Oyate - Books to avoid
coyote's corner
Here are some books that are avoided
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Betsy
**Here are some books that are avoided
I read a book from my library titled Through Indian Eyes that gave one
page descriptions of many kids books with American Indian characters and
summarized what was accurate, inaccurate or derogatory about each book.
This book also gave the big thumbs down to The Indian in the Cupboard.
What was nice about this book was that it also gave thumbs up to books
that were realistic and appropriate. I think it also had a list of
questions that one could think about when reading additional books to
assess whether the portrayals were well-rounded and thoughtful or
lop-sided and ignorant.
Wish I could remember more, but I don't.
Betsy
>**
> http://www.oyate.org/books-to-avoid/index.html
I read a book from my library titled Through Indian Eyes that gave one
page descriptions of many kids books with American Indian characters and
summarized what was accurate, inaccurate or derogatory about each book.
This book also gave the big thumbs down to The Indian in the Cupboard.
What was nice about this book was that it also gave thumbs up to books
that were realistic and appropriate. I think it also had a list of
questions that one could think about when reading additional books to
assess whether the portrayals were well-rounded and thoughtful or
lop-sided and ignorant.
Wish I could remember more, but I don't.
Betsy
shantinik
--- In [email protected], Betsy <ecsamhill@e...>
wrote:
huge undertaking, but I am still getting letters about it. The
checklist was also published separately (to keep the cost down) as a
little book called "How to Tell the Difference". I think a new
edition has been published relatively recently -- I've got to go do
some web searching!
david
www.skylarksings.com
wrote:
>one
>
> **Here are some books that are avoided
>
> >
> > http://www.oyate.org/books-to-avoid/index.html
> **
>
>
> I read a book from my library titled Through Indian Eyes that gave
> page descriptions of many kids books with American Indiancharacters and
> summarized what was accurate, inaccurate or derogatory about eachbook.
> This book also gave the big thumbs down to The Indian in theCupboard.
> What was nice about this book was that it also gave thumbs up tobooks
> that were realistic and appropriate. I think it also had a list ofto
> questions that one could think about when reading additional books
> assess whether the portrayals were well-rounded and thoughtful orThanks. I was the publisher of that one, about 12 years ago. It was a
> lop-sided and ignorant.
huge undertaking, but I am still getting letters about it. The
checklist was also published separately (to keep the cost down) as a
little book called "How to Tell the Difference". I think a new
edition has been published relatively recently -- I've got to go do
some web searching!
david
www.skylarksings.com
>
coyote's corner
Hi,
I would love a new copy!!
I originally owned a copy, but I donated it.
Janis
I would love a new copy!!
I originally owned a copy, but I donated it.
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: shantinik
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 11:50 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Oyate - Books to avoid
--- In [email protected], Betsy <ecsamhill@e...>
wrote:
>
>
> **Here are some books that are avoided
>
> >
> > http://www.oyate.org/books-to-avoid/index.html
> **
>
>
> I read a book from my library titled Through Indian Eyes that gave
one
> page descriptions of many kids books with American Indian
characters and
> summarized what was accurate, inaccurate or derogatory about each
book.
> This book also gave the big thumbs down to The Indian in the
Cupboard.
> What was nice about this book was that it also gave thumbs up to
books
> that were realistic and appropriate. I think it also had a list of
> questions that one could think about when reading additional books
to
> assess whether the portrayals were well-rounded and thoughtful or
> lop-sided and ignorant.
Thanks. I was the publisher of that one, about 12 years ago. It was a
huge undertaking, but I am still getting letters about it. The
checklist was also published separately (to keep the cost down) as a
little book called "How to Tell the Difference". I think a new
edition has been published relatively recently -- I've got to go do
some web searching!
david
www.skylarksings.com
>
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shantinik
--- In [email protected], "coyote's corner"
<jana@c...> wrote:
Indian Studies Center at UCLA
http://www.books.aisc.ucla.edu/
They have lots of other wonderful stuff.
david
www.skylarksings.com
<jana@c...> wrote:
> Hi,There it is -- a 4th edition was published in 1998 by the American
> I would love a new copy!!
>
> I originally owned a copy, but I donated it.
>
> Janis
Indian Studies Center at UCLA
http://www.books.aisc.ucla.edu/
They have lots of other wonderful stuff.
david
www.skylarksings.com
coyote's corner
Thanks!!!
We're going to order one - after the next powwow.
Janis
We're going to order one - after the next powwow.
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: shantinik
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 1:33 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Oyate - Books to avoid
--- In [email protected], "coyote's corner"
<jana@c...> wrote:
> Hi,
> I would love a new copy!!
>
> I originally owned a copy, but I donated it.
>
> Janis
There it is -- a 4th edition was published in 1998 by the American
Indian Studies Center at UCLA
http://www.books.aisc.ucla.edu/
They have lots of other wonderful stuff.
david
www.skylarksings.com
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nellebelle
We loved the Indian in the Cupboard series. We did not come away from them
feeling superior to the "savage" native Americans. "How could a white child
fail to believe that he is far superior to the bloodthirsty, sub-human
monsters portrayed here?"
http://www.oyate.org/books-to-avoid/indianCupboard.html
We were quite aware that it was fiction, and we found a LOT to talk about in
the stories, including the secrets the family members kept from one another.
Banning books is banning books.
Mary Ellen
feeling superior to the "savage" native Americans. "How could a white child
fail to believe that he is far superior to the bloodthirsty, sub-human
monsters portrayed here?"
http://www.oyate.org/books-to-avoid/indianCupboard.html
We were quite aware that it was fiction, and we found a LOT to talk about in
the stories, including the secrets the family members kept from one another.
Banning books is banning books.
Mary Ellen
----- Original Message -----
> Here are some books that are avoided> >
> > http://www.oyate.org/books-to-avoid/index.html
Tia Leschke
> We loved the Indian in the Cupboard series. We did not come away fromthem
> feeling superior to the "savage" native Americans. "How could a whitechild
> fail to believe that he is far superior to the bloodthirsty, sub-humanin
> monsters portrayed here?"
> http://www.oyate.org/books-to-avoid/indianCupboard.html
>
> We were quite aware that it was fiction, and we found a LOT to talk about
> the stories, including the secrets the family members kept from oneanother.
We also loved them, and I approached them the same way I did Tom Sawyer and
Huckleberry Finn. "Most people believed that black people were inferior in
those days, but we know that isn't true." Lars has never acted as if he
felt superior to aboriginals or blacks or any other race, not before the
books or after them. He understands fiction. It's like all the King Arthur
and Robin Hood books we read. He knew that most of it was legend and could
be told many different ways. He loved hearing the different versions.
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
coyote's corner
Mary,
These books aren't banned. These books are available for you.
These books have been read and reviewed by American Indians. American Indians that live in this society as American Indians, as members of a race that is discriminated against - openly. American Indians live under an occupying force - a society that cheapens everything that is held dear by these People.
You don't find anything wrong with the book. So American Indians are wrong.
Do you have a problem with the word Squaw?
Do you think we're overly sensitive about the Braves tomahawk chop?
Janis
These books aren't banned. These books are available for you.
These books have been read and reviewed by American Indians. American Indians that live in this society as American Indians, as members of a race that is discriminated against - openly. American Indians live under an occupying force - a society that cheapens everything that is held dear by these People.
You don't find anything wrong with the book. So American Indians are wrong.
Do you have a problem with the word Squaw?
Do you think we're overly sensitive about the Braves tomahawk chop?
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: nellebelle
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Oyate - Books to avoid
We loved the Indian in the Cupboard series. We did not come away from them
feeling superior to the "savage" native Americans. "How could a white child
fail to believe that he is far superior to the bloodthirsty, sub-human
monsters portrayed here?"
http://www.oyate.org/books-to-avoid/indianCupboard.html
We were quite aware that it was fiction, and we found a LOT to talk about in
the stories, including the secrets the family members kept from one another.
Banning books is banning books.
Mary Ellen
----- Original Message -----
> Here are some books that are avoided> >
> > http://www.oyate.org/books-to-avoid/index.html
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nellebelle
I am very sad about the treatment indigenous people of this country received
and continue to receive.
The subject of the email was "books to avoid". To me, that implied that
people were being advised to NOT read the books.
snip----You don't find anything wrong with the book. So American Indians are
wrong.> > > >
I didn't say there is not "anything wrong" with the book. I could point out
plenty of things to critique in the stories, but they are fiction.
I didn't say American Indians are wrong. I didn't even say that others
SHOULD read these books. I said that we enjoyed the stories and did not
think of ourselves as superior to native Americans after reading them, as
the link given suggested the books would make us feel. In my reading, the
stories depicted the Indian as a man who cared deeply for his family and
friends, was loyal and hard working, and did what he needed to do to protect
those he loved. Whether his character was historically accurate or not, I
liked him.
Mary Ellen
and continue to receive.
The subject of the email was "books to avoid". To me, that implied that
people were being advised to NOT read the books.
snip----You don't find anything wrong with the book. So American Indians are
wrong.> > > >
I didn't say there is not "anything wrong" with the book. I could point out
plenty of things to critique in the stories, but they are fiction.
I didn't say American Indians are wrong. I didn't even say that others
SHOULD read these books. I said that we enjoyed the stories and did not
think of ourselves as superior to native Americans after reading them, as
the link given suggested the books would make us feel. In my reading, the
stories depicted the Indian as a man who cared deeply for his family and
friends, was loyal and hard working, and did what he needed to do to protect
those he loved. Whether his character was historically accurate or not, I
liked him.
Mary Ellen
coyote's corner
Mary,
Advising someone not to read a book is a far cry from "banned".
Hey,
Look,
I like you too much to argue. And, I'm medicated...so I'd rather smile!
Janis
Advising someone not to read a book is a far cry from "banned".
Hey,
Look,
I like you too much to argue. And, I'm medicated...so I'd rather smile!
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: nellebelle
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Oyate - Books to avoid
I am very sad about the treatment indigenous people of this country received
and continue to receive.
The subject of the email was "books to avoid". To me, that implied that
people were being advised to NOT read the books.
snip----You don't find anything wrong with the book. So American Indians are
wrong.> > > >
I didn't say there is not "anything wrong" with the book. I could point out
plenty of things to critique in the stories, but they are fiction.
I didn't say American Indians are wrong. I didn't even say that others
SHOULD read these books. I said that we enjoyed the stories and did not
think of ourselves as superior to native Americans after reading them, as
the link given suggested the books would make us feel. In my reading, the
stories depicted the Indian as a man who cared deeply for his family and
friends, was loyal and hard working, and did what he needed to do to protect
those he loved. Whether his character was historically accurate or not, I
liked him.
Mary Ellen
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sorcha_aisling
I have to take Janis' side here. This is not about censorship and
it's not about banning books. It's about racism. This country can't
afford to raise another generation of racists. We're all living here
together and we can learn to respect one another or we can all end up
killing each other. I live just two hours from Cleveland and see
people walking around with their idiotic Cleveland Indians logo, a
logo which, if it depicted a black person would have been changed
decades ago. You can't tell me that images like that are instilling
respect in anybody. I'm sure as heck not going to read my kids
racist books on top of it. This is not about fantasy, like Harry
Potter. This is about actual human beings who are being harmed by
the attitude that these racist things are somehow harmless. If it's
racism against black or Latinos or Asians, it's an outrage. If it's
sexism against women or prejudice against gays, people are in an
uproar. But if it's racism against American Indians, then "it's just
fiction" and people are being "too picky". No way. Racism is racism
and we don't tolerate racism in my house (which I had to inform my
father in law when he got back from Texas and started telling what he
thought were amusing stories about "those Mexicans" -- uh-uh, not in
my home).
Sorcha
it's not about banning books. It's about racism. This country can't
afford to raise another generation of racists. We're all living here
together and we can learn to respect one another or we can all end up
killing each other. I live just two hours from Cleveland and see
people walking around with their idiotic Cleveland Indians logo, a
logo which, if it depicted a black person would have been changed
decades ago. You can't tell me that images like that are instilling
respect in anybody. I'm sure as heck not going to read my kids
racist books on top of it. This is not about fantasy, like Harry
Potter. This is about actual human beings who are being harmed by
the attitude that these racist things are somehow harmless. If it's
racism against black or Latinos or Asians, it's an outrage. If it's
sexism against women or prejudice against gays, people are in an
uproar. But if it's racism against American Indians, then "it's just
fiction" and people are being "too picky". No way. Racism is racism
and we don't tolerate racism in my house (which I had to inform my
father in law when he got back from Texas and started telling what he
thought were amusing stories about "those Mexicans" -- uh-uh, not in
my home).
Sorcha
Kelly Lenhart
It's a far cry from "Indian in the Cupboard" or "Huck Finn" to the Cleveland
Indians mascot. Much like the difference between a good steak and Micky
D's.
Good literature, even when portraying something incorrect (like a
stereotype) is a launching off place for so much. I'm Jewish but I don't
think that anyone who reads Shakespeare's character Shylock is perpetuating
racism. The context is crucial.
So is how we respond to it. I'm pagan. I consider myself a witch based on
my personal practice. Now, you can't tell me there aren't some just
"charming" (sarcasm and pun intented) stereotypes out there. But I am a
huge fan of many of the latest pop culture incarnations of my craft. Love
Charmed, love Buffy's Willow, love Practical Magic.
I use them to show my son the differences between fantasy and reality. I
use them to remind myself of how far we've come. I don't assume that when
someone talks about that stereotype they are talking about me.
Wrong ideas about a group can be a great way to educate people about the
TRUTH about that group. We've all seen that about homeschooling and
unschooling. Someone asks about the dreaded "s" word and away we go--a
chance to "spread the truth." -grin-
Kelly
Indians mascot. Much like the difference between a good steak and Micky
D's.
Good literature, even when portraying something incorrect (like a
stereotype) is a launching off place for so much. I'm Jewish but I don't
think that anyone who reads Shakespeare's character Shylock is perpetuating
racism. The context is crucial.
So is how we respond to it. I'm pagan. I consider myself a witch based on
my personal practice. Now, you can't tell me there aren't some just
"charming" (sarcasm and pun intented) stereotypes out there. But I am a
huge fan of many of the latest pop culture incarnations of my craft. Love
Charmed, love Buffy's Willow, love Practical Magic.
I use them to show my son the differences between fantasy and reality. I
use them to remind myself of how far we've come. I don't assume that when
someone talks about that stereotype they are talking about me.
Wrong ideas about a group can be a great way to educate people about the
TRUTH about that group. We've all seen that about homeschooling and
unschooling. Someone asks about the dreaded "s" word and away we go--a
chance to "spread the truth." -grin-
Kelly
coyote's corner
Wow- I wish I could have said what Sorcha did - and so well! Thanks. It's very hard to point racism out to some people.
Some just don't want to see it.
I can't argue today.
Thanks,
megwiich (Thanks!)
Janis
Coyote Woman
Some just don't want to see it.
I can't argue today.
Thanks,
megwiich (Thanks!)
Janis
Coyote Woman
----- Original Message -----
From: coyote's corner
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Oyate - Books to avoid
Mary,
Advising someone not to read a book is a far cry from "banned".
Hey,
Look,
I like you too much to argue. And, I'm medicated...so I'd rather smile!
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: nellebelle
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Oyate - Books to avoid
I am very sad about the treatment indigenous people of this country received
and continue to receive.
The subject of the email was "books to avoid". To me, that implied that
people were being advised to NOT read the books.
snip----You don't find anything wrong with the book. So American Indians are
wrong.> > > >
I didn't say there is not "anything wrong" with the book. I could point out
plenty of things to critique in the stories, but they are fiction.
I didn't say American Indians are wrong. I didn't even say that others
SHOULD read these books. I said that we enjoyed the stories and did not
think of ourselves as superior to native Americans after reading them, as
the link given suggested the books would make us feel. In my reading, the
stories depicted the Indian as a man who cared deeply for his family and
friends, was loyal and hard working, and did what he needed to do to protect
those he loved. Whether his character was historically accurate or not, I
liked him.
Mary Ellen
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
I don't want to argue either. I apologize for using the word banned.
Mary Ellen
----- snip----- > Advising someone not to read a book is a far cry from
"banned".
Mary Ellen
----- snip----- > Advising someone not to read a book is a far cry from
"banned".
>
> Hey,
> Look,
> I like you too much to argue. And, I'm medicated...so I'd rather smile!
nellebelle
Reading fiction with my children has been a starting point for many
conversations on values and issues. I will give more thought to the issues
of Native Americans in fiction as a result of this conversation.
Racism, bigotry, sexism, and discrimination of all sorts is alive and well
in this country.
How responsible should authors of fiction be in terms of historical accuracy
or political correctness?
snip----This is not about fantasy, like Harry
Potter.> > > >
The Indian in the Cupboard series IS fantasy. Plastic figures come to life,
including the figure of a woman who is a deceased relative of Henri. The
characters living in the present in the story become miniature and go back
in time. The Harry Potter series has some horrible stuff in it. I was
distressed reading about the conditions that Harry lived in with his aunt
and uncle and how badly they treated him, it made me feel ill. His cousin
Dudley is fat and an all over general yucky person. Where is the outrage
for how that makes young readers think about fat people? Isn't that
discrimination too? JK could have made Dudley scummy without making him
fat.
My high school mascot in 1976 was the warrior. Some people found it
offensive and others were proud to be represented by this symbol. Now I
live in a town that has the "Bombers" because this is where the plutonium
was made for the atom bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima. Some people think
this should be changed because that bombing was so horrible. Others feel it
should be kept because it represents an important event in our history.
http://www.washington.edu/uwired/outreach/cspn/hstaa432/lesson_24/hstaa432_2
4.html
Mary Ellen
conversations on values and issues. I will give more thought to the issues
of Native Americans in fiction as a result of this conversation.
Racism, bigotry, sexism, and discrimination of all sorts is alive and well
in this country.
How responsible should authors of fiction be in terms of historical accuracy
or political correctness?
snip----This is not about fantasy, like Harry
Potter.> > > >
The Indian in the Cupboard series IS fantasy. Plastic figures come to life,
including the figure of a woman who is a deceased relative of Henri. The
characters living in the present in the story become miniature and go back
in time. The Harry Potter series has some horrible stuff in it. I was
distressed reading about the conditions that Harry lived in with his aunt
and uncle and how badly they treated him, it made me feel ill. His cousin
Dudley is fat and an all over general yucky person. Where is the outrage
for how that makes young readers think about fat people? Isn't that
discrimination too? JK could have made Dudley scummy without making him
fat.
My high school mascot in 1976 was the warrior. Some people found it
offensive and others were proud to be represented by this symbol. Now I
live in a town that has the "Bombers" because this is where the plutonium
was made for the atom bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima. Some people think
this should be changed because that bombing was so horrible. Others feel it
should be kept because it represents an important event in our history.
http://www.washington.edu/uwired/outreach/cspn/hstaa432/lesson_24/hstaa432_2
4.html
Mary Ellen
sorcha_aisling
I wish I was feeling better today and could say what I want to say
clearly and without sounding mean.
--- In [email protected], "Kelly Lenhart"
<mina@m...> wrote:
Indians who have read it have found it racist, then I don't intend to
read it to my children. If the steak dinner has mold growing on it,
then I'm not going to feed it to my family. I can see, with a
teenager, looking through something racist and pointing out what's
wrong with it. Like looking at the moldy steak dinner under a
microscope and seeing how gross it is. But to serve it to my family
and say, "Just eat around the moldy parts. It's good, otherwise." I
just don't see the point.
Germany about 300 years ago. Some of them are wonderful. Others
aren't fit for anyone to read. The point of some of them are that
Jews are bad. That's the whole story. "There was a Jew and boy was
he an idiot." I won't be reading those to my children. When they're
older we can talk about anti-Semitism in Germany and what it led to
in the 20th century.
are protesting these sorts of things? The difference with witchcraft
is that the fantasy image of the witch has been around for thousands
of years. The religion of Wicca was created in the 1950s in England
and Gardner called it witchcraft to draw on the mystery of the
fantasy image. The Wiccan myth of ancient Wiccans being killed by
the invading Christians really is a myth. There weren't ancient
Wiccans, the religion of ancient Britain was not Wicca, the people
killed in the witch hunts and persecutions weren't even pagan at
all. There were Christians. Converting to a religion that has been
named for something that has a pre-existing fantasy image is not even
close to the same thing as a race of people who have been around
since the dawn of time and have been discriminated against for
hundreds of years and the fictional image is a mockery of the pre-
existing race.
I know I'm not making as much sense as I'm trying to. Racism is
something I feel strongly about. I'm raising two sons. White sons.
I won't raise them to racist white men. Period. If there's a list
of children's books to avoid because they contain racist portrayals
of any group, I'll avoid them. When the kids are much older we can
talk about racism and what it leads to. If you want to teach your
kids about American Indians, take them to a reservation and see what
the living conditions are like. A Third World country right here in
the middle of our "civilized" and "advanced" country.
Sorcha
clearly and without sounding mean.
--- In [email protected], "Kelly Lenhart"
<mina@m...> wrote:
> It's a far cry from "Indian in the Cupboard" or "Huck Finn" to theCleveland
> Indians mascot.Look, I haven't read the Indian in the Cupboard, but if the American
Indians who have read it have found it racist, then I don't intend to
read it to my children. If the steak dinner has mold growing on it,
then I'm not going to feed it to my family. I can see, with a
teenager, looking through something racist and pointing out what's
wrong with it. Like looking at the moldy steak dinner under a
microscope and seeing how gross it is. But to serve it to my family
and say, "Just eat around the moldy parts. It's good, otherwise." I
just don't see the point.
>>> I'm Jewish <<<I have the complete collection of Grimm's Fairy Tales. They're from
Germany about 300 years ago. Some of them are wonderful. Others
aren't fit for anyone to read. The point of some of them are that
Jews are bad. That's the whole story. "There was a Jew and boy was
he an idiot." I won't be reading those to my children. When they're
older we can talk about anti-Semitism in Germany and what it led to
in the 20th century.
>>> Charmed, love Buffy's Willow, love Practical Magic.<<<Did you ever notice that it's the Christians, not the Wiccans, who
are protesting these sorts of things? The difference with witchcraft
is that the fantasy image of the witch has been around for thousands
of years. The religion of Wicca was created in the 1950s in England
and Gardner called it witchcraft to draw on the mystery of the
fantasy image. The Wiccan myth of ancient Wiccans being killed by
the invading Christians really is a myth. There weren't ancient
Wiccans, the religion of ancient Britain was not Wicca, the people
killed in the witch hunts and persecutions weren't even pagan at
all. There were Christians. Converting to a religion that has been
named for something that has a pre-existing fantasy image is not even
close to the same thing as a race of people who have been around
since the dawn of time and have been discriminated against for
hundreds of years and the fictional image is a mockery of the pre-
existing race.
I know I'm not making as much sense as I'm trying to. Racism is
something I feel strongly about. I'm raising two sons. White sons.
I won't raise them to racist white men. Period. If there's a list
of children's books to avoid because they contain racist portrayals
of any group, I'll avoid them. When the kids are much older we can
talk about racism and what it leads to. If you want to teach your
kids about American Indians, take them to a reservation and see what
the living conditions are like. A Third World country right here in
the middle of our "civilized" and "advanced" country.
Sorcha
coyote's corner
Thank you.
Janis
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: nellebelle
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Oyate - Books to avoid
I don't want to argue either. I apologize for using the word banned.
Mary Ellen
----- snip----- > Advising someone not to read a book is a far cry from
"banned".
>
> Hey,
> Look,
> I like you too much to argue. And, I'm medicated...so I'd rather smile!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
coyote's corner
Sorcha,
I love you.
You said this so very well. May I send it on to our American Indian list?
Thanks so much for the way you speak, the way you think, most of all for the way you love your kids and raise them.
Their future is in good hands with you.
Obrigada,
Janis
I love you.
You said this so very well. May I send it on to our American Indian list?
Thanks so much for the way you speak, the way you think, most of all for the way you love your kids and raise them.
Their future is in good hands with you.
Obrigada,
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: sorcha_aisling
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 6:27 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Oyate - Books to avoid
I wish I was feeling better today and could say what I want to say
clearly and without sounding mean.
--- In [email protected], "Kelly Lenhart"
<mina@m...> wrote:
> It's a far cry from "Indian in the Cupboard" or "Huck Finn" to the
Cleveland
> Indians mascot.
Look, I haven't read the Indian in the Cupboard, but if the American
Indians who have read it have found it racist, then I don't intend to
read it to my children. If the steak dinner has mold growing on it,
then I'm not going to feed it to my family. I can see, with a
teenager, looking through something racist and pointing out what's
wrong with it. Like looking at the moldy steak dinner under a
microscope and seeing how gross it is. But to serve it to my family
and say, "Just eat around the moldy parts. It's good, otherwise." I
just don't see the point.
>>> I'm Jewish <<<
I have the complete collection of Grimm's Fairy Tales. They're from
Germany about 300 years ago. Some of them are wonderful. Others
aren't fit for anyone to read. The point of some of them are that
Jews are bad. That's the whole story. "There was a Jew and boy was
he an idiot." I won't be reading those to my children. When they're
older we can talk about anti-Semitism in Germany and what it led to
in the 20th century.
>>> Charmed, love Buffy's Willow, love Practical Magic.<<<
Did you ever notice that it's the Christians, not the Wiccans, who
are protesting these sorts of things? The difference with witchcraft
is that the fantasy image of the witch has been around for thousands
of years. The religion of Wicca was created in the 1950s in England
and Gardner called it witchcraft to draw on the mystery of the
fantasy image. The Wiccan myth of ancient Wiccans being killed by
the invading Christians really is a myth. There weren't ancient
Wiccans, the religion of ancient Britain was not Wicca, the people
killed in the witch hunts and persecutions weren't even pagan at
all. There were Christians. Converting to a religion that has been
named for something that has a pre-existing fantasy image is not even
close to the same thing as a race of people who have been around
since the dawn of time and have been discriminated against for
hundreds of years and the fictional image is a mockery of the pre-
existing race.
I know I'm not making as much sense as I'm trying to. Racism is
something I feel strongly about. I'm raising two sons. White sons.
I won't raise them to racist white men. Period. If there's a list
of children's books to avoid because they contain racist portrayals
of any group, I'll avoid them. When the kids are much older we can
talk about racism and what it leads to. If you want to teach your
kids about American Indians, take them to a reservation and see what
the living conditions are like. A Third World country right here in
the middle of our "civilized" and "advanced" country.
Sorcha
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
becqui
<< Did you ever notice that it's the Christians, not the Wiccans, who
are protesting these sorts of things? The difference with witchcraft
is that the fantasy image of the witch has been around for thousands
of years. The religion of Wicca was created in the 1950s in England
and Gardner called it witchcraft to draw on the mystery of the
fantasy image. The Wiccan myth of ancient Wiccans being killed by
the invading Christians really is a myth. There weren't ancient
Wiccans, the religion of ancient Britain was not Wicca, the people
killed in the witch hunts and persecutions weren't even pagan at
all. There were Christians. >>
Without wanting to get into a debate with anyone, Britain was totally a
pagan country until Roman's started to make them covert after the Roman's
themselves started converting to Christianity (the ruler at the time escapes
me at the moment), at which point those brits and anyone else under Roman
rule who did NOT convert where hunted down, tortured, killed and
discriminated against until they did convert.
There have been and still are many many people around who call themselves
witches and have nothing to do with Wicca or being a wiccan (our family is
some of those people). A witch is a quick and easy term many times for
people who practice earth based religions.
And the above statement I hate to say sounds like something that would come
out of a Christians mouth and not a Wiccan, witch or a practitioner of earth
based religions. And I do know many wiccan's and witches who do NOT approve
of the witch type shows on TV.
The religion of Christianity was created around/after Jesus, so about 2000
yrs ago....the religion that witches, wiccan's, druids and any other pagan
follow have been around for thousands and thousands of years....different
names maybe, but same basic principles....ask any that practice these type
of religions.
All I ask when a non earth based practitioner tries to "tell" me about my
religion is...make sure you do your homework and "know" what you are talking
about. I don't tell Christians Jesus was a myth and I expect not to be told
my religion is a myth as well.
Perhaps look into Irelands religious history...lots there about non
Christians being tortured and killed for not converting to Christianity.
Considering how brutal Christians could be during those times...it is no
wonder so many did not want to become Christian.
Becqui
(who is going of to get ready for Beltane (a Pagan holiday older then Jesus)
and the lunar eclipse tomorrow)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
are protesting these sorts of things? The difference with witchcraft
is that the fantasy image of the witch has been around for thousands
of years. The religion of Wicca was created in the 1950s in England
and Gardner called it witchcraft to draw on the mystery of the
fantasy image. The Wiccan myth of ancient Wiccans being killed by
the invading Christians really is a myth. There weren't ancient
Wiccans, the religion of ancient Britain was not Wicca, the people
killed in the witch hunts and persecutions weren't even pagan at
all. There were Christians. >>
Without wanting to get into a debate with anyone, Britain was totally a
pagan country until Roman's started to make them covert after the Roman's
themselves started converting to Christianity (the ruler at the time escapes
me at the moment), at which point those brits and anyone else under Roman
rule who did NOT convert where hunted down, tortured, killed and
discriminated against until they did convert.
There have been and still are many many people around who call themselves
witches and have nothing to do with Wicca or being a wiccan (our family is
some of those people). A witch is a quick and easy term many times for
people who practice earth based religions.
And the above statement I hate to say sounds like something that would come
out of a Christians mouth and not a Wiccan, witch or a practitioner of earth
based religions. And I do know many wiccan's and witches who do NOT approve
of the witch type shows on TV.
The religion of Christianity was created around/after Jesus, so about 2000
yrs ago....the religion that witches, wiccan's, druids and any other pagan
follow have been around for thousands and thousands of years....different
names maybe, but same basic principles....ask any that practice these type
of religions.
All I ask when a non earth based practitioner tries to "tell" me about my
religion is...make sure you do your homework and "know" what you are talking
about. I don't tell Christians Jesus was a myth and I expect not to be told
my religion is a myth as well.
Perhaps look into Irelands religious history...lots there about non
Christians being tortured and killed for not converting to Christianity.
Considering how brutal Christians could be during those times...it is no
wonder so many did not want to become Christian.
Becqui
(who is going of to get ready for Beltane (a Pagan holiday older then Jesus)
and the lunar eclipse tomorrow)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/14/03 1:47:33 PM, sorcha-aisling@... writes:
<< I'm sure as heck not going to read my kids
racist books on top of it. This is not about fantasy, like Harry
Potter. >>
Indian in the Cupboard IS fantasy.
But the details of the culture aren't as dumb as we learned 40 years ago.
The author actually researched the where and who of it. It wasn't a fantasy,
generic Indian.
<< But if it's racism against American Indians, then "it's just
fiction" and people are being "too picky". No way. Racism is racism
and we don't tolerate racism in my house>>
This doesn't make sense by itself, to me, but then I didn't read the whole
list of not-to-be-recommended (not the same as banned, not counting "banned"
by individual homeschooling families) books.
Sandra
<< I'm sure as heck not going to read my kids
racist books on top of it. This is not about fantasy, like Harry
Potter. >>
Indian in the Cupboard IS fantasy.
But the details of the culture aren't as dumb as we learned 40 years ago.
The author actually researched the where and who of it. It wasn't a fantasy,
generic Indian.
<< But if it's racism against American Indians, then "it's just
fiction" and people are being "too picky". No way. Racism is racism
and we don't tolerate racism in my house>>
This doesn't make sense by itself, to me, but then I didn't read the whole
list of not-to-be-recommended (not the same as banned, not counting "banned"
by individual homeschooling families) books.
Sandra
Tia Leschke
> Look, I haven't read the Indian in the Cupboard, but if the AmericanWell I read it to my son, and we talked about the portrayal of native
> Indians who have read it have found it racist, then I don't intend to
> read it to my children.
people, just like we talked about Twain's portrayal of blacks. I see no
signs of racism in him at 15. Just the other day we had a talk about a
movie he was watching where the (black) characters were calling each other
"nigger" all the time. I wanted to be sure he knew that while it's ok for
black people to call each other that, he'd be risking a fight or worse if he
tried it. I needn't have bothered. He was well aware that it's hugely
insulting for a white person to use the word.
Anyway, they're good books in my opinion, just like Tom Sawyer and
Huckleberry Finn are good books.
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
sorcha_aisling
> All I ask when a non earth based practitioner tries to "tell" meabout my
> religion is...make sure you do your homework and "know" what youare talking
> about.I guess this doesn't apply to me then since I'm an earth-based,
goddess worshipper who also has done years and years worth of
research into the matter.
> Perhaps look into Irelands religious history...I know a lot about Ireland's religious history. Brigid is my
matron. Make sure you're using good sources for your research, not
Llewellyn.
Sorcha
[email protected]
I just got back from vacation. I had 1000 emails in my inbox! I think AOL
only holds 1000 emails. Well, I was going to ask about the Indian in the
Cupboard being racist thread... then I thought, heck, I should just go wade
through the archives at the group site... But, if anyone wants to just give
me a breif summary of why some folks ( American Indians, I take it) are
offended by the book, and why they think it is racist. I'm not looking for
a debate or arguement. Im am sincerely and honestly curious as to what is
racist about the book or movie. I've read the book and saw the movie. We
have the movie and its one of the kids favorites. What is wrong with it?
Thanks
Teresa
( If no one cares to answer, I will go a'wadin thru those 900+ messages )
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
only holds 1000 emails. Well, I was going to ask about the Indian in the
Cupboard being racist thread... then I thought, heck, I should just go wade
through the archives at the group site... But, if anyone wants to just give
me a breif summary of why some folks ( American Indians, I take it) are
offended by the book, and why they think it is racist. I'm not looking for
a debate or arguement. Im am sincerely and honestly curious as to what is
racist about the book or movie. I've read the book and saw the movie. We
have the movie and its one of the kids favorites. What is wrong with it?
Thanks
Teresa
( If no one cares to answer, I will go a'wadin thru those 900+ messages )
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<< Look, I haven't read the Indian in the Cupboard, but if the American
Indians who have read it have found it racist, then I don't intend to
read it to my children. >>
I've read it.
I grew up in Espanola between San Juan and Santa Clara Pueblos. NOT the same
kinds of Indians at all, but there were as many Pueblo kids in town (and a
few Navajos) as there were Anglo kids. We socialized lots.
That book is goofy kid fantasy about plastic figures coming to live in a
little cabinet which is somehow magic. There's also a cowboy. There's a WWI
British Army medic. There's a knight on horseback. It's not a racist
book. It's an adventure book.
<< But to serve it to my family
and say, "Just eat around the moldy parts. It's good, otherwise." I
just don't see the point.>>
Don't compare moldy food to a book you haven't read. That's as closed minded
as racism.
<<I have the complete collection of Grimm's Fairy Tales. They're from
Germany about 300 years ago. . . .The point of some of them are that
Jews are bad. That's the whole story. "There was a Jew and boy was
he an idiot." >>
Which one is that? 'Some of them' implies there's more than one, even.
<< There weren't ancient
Wiccans, the religion of ancient Britain was not Wicca, the people
killed in the witch hunts and persecutions weren't even pagan at
all. There were Christians. >>
True. "Witches" claiming ancient persecution are totally off the wall.
<<. . .not even
close to the same thing as a race of people who have been around
since the dawn of time >>
Very few groups of people, race or otherwise, have been around since the dawn
of time. Someone commented here (I think) last week something to the effect
of being surprised to find out that the Japanese weren't the indigenous
people of Japan. DUH! Few to no people are indigenous to where they live
if you go back far enough. The Sanskrit-language-group in India came from
elsewhere. Should they be reviled for having run the other language groups
to the edges of the subcontinent, seeing as how it's beyond redoing now?
<<If there's a list
of children's books to avoid because they contain racist portrayals
of any group, I'll avoid them. >>
If you just take other people's word for it without looking yourself, you
might find you've just bought into someone ELSE's prejudice. "PREjudice" is
deciding without looking. Doing that at the other extreme isn't balance
either.
<<If you want to teach your
kids about American Indians, take them to a reservation and see what
the living conditions are like. >>
We're in New Mexico. Indians work at Walmart, and live in town or at the
Pueblo (or on the reservation, in the case of Navajo), whichever they want.
They work at Los Alamos Labs. They work all over the place. Living
conditions at the Pueblos are not bad at all. I'm not so personally familiar
with the Navajo reservation. There's a LOT of alcohol abuse. There is
government corruption. That's not other people doing to them, that's them
doing to themselves and each other.
<<A Third World country right here in
the middle of our "civilized" and "advanced" country.>>
Downtown of many major cities is pretty backward and poor and dangerous.
Street people here are way worse off than the Indians. There's a mixed
Vietnamese and illegal Mexican neighborhood here that is NOT save to be in at
night. More apartments are boarded up than are inhabited. Indians stay out
of that neighborhood. Kirby's karate school is smack in the midst of it.
Sandra
Indians who have read it have found it racist, then I don't intend to
read it to my children. >>
I've read it.
I grew up in Espanola between San Juan and Santa Clara Pueblos. NOT the same
kinds of Indians at all, but there were as many Pueblo kids in town (and a
few Navajos) as there were Anglo kids. We socialized lots.
That book is goofy kid fantasy about plastic figures coming to live in a
little cabinet which is somehow magic. There's also a cowboy. There's a WWI
British Army medic. There's a knight on horseback. It's not a racist
book. It's an adventure book.
<< But to serve it to my family
and say, "Just eat around the moldy parts. It's good, otherwise." I
just don't see the point.>>
Don't compare moldy food to a book you haven't read. That's as closed minded
as racism.
<<I have the complete collection of Grimm's Fairy Tales. They're from
Germany about 300 years ago. . . .The point of some of them are that
Jews are bad. That's the whole story. "There was a Jew and boy was
he an idiot." >>
Which one is that? 'Some of them' implies there's more than one, even.
<< There weren't ancient
Wiccans, the religion of ancient Britain was not Wicca, the people
killed in the witch hunts and persecutions weren't even pagan at
all. There were Christians. >>
True. "Witches" claiming ancient persecution are totally off the wall.
<<. . .not even
close to the same thing as a race of people who have been around
since the dawn of time >>
Very few groups of people, race or otherwise, have been around since the dawn
of time. Someone commented here (I think) last week something to the effect
of being surprised to find out that the Japanese weren't the indigenous
people of Japan. DUH! Few to no people are indigenous to where they live
if you go back far enough. The Sanskrit-language-group in India came from
elsewhere. Should they be reviled for having run the other language groups
to the edges of the subcontinent, seeing as how it's beyond redoing now?
<<If there's a list
of children's books to avoid because they contain racist portrayals
of any group, I'll avoid them. >>
If you just take other people's word for it without looking yourself, you
might find you've just bought into someone ELSE's prejudice. "PREjudice" is
deciding without looking. Doing that at the other extreme isn't balance
either.
<<If you want to teach your
kids about American Indians, take them to a reservation and see what
the living conditions are like. >>
We're in New Mexico. Indians work at Walmart, and live in town or at the
Pueblo (or on the reservation, in the case of Navajo), whichever they want.
They work at Los Alamos Labs. They work all over the place. Living
conditions at the Pueblos are not bad at all. I'm not so personally familiar
with the Navajo reservation. There's a LOT of alcohol abuse. There is
government corruption. That's not other people doing to them, that's them
doing to themselves and each other.
<<A Third World country right here in
the middle of our "civilized" and "advanced" country.>>
Downtown of many major cities is pretty backward and poor and dangerous.
Street people here are way worse off than the Indians. There's a mixed
Vietnamese and illegal Mexican neighborhood here that is NOT save to be in at
night. More apartments are boarded up than are inhabited. Indians stay out
of that neighborhood. Kirby's karate school is smack in the midst of it.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/14/03 6:03:47 PM, becqui@... writes:
<< There have been and still are many many people around who call themselves
witches and have nothing to do with Wicca or being a wiccan (our family is
some of those people). A witch is a quick and easy term many times for
people who practice earth based religions. >>
There have been since the early 70's or so. Not in the 19th century. Not in
the 18th century. And it's NOT the same religion as was practiced
pre-Christianity ANYWHERE.
<<And I do know many wiccan's and witches who do NOT approve
of the witch type shows on TV.>>
It can't make their religion look goofy, though.
Their "religion" IS goofy.
Not the principles, but the claims of antiquity.
<<the religion that witches, wiccan's, druids and any other pagan
follow have been around for thousands and thousands of years....different
names maybe, but same basic principles....ask any that practice these type
of religions.>>
Right those who "practice these types of religions" SAY they've been around
for thousands of years but it's nonsense.
<<(who is going of to get ready for Beltane (a Pagan holiday older then Jesus)
and the lunar eclipse tomorrow)>>
Just because the holiday was celebrated doesn't mean today's celebrants are
doing anything in a direct line as the others. It's not the same religion.
It's a reconstruction based on sparse evidence and wishful thinking.
Sandra
<< There have been and still are many many people around who call themselves
witches and have nothing to do with Wicca or being a wiccan (our family is
some of those people). A witch is a quick and easy term many times for
people who practice earth based religions. >>
There have been since the early 70's or so. Not in the 19th century. Not in
the 18th century. And it's NOT the same religion as was practiced
pre-Christianity ANYWHERE.
<<And I do know many wiccan's and witches who do NOT approve
of the witch type shows on TV.>>
It can't make their religion look goofy, though.
Their "religion" IS goofy.
Not the principles, but the claims of antiquity.
<<the religion that witches, wiccan's, druids and any other pagan
follow have been around for thousands and thousands of years....different
names maybe, but same basic principles....ask any that practice these type
of religions.>>
Right those who "practice these types of religions" SAY they've been around
for thousands of years but it's nonsense.
<<(who is going of to get ready for Beltane (a Pagan holiday older then Jesus)
and the lunar eclipse tomorrow)>>
Just because the holiday was celebrated doesn't mean today's celebrants are
doing anything in a direct line as the others. It's not the same religion.
It's a reconstruction based on sparse evidence and wishful thinking.
Sandra
sorcha_aisling
> Sorcha,Thanks. :) I love you too.
> I love you.
>>>May I send it on to our American Indian list?<<<If you think anyone wants to hear the ramblings of some white girl in
Ohio, feel free. <g> I knew I was risking the wrath of fellow white
pagans with that post. But it's not the same thing. It's just not.
I can leave my pentacle at home and walk down the street a member of
mainstream society. I have my own grudges against the way my
ancestors were converted to Christianity, but to pretend that the
life I live in American society is on par with the experiences of
American Indians is dishonest and cheapens the very real struggles
that very real people are living through.
Sorcha
becqui
my line <<the religion that witches, wiccan's, druids and any other pagan
follow have been around for thousands and thousands of years....different
names maybe, but same basic principles....ask any that practice these type
of religions.>>
<< Right those who "practice these types of religions" SAY they've been
around
for thousands of years but it's nonsense. >>
This is from my 14 yr old daughter who has serious issue with the above
line:
This is nonsense? Last time I read my history (today in fact), Egyptians
were pagan, it is very well documented...therefore NOT nonsense or wishful
thinking. I have studied Egypt all this past year and base much of my
religious practices on what they not only believed but did themselves. If it
is nonsense then there is some serious issues with the Bible as last I read
Moses was in Egypt and dealt with the pagan aspect of the time. I have also
studied some Celtic history and the same goes there...documented practices
of paganism practiced much in the same way I do now, as does Mentors I have
had off on on, who in turn have learned their religious way in life from
history passed on by generations in both their families.
Granted practices have changed over time, just as Christianity has changed
over time, but the "basic" concept of the Gods and Goddess is still the same
just as the basic concept of God and Jesus are the same for Christians.
Victoria
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
follow have been around for thousands and thousands of years....different
names maybe, but same basic principles....ask any that practice these type
of religions.>>
<< Right those who "practice these types of religions" SAY they've been
around
for thousands of years but it's nonsense. >>
This is from my 14 yr old daughter who has serious issue with the above
line:
This is nonsense? Last time I read my history (today in fact), Egyptians
were pagan, it is very well documented...therefore NOT nonsense or wishful
thinking. I have studied Egypt all this past year and base much of my
religious practices on what they not only believed but did themselves. If it
is nonsense then there is some serious issues with the Bible as last I read
Moses was in Egypt and dealt with the pagan aspect of the time. I have also
studied some Celtic history and the same goes there...documented practices
of paganism practiced much in the same way I do now, as does Mentors I have
had off on on, who in turn have learned their religious way in life from
history passed on by generations in both their families.
Granted practices have changed over time, just as Christianity has changed
over time, but the "basic" concept of the Gods and Goddess is still the same
just as the basic concept of God and Jesus are the same for Christians.
Victoria
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kimberly Stagmeier
Hello everyone,
I just joined your list as I am planning to unschool my 3 children. I
have a daughter 5, son 2.5 and son 11 weeks. I am a holistic
veterinarian and practice homeopathy, chiropractic, Reiki with animals.
I am currently pursuing my ND degree (naturopath) so I can treat their
guardians as well :-)
I hope to gain useful insights from this discussion group regarding the
in's and out's of unschooling, and to gain knowledge from you more
experienced Moms.
Sincerely,
Dr. Kimberly Stagmeier
Blue Ridge, Georgia
-----Original Message-----
From: sorcha_aisling [mailto:sorcha-aisling@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 8:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Oyate - Books to avoid
goddess worshipper who also has done years and years worth of
research into the matter.
matron. Make sure you're using good sources for your research, not
Llewellyn.
Sorcha
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I just joined your list as I am planning to unschool my 3 children. I
have a daughter 5, son 2.5 and son 11 weeks. I am a holistic
veterinarian and practice homeopathy, chiropractic, Reiki with animals.
I am currently pursuing my ND degree (naturopath) so I can treat their
guardians as well :-)
I hope to gain useful insights from this discussion group regarding the
in's and out's of unschooling, and to gain knowledge from you more
experienced Moms.
Sincerely,
Dr. Kimberly Stagmeier
Blue Ridge, Georgia
-----Original Message-----
From: sorcha_aisling [mailto:sorcha-aisling@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 8:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Oyate - Books to avoid
> All I ask when a non earth based practitioner tries to "tell" meabout my
> religion is...make sure you do your homework and "know" what youare talking
> about.I guess this doesn't apply to me then since I'm an earth-based,
goddess worshipper who also has done years and years worth of
research into the matter.
> Perhaps look into Irelands religious history...I know a lot about Ireland's religious history. Brigid is my
matron. Make sure you're using good sources for your research, not
Llewellyn.
Sorcha
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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081972:HM/A=1564415/R=0/*http:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60164784&par
tid=3170658>
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=251812.3170658.4537139.1261774/D=egrou
pmail/S=:HM/A=1564415/rand=398973270>
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list
owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
becqui
Sorcha ,
Tried to e-mail you off list about the wicca stuff, but it bounced. Hope
your feeling better soon.
Becqui
Tried to e-mail you off list about the wicca stuff, but it bounced. Hope
your feeling better soon.
Becqui