcseals@...>
<<I'm lost. I felt the same way you did. I felt like the child *really*
wanted a dog but felt overwhelmed at the thought of being soley responsibile
for it. I suggested she NOT get a dog. Am I misunderstanding your post??
It seems like we are saying the same thing! :)>>
I was actually suggesting that if the mom wanted to do what the daughter
wanted, she should get the dog. I think it sounds like mom is trying to talk
the daughter out of it, which is not, in my impression what the daughter
wants. I don't feel that's being supportive at all.
Mary B
<<I'm lost. I felt the same way you did. I felt like the child *really*
wanted a dog but felt overwhelmed at the thought of being soley responsibile
for it. I suggested she NOT get a dog. Am I misunderstanding your post??
It seems like we are saying the same thing! :)>>
I was actually suggesting that if the mom wanted to do what the daughter
wanted, she should get the dog. I think it sounds like mom is trying to talk
the daughter out of it, which is not, in my impression what the daughter
wants. I don't feel that's being supportive at all.
Mary B
jmcseals SEALS
<<I was actually suggesting that if the mom wanted to do what the daughter
wanted, she should get the dog. I think it sounds like mom is trying to talk
the daughter out of it, which is not, in my impression what the daughter
wants. I don't feel that's being supportive at all.>>
Ah-ha, I gotcha! I knew I had to be missing something. Although, I still
stand by not getting the dog. I think she needs physical support as well as
emotional suuport and encouragement. Perhaps her wanting a dog so
desperately will help Mom and Dad change their minds and decide to help out.
Perhaps the brother's will want a dog enough to be willing to help out?
Asking a 10 yr old to completely care for a dog is just too much to ask,
imo.
Jennifer
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wanted, she should get the dog. I think it sounds like mom is trying to talk
the daughter out of it, which is not, in my impression what the daughter
wants. I don't feel that's being supportive at all.>>
Ah-ha, I gotcha! I knew I had to be missing something. Although, I still
stand by not getting the dog. I think she needs physical support as well as
emotional suuport and encouragement. Perhaps her wanting a dog so
desperately will help Mom and Dad change their minds and decide to help out.
Perhaps the brother's will want a dog enough to be willing to help out?
Asking a 10 yr old to completely care for a dog is just too much to ask,
imo.
Jennifer
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kayb85
lol! I'll clear up the confusion. Yes, you are both right. The
child wants the dog but felt overwhelmed at the thought of being
solely responsible for it. She's also worried that the dog might
chew some things up, and she's worried about her cat.
I want to see her get a dog if she wants one. But quite frankly,
with three children making messes in the house all day, I can barely
keep up with the housework now. On one hand, I can barely fathom how
I would be able to take care of a puppy on top of taking care of the
little ones and the house. On the other hand, I really want to help
her have a dog and tell myself if I just make myself be real
disciplined that I can make myself keep up with all the work.
Sometimes I feel so guilty with the whole unschooling thing--like I
should be able to give them so much more than I'm capable of giving.
:(
Sheila
child wants the dog but felt overwhelmed at the thought of being
solely responsible for it. She's also worried that the dog might
chew some things up, and she's worried about her cat.
I want to see her get a dog if she wants one. But quite frankly,
with three children making messes in the house all day, I can barely
keep up with the housework now. On one hand, I can barely fathom how
I would be able to take care of a puppy on top of taking care of the
little ones and the house. On the other hand, I really want to help
her have a dog and tell myself if I just make myself be real
disciplined that I can make myself keep up with all the work.
Sometimes I feel so guilty with the whole unschooling thing--like I
should be able to give them so much more than I'm capable of giving.
:(
Sheila
> <<I'm lost. I felt the same way you did. I felt like the child*really*
> wanted a dog but felt overwhelmed at the thought of being soleyresponsibile
> for it. I suggested she NOT get a dog. Am I misunderstanding yourpost??
> It seems like we are saying the same thing! :)>>daughter
>
>
> I was actually suggesting that if the mom wanted to do what the
> wanted, she should get the dog. I think it sounds like mom istrying to talk
> the daughter out of it, which is not, in my impression what thedaughter
> wants. I don't feel that's being supportive at all.
>
> Mary B
jmcseals SEALS
<<Sometimes I feel so guilty with the whole unschooling thing--like I
should be able to give them so much more than I'm capable of giving.
:( >>
Don't be sad! I'm willing to bet if you provide a supportive environment
for her to have a dog that she will do just fine! Help her work out a rough
schedule and talk about the possibility of adopting. Our shelters here will
allow you to come in and groom or play with the animals and some even allow
trial stays for 1-3 nights. I think a puppy would be hard for your family
at this time. But there are plenty of wonderful dogs at the shelters that
need your daughter and her love and dedication! Here, it costs anywhere
from $35-75. With the rest of the money, you could sign up for obedience
training and buy initial supplies! (Even if the dog is trained it would be
great for them to go to class together and learn how to work together!)
It sounds like you are feeling overwhelmed yourself! Take your kids on a
trip to the shelter. You'll be glad you did!
Jennifer
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
should be able to give them so much more than I'm capable of giving.
:( >>
Don't be sad! I'm willing to bet if you provide a supportive environment
for her to have a dog that she will do just fine! Help her work out a rough
schedule and talk about the possibility of adopting. Our shelters here will
allow you to come in and groom or play with the animals and some even allow
trial stays for 1-3 nights. I think a puppy would be hard for your family
at this time. But there are plenty of wonderful dogs at the shelters that
need your daughter and her love and dedication! Here, it costs anywhere
from $35-75. With the rest of the money, you could sign up for obedience
training and buy initial supplies! (Even if the dog is trained it would be
great for them to go to class together and learn how to work together!)
It sounds like you are feeling overwhelmed yourself! Take your kids on a
trip to the shelter. You'll be glad you did!
Jennifer
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Lewis
***Neither
he nor I want the responsibility--it's enough taking care of the
house and the kids! Neither of us mind having a dog around if she
does the work. We made it very clear to her all of the things she
would need to do. ***
I think that's a lot of responsibility for a kid who's never had a dog.
She can't know how tired she's going to be when the puppy has to go
outside at two AM. She can't know now what it will be like if he has an
accident and she needs to clean it up when she's sick. Yes, a dog is a
big responsibility and if the parents are unwilling to do it, it seems
unrealistic to expect a ten year old to do it.
And what happens if she fails to meet your expectations of care giving?
Will you make her give up her puppy, a dear friend?
What are your hopes for her? Do you want her to be a dedicated dog
owner, or a happy little girl?
If you really can't bear the responsibility of a dog right now, tell her
why. Don't make it her burden.
A dog should be a joy, not a job. She should have a wonderful friend in
a puppy not a chore. You'll ruin it for her.
Deb L
he nor I want the responsibility--it's enough taking care of the
house and the kids! Neither of us mind having a dog around if she
does the work. We made it very clear to her all of the things she
would need to do. ***
I think that's a lot of responsibility for a kid who's never had a dog.
She can't know how tired she's going to be when the puppy has to go
outside at two AM. She can't know now what it will be like if he has an
accident and she needs to clean it up when she's sick. Yes, a dog is a
big responsibility and if the parents are unwilling to do it, it seems
unrealistic to expect a ten year old to do it.
And what happens if she fails to meet your expectations of care giving?
Will you make her give up her puppy, a dear friend?
What are your hopes for her? Do you want her to be a dedicated dog
owner, or a happy little girl?
If you really can't bear the responsibility of a dog right now, tell her
why. Don't make it her burden.
A dog should be a joy, not a job. She should have a wonderful friend in
a puppy not a chore. You'll ruin it for her.
Deb L
Mary
From: "jmcseals SEALS" <jmcseals@...>
<<Ah-ha, I gotcha! I knew I had to be missing something. Although, I still
stand by not getting the dog. I think she needs physical support as well as
emotional suuport and encouragement. Perhaps her wanting a dog so
desperately will help Mom and Dad change their minds and decide to help out.
Perhaps the brother's will want a dog enough to be willing to help out?
Asking a 10 yr old to completely care for a dog is just too much to ask,
imo.>>
I agree yet I really want that little girl to have a dog!!!
Mary B
<<Ah-ha, I gotcha! I knew I had to be missing something. Although, I still
stand by not getting the dog. I think she needs physical support as well as
emotional suuport and encouragement. Perhaps her wanting a dog so
desperately will help Mom and Dad change their minds and decide to help out.
Perhaps the brother's will want a dog enough to be willing to help out?
Asking a 10 yr old to completely care for a dog is just too much to ask,
imo.>>
I agree yet I really want that little girl to have a dog!!!
Mary B
Mary
From: "jmcseals SEALS" <jmcseals@...>
<<I think a puppy would be hard for your family
at this time. But there are plenty of wonderful dogs at the shelters that
need your daughter and her love and dedication! Here, it costs anywhere
from $35-75. With the rest of the money, you could sign up for obedience
training and buy initial supplies! (Even if the dog is trained it would be
great for them to go to class together and learn how to work together!)>>
I agree. We can't give our kids everything. But we can try to provide them
with what is really important to them at certain times and be supportive of
those wants and needs. A puppy is a lot of work and getting an older dog
would certainly help cut down on that whole time thing. Plus explain to your
daugher what a great thing you would be doing not just for her but for this
lonely dog who has no home now. Visit the Humane Society and check out your
options. Visit often and don't just decide on what's there because your
daughter wants a dog. The shelters generally try real hard to be honest
about the dogs they place. They don't want an unhappy family bringing the
dog back. Explain that there are children and a cat. The shelter here states
whether they are use to children and other animals, whether they are
housebroken or not. Older dogs are less likely to chew also. Plus you can
see the size and decide short or long hair. I'm wanting to visit the shelter
now just by talking about it.
The important thing is to take your time chosing. Good luck and let us know
how it goes.
Mary B
<<I think a puppy would be hard for your family
at this time. But there are plenty of wonderful dogs at the shelters that
need your daughter and her love and dedication! Here, it costs anywhere
from $35-75. With the rest of the money, you could sign up for obedience
training and buy initial supplies! (Even if the dog is trained it would be
great for them to go to class together and learn how to work together!)>>
I agree. We can't give our kids everything. But we can try to provide them
with what is really important to them at certain times and be supportive of
those wants and needs. A puppy is a lot of work and getting an older dog
would certainly help cut down on that whole time thing. Plus explain to your
daugher what a great thing you would be doing not just for her but for this
lonely dog who has no home now. Visit the Humane Society and check out your
options. Visit often and don't just decide on what's there because your
daughter wants a dog. The shelters generally try real hard to be honest
about the dogs they place. They don't want an unhappy family bringing the
dog back. Explain that there are children and a cat. The shelter here states
whether they are use to children and other animals, whether they are
housebroken or not. Older dogs are less likely to chew also. Plus you can
see the size and decide short or long hair. I'm wanting to visit the shelter
now just by talking about it.
The important thing is to take your time chosing. Good luck and let us know
how it goes.
Mary B
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/9/2003 12:15:09 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
to work out would be good?
Also, FORGET a puppy!! Yikes. That IS a lot of work when you already have
several youngish children. A well-trained dog might be the answer for all of you.
I think respecting your own boundaries is important too.
So what about a greyhound adoption? They are very, very calm, have super
short hair (so no fur messes), sweet dispositions and go through a "foster" home
to adjust them to regular home life.
You get to rescue a dog AND get an animal that won't need much work to adapt
to family life.
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> <I want to see her get a dog if she wants one. But quite frankly,Maybe pointing out that you could use some help with cleaning up for the pet
> with three children making messes in the house all day, I can barely
> keep up with the housework now. On one hand, I can barely fathom how
> I would be able to take care of a puppy on top of taking care of the
> little ones and the house. On the other hand, I really want to help
> her have a dog and tell myself if I just make myself be real
> disciplined that I can make myself keep up with all the work.
to work out would be good?
Also, FORGET a puppy!! Yikes. That IS a lot of work when you already have
several youngish children. A well-trained dog might be the answer for all of you.
I think respecting your own boundaries is important too.
So what about a greyhound adoption? They are very, very calm, have super
short hair (so no fur messes), sweet dispositions and go through a "foster" home
to adjust them to regular home life.
You get to rescue a dog AND get an animal that won't need much work to adapt
to family life.
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: <starsuncloud@...>
<<So what about a greyhound adoption? They are very, very calm, have super
short hair (so no fur messes), sweet dispositions and go through a "foster"
home
to adjust them to regular home life.
You get to rescue a dog AND get an animal that won't need much work to adapt
to family life.>>
And generally no doggy smell either. The only thing that I wonder about with
greyhounds though is the cat. Generally that isn't a good idea with that
kind of dog.
Another idea that Ren mentioned, rescue dogs. If your daughter and you have
a certain breed in mind, there's usually a rescue group for that breed.
Mary B
<<So what about a greyhound adoption? They are very, very calm, have super
short hair (so no fur messes), sweet dispositions and go through a "foster"
home
to adjust them to regular home life.
You get to rescue a dog AND get an animal that won't need much work to adapt
to family life.>>
And generally no doggy smell either. The only thing that I wonder about with
greyhounds though is the cat. Generally that isn't a good idea with that
kind of dog.
Another idea that Ren mentioned, rescue dogs. If your daughter and you have
a certain breed in mind, there's usually a rescue group for that breed.
Mary B
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/9/2003 2:18:38 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
homes test all of that out first, so you should be able to get one from a home
that had already put the dog with cats and other small animals to make sure it
wouldn't react inappropriately.
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> >And generally no doggy smell either. The only thing that I wonder aboutYou can actually request one that is fine with small animals. The foster
> with
> greyhounds though is the cat. Generally that isn't a good idea with that
> kind of dog.
homes test all of that out first, so you should be able to get one from a home
that had already put the dog with cats and other small animals to make sure it
wouldn't react inappropriately.
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma2kids
>> Sometimes I feel so guilty with the whole unschooling thing--likeI should be able to give them so much more than I'm capable of
giving. :( >>
Guilt will definitely not get you closer to where you think you
should be. And it won't keep you in the happy, engaged, loving frame
of mind that's the most conducive to the flow of unschooling.
Let go of the guilt and do what you can.
The dog answer does not have to be yes or no. Those are not the only
two choices. I know your dd has picked out a breeder and is wanting a
puppy, but is that her only option? Someone else suggested getting an
older pup that's already been trained up a bit. We rescued a dog from
the shelter at 18 months old and it's been great. We bypassed all
those really intense puppy months.
Another choice might be to consider waiting 6 months or to see if
life settles down a bit to where you could help her out more. Or
going for a smaller breed of dog that's maybe not as much work (less
poop to clean up, less fur to comb, etc.)
I don't have *your* answer. You will find that for yourself. I just
want to remind you to consider the multiple options available between
yes and no.
Life is good.
~Mary
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/8/03 10:59:04 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:
<< What are your hopes for her? Do you want her to be a dedicated dog
owner, or a happy little girl? >>
I would think if another aspect too. You have a child who wants to have a
dog. She doesn't live on her own. She lives with a family. So would the dog,
live with the whole family.
A little girl isn't ready for the full responsibility. But she wants a dog.
And unlike a horse, a dog is pretty [removing the word "doable" due to prior
conversations on this list]... feasible.
A dog could live much longer than your daughter would be home, and you can't
necessarily force her to take the dog. What if she's in a dorm, or going
abroad? The dog would live at your house, maybe even if your daughter moved.
What if something happened to your daughter so that she couldn't physically
take care of the dog anymore?
So think of this: What if you had a daughter now who couldn't physically
take care of her own biological needs, and you had to take care of her day and
night. Many people have children like that. Think in terms of all the work you
are NOT having to do, and how little work a dog is compared to that.
So if you have a healthy, happy child who really wants a dog, and it will be
a little more work for you, MAYBE you should say yes just out of gratitude for
your child's health.
It's convoluted, but I've thought things like that lots of times. <g>
Seriously. If I have a kid who wants to do something (and I do have three of
them, and they frequently want to do something) what does it say about my
relationship with them, about their relative importance and worth, if I ONLY say
yes when it won't inconvenience me? Do they have just a little corner of my
life or are they central? Do they have just a little sliver of reality in our
home or are they a big, real part of the family?
Sandra
<< What are your hopes for her? Do you want her to be a dedicated dog
owner, or a happy little girl? >>
I would think if another aspect too. You have a child who wants to have a
dog. She doesn't live on her own. She lives with a family. So would the dog,
live with the whole family.
A little girl isn't ready for the full responsibility. But she wants a dog.
And unlike a horse, a dog is pretty [removing the word "doable" due to prior
conversations on this list]... feasible.
A dog could live much longer than your daughter would be home, and you can't
necessarily force her to take the dog. What if she's in a dorm, or going
abroad? The dog would live at your house, maybe even if your daughter moved.
What if something happened to your daughter so that she couldn't physically
take care of the dog anymore?
So think of this: What if you had a daughter now who couldn't physically
take care of her own biological needs, and you had to take care of her day and
night. Many people have children like that. Think in terms of all the work you
are NOT having to do, and how little work a dog is compared to that.
So if you have a healthy, happy child who really wants a dog, and it will be
a little more work for you, MAYBE you should say yes just out of gratitude for
your child's health.
It's convoluted, but I've thought things like that lots of times. <g>
Seriously. If I have a kid who wants to do something (and I do have three of
them, and they frequently want to do something) what does it say about my
relationship with them, about their relative importance and worth, if I ONLY say
yes when it won't inconvenience me? Do they have just a little corner of my
life or are they central? Do they have just a little sliver of reality in our
home or are they a big, real part of the family?
Sandra
Mary
From: <SandraDodd@...>
<<Seriously. If I have a kid who wants to do something (and I do have three
of
them, and they frequently want to do something) what does it say about my
relationship with them, about their relative importance and worth, if I ONLY
say
yes when it won't inconvenience me? Do they have just a little corner of my
life or are they central? Do they have just a little sliver of reality in
our
home or are they a big, real part of the family?>>
Wow Sandra the way you think. Can't say I ever thought about that. I guess I
just do things like that without thinking really why. Thanks again. And
thanks for finding another word for doable in the dog context!!!
Mary B
<<Seriously. If I have a kid who wants to do something (and I do have three
of
them, and they frequently want to do something) what does it say about my
relationship with them, about their relative importance and worth, if I ONLY
say
yes when it won't inconvenience me? Do they have just a little corner of my
life or are they central? Do they have just a little sliver of reality in
our
home or are they a big, real part of the family?>>
Wow Sandra the way you think. Can't say I ever thought about that. I guess I
just do things like that without thinking really why. Thanks again. And
thanks for finding another word for doable in the dog context!!!
Mary B
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/9/2003 12:01:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
them were originally mine. But through way of children who went to college, who
moved out and those who still live at home, they are here.
They are not "mine" but they are MINE. Just in this year, my youngest son,
oldest child at home called me on my way home from out to town to "break the
news". The puppy was here, the puppy was staying. We had TALKED at length
about NOT getting the puppy. For all the reasons stated. He already HAS a dog, I
take care of it. He loves her but she's old.
Even though I really didn't want a dog and I REALLY didn't want a puppy that
I have to watch day and night and sleeps with me and my dh, I now have one. I
guess I could just ship the dog off to the pound or something but I just
can't. My son LOVES the dog, he's busy. I knew he would be busy. He does take
her with him when he can and if I remind him she might like to go. I feed her,
I play with her, I let her out, I sleep with her.
I didn't want her, she loves me, I love her, has it only been three and a
half months since she came?
Sometimes we honor our children and it makes more work for us. Sometimes
it's way more work than we wanted but I see the joy in my son's face when he
comes in from work or class or a ballgame and HIS puppy runs to greet him. In my
opinion it's way better than a grandchild at his young age. It lets him know
real quick that no matter what his girlfriend says, he is NOT ready for
anymore responsibility than the puppy, she's too much at times.
I HATED the IDEA of yet another puppy but I LOVE the puppy that is here, work
and all, chewed clothes and all, crazy face kisses and all, nighttime
sneaking under the covers and all.
Sorta like the food you were hesitant to try but your mother said it was oh
so good, maybe your daughter is nudging you towards something you might very
well love. The dog however will be around longer than one bite of food.
BTW we have black labs and LOVE them, the new puppy is a pit bull, one of the
reasons I kept saying NO, but I researched her breed and have a whole new
perspective on them.
Good luck on your decision.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> I would think if another aspect too. You have a child who wants to have aAll the things Sandra said about a dog are true. I have five dogs, none of
> dog. She doesn't live on her own. She lives with a family. So would the
> dog,
> live with the whole family.
>
them were originally mine. But through way of children who went to college, who
moved out and those who still live at home, they are here.
They are not "mine" but they are MINE. Just in this year, my youngest son,
oldest child at home called me on my way home from out to town to "break the
news". The puppy was here, the puppy was staying. We had TALKED at length
about NOT getting the puppy. For all the reasons stated. He already HAS a dog, I
take care of it. He loves her but she's old.
Even though I really didn't want a dog and I REALLY didn't want a puppy that
I have to watch day and night and sleeps with me and my dh, I now have one. I
guess I could just ship the dog off to the pound or something but I just
can't. My son LOVES the dog, he's busy. I knew he would be busy. He does take
her with him when he can and if I remind him she might like to go. I feed her,
I play with her, I let her out, I sleep with her.
I didn't want her, she loves me, I love her, has it only been three and a
half months since she came?
Sometimes we honor our children and it makes more work for us. Sometimes
it's way more work than we wanted but I see the joy in my son's face when he
comes in from work or class or a ballgame and HIS puppy runs to greet him. In my
opinion it's way better than a grandchild at his young age. It lets him know
real quick that no matter what his girlfriend says, he is NOT ready for
anymore responsibility than the puppy, she's too much at times.
I HATED the IDEA of yet another puppy but I LOVE the puppy that is here, work
and all, chewed clothes and all, crazy face kisses and all, nighttime
sneaking under the covers and all.
Sorta like the food you were hesitant to try but your mother said it was oh
so good, maybe your daughter is nudging you towards something you might very
well love. The dog however will be around longer than one bite of food.
BTW we have black labs and LOVE them, the new puppy is a pit bull, one of the
reasons I kept saying NO, but I researched her breed and have a whole new
perspective on them.
Good luck on your decision.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I have been thinking about the dog conversations and when I saw this one I
thought I would suggest a site. <A href="http://www.iams.com">www.iams.com</A> Its also the Eucanuba site but I
don't think I am spelling that correctly. Anyway you can go there and type what
you would like in a dog and it will pull up a list of dogs that would work for
you.
We have 3 dogs. Two Brittany's and one shepard/lab mix. The last is a good
dog but big and sheds wicked and still runs to the neighbors (they have boarder
collies)
The Brittany's are soft, loving, they love to please and shed very little if
at all. They do chew, poop and pee they are still pups. One is 6 months and
the other is 2 months.
I have to say though when I was little I always asked for a dog. (We had them
when my parents where together) Every Birthday I said that's all I wanted and
every year I was crushed it never happened. Mom always bought a bike or some
other gift I didn't want. I have had dogs since I moved out and that works
fine I will always remember how much I longed for one.
When we got the Brits our 10 yr. old son said he would help. He does some
times but mostly we take care of them. The female follows me everywhere even to
the potty its maddening at times but she is a great dog it's well worth sharing
the bathroom with her.
As for pooping there are foods that produce less poop.
Laura D
two
~Mary
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thought I would suggest a site. <A href="http://www.iams.com">www.iams.com</A> Its also the Eucanuba site but I
don't think I am spelling that correctly. Anyway you can go there and type what
you would like in a dog and it will pull up a list of dogs that would work for
you.
We have 3 dogs. Two Brittany's and one shepard/lab mix. The last is a good
dog but big and sheds wicked and still runs to the neighbors (they have boarder
collies)
The Brittany's are soft, loving, they love to please and shed very little if
at all. They do chew, poop and pee they are still pups. One is 6 months and
the other is 2 months.
I have to say though when I was little I always asked for a dog. (We had them
when my parents where together) Every Birthday I said that's all I wanted and
every year I was crushed it never happened. Mom always bought a bike or some
other gift I didn't want. I have had dogs since I moved out and that works
fine I will always remember how much I longed for one.
When we got the Brits our 10 yr. old son said he would help. He does some
times but mostly we take care of them. The female follows me everywhere even to
the potty its maddening at times but she is a great dog it's well worth sharing
the bathroom with her.
As for pooping there are foods that produce less poop.
Laura D
>>>>>In a message dated 6/9/2003 11:10:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,zenmomma@... writes:
> Guilt will definitely not get you closer to where you think youShould be.
> And it won't keep you in the happy, engaged, loving frameOf mind that's the
> most conducive to the flow of unschooling.Let go of the guilt and do what you
> can.The dog answer does not have to be yes or no. Those are not the only
two
> choices. I know your dd has picked out a breeder and is wanting apuppy, but
> is that her only option? Someone else suggested getting anolder pup that's
> already been trained up a bit. We rescued a dog fromthe shelter at 18 months
> old and it's been great. We bypassed allthose really intense puppy months.
> Another choice might be to consider waiting 6 months or to see iflife settles
> down a bit to where you could help her out more. Orgoing for a smaller
> breed of dog that's maybe not as much work (lesspoop to clean up, less fur to
> comb, etc.)I don't have *your* answer. You will find that for yourself. I just
> want to remind you to consider the multiple options available betweenyes and
> no.Life is good.
~Mary
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
> As for pooping there are foods that produce less poop.Oh, please tell me about the foods that produce less poop! lol
Sheila
[email protected]
While I understand the reasoning about getting a grown dog, if a child wants
a puppy and the mom gets an adult dog, that child didn't get a puppy.
Holly loves babies and wants a babysitting job as SOON as she's legally old
enough. She loves to play with toddlers who are just learning to talk. LOVES
it.
If she said "Mom, I want to play with a baby," and I said "Play with this
eight year old. He used to be a baby," that's not even NEARLY the same.
Marty wanted a puppy and we got a pound dog, knowing NOTHING about the breed
or anything. She was so little and grey and black, and Marty had a grey and
black blanket she could get lost in, and wouldn't see her without feeling for
her. We have photos of her and Marty, both much littler. There's a bond and a
reality that is there because she was a puppy. She grew up with Marty as her
main human. Marty's fourteen. If he leaves home for any reason that's not
dog friendly (boot camp, I think lately, but that mood might pass in him)
Gudrun will live here with us, which is still Marty's house.
She's brilliant, friendly, loves the cats (the cats will curl up and sleep
with her), and is a good watchdog.
Sandra
Sandra
a puppy and the mom gets an adult dog, that child didn't get a puppy.
Holly loves babies and wants a babysitting job as SOON as she's legally old
enough. She loves to play with toddlers who are just learning to talk. LOVES
it.
If she said "Mom, I want to play with a baby," and I said "Play with this
eight year old. He used to be a baby," that's not even NEARLY the same.
Marty wanted a puppy and we got a pound dog, knowing NOTHING about the breed
or anything. She was so little and grey and black, and Marty had a grey and
black blanket she could get lost in, and wouldn't see her without feeling for
her. We have photos of her and Marty, both much littler. There's a bond and a
reality that is there because she was a puppy. She grew up with Marty as her
main human. Marty's fourteen. If he leaves home for any reason that's not
dog friendly (boot camp, I think lately, but that mood might pass in him)
Gudrun will live here with us, which is still Marty's house.
She's brilliant, friendly, loves the cats (the cats will curl up and sleep
with her), and is a good watchdog.
Sandra
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/9/2003 2:19:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Older dogs often bond IMMEDIATELY to a human because they may have been
neglected and ignored.
Puppies take much longer to form bonds because they love everybody! The bond
forms gradually.
Some families can't handle the puppy thing. It's hard on everyone for a
while---sometimes even for a year or two until the pup matures enough to be
pleasant (depends on the breed and dog, of course). There are lots of breeds that
always look "puppy-ish". Beagles come to mind. Pugs. Most of the toys---that's
their job---perpetual puppies.
Our GSD was a rescue. Our bond couldn't be closer. We got her after a two
year period of horrible abuse and neglect.
The beagle is the cutest damned thing on four legs though! <G>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> There's a bond and aFallacy.
> reality that is there because she was a puppy.
Older dogs often bond IMMEDIATELY to a human because they may have been
neglected and ignored.
Puppies take much longer to form bonds because they love everybody! The bond
forms gradually.
Some families can't handle the puppy thing. It's hard on everyone for a
while---sometimes even for a year or two until the pup matures enough to be
pleasant (depends on the breed and dog, of course). There are lots of breeds that
always look "puppy-ish". Beagles come to mind. Pugs. Most of the toys---that's
their job---perpetual puppies.
Our GSD was a rescue. Our bond couldn't be closer. We got her after a two
year period of horrible abuse and neglect.
The beagle is the cutest damned thing on four legs though! <G>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]