[email protected]

In a message dated 5/26/2003 12:08:57 AM Eastern Standard Time,
anns@... writes:


> << I
> know lots of people think teenage pregnancy is such a "disaster" but
> really, I have some friends who had kids when they were teenagers and
> it *really* helped them iron out the kinks in their life! they are
> really efficient at raising their families and running a household and
> are now in their late 20s looking toward pursuing their own interests.
>
>
There is a whole "movement" (don't know what else to call it) of people who
believe that maybe our society's push for people to wait till their late 20's
to have children is a big mistake. Face it, biologically and historically,
once a girl started her period and a boy was "able", they could get married and
begin having children. I know no one would be happy if their 13 year old
daughter did this, I know I wouldn't, but why are we so distraught when a 17 or 18
yo girl decides to get married young and have a child? I also believe we give
young couples a "you're doomed" attitude from the get go, and not enough
support. "You're making a big mistake, you're on your own..."

Humans are made to have a very strong sexual drive in their teen years,
physically they are more able to have children during that time (how many people do
you know who chose to wait till their 30's who are now having problems
getting pregnant?) And we as a society tell them "No, no sex...no children, no
marriage for another 10 years or so...get your degree, get a good paying corporate
job, then have a baby and pay someone else to take care of it." I know with
me (mother at 19 years old) it would have been like trying to hold the ocean
back with a broom.

Nancy




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

I know with
> me (mother at 19 years old) it would have been like trying to hold the
ocean
> back with a broom.

I think you could say the same about my daughter (also a mother at 19). She
was 12 when I had Lars, and her maternal instincts kicked in big time. She
felt she waited a long time - 7 years! Took her a while to find a better
dad for the next ones though. Skye was an only for 6 years.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Betsy

**but why are we so distraught when a 17 or 18
yo girl decides to get married young and have a child?**

I think some of us are looking back on the guys we were with at 17 that
we thought we would love *forever* but it only lasted 6 months. Knowing
what you need from a relationship and picking the right guy the first
time seems unlikely, to me. Lots of women that I know seem to need to
work through their "daddy issues" in their first couple of
relationships. They want to re-enact their daddy relationship and "make
him love them" this time. Many people get through this and figure out
that they *don't* want a guy like dear dad after all.

Betsy, YMMV

Mary

From: "Betsy" <ecsamhill@...>

<<Knowing what you need from a relationship and picking the right guy the
first
time seems unlikely, to me>>


It took me 32 years to find Mr. Perfect for me. I really hope it doesn't
take my kids that long. Only because of all the assholes I went through to
get where I am now!!

Mary B

Peggy

From: CelticFrau@...

> In a message dated 5/26/2003 12:08:57 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> anns@... writes:
>>> << I
>>> know lots of people think teenage pregnancy is such a "disaster" but
>>> really, I have some friends who had kids when they were teenagers and
>>> it *really* helped them iron out the kinks in their life! they are
>>> really efficient at raising their families and running a household and
>>> are now in their late 20s looking toward pursuing their own interests.
>>>
>>>
>
> There is a whole "movement" (don't know what else to call it) of people who
> believe that maybe our society's push for people to wait till their late 20's
> to have children is a big mistake. Face it, biologically and historically,
> once a girl started her period and a boy was "able", they could get married and
> begin having children. I know no one would be happy if their 13 year old
> daughter did this, I know I wouldn't, but why are we so distraught when a 17 or 18
> yo girl decides to get married young and have a child? I also believe we give
> young couples a "you're doomed" attitude from the get go, and not enough
> support. "You're making a big mistake, you're on your own..."
>
> Humans are made to have a very strong sexual drive in their teen years,
> physically they are more able to have children during that time (how many people do
> you know who chose to wait till their 30's who are now having problems
> getting pregnant?) And we as a society tell them "No, no sex...no children, no
> marriage for another 10 years or so...get your degree, get a good paying corporate
> job, then have a baby and pay someone else to take care of it." I know with
> me (mother at 19 years old) it would have been like trying to hold the ocean
> back with a broom.
>
> Nancy

Well, let's talk reality here. We don't have "villages" anymore to help
support a young woman taking care of her young baby or the kind of
village that makes sure the baby is cared for if the mother proves
incompetent. A lucky few young teen girls are sane enough and lucky
enough to choose a stable partner who can help give them the support and
resources they need to parent in ways that a young baby needs and
deserves; statistically this is a very small percent of total teen
pregnancies. What happens to the rest? The young partner takes off and
leaves the young girl to scramble for resources for herself. Society
shames her and her child for their "failure". And then comes along
another "biological" truth: the stepfather.

I am sure there are many, many wonderful adoptive fathers out there,
but again real life statistics show that stepfather relationships are
much more likely to be problematic that biological ones. Consider this
quote from _Protecting the Gift_ by Gavin De Becker :

"Given that a male in any species is highly motivated to promote his
genetic legacy (and only his), violence in step-relationships is
predictable. Among many animals, males routinely kill offspring that not
theirs. Richard Wrangham explains: "The issue is confused with humans
because society expects a stepfather to accept a parental role with his
spouse's children, even though he evolutionarily he is a rival to the
previous father."

This isn't something that we usually take a good, hard, honest look at
in our society but I am sure it is something that welfare workers,
emergency medical personal, and police are all too aware of.

Peggy

[email protected]

CelticFrau@... writes:


<< but why are we so distraught when a 17 or 18
yo girl decides to get married young and have a child? >>

I think part of this may come from the shadow side of the feminist movement.
The dark side can be the message that women can't possibly be happy or
fulfilled as wives and mothers.


~Aimee

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/26/03 8:20:05 AM, CelticFrau@... writes:

<< I know no one would be happy if their 13 year old
daughter did this, I know I wouldn't, but why are we so distraught when a 17
or 18
yo girl decides to get married young and have a child? >>

Because they haven't finished *HIGH SCHOOL.*

High school is becoming the tail that's wagging our whole cultural dog.
It's pretty disgusting.

Holly would be a better mother RIGHT NOW than most adults I've ever met. If
she waits another twenty years, until she's in her 30's...

Yes, it's another thing we've taken so far away from what's natural that we
can't see the forest for the layers and layers and generations of denial that
there is a forest at all.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/26/03 9:58:06 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< I think some of us are looking back on the guys we were with at 17 that
we thought we would love *forever* but it only lasted 6 months. Knowing
what you need from a relationship and picking the right guy the first
time seems unlikely, to me. >>

Probably.

But if both kids' parents were supportive and helpful and INSTRUCTIVE about
how to have a relationship work (instead of just saying "don't have one") some
of our first loves could have worked out better!

How many people my age are going to have 50th wedding anniversaries?

Sandra

coyote's corner

Hi,
I think the feminist message is that of choice. If a woman chooses to be a wife and mother - fine - as long as it's her choice, a choice she makes not a choice that is forced upon her.

Many feminists are wives & mothers.
Janis

----- Original Message -----
From: AimeeL73@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Young Women Re: rite of passage and adulthood


CelticFrau@... writes:


<< but why are we so distraught when a 17 or 18
yo girl decides to get married young and have a child? >>

I think part of this may come from the shadow side of the feminist movement.
The dark side can be the message that women can't possibly be happy or
fulfilled as wives and mothers.


~Aimee

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary

From: <AimeeL73@...>

<< but why are we so distraught when a 17 or 18 yo girl decides to get
married young and have a child? >>


I just look at it like the person has such a long life (generally) ahead of
them, why start so much responsibility so soon? And having a family is a lot
of responsibility. And I think harder than it used to be. Less of a village
format in that a lot of people don't even have extended families around let
alone really good friends. I think there's a lot more pressure nowadays in
raising kids too. Just with what we are doing to the earth let alone each
other. I know many people shouldn't be having a family when they are 30 and
some 20 year olds that do quite well. Divorce is up and chances of staying
with the same person you had a baby with at 18 when you are 30 are slim. Not
that it's a bad thing for everyone, but another hardship to get over.

Maybe if we lived to be 35, having babies at 16 would make more sense to me.


Mary B

Karen McLaughlin

<< I think some of us are looking back on the guys we were with at 17 that
we thought we would love *forever* but it only lasted 6 months. Knowing
what you need from a relationship and picking the right guy the first
time seems unlikely, to me. >>

<< Probably.

But if both kids' parents were supportive and helpful and INSTRUCTIVE about
how to have a relationship work (instead of just saying "don't have one")
some
of our first loves could have worked out better!

How many people my age are going to have 50th wedding anniversaries? >>

Hey! My dh and I started dating when we were 16. And the day I met him
(which was about a week before we "officially" started dating) I knew there
was "something" about the guy. Some people would call it "love at first
sight" but to me it was like we'd been together before (like in another
lifetime) and found each other again. Got married at 24 (would have been a
lot sooner if I had my way but my parents were adamant we had to "wait until
we finished school" -and that wasn't even high school they were talking
about but university!!) Of course,we could've just eloped but I know I
wouldn't have been forgiven for that very easily.

Anyway, still happily married at 32 with 2 kids (well, most days anyway
<g>). And we have this standing joke about celebrating our 75th wedding
anniversary (we'd both be 99 - hey you never know!). Every year on our
wedding anniversary, we'll say, hey only 68 years (or whatever number is
appropriate that year) to go! You know, the best part is, I really would
love for us to have that many years together -we've already been together
half our lives and we've both grown and changed so much but somehow we've
been growing in the same direction - kinda cool, it doesn't always work that
way.

I guess my point is, choosing young doesn't always mean choosing wrong!

Karen

Heidi

> Maybe if we lived to be 35, having babies at 16 would make more
sense to me.
>
>
> Mary B

That makes sense, actually. If we only lived to 35, it would make
sense to start having babies earlier. But I think there never really
has been a time when "we" have only lived that long. The average
human life span may have been 35ish, but you gotta remember, infant
mortality was much higher back then, and if you average in life spans
of 2 months and 5 years and 1 1/2 years, that's going to take the
average down.

However, even back then, if a person lived past age 5, and didn't die
accidentally, his chances of living into his seventh decade were
pretty good.

HeidiC

Tracy

--- In [email protected], "Karen McLaughlin"
<karenmcl@i...> wrote:>
> I guess my point is, choosing young doesn't always mean choosing
wrong!


So True.
I guess that is what i was trying to get across in the post. Sorta
knowing how to love and accept yourself before you know how to love
someone else.

I KNOW am very protective of my daughters, but I also know one day,
maybe sooner then later, they will have choices they alone can make.
A healthy state of mind and good self esteem is something they need
to help them weigh things out for themselves.
Guilt, low self esteem and such don't do much to help ANY
relationship thrive. And most times is a sure bet to attract the
wrong kind of partner.

I think many girls {most likely not many daughters who unschool} are
raised to a certin sterotypes or with little communication other
then "Don't have sex or else this might happen" from their mom. And
some Moms just don't talk to their daughters because they themselves
are very uncomfortable and can't seem to find the right time.....
Tracy

melissa4123

"Guilt, low self esteem and such don't do much to help ANY
relationship thrive. And most times is a sure bet to attract the
wrong kind of partner."

I can personally tell you that this is soooo true. I lost my mother
when I was 16 and, to everyone around me, seemed to be handly the
situtation very well. I moved in with my grandmother (my father split
and moved out of state -he later died when I was 19). This was WAY
TOO much for someone of my age and experience to deal with. I fell
into a deep depresstion that lasted for years.

During these years, I met, "fell in love with," and moved in with a
(no other way to say this) loser. We were together for 4 years and in
all that time I think he worked less than a year total. I supported
us and, in my spare time, drank myself to sleep every night. He never
spoke kindly to me. Although he never actually hit me, the verbal
abuse was intense. I also gained about 80 lbs during this time.

When I FINALLY woke up to my life and realized that I needed to get
out, my life changed completely. I moved back in with grandma for
about 6 months while I worked on crawling out of the hole that I had
dug myself into. I re-gained my self esteem and came out of the
depression and boy what a difference that all made. I am now married
to a wonderful man and we have a beautiful baby girl (just turned 2).
I have the dream that I always wanted....to be married to a great guy
and be able to stay at home with my child. Now I'm adding to that
dream unschooling and life is wonderful!

Self esteem and belief in oneself is a remarkable thing.

Melissa

Kris

Lanora, 12, knows exactly what the consequences of sex are and is more
capable of handling this decision than I was in my 20's. Even at this age,
I could not stop her from having sex, it's an easy act to accomplish if
you're determined. I would be worried if she was clueless about sex and
it's potential for altering her life's course.

We have a strong basis of communication and she discusses her feelings and
urges with me. At this tender age she has already been dumped by a
boyfriend because he wanted sex. She was amazed that he could be so short
sighted and driven by his hormones. She decided that "boyfriends" were a
mistake at her age, it implied way too much involvement than she is ready
for.

I know a couple that married at the ages of 18 and 19. They both were
mature and knew what they wanted from life. They had a strong family
support and it was fun to watch them spend all of that youthful energy
together. It seemed much more natural to me and they'll still be young when
their nest is empty with more time to enjoy having adult children.

Kris

[email protected]

In a message dated 26/05/2003 20:49:48 Pacific Daylight Time,
karenmcl@... writes:


> I guess my point is, choosing young doesn't always mean choosing wrong!
>
>

Too true, Karen. my dh and I have been together since I was 18 and he 21. I
can't imagine being with anyone else for the rest of my life. We didn't get
married for a long time, and only had kid 7 yrs ago, and almost 2yrs ago. Both
were surprises.
We just keep getting more and more in love I think.
Nancy, in BC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/26/2003 11:49:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
karenmcl@... writes:


> But if both kids' parents were supportive and helpful and INSTRUCTIVE about
> how to have a relationship work (instead of just saying "don't have one")
> some
> of our first loves could have worked out better!
>
> How many people my age are going to have 50th wedding anniversaries? >>
>
> Hey! My dh and I started dating when we were 16. And the day I met him
> (which was about a week before we "officially" started dating) I knew there
> was "something" about the guy.

My husband and I met when I was 18, he was 19, at Disneyland of all
places...he was a cute Marine on weekend leave and I walked by at a parade and said Hi
to him. Hours later, when we were in the "Robotron" President Lincoln
presentation, I said to myself that this was the guy I'm going to marry. Months
later, he told me at the same time he had thought the same thing about me.

Tomorrow (May 28) is our 20 year anniversary! We married only 5 months after
we met. We got some support from my family (especially after it turned out I
was pregnant!!) We had planned to marry before we knew I was pregnant
anyhow, so we just moved the date up some.

Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

> I know a couple that married at the ages of 18 and 19. They both
were
> mature and knew what they wanted from life. They had a strong
family
> support and it was fun to watch them spend all of that youthful
energy
> together. It seemed much more natural to me and they'll still be
young when
> their nest is empty with more time to enjoy having adult children.
>
> Kris

I have an acquaintance who married when she and her hubby were 18,
and they're doing fantastic. Their oldest son married at 18, and he's
doing great, too. And another friend who has stuck it out with her
hubby for years, married quite young. He, 18, and she 19. But I
wouldn't want her marriage. Her husband must have some redeeming
qualities, though I've never seen them in public! either that, or
she's a saint for patience and forebearance. The latter, is my guess.

so, if my girl decides to follow through on her lifelong dream of
marrying when she is 19 (which gives my mom and sister hives), I'm
all behind her. Wish my female relatives wouldn't slap down those
dreams, though.

HeidiC

Robin Clevenger

> From: CelticFrau@...
> Humans are made to have a very strong sexual drive in their teen years,
> physically they are more able to have children during that time (how many
people do
> you know who chose to wait till their 30's who are now having problems
> getting pregnant?) And we as a society tell them "No, no sex...no
children, no
> marriage for another 10 years or so...get your degree, get a good paying
corporate
> job, then have a baby and pay someone else to take care of it."

I'm not entirely sure that's the case--at least that wasn't the rationale I
was given from my own family. My mom didn't have me until 25, and my dad was
32. Her mom was 30 when she started having kids, so I come from a line of
relatively old mothers (especially for back then). My mom told me she
thought it was a great idea to get a little of my own life under my belt
before having kids, and a good idea to wait until age 25 or so. I think it
was good advice (for me at least). I'm always grateful that I got to have a
whole bunch of different experiences, traveling, dating a wide variety of
people, etc. before I met my DH. When I met him, I knew how good he was, and
I knew he was the one "keeper" I'd met. So it took us about 2 weeks to
figure out we wanted to get married and have kids (though we did some
traveling and stuff together first). I'm glad I had these experiences
because I don't feel like I'm waiting for my kids to grow up so that my
"life" can start. There's nothing I'm missing out on, I know the value of
what I have (though I'm not saying all younger mothers are itching to get
away from motherhood, this is just my experience).
DH's family on the other hand has a new generation about every 16 or 17
years, and I can see the toll that it takes on the children who are being
raised by kids who are too immature to be able to devote themselves to being
parents. I'll never forget his niece leaving her 3 week old baby overnight
so she could go and party in a town where the drinking age was low enough
that she could get in to bars. These kids just aren't done growing up, and
they're not able to care for the babies that they have. In so many cases
these days, the grandparents end up raising the kids, it's a huge
phenomenon.
I think there's a big difference between a 17 year old in a tribal village
having a baby and having the support of her family and village; and kids in
our society who are just entering into a stage of rebelling against school,
life, all the controls in their lives, and using their own reproductive
capability as part of that rebellion.

Blue Skies!
-Robin-

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/27/03 5:41:12 AM, CelticFrau@... writes:

<< Tomorrow (May 28) is our 20 year anniversary! >>

Happy anniversary!

Nice story, and thanks for telling it.

We have a harder time counting our beginning dates, Keith and I, but we've
had a totally legitimate 19th (real wedding) anniversary and there are six years
before that we were together which are harder to sort and pinpoint. We know
two other couple just slightly older than we are who have been together for
over 25 years. One couple never married, one married bigtime, formal Polish
Catholic wedding in Chicago. In each couple, sadly, one of the partners has a
serious-to-terminal condition, so they won't make 50.

In the early 70's society made it easy to leave relationships and marriages.
Support was for "screw it, it's not important; he looked at you funny?
Leave!" I think 80's marriages had a better chance at success, just generally.
The climate wasn't so wild and "Let's mess with tradition and Society just
because it's Friday night."

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/27/03 8:49:55 AM, diamondair@... writes:

<< I think there's a big difference between a 17 year old in a tribal village

having a baby and having the support of her family and village; and kids in

our society who are just entering into a stage of rebelling against school,

life, all the controls in their lives, and using their own reproductive

capability as part of that rebellion.

>>

But kids have been unschooled aren't going to fall into either of those
categories. (More likely the first than the latter.)

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/26/2003 5:19:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> How many people my age are going to have 50th wedding anniversaries?
>

I'm going to be 42 in the fall and in March I celebrated my 24th anniversary,
I certainly expect to make it to my 50th if I'm still living.

BUT, you are so right, most of the people I know, parents of kids in the
neighborhood, I'm the ABNORMAL one. Most have had one two, three or more
marriages already at my age.

glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Watson

Happy Anniversary !!

~Debra (a newbie)

-------Original Message-------

From: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 12:06:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Young Women Re: rite of passage and
adulthood

In a message dated 5/26/2003 11:49:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
karenmcl@... writes:


> But if both kids' parents were supportive and helpful and INSTRUCTIVE
about
> how to have a relationship work (instead of just saying "don't have one")
> some
> of our first loves could have worked out better!
>
> How many people my age are going to have 50th wedding anniversaries? >>
>
> Hey! My dh and I started dating when we were 16. And the day I met him
> (which was about a week before we "officially" started dating) I knew
there
> was "something" about the guy.

My husband and I met when I was 18, he was 19, at Disneyland of all
places...he was a cute Marine on weekend leave and I walked by at a parade
and said Hi
to him. Hours later, when we were in the "Robotron" President Lincoln
presentation, I said to myself that this was the guy I'm going to marry.
Months
later, he told me at the same time he had thought the same thing about me.

Tomorrow (May 28) is our 20 year anniversary! We married only 5 months
after
we met. We got some support from my family (especially after it turned out
I
was pregnant!!) We had planned to marry before we knew I was pregnant
anyhow, so we just moved the date up some.

Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the
moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/27/2003 11:15:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> >>In the early 70's society made it easy to leave relationships and
> marriages.
> Support was for "screw it, it's not important; he looked at you funny?
> Leave!" <<

I remember often hearing in movies, TV, and real life how one partner had to
go "find themselves..." The ultimate act of selfishness, if you ask me.

>>I think 80's marriages had a better chance at success, just generally.
The climate wasn't so wild and "Let's mess with tradition and Society just
because it's Friday night."<<

Seemed like many of us marrying in the 80s had been products of 60's and 70's
thinking parents, broken homes, self-centeredness, and the pendulum began to
swing back cause we were tired of it. My parents split right after we were
married, but they had almost split a couple of times before while I was growing
up. My mom, not my dad, had a midlife crisis.

Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Burton Bunch

I am older (38) than most of my friends, and the only one out of them who is with hubby #1....
Jinger
----- Original Message -----
From: rubyprincesstsg@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Young Women Re: rite of passage and adulthood


In a message dated 5/26/2003 5:19:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> How many people my age are going to have 50th wedding anniversaries?
>

I'm going to be 42 in the fall and in March I celebrated my 24th anniversary,
I certainly expect to make it to my 50th if I'm still living.

BUT, you are so right, most of the people I know, parents of kids in the
neighborhood, I'm the ABNORMAL one. Most have had one two, three or more
marriages already at my age.

glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]