jmcseals SEALS

<snip> the hubby is fixed>>

I always wonder why people call that 'fixed'. Aren't they really 'broken'??
LOL

Jennifer

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/25/03 11:33:16 AM, jmcseals@... writes:

<< <snip> the hubby is fixed>>

<<I always wonder why people call that 'fixed'. Aren't they really
'broken'?? >>

My husband always says that too, about our pets.

In the case of male pets, I like to say that they have been "surgically
discouraged."

Kinda cruel, in a way, but within the context of our culture at the beginning
of the 21st century, I hope I will be forgiven by future generations for
having made reproductive decisions for other beings I legally owned. Maybe it
will someday be seen as barbaric or politically incorrect.

I've had intact tomcats and I've had... eunoch cats. Castrati cats.
Tomcats died of kitty leukemia from exchanging bodily fluids with other
tomcats in the amateur tooth-and-claw boxing circuit in our old neighborhood.


Sandra

marji

At 14:10 5/25/03 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 5/25/03 11:33:16 AM, jmcseals@... writes:
>
><< <snip> the hubby is fixed>>
>
><<I always wonder why people call that 'fixed'. Aren't they really
>'broken'?? >>
>
>My husband always says that too, about our pets.
>
>In the case of male pets, I like to say that they have been "surgically
>discouraged."

That's because just after the vet performs the procedure, he or she says,
"There! That'll fix ya!" <eg>

marji


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 25/05/2003 11:11:19 Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> hope I will be forgiven by future generations for
> having made reproductive decisions for other beings I legally owned

That is so interesting you say that. Last summer I looked after a dog from
Peru that belonged to a god-like fellow from Argentina who was riding his bike
from the southern-most tip of South America to Alaska. When he got here, he
needed to go home for a month and be with his wife while she had her baby. He
was riding for Amnesty International. Long Story Short, this dog was 11 mos old
and starting to be rude about his dogginess, so I suggested to this fellow
that thismonth off would be ideal to have the dog neutered if he wanted to, as
he would need the rest for a week or so any way. YIKES!! The guy acted like I
wanted to cut his knackers off!!
Apparently god-like Italians from Argentina do NOT neuter dogs. I had no
idea. He phoned me from Argentina to make certain that I did not neuter his dog.
My vet told me that hardly anyone in other cultures spays or neuters their
animals as much as North Americans.
Nancy, in BC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/26/03 1:06:12 AM, LOWRIEK@... writes:

<< I looked after a dog from
Peru that belonged to a god-like fellow from Argentina who was riding his
bike
from the southern-most tip of South America to Alaska. When he got here, he
needed to go home for a month and be with his wife while she had her baby. >>

How can he REALLY be GODlike if he got someone pregnant and then putzed
around the universe while she was left to take care of herself until...

Oh wait.
Nevermind.

[email protected]

In a message dated 26/05/2003 00:18:07 Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> How can he REALLY be GODlike if he got someone pregnant and then putzed
> around the universe while she was left to take care of herself until...
>
>

God-like in appearance? I myself questioned the taking off while wife
birthing thing, but she was a pediatrician and I suspect encouraged him finishing his
trip.
Super BAbe, this guy was. She probably didn't care what he did as long as he
came back.
But I get what you are saying. I would give him the heave ho myself.
And on top of all that, his dog gave mine lice!!!!!!
Nancy, scratching in BC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

coyote's corner

LOL!!!!!
janis


----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 3:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Tricked! (was rite of passage and adulthood)



In a message dated 5/26/03 1:06:12 AM, LOWRIEK@... writes:

<< I looked after a dog from
Peru that belonged to a god-like fellow from Argentina who was riding his
bike
from the southern-most tip of South America to Alaska. When he got here, he
needed to go home for a month and be with his wife while she had her baby. >>

How can he REALLY be GODlike if he got someone pregnant and then putzed
around the universe while she was left to take care of herself until...

Oh wait.
Nevermind.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

> > hope I will be forgiven by future generations for
> > having made reproductive decisions for other beings I legally
owned

Who else is going to make reproductive decisions for them? good
heavens...as if THEY could CHOOSE...dogs and cats? animals???

I think we have a responsibility to our pets, to keep populations
down. WHen I was a single mom, I wouldn't have animals, because
getting them spayed wasn't something I could afford to do, and I
won't have an animal for a pet that isn't fixed. I made the mistake
one time, with our big Australian Shepherd, who impregnated a bitch
down the road. We went over to adopt one of the pups. Her owner
said "She had them over in the hay stack. She's over there with them,
now." we went over to choose one, and found the mommy dog SNACKING on
one of her pups. *barf*

Yeah, I'd much rather have gotten Dundee neutered BEFORE that dog
could give birth. I grabbed one pup and took him home. He ended up
being put down, because he couldn't quit snapping at my (little)
kids. Bit Robby on the face, just because Robby was walking past.
Yeah, it would have been better if I'd made the correct reproductive
decision for our dog...ugh...

I hope having pets fixed NEVER becomes illegal. Animals don't make
decisions about reproduction. They are not sentient. They can't think
through the consequences of their promiscuity. They need us to "make
reproductive decisions" for them.

HeidiC

coyote's corner

Very well put. The horrible neighbor woman (who's son broke Brianna's front (adult) tooth and her response was "Well, she has other teeth." When we moved into the neighborhood, she had three cats - none of them neutered. By the time she left - she had dozens of cats and talk was that she had dumped many kittens.

I find that reprehensible.

Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: Heidi
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 12:47 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Tricked! (was rite of passage and adulthood)


> > hope I will be forgiven by future generations for
> > having made reproductive decisions for other beings I legally
owned

Who else is going to make reproductive decisions for them? good
heavens...as if THEY could CHOOSE...dogs and cats? animals???

I think we have a responsibility to our pets, to keep populations
down. WHen I was a single mom, I wouldn't have animals, because
getting them spayed wasn't something I could afford to do, and I
won't have an animal for a pet that isn't fixed. I made the mistake
one time, with our big Australian Shepherd, who impregnated a bitch
down the road. We went over to adopt one of the pups. Her owner
said "She had them over in the hay stack. She's over there with them,
now." we went over to choose one, and found the mommy dog SNACKING on
one of her pups. *barf*

Yeah, I'd much rather have gotten Dundee neutered BEFORE that dog
could give birth. I grabbed one pup and took him home. He ended up
being put down, because he couldn't quit snapping at my (little)
kids. Bit Robby on the face, just because Robby was walking past.
Yeah, it would have been better if I'd made the correct reproductive
decision for our dog...ugh...

I hope having pets fixed NEVER becomes illegal. Animals don't make
decisions about reproduction. They are not sentient. They can't think
through the consequences of their promiscuity. They need us to "make
reproductive decisions" for them.

HeidiC





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deborah Lewis

***They are not sentient.***

What?

***Animals don't make
decisions about reproduction. They are not sentient. They can't think
through the consequences of their promiscuity. They need us to "make
reproductive decisions" for them.***

Sandra's point what that in the past we have enslaved others and made
these decisions for them, for our convenience, and our conditioning of
what is decent and moral has changed considerably since then.

There may come a time when the domestication and enslavement of animals
and their treatment is called into question and the practices we have
today are regarded with the same horror we now have at our former
morality.

Deb L

"Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original
dimensions."
~Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.~

[email protected]

jmcseals@... writes:

<< <snip> the hubby is fixed>>

I always wonder why people call that 'fixed'. Aren't they really 'broken'??
LOL

Jennifer >>

Hee hee, and he hates when I call it that, said it sounds like I took him to
the vet with our two cats...Hey, that would have been cheaper!

~Aimee

marji

At 11:54 5/26/03 -0600, someone wrote:
>***They are not sentient.***

sen-tient
(senshnt, -she-nt)adj. 1. Having sense perception; conscious: "The living
knew themselves just sentient puppets on God's stage" (T.E. Lawrence). 2.
Experiencing sensation or feeling.[Latin sentiens, sentient-, present
participle of sentire, to feel. See sent-.]--sen'tient-ly adv.

I believe, as do many others, that animals are indeed sentient beings,
definitely in reference to the second definition, above, but I cannot rule
out the first definition, either. I just finished reading an excellent
book on this subject, and I encourage anyone who is interested in this
subject to check it out. It was a wee bit dry and scientific for Liam, but
we both really loved it and it sparked a lot of good conversations. I had
picked up an audiotape of the book, and there were parts that really made
both of us think and Liam wanted to hear again and again. The book is
called "When Elephants Weep." Here is a link to a review:

http://www.bookloons.com/Database/NonFiction_Review_of_When_Elephants_Weep_by_Masson.html

>***Animals don't make decisions about reproduction. They are not sentient.
>They can't think through the consequences of their promiscuity. They need
>us to "make reproductive decisions" for them.***

Perhaps animals don't make decisions about reproduction from *our*
perspective, but they certainly do from theirs. I would not want to say
with certainty whether animals can or cannot think about anything. I also
think that "promiscuity" is a very judgmental term that we cannot lay on
animals, whose reasons for being are completely their own. If we could get
ourselves inside the heads of animals, we may be quite surprised to find
out exactly what kinds of "feelings" and "emotions" they have. We may not
be able to recognize them because they may be very different than what
humans' feelings and emotions look like. But, that does not mean that
animals are not sentient or have no consciousness.

Deb L then wrote:
>Sandra's point what that in the past we have enslaved others and made
>these decisions for them, for our convenience, and our conditioning of
>what is decent and moral has changed considerably since then.
>
>There may come a time when the domestication and enslavement of animals
>and their treatment is called into question and the practices we have
>today are regarded with the same horror we now have at our former
>morality.

I could be wrong, but I think that time has come now, perhaps not
universally, but in some quarters these things are definitely being called
into question. I have noticed that people can become very angry and
defensive when animal rights issues are brought up (i.e. at circus
demonstrations, which I frequently attend whenever I can), and, again I
could be way off, but I think there may be a correlation with our
discomfort with an idea and the idea's proximity to truth. (Ugh.. does
that make any sense at all?)

Okay, I'm done. :-)

Marji

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

I lied. I'm not done.

Having said all that I just said in my previous post about the sentience of
animals, I do believe that we humans have a tremendous responsibility to
those animals we have tamed and domesticated (but not because they're dumb,
unfeeling beasts). I do neuter companion animals because there are just
too many unwanted cats and dogs in shelters and on the street. Because
these animals have been domesticated but us humans, they depend upon humans
for food and shelter; they cannot and should not be out on the street. So,
neutering companion animals is really (in my mind) the lesser of two evils.

Having said *that*, I do not judge people who have cats and dogs they do
not neuter, as long as they are taking responsibility for the animals and
providing good homes for the offspring. What some folks described here
about people allowing animals to have litter after litter and then dumping
the pups or kittens is just so awful, it breaks my heart.

marji

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
>
> Hee hee, and he hates when I call it that, said it sounds like I took him
to
> the vet with our two cats...Hey, that would have been cheaper!

I guess that depends on whether you just wanted to take away his ability to
reproduce, or whether you also wanted him to lose the ability to "do the
deed". <g>
Tia

Robyn Coburn

I think you meant "sapient" - as in "wise", rather than "sentient" which
means "having the power of sense perception" (Oxford Dictionary). The
words seem to be used interchangeably in ordinary speech, but I read a
lot of science fiction and they are popular words and concepts there.

Robyn Coburn



-----Original Message-----
From: Deborah Lewis [mailto:ddzimlew@...]
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 10:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Tricked! (was rite of passage and
adulthood)



***They are not sentient.***

What?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/26/03 1:08:33 PM, marji@... writes:

<< Animals don't make decisions about reproduction. They are not sentient.
>They can't think through the consequences of their promiscuity. >>

That's true of a lot of people, too. I bet if we had the x-ray-truth
glasses, at least half of the children we're so happy about having and discuss here
were accidents or to some degree unplanned.

And I don't think animals can be "promiscuous" in the absence of a marital
tradition in their species. Especially when they're living outside their
instinctive choices. Maybe a gander could be promiscuous.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/26/03 12:00:37 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< There may come a time when the domestication and enslavement of animals
and their treatment is called into question and the practices we have
today are regarded with the same horror we now have at our former
morality. >>

True.

Our dog lives with us, without another dog, because we decided she would.
Her job is to guard the house and hang out with us and be cute.

We don't feed her as well as we eat. She doesn't have her own room. She
doesn't get to decide whether to go somewhere with us or not.

We're nicer to her than our neighbors on either side are to their dogs, but
nothing they're doing is atypical of dog owners.

We're responsible about getting our animals fixed. But the cats are here to
kill mice and bugs, which they do. They're overpayed for what they do, but so
it goes. They were all strays (one found, two wild barncats, captured as
kittens, and would have rather have stayed there, wild with their mom).

There was a time when we let two tomcat kittens live with us rather than
continue on their journey to the city pound, and they were already ten months old
and we were young and poor and didn't get them fixed.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/26/03 1:56:51 PM, leschke@... writes:

<< I guess that depends on whether you just wanted to take away his ability to

reproduce, or whether you also wanted him to lose the ability to "do the

deed". <g> >>

**sigh**
Now THERE is a choice they won't let us make for the men in our families.

They won't even do that to life-in-jail rapists.

Some things ARE sacred in this culture.

Sandra

Deborah Lewis

***I could be wrong, but I think that time has come now, perhaps not
universally, but in some quarters these things are definitely being
called
into question.***

I did mean universally, but yes Marji, I think you're right.

Deb L

"Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original
dimensions."
~Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.~

Mary

From: <SandraDodd@...>

<<That's true of a lot of people, too. I bet if we had the x-ray-truth
glasses, at least half of the children we're so happy about having and
discuss here
were accidents or to some degree unplanned.>>


Out of my 4 kids now, 3 were tried for. Sierra was not anticipated as soon
as 13 months after Joseph. I had a miscarriage after her and then Alyssa. So
she was very much wanted even before she was here.

Mary B

Heidi

--- In [email protected], Deborah Lewis
<ddzimlew@j...> wrote:
> ***They are not sentient.***
>
> What?

You're right. I used the word sentient wrong. The definition
is "perceiving" and animals definitely do perceive. But they don't
make educated decisions. It's up to us.


> ***Animals don't make
> decisions about reproduction. They are not sentient. They can't
think
> through the consequences of their promiscuity. They need us
to "make
> reproductive decisions" for them.***
>
> Sandra's point what that in the past we have enslaved others and
made
> these decisions for them, for our convenience, and our conditioning
of
> what is decent and moral has changed considerably since then.
> There may come a time when the domestication and enslavement of
animals
> and their treatment is called into question and the practices we
have
> today are regarded with the same horror we now have at our former
> morality.
>
> Deb L
>
> "Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its
original
> dimensions."
> ~Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.~

point taken. That is what Sandra was saying. I see a different
mindset towards animals, out herre in the country, than people have
in the city. OUr dogs and cats are pets, and come inside the house
all the time, no problem. Our neighbors think we're nuts. They take
baby calves away from their moms at market time, send to the feed
lots where they can gain weight and garner a profitable price.

We disagree with that practice. But the locals who know we want only
grass fed...they can't figure out why on earth you'd want grass fed
when grain fattened is so tender.

It's a matter of mindset. The neighbor's dog who ate her pups...in
the city, they'd be fined by the Humane Society or SOMETHING. No
humane society out in the country. Animals are tools. Different
mindset. And btw, the neighbors whose dog...you know...they aren't
like most of our neighbors. Though their pets are all outside
animals, they treat their cats and dogs decently and responsibly.

HeidiC

Heidi

I also
> think that "promiscuity" is a very judgmental term that we cannot
lay on
> animals, whose reasons for being are completely their own.

Oops, I did it again. Promiscuous means without any thought to kind;
indiscriminate. Again, animals select based on species, and within
species, based on scent or color or size or strength.

But thinking primarily of cats and dogs (our most common pets)...an
un-fixed pet will mate frequently, with whatever counterpart is in
heat or is responding to a "heat"...in that, they are indiscriminate.
In that, they are promiscuous: mating with whatever animal of their
own species sends the right signals.

Other than the dolphin, which does have sex outside of a
female's "season", animals mating is based on instinct: scent, time
of year, mating calls...I don't know how many ways they have of
getting each other's attention. I do know, they don't think "Oops,
better not do it tonight. I might get pregnant." and so, we have to
do that thinking for them. Especially concerning the animals we have
in our lives with us, and their species: dogs and cats.


If we could get
> ourselves inside the heads of animals, we may be quite surprised to
find
> out exactly what kinds of "feelings" and "emotions" they have. We
may not
> be able to recognize them because they may be very different than
what
> humans' feelings and emotions look like. But, that does not mean
that
> animals are not sentient or have no consciousness.

I agree. Animals ARE sentient: they can perceive. sorry about that
misapplication of vocabulary! LOL sometimes, I lose MY sentience, you
know? hee

as for this "getting in their heads" we have a lot to learn, I agree.
But that reminds me of a discussion w/my bil...knowitall of the
century. "Dogs see color! I know they do!" (Mind you, this is a man
who "knows" that flies' eggs are the little brown specks they leave
on ceilings...and he's the genius of the family) Anyway, his "proof"
was that he had a dog; he could roll a blue ball and a red ball
across the room and tell the dog "Get the red ball" and it would get
the red one every time.

I said "the red ball most likely SMELLED differently than the blue
ball, and it knew what SMELL you meant, when you said red."

duh. my b-i-l, that is. duh-uuuuuhhhh

HeidiC

Heidi

there ya go...I think that is what happened. Sapient. But I also was
aiming for a word that means "self-aware" or "capable of reasoning."
Sapience would include those qualities, I believe.

HeidiC

--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@a...> wrote:
> I think you meant "sapient" - as in "wise", rather than "sentient"
which
> means "having the power of sense perception" (Oxford Dictionary).
The
> words seem to be used interchangeably in ordinary speech, but I
read a
> lot of science fiction and they are popular words and concepts
there.
>
> Robyn Coburn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Deborah Lewis [mailto:ddzimlew@j...]
> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 10:55 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Tricked! (was rite of passage
and
> adulthood)
>
>
>
> ***They are not sentient.***
>
> What?
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/26/03 5:21:04 PM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

<< Other than the dolphin, which does have sex outside of a

female's "season", >>

And people.
And at least one kind of monkey.

<<I do know, they don't think "Oops,

better not do it tonight. I might get pregnant." and so, we have to

do that thinking for them. >>

That still doesn't make it a "have to."
We're not doing their thinking for them, we're owning them and doing things
TO them.

I know all the arguments for controlling the unwanted animal population, and
about the danger and sorrow of strays. I didn't say "What do you all think
about the fact that I got my dog spayed, huh? Huh?" I said something about
future generations.

We judge some of what our great grandparents did as small-minded and
barbaric.

Some of what we do now (and we can't rightly predict what) will be seen in
that same light.

Sandra

Tracy

True.
I think the only thing we can do is try make an imformed decision.
Not a split second edcision based on what someone else says.
I can see both sides and can see where both sides have validity. With
that I just do the best and follow what the combination of both my
heart and brain {and bank account}say. I try to look on both sides of
the fence because some of my decisions in retrospect were better then
others IMO, and I have adjusted my next decisions accordingly.
I think that's what most of us who do care do, no matter what our
understanding of it all turns out to be.

Tracy
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:

> I know all the arguments for controlling the unwanted animal
population, and
> about the danger and sorrow of strays. I didn't say "What do you
all think
> about the fact that I got my dog spayed, huh? Huh?" I said
something about
> future generations.
>
> We judge some of what our great grandparents did as small-minded
and
> barbaric.
>
> Some of what we do now (and we can't rightly predict what) will be
seen in
> that same light.
>
> Sandra

Mary

From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>

<<I said "the red ball most likely SMELLED differently than the blue
ball, and it knew what SMELL you meant, when you said red." >>


It's actually pretty agreed upon by experts that dogs can see some color.
More along the blue and yellow lines and nothing in the green and red areas.
The rest is shades of grays. So the dog probably could tell the difference
from just looking at the blue and red balls. Now give him a red and a green
one, I'd be curious to see how he did!

Mary B