[email protected]

In a message dated 5/15/03 8:41:56 PM, ksdvm@... writes:

<< I may only be speaking for myself, but I think this list would be more
enjoyable and educational if everyone would act like adults and refrain
from expressing their opinions in a hostile, judgmental nature. >>

Agreed. I know there's a few things *I'd* like to say, but am refraining!!
Some get away with it more than others. Lara...........

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/15/03 10:20:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Laramike12@... writes:

> Agreed. I know there's a few things *I'd* like to say, but am refraining!!
> Some get away with it more than others. Lara...........
>

Yeah, and if you say too much, you'll get put on moderation. I know, thats
why I now refrain from pointing out the obvious.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deborah Lewis

***glena who does not resort to name calling to make her point***

I don't recall you ever making a point about unschooling.

But over the last weeks you have implied you care more about your
children than others care about theirs, you care more about being a good
mother than others do, and now you care more about social injustice and
change than others.

You post and then deny you wrote what you did and blame others for
misunderstanding you.

Name calling would be less insulting.

Deb L

Deborah Lewis

***The great unschooling guru Sandra Dodd calls someone a friggin idiot
and no
one says a word about it.***

Well, I'll say this.
I was frankly shocked.
What shocked me most was that it wasn't my name at the bottom of that
post.

And now it'd be nice if everyone could be finished fainting and gasping
in righteous indignation.

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 15/05/2003 21:23:25 Pacific Daylight Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:


> Well, I'll say this.
> I was frankly shocked.
> What shocked me most was that it wasn't my name at the bottom of that
> post.
>
> And now it'd be nice if everyone could be finished fainting and gasping
> in righteous indignation.
>

Hey, Deb L, I applaud your candor and am enjoying your post immensely. I have
been lurking with my head down to avoid blows for a while now. Thank you for
saying what I was thinking.
Nancy in BC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/16/2003 2:43:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LOWRIEK@... writes:


> > Well, I'll say this.
> > I was frankly shocked.
> > What shocked me most was that it wasn't my name at the bottom of that
> > post.
> >
> > And now it'd be nice if everyone could be finished fainting and gasping
> > in righteous indignation.
> >
>
> Hey, Deb L, I applaud your candor and am enjoying your post immensely. I
> have
> been lurking with my head down to avoid blows for a while now. Thank you
> for
> saying what I was thinking.
> Nancy in BC
>

Me too...only I kept thinking, "Hmph....silly wimmin." Haven't read any of
it until today...wish I hadn't...I just wasted 45 minutes.
Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/16/2003 12:14:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:

> But over the last weeks you have implied you care more about your
> children than others care about theirs, you care more about being a good
> mother than others do, and now you care more about social injustice and
> change than others.
>

I've never implied that I care more for my children, just stated how I feel,
if you perceive it that I care more than you, then what? Do I change how I
mother or parent or others to suit you? Nope, I am what I am.

I care deeply about my children and about being the best mother that I can
be, I suspect everyone here does as well, or they wouldn't be here.

You are free at anytime to post about your feeling on motherhood, parenting
your children, social injustice or even farts it seems.

I never once said anything about my way being better or more than anyone
else's at all.

I just have posted how I personally feel, as have others.

I also don't blame anyone if they didn't understand a post, I try to clarify
it. Of course you aren't in my head when I wrote nor in the circumstance I
was describing so when you respond and it's different or words were pulled
out, then I try to clarify it.

Heck who cares, whatever anyone thinks they are going to think. I've seen
MANY others come back and try to clarify or explain or validate statements
they made early and it passes but others get posted to death. Yes, it begs a
response when one posts to you directly about your post, so I do.

I'm sorry if in someway you've felt I've said you were less than as a parent,
mother, or whatever but that is just not the case.

glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Amy Wimberger

I've also been watching and wating. I deleted massive amounts of post. Just wanted to let others know they are not alone! <g>

So, how's unschooling going?

My 3 yo just let us know she knows left from right. I was wondering. Thinking maybe I should point it out. Ah, kid #3, left to fend for herself more than her sisters!

Amy in CO
----- Original Message -----

Me too...only I kept thinking, "Hmph....silly wimmin." Haven't read any of
it until today...wish I hadn't...I just wasted 45 minutes.
Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/16/2003 11:20:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,
amyww@... writes:


> I've also been watching and wating. I deleted massive amounts of post.
> Just wanted to let others know they are not alone! <g>
>
> So, how's unschooling going?
>
> My 3 yo just let us know she knows left from right. I was wondering.
> Thinking maybe I should point it out. Ah, kid #3, left to fend for herself
> more than her sisters!
>
> Amy in CO
>

I wanted to also apologize for saying I "wasted" 45 minutes reading some of
the many arguments going on on this list. I hadn't yet read that Sandra's
friend died, and I realize that although I have opinions about the subjects,
and I don't have time to get wrapped up in an argument, these are real people
with real emotions, and obviously their need to be understood on something
they feel passionate about is important to them. Sorry guys....

Our unschooling is going pretty good....I have begun taking the kids in
school to the library once a week and encouraging them to get books on
ANYTHING that interests them...helping then find where they are located in
the library...I am amazed too, at the number of good movies and books on tape
our library has. We have always gotten "fun" movies but the have massive
amounts of educational stuff too.

This year instead of buying any curriculum, I'm going to buy games, and
better toys...also some wood and supplies for tree-houses. :o) Maybe some
tools too!! A new monitor for an older computer...another bean bag chair or
two!! Can't wait to get those in school home...hoping the judge (for foster
boys) will allow it...

Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/16/03 11:07:00 AM, CelticFrau@... writes:

<< I wanted to also apologize for saying I "wasted" 45 minutes reading some
of
the many arguments going on on this list. I hadn't yet read that Sandra's
friend died, and I realize that although I have opinions about the subjects,
and I don't have time to get wrapped up in an argument, these are real people
with real emotions, and obviously their need to be understood on something
they feel passionate about is important to them. Sorry guys....
>>

It didn't hurt my feelings a bit. Waste is waste, seriously, and one of my
points was there's more sorrow in the world than we can fathom and bringing
it all home doesn't help, so if you never heard of Jon Tsosie, more power to
you! Sorry I told it and made you feel bad for even a minute.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/17/03 7:34:16 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< I'm not going to defend calling someone a "friggin' idiot". But it's
helpful
to see the dynamics that lead up to it. >>

I didn't CALL someone a friggin' idiot.
I said that if someone couldn't see the benefit to children and to peace in
families because of the efforts of people who help other people unschool,
then she was a friggin' idiot.

IS there anyone here who can't see that???

If everyone here understands that by helping families unschool and by helping
parents be more aware and kind and patient with their children, that by
seeing their children as people instead of drape apes (or pick your own
hateful name for children) that they are MUCH less likely to be child
abusers, and so the work here we do DOES help prevent child abuse, THEN
nobody here is a friggin' idiot.

Are if/then statements too high-level for these discussions?
I don't think so.

Sandra

Mary

From: "Fetteroll" <fetteroll@...>

<<We can help one child at a time, one person at a time. We can be loving
parents and give our children a wonderful upbringing and STILL have time to
help those who need help along the way.
If only one child is spared the suffering the is oft times described in the
news media isn't it worth that one child's life to CARE?
We cannot sit in our peaceful little worlds and ignore the pain and
suffering
happening right outside our doorsteps. Nor do we have to turn our backs on
our children and families to make a difference.>>

<<<how incredibly insulting is that?>>>


I didn't see it insulting at all. Not directed at any one person or even
this group. I read it as in all of us, the world can't just sit by and not
help. I didn't see where she meant that any one of us in particular "were"
sitting by not caring. I think a lot of it has to do with who it came from
too. I do believe some people here just can't deal with her postings bcause
of what happened in tha past. And as much as someone might say they have no
idea where the post came from because they don't look, when a thread goes on
as long as that one did, one does know who the poster is.


<<It's akin to some "friggin' idiot" dismissing you with being "just a
mother". It's akin to a husband saying to a stay at home mom "Yeah, but you
don't do anything all day." She shouldn't call him a "friggin' idiot". It
won't help the situation. It will probably make it worse. But I'd certainly
understand a wife who did.>>


And I guess that's just the difference in some people. I have never called
anyone a friggin idiot or even gotten so pissed about a posting on a
discussion board. If it's that disrupting to someone, they should delete or
walk away and do something else helpful and come back another time to deal
with it. And just for the record I am NOT talking about anyone in
particular. I'm sure plenty of people here were also pissed as well as
plenty of people seeing where it shouldn't have been so volatile.

Mary B

Fetteroll

on 5/17/03 10:56 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> I didn't CALL someone a friggin' idiot.
> I said that if someone couldn't see the benefit to children and to peace in
> families because of the efforts of people who help other people unschool,
> then she was a friggin' idiot.
>
> IS there anyone here who can't see that???

I saw the "if". But those ifs have cause problems in the past so I suspect
most don't. Or they read them as most people say them: as a offhand way of
insulting someone, eg, "If you believe this then you're an idiot."

But there was a dynamic that lead up to saying, in essence, *if* there's a
person in this world who can't see this blatantly obvious x then they're a
friggin' idiot.

That doesn't come out of no where.

Joyce

Have A Nice Day!

But there was a dynamic that lead up to saying, in essence, *if* there's a
person in this world who can't see this blatantly obvious x then they're a
friggin' idiot.

That doesn't come out of no where.




Yes, and that dynamic involved a single poster on this list. That is why the term "friggon idiot' even in an "if/then" situation, could rightly be interpreted to mean that particular poster.

Joyce, there *is* a double standard on this list about who can say what here. I agree that there are a few people here who bend over backwards to help with unschooling. And I agree, there are dynamics, but that is NO excuse for even using that kind of terminology on a list that is *supposed* to be promoting peace.

It is *because* of that dynamic that the term could be applied to that single poster, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who saw it that way. ANd it is because that dynamic exists that those involved should have taken a step back instead of continuing the thread.

I think *everyone* should be taking your advice: If someone doesn't want their own words misinterpreted, then they should refrain from posting them until they think about them some more. It is the POSTER's responsibility to post in such a way that they are not misunderstood. You've told Glena that, and I think the same should go for Sandra and everyone else here.

Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Fetteroll
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] peace and dramatic cluelessness


on 5/17/03 10:56 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> I didn't CALL someone a friggin' idiot.
> I said that if someone couldn't see the benefit to children and to peace in
> families because of the efforts of people who help other people unschool,
> then she was a friggin' idiot.
>
> IS there anyone here who can't see that???

I saw the "if". But those ifs have cause problems in the past so I suspect
most don't. Or they read them as most people say them: as a offhand way of
insulting someone, eg, "If you believe this then you're an idiot."

But there was a dynamic that lead up to saying, in essence, *if* there's a
person in this world who can't see this blatantly obvious x then they're a
friggin' idiot.

That doesn't come out of no where.

Joyce


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/17/03 9:07:29 AM, mummy124@... writes:

<< I didn't see it insulting at all. Not directed at any one person or even

this group. I read it as in all of us, the world can't just sit by and not

help. >>

It followed a post about HOW much of the world's suffering could be brought
into our homes before our own children had no peace, and that as we could NOT
solve the problem of child abuse entirely, how much awareness and attention
to it do we heap on our own children before it abuses them (basically,
summarized).

It was saying that if we just unschool fat and happy in our own homes we're
doing NOTHING to solve the problem.

So I said "we can't solve the huge eternal problem and bringing it home
destroys our own family's peace," and there was an insulting non-sequitor
which seemed ignorant of the value of this list and of people spending as
much as twelve years volunteering to help others homeschool.

IF there is someone who really can't understand why this list is worth
defending, then perhaps that person should just shrug and not worry instead
of trying to get others to value it less as well.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/17/03 9:27:55 AM, litlrooh@... writes:

<< I think *everyone* should be taking your advice: If someone doesn't want
their own words misinterpreted, then they should refrain from posting them
until they think about them some more. It is the POSTER's responsibility to
post in such a way that they are not misunderstood. You've told Glena that,
and I think the same should go for Sandra and everyone else here. >>

Kristen, I run the risk of misinterpretation every time I post.
So do you.
I don't whine about it.

I don't explain myself six or eight times, and I don't deny what I said.
It's there in the archives. People can cut and paste it back.

I also try not to waste people's times.
I also don't come in here saying "whatever works" or that other things are as
valid as unschooling, or that it MIGHT be important to teach phonics if you
want your kids to go to college, or whatever from the pile of things which
have come up here and WILL come up here as new people come in and are not
committed to unschooling.

There are some posters who aren't fully into the unschooling flow, who aren't
really sure themselves, or haven't quite gotten it to work yet. And if their
suggestions are gumming up the smooth flow of information when someone comes
in here to get good ideas quickly, then that person isn't as valuable to the
process as other people are. And we ARE involved in a process here.

If you were running a La Leche League meeting and one attendee kept saying
"Well bottles aren't all THAT bad," or "I let my baby cry himself to sleep
sometimes, and he's fine!" would you just let that person get the last word?
No problem?

If someone came to your meeting and consistently helped others with their
comments you might understand if she took the bottle-feeding let-her-cry mom
aside in the yard and said "This is not the place to say those things."

Sandra

marji

At 11:47 5/17/03 -0400, Sandra wrote:
>If you were running a La Leche League meeting and one attendee kept saying
>"Well bottles aren't all THAT bad," or "I let my baby cry himself to sleep
>sometimes, and he's fine!" would you just let that person get the last
>word? No problem?
>
>If someone came to your meeting and consistently helped others with their
>comments you might understand if she took the bottle-feeding let-her-cry
>mom aside in the yard and said "This is not the place to say those things."
>
>Sandra

What an EXCELLENT analogy!

marji


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 17/05/2003 06:34:11 Pacific Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:


>
> on 5/15/03 11:17 PM, Mary at mummy124@... wrote:
>
> > So when a not so popular member gets on someone's nerves, the "good"
> members
>

I have been thinking about the wording on this one for a while, and given
Joyce's post explaining the volunteer time put in by the people who are
experienced unschoolers, I think it is very demeaning to label them "good"
members or "popular" members, as if they were a clique in school. I prefer to
think of Sandra, Joyce, Mary, Sorcha and many others on here as guides,
facilitators, mentors, and huge support. I come to this list to glean their
wisdom, suck out their brains, absorb their kindness and loving attitude
towards children. Popular or good is not how I see it.
Nancy in BC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have A Nice Day!

Sandra,

Yes, we do run the risk of misinterpretation. And most of the time its easily cleared up, and no we don't explain ourselves half a dozen times (which by itself indicates a problem and works on my nerves too).

BUT, I also think that we should all be more careful with what we say, not in an attempt to glaze things over or to "make nice". I accept the fact that this list examines ideas closely and it can be a tough experience, I've been there myself.

But there is no reason to even use "friggon idiot" or to later come back with "cash bets?". They do not further unschooling, they do not help anyone understand unschooling and this is an unschooling list promoting peaceful relationships between parents and children, who are considered more than just children. They are considered people. So, by extension, this list is about promoting peaceful relationships between PEOPLE.

These phrases serve absolutely no other purpose than to be inflammatory.

Kristen



----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] peace and dramatic cluelessness



In a message dated 5/17/03 9:27:55 AM, litlrooh@... writes:

<< I think *everyone* should be taking your advice: If someone doesn't want
their own words misinterpreted, then they should refrain from posting them
until they think about them some more. It is the POSTER's responsibility to
post in such a way that they are not misunderstood. You've told Glena that,
and I think the same should go for Sandra and everyone else here. >>

Kristen, I run the risk of misinterpretation every time I post.
So do you.
I don't whine about it.

I don't explain myself six or eight times, and I don't deny what I said.
It's there in the archives. People can cut and paste it back.

I also try not to waste people's times.
I also don't come in here saying "whatever works" or that other things are as
valid as unschooling, or that it MIGHT be important to teach phonics if you
want your kids to go to college, or whatever from the pile of things which
have come up here and WILL come up here as new people come in and are not
committed to unschooling.

There are some posters who aren't fully into the unschooling flow, who aren't
really sure themselves, or haven't quite gotten it to work yet. And if their
suggestions are gumming up the smooth flow of information when someone comes
in here to get good ideas quickly, then that person isn't as valuable to the
process as other people are. And we ARE involved in a process here.

If you were running a La Leche League meeting and one attendee kept saying
"Well bottles aren't all THAT bad," or "I let my baby cry himself to sleep
sometimes, and he's fine!" would you just let that person get the last word?
No problem?

If someone came to your meeting and consistently helped others with their
comments you might understand if she took the bottle-feeding let-her-cry mom
aside in the yard and said "This is not the place to say those things."

Sandra


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 17/05/2003 08:50:07 Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


>
> If you were running a La Leche League meeting and one attendee kept saying
> "Well bottles aren't all THAT bad," or "I let my baby cry himself to sleep
> sometimes, and he's fine!" would you just let that person get the last
> word?
> No problem?
>
> If someone came to your meeting and consistently helped others with their
> comments you might understand if she took the bottle-feeding let-her-cry
> mom
> aside in the yard and said "This is not the place to say those things."
>
>

Fabulous analogy!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nancy in BC(LLL leader)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/17/03 10:05:27 AM, litlrooh@... writes:

<< But there is no reason to even use "friggon idiot" or to later come back
with "cash bets?". >>

No, but it made me feel better for a minute, and made some others feel better
too. Sometimes it's just time for tension breakers. Sorry if they offended
you.

How many times can someone say "I can say no more" and then come back and say
more before it becomes humorous? And how many MORE times before it becomes
infuriating?

Some people infuriate easier than others, and some people have more invested
than others.
Some just don't care. That's okay too.

<< So, by extension, this list is about promoting peaceful relationships
between PEOPLE.>>

In families. Yes.

If people get together to build a bridge they will also sometimes stop to eat
lunch.
They will probably joke around while they're working. They might take a
break and play cards. Not ALL those things are bridgebuilding, nor do all
their actions have to be analagous to bridge-bulding principles. Sometimes
they will stop to take a crap, but the bridge isn't build out of crap, and
analogies between bridges and toity breaks don't all have to hold to the high
standards of the purposes of bridges.

<<These phrases serve absolutely no other purpose than to be inflammatory. >>

No, the purpose was not to be inflammatory.

Sandra

Heidi

--- In [email protected], marji <marji@g...> wrote:
> At 11:47 5/17/03 -0400, Sandra wrote:
> >If you were running a La Leche League meeting and one attendee
kept saying
> >"Well bottles aren't all THAT bad," or "I let my baby cry himself
to sleep
> >sometimes, and he's fine!" would you just let that person get the
last
> >word? No problem?
> >
> >If someone came to your meeting and consistently helped others
with their
> >comments you might understand if she took the bottle-feeding let-
her-cry
> >mom aside in the yard and said "This is not the place to say those
things."
> >
> >Sandra
>
> What an EXCELLENT analogy!
>
> marji
>
It is a terrific analogy, but there is a difference with how it is
presented. "This is not the place to be saying these things" isn't
the tone I've seen in some of the replies to the klutzy newbees.
Aggravation and annoyance come across loud and clear, when someone
(unwittingly, I'm sure) says "whatever works!" because she thinks
that's what it is about, and someone else says something like "What
on EARTH did you say THAT for? sheesh..." etc. That IS the tone that
I have often seen in these endless bickering posts. Someone says
something basically clueless and/or damaging to the idea of
unschooling, and someone blasts her. Does she get defensive? Really?
do tell. wonder why.

It isn't anything like being taken aside and told differently in a
calm, accepting tone of voice. It's like having the leader of the
group shouting it across the room in front of everyone.

HeidiC


>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary

<<At 11:47 5/17/03 -0400, Sandra wrote:
If you were running a La Leche League meeting and one attendee kept saying
"Well bottles aren't all THAT bad," or "I let my baby cry himself to sleep
sometimes, and he's fine!" would you just let that person get the last
word? No problem?>>


IF that discussion had been going on for awhile and IF everyone else seemed
to not agree with that person and IF that person was annoying others and
people were getting pissed off and IF everyone else seemed to think she was
a friggin idiot then yeah, I probably would.

Like I say, sometimes the best word is no word at all. If more people on
this list would realize that in certain circumstances, then I don't believe
that things would get as heated as they have gotten at times. At times. I
think a debate is geat and necessary, especially here on this list. Most of
the time it is, sometimes it's just not doing any good. And I think by now
some of the people who do the bickering and last word know that. I don't
think in those situations, it's hurting lurkers or those new to unschooling.

Mary B

moonstarshooter

--- In [email protected], Have A Nice Day!
<litlrooh@c...> wrote:

> But there is no reason to even use "friggon idiot" or to later come
back with "cash bets?". They do not further unschooling, they do not
help anyone understand unschooling and this is an unschooling list
promoting peaceful relationships between parents and children, who
are considered more than just children. They are considered people.
So, by extension, this list is about promoting peaceful relationships
between PEOPLE.
>
> These phrases serve absolutely no other purpose than to be
inflammatory.
>
> Kristen


You know, I just didn't see the "cash bets" phrase that way. I saw
it more as a way of questioning whether someone would really do
something they have said they would do. The particular poster in
question has on several occasions on more than one thread, said they
were dropping the subject or other finalistic comments like that when
that was the farthest thing from the truth. Then there she was, not
dropping it or doing what she said. So I think we all had every
reason to believe she was not actually going to drop it. You can
only cry "wolf" so many times before you start being questioned.

Tory

Have A Nice Day!

No, but it made me feel better for a minute, and made some others feel better
too. Sometimes it's just time for tension breakers. Sorry if they offended
you.<<<<<<<


They didn't offend me at all. But it sure didn't make me feel better, even for a moment. Instead my stomach sank right to the floor.

I really like this list. It is definitely one of a kind. I've learned A LOT. My kids have really benefitted from my being here. I want to learn more.

I know this is not a support list, but it does provide a measure of support when I know that there others like me who share the same vision of what learning should be all about.

Unfortunately, all this bickering is getting to the point that I can't learn anything or even feel that I have something in common with others here because I can't bear to even *read* the list much less weed through it all to find those gems of information that really stick with me.

So, for that reason, I'm just gently and sincerely asking that those who do not quite understand unschooling please READ more, and those who are infuriated please walk away for awhile before responding with quips that end up adding fuel to the fire.

Kristen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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In a message dated 5/17/03 10:47:08 AM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

<< "This is not the place to be saying these things" isn't

the tone I've seen in some of the replies to the klutzy newbees. >>

It is the first two or three times.

I don't think anyone has ever been asked to read more and post less who
hasn't repeatedly been a problem. (Repeated or extreme, like the people
whose first post is that they're going to use a math curriculum no matter
what we say in case they send their child back in 8th grade because he won't
stop watching TV, or whatever, but those are rarer these days.)

Sandra

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In a message dated 5/17/03 10:56:02 AM, mummy124@... writes:

<< Like I say, sometimes the best word is no word at all. >>

How many times can you say that, though, without it seeming you need the last
word on the topic?

If you're running a LLL meeting, you're representative of a larger entity and
can't really decide to let a meeting get to the point where people are pissed
off. Your goal is to help the quiet moms feel safe coming back, and do what
you can to make the information they receive be really helpful to them on the
way home, later that day, that night....

<<At times. I

think a debate is geat and necessary, especially here on this list. Most of

the time it is, sometimes it's just not doing any good. And I think by now

some of the people who do the bickering and last word know that. >>

Unfortunately, you're not always right there to tell us which is which.
And your personal judgment of which is which is not universal.
What you think is worth it for YOU to argue about might be PRECISELY the
thing others thought should have been dropped.

Sandra

Deborah Lewis

***Joyce, there *is* a double standard on this list about who can say
what here. I agree that there are a few people here who bend over
backwards to help with unschooling. And I agree, there are dynamics, but
that is NO excuse for even using that kind of terminology on a list that
is *supposed* to be promoting peace.***

This list promotes unschooling in it's best moments. Not all moments are
the best ones.

Why on earth do we have to coddle every tender personality who comes here
insulting unschoolers time and time again and taking up billions and
billions of hours of our time? What is wrong with expecting someone to
tell the truth, say what they mean and not use ten more posts trying to
deny she said what she said?
Am I taking crazy pills? Because I just don't know why we need to baby
sit people who don't make an effort to be clear and honest. I don't know
why we need to be gentle with insulting posters, but totally unforgiving
when it comes to someone who volunteers every day to help people get to
unschooling; someone who's been there for every single person on this
list, even the pain in the ass variety.

Sandra has time and time again responded with helpful and honest
information to poster I would have throttled if I could have.

I wish I'd sent that post Sandra sent, in a moment of extreme
frustration, on a day when someone she loved was gone forever.

I wish I'd sent it so you all could get over it.

Deb L

Deborah Lewis

***If people get together to build a bridge they will also sometimes stop
to eat
lunch. <snip>
Sometimes
they will stop to take a crap, but the bridge isn't build out of crap,
***


That was so good I 'bout peed myself.

Deb L, still laughing... can't stop...

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In a message dated 5/17/03 11:46:36 AM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< I wish I'd sent that post Sandra sent, in a moment of extreme
frustration, on a day when someone she loved was gone forever. >>

He'd been gone for years by then, but things here did stir it back up.

It's interesting that I'm held to a higher standard by some of the list
critics here. And it's interesting that there are perpetual list critics who
seem to think their job is just to reiterate how the list sucks when there's
a problem.

I'm used to this from the SCA. Because I have rank and was for many years a
kingdom or corporate level officer, I'm really used to people who aren't
great contributors to the organization being critical of the actions of those
who are not only active in the arts and medieval re-creations but also in the
administration. There are people who've never made a costume of their own,
who don't have armor (and don't fight because they might get hurt), who don't
like to camp, who aren't particular about whether music is period or not, who
will bring their own food to feasts because they don't like medieval food but
will write LONG letters bitching about something the board of directors did
that doesn't even affect them directly. That kind of "hobby" mystifies me,
and I see that in some of the people here (and some who are gone) and other
unschooling discussion places.

It bothers me the way super-critical movie reviews bother me.

If a person who couldn't make a movie to save his LIFE says one sucks, but
many OTHER people liked it, what is he hoping to prove?

If someone who doesn't much do the thing which is being criticized is then
critical, the value of that criticism is small and suspect.

I won't criticize anyone else's swimming or cooking.
I KNOW people will continue to criticize my writing and advice giving and
self-defense and humor, because somehow writing and communication seem to
some people to be things everyone can produce and understand equally well.

So it goes.

Sandra