Olga

Kelly,

I had an idea for the conference, I am not sure if it is completely
useless as I am new to all this! I noticed alot of posts about Dads
and trying to involve them or help them better understand
unschooling. Maybe you already have something and I missed it on
your site: a seminar, question-answer type event just for Dads. I
know I do the research and present info to dh. I KNOW I do not
present it in nearly as eloquent or to the point way that experienced
unschoolers do. Maybe Dads would enjoy and be more comfortable being
able to discuss with an expert and eachother without us moms--who
usually have all the answers ;). Anyway, it is just a thought to
throw out there for those of us who are trying to get dh to
understand better.

Olga :)

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/15/2003 10:48:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
britcontoo@... writes:
> I had an idea for the conference, I am not sure if it is completely
> useless as I am new to all this! I noticed alot of posts about Dads
> and trying to involve them or help them better understand
> unschooling. Maybe you already have something and I missed it on
> your site: a seminar, question-answer type event just for Dads. I
> know I do the research and present info to dh. I KNOW I do not
> present it in nearly as eloquent or to the point way that experienced
> unschoolers do. Maybe Dads would enjoy and be more comfortable being
> able to discuss with an expert and eachother without us moms--who
> usually have all the answers ;). Anyway, it is just a thought to
> throw out there for those of us who are trying to get dh to
> understand better.
>

Olga,

Thanks for your suggestion. (And your confirmation will be in your e-mailbox
soon!)

Last year we had a "Reluctant Dads, Reluctant Husabands" presentation.
Unfortunately (or fortunately???), it was attended by many women. Ben thought
that it was a little difficult for the dads to "open up" because they kept
being cut off by the women! <G>

He's requested some time to approach JUST the dads and let them air concerns
and questions. I'm not sure *when* this will be, but Ben wants to get the
husbands/dads alone!

It'll happen, I just haven't "scheduled" it. Let your husband know. <g>

~Kelly



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jmcseals SEALS

Wahoo!!! I'd pay extra for that!

Jennifer

***He's requested some time to approach JUST the dads and let them air
concerns
and questions. I'm not sure *when* this will be, but Ben wants to get the
husbands/dads alone!

It'll happen, I just haven't "scheduled" it. Let your husband know. <g>

~Kelly***

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/16/2003 1:28:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jmcseals@... writes:

> Wahoo!!! I'd pay extra for that!
>
> Jennifer
>

SOLD! <g>

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

I'm sorry, my sister is visiting and I don't have the time to devote to
figuring out the genesis of who said what to whom and why.

Reading backwards I am seeing words that didn't help clarify anything. But
I'm also reading supreme frustration that has brought people to this point.

Rather than trying to make your point, which seems to be causing great
misunderstanding, try to figure out what the other person is trying to say.

And Glena, I'm sorry I have to single you out. There are undoubtedly other
factors involved in this particular thread, but this is the second current
thread that has gotten testy because you cannot write what you mean. It is
*your* responsiblity to translate your thoughts into words. Regardless of
how clear you think you are, if a half dozen people say they're reading
something different than what you mean then it's *your* responsibility to
figure out how to say what you mean *not* berate them for misunderstanding
your thoughts. It is *not* the reader's responsiblity to learn how to pull
your meaning out of words that are saying something different than you mean.

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/16/2003 8:28:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:

> And Glena, I'm sorry I have to single you out. There are undoubtedly other
> factors involved in this particular thread, but this is the second current
> thread that has gotten testy because you cannot write what you mean. It is
> *your* responsiblity to translate your thoughts into words. Regardless of
> how clear you think you are, if a half dozen people say they're reading
> something different than what you mean then it's *your* responsibility to
> figure out how to say what you mean *not* berate them for misunderstanding
> your thoughts. It is *not* the reader's responsiblity to learn how to pull
> your meaning out of words that are saying something different than you
> mean.
>
>
This was NOT about the post regarding what someone did not understand, being
called a "friggin idiot" was in response to saying that the world does not
stop at our doorstep and everyone can help in overcoming injustices in the
world.

Apparently someone thought I meant THEY didn't do enough. I said "But if we
all sit happy fat and sassy in our own private unschooling worlds it's sure
to continue and to more than likely become more rampant".

It had NOTHING to do with a post being misunderstood or not. That was a
completely different thread.

As for this "clarity" issues, I've thought and thought about it, and it's NOT
that I didn't write what I wanted and what was truthful, it's that others
PERCEIVE it differently than it was written, some LOOK to find something they
can twist or turn to suit them. I've decided that's fine.
I'm no longer going to try to clarify anything to so that anyone gets a
better understanding of what was meant by the post. It doesn't really matter
does it? Well, sometimes it does but it's not worth the effort because no
matter what some people are going to say that read something different, it
meant something different to them, that's the nature of life. Things mean
different things to different people.

"Friggin idiot" means friggin idiot and it wasn't in regard to anything but
someone being angry at me, not over any misunderstanding of a post or an
"explanation" of one. But in direct response to a post about injustice in
the world.

glena



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[email protected]

In a message dated 5/15/03 10:48:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
britcontoo@... writes:

> I noticed alot of posts about Dads
> and trying to involve them or help them better understand
> unschooling.

I must step off on this one and brag about my DH for a minute. He is such a
supporter of unschooling. At a cook out for a bunch of docs and their staff,
many of the doctor's families here homeschool but are very school at home for
religious reasons, one doc asked Jackson if we homeschooled. He didn't just
say yes and let it drop. He said yes we unschool. Which brought on
questions. He explained what we do and do not do. He said there were a lot
of funny looks. LOL. But I was so proud of him.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/15/03 11:47:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

> He's requested some time to approach JUST the dads and let them air concerns
>
> and questions. I'm not sure *when* this will be, but Ben wants to get the
> husbands/dads alone!
>
>

That is such a good idea. I didn't attend the dads one last year. I thought
the title pretty much excluded me. LOL. I would think it would be easier
for the dads to open up to each other.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

> I'm no longer going to try to clarify anything to so that anyone gets a
> better understanding of what was meant by the post. It doesn't really
matter
> does it? Well, sometimes it does but it's not worth the effort because no
> matter what some people are going to say that read something different, it
> meant something different to them, that's the nature of life. Things mean
> different things to different people.

I'm saving this. I really hope you stick to it.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Olga

Pam,

That is GREAT to hear and I know it makes a big difference. My dh is
very supportive and trusts the research I have done but I would love
for him to hear it from the horses mouth..LOL! It makes a big
difference when you have support. For those moms struggling a bit,
you deserve extra credit for believing in your ideals so firmly. I
do not know if I could do it without his support!

Olga :)

--- In [email protected], genant2@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/15/03 10:48:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> britcontoo@a... writes:
>
> > I noticed alot of posts about Dads
> > and trying to involve them or help them better understand
> > unschooling.
>
> I must step off on this one and brag about my DH for a minute. He
is such a
> supporter of unschooling. At a cook out for a bunch of docs and
their staff,
> many of the doctor's families here homeschool but are very school
at home for
> religious reasons, one doc asked Jackson if we homeschooled. He
didn't just
> say yes and let it drop. He said yes we unschool. Which brought
on
> questions. He explained what we do and do not do. He said there
were a lot
> of funny looks. LOL. But I was so proud of him.
> Pam G.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Clevenger

> From: genant2@...
> I must step off on this one and brag about my DH for a minute. He is such
a
> supporter of unschooling. At a cook out for a bunch of docs and their
staff,
> many of the doctor's families here homeschool but are very school at home
for
> religious reasons, one doc asked Jackson if we homeschooled. He didn't
just
> say yes and let it drop. He said yes we unschool. Which brought on
> questions. He explained what we do and do not do. He said there were a
lot
> of funny looks. LOL. But I was so proud of him.


That's great, Pam. I think it's terrific when the guys are passionate
advocates about these kinds of things. My DH was a SAHD with our son for 2
years, and he used to talk to moms about breastfeeding and such in the
supermarket checkout lines (while carrying our son in the sling), so he's a
long-time advocate of the way we parent. Now he talks about unschooling in
the same passionate way and this is one of the things I love about him.
We're also fortunate in that our homeschool group has a ton of committed
dads. Almost every event has dads at it, whether it's park day or gymnastics
or a camping or beach trip. Often the dads just come when they can--at park
day for instance, there will be dads that show up on their lunch hour to
spend the hour with their kids, and then dads who show up at 3 or 4 when
they get off of work. Many of the families in our group do some kind of
flexible work thing, whether the dad works 4 ten hour days a week or they
run their own business or work from home, or the parents split shift or
whatever, and I think it is always beneficial to have dads be an integral
part of the group.

Blue Skies!
-Robin-

Fetteroll

on 5/16/03 9:42 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... at rubyprincesstsg@...
wrote:

> As for this "clarity" issues, I've thought and thought about it, and it's NOT
> that I didn't write what I wanted and what was truthful, it's that others
> PERCEIVE it differently than it was written

No. And I'm saying this gently. Sometimes one or two people will misread
something while many people get what was intended. That means the misreaders
need to reread. Or the writer, if the writer feels it's an important enough
point for them to get, can take the time to rewrite it another way to help
them understand.

If *many* people perceive something different than what you mean to say they
are not at fault. You *can't* control how people interpret what you've
written. You *can* control what you write, though.

To help the list help people, and so it doesn't fill up periodically with
you pointing out that the words you used don't say what they are clearly
saying to others, you really really need to figure out why people are
perceiving something different than what you mean.

It would help the list and yourself a *lot* if you could figure out why
people are perceiving "Maybe tomorrow" as a lie and a bad technique in
principle. And how the discussion you also had with your daughter doesn't
change the lie or the bad technique.

*Please* don't try to explain it to me. *Please* try to figure out why
people are perceiving what they do.

> some LOOK to find something they
> can twist or turn to suit them.

This is insulting to the volunteers who are here to help people. The
regulars have far more important things to do -- like being with our kids!
-- than to go looking for words to twist. The regulars are trying to seek
clarity so that those who've come to understand unschooling can do so. They
are not picking on words to tick you off. That's a waste of precious
volunteer time and reader time.

> I'm no longer going to try to clarify anything to so that anyone gets a
> better understanding of what was meant by the post. It doesn't really matter
> does it?

In casual conversation it doesn't.

> Well, sometimes it does but it's not worth the effort because no
> matter what some people are going to say that read something different, it
> meant something different to them, that's the nature of life. Things mean
> different things to different people.

When the purpose of the list is to help people understand, then
understanding is obviously important! Throwing out words that are
understandable only to you and then defending them against how people
perceive them is not helping anyone understand unschooling.

> But in direct response to a post about injustice in
> the world.

"Friggin' idiot" was in response to a deep insult. And you then went on to
defend unschooling as noble when the subject was about people who volunteer
time *helping people understand* unschooling, not about people who spend
time unschooling.

You aren't reading carefullly. You aren't writing carefully. You go off on
tangents without realizing you're changing the subject.

This is not a great personality flaw. Probably lots of kind wonderful people
are like that. Some wonderful people probably can't type anything more than
gibberish.

But it *is* a problem -- just as someone posting jibberish to the list would
be -- if you can't recognize it and can't recognize that not figuring out
how to fix it when you're participating on this list derails the list from
being as useful as it could be. It fills the list up with useless noise that
eats up readers' and writers' time. The list is already too busy than is
useful to most people. THere's too much to read. The list doesn't need to
add noise to that.

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/17/03 8:39:31 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< It doesn't really matter
> does it?

<<In casual conversation it doesn't. >>

Someone else posted (critically, it seemed) about people feeling the need to
get the last word.

Some people DO, in casual conversation, need to get the last word. My mom
can't hear "I have a headache" without saying "I have a headache AND my arm
hurts." Some people need to be the last one to say "see ya!" in a phone
conversation.

This list is not casual conversation. It has a purpose so important that if
the unchallenged "last word" is something which could send an unsettled
family on a wrong turn, someone (I don't care who) needs to come in and say
something which will head them back toward unschooling.

Sandra

myfunny4

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...>
wrote:
> It fills the list up with useless noise that
> eats up readers' and writers' time. The list is already too busy
than is
> useful to most people. THere's too much to read. The list doesn't
need to
> add noise to that.
>

Joyce has described my dilemma. I enjoy the discussions on
unschooling topics, but there *is* too much to read; the time it
takes for me to sift through the posts, dodging the bickering and
whining posts, is discouraging.

Unfortunately, I usually end up just reading those posts from people
that typically write something useful and worthwhile to read.

Debbie

Tia Leschke

> Joyce has described my dilemma. I enjoy the discussions on
> unschooling topics, but there *is* too much to read; the time it
> takes for me to sift through the posts, dodging the bickering and
> whining posts, is discouraging.
>
> Unfortunately, I usually end up just reading those posts from people
> that typically write something useful and worthwhile to read.

When things get too much for me here I do much the same. But I'll sort by
subject so I can see what was written on that particular subject by other
people. That helps with my FOMS syndrome. (fear of missing something)
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

[email protected]

> When things get too much for me here I do much the same. But I'll sort by
> subject so I can see what was written on that particular subject by other
> people. That helps with my FOMS syndrome. (fear of missing something)
> Tia
>

Tia -

You are my hero! You changed my life in telling me how to do this on aol. I
logged on today w/ith over 600 messages and quickly decided there wasn't room
enough in my head or heart for the angst in a number of the threads. So I
read from some folks on the topic and deleted away.

Can't remember if I thankes you for this before. Really, when it's too much
but you are afraid to miss something important (as opposed to something
simply big) - you've described it perfectly.

Elizabeth


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Christina Morrissey

Kelly,,

Be sure and have your husband (Ben?) keep an eye out for mine (Mike) in
this regard...great idea!

Christina in Seattle



><<<<<<<<<<<<Last year we had a "Reluctant Dads, Reluctant Husabands"
>presentation.
>Unfortunately (or fortunately???), it was attended by many women. Ben thought
>that it was a little difficult for the dads to "open up" because they kept
>being cut off by the women! <G>
>
>He's requested some time to approach JUST the dads and let them air concerns
>and questions. I'm not sure *when* this will be, but Ben wants to get the
>husbands/dads alone!
>
>It'll happen, I just haven't "scheduled" it. Let your husband know.
><g>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>~Kelly
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/30/2003 6:58:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cvw@...
writes:


> Kelly,,
>
> Be sure and have your husband (Ben?) keep an eye out for mine (Mike) in
> this regard...great idea!
>
> Christina in Seattle
>

You betcha!

~K


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