Cultural literacy, cultural lies and mainstream society
sorcha_aisling
This is something I've struggled with ever since I was in third grade
and my father told me that the Thanksgiving story they told me in
school wasn't true. Why does our culture lie to children? And what
do we tell our own children?
Columbus didn't discover America, he didn't use the word "Indians"
becuase he thought he was in India, and people in Europe in 1492
didn't think the world was flat. But could someone be culturally
literate (mainstream American culture, not multiculturally literate)
without at least knowing that some people do believe these things?
Abraham Lincoln didn't fight the Civil War to free the slaves and
give them American citizenship, but it's a cultural myth so big that
it clouds any discussion of the Civil War.
I do "get" where E.D. Hirsch is coming from, that it helps if people
are on the same page when they're talking. If I was going to do a
curriculum it would be his. When someone says, "It's a modern-day
Cinderella story" I don't want my children to say, "What the heck is
a Cinderella story?" I hope they don't respond to a reference that
the Emperor has no clothes by saying that we have a President, not an
Emperor. I don't think anyone born in this country needs a school to
teach them cultural literacy. But I do wonder what people tell their
children when the cultural myth is a blatant lie. What do you say on
Thanksgiving?
Sorcha
and my father told me that the Thanksgiving story they told me in
school wasn't true. Why does our culture lie to children? And what
do we tell our own children?
Columbus didn't discover America, he didn't use the word "Indians"
becuase he thought he was in India, and people in Europe in 1492
didn't think the world was flat. But could someone be culturally
literate (mainstream American culture, not multiculturally literate)
without at least knowing that some people do believe these things?
Abraham Lincoln didn't fight the Civil War to free the slaves and
give them American citizenship, but it's a cultural myth so big that
it clouds any discussion of the Civil War.
I do "get" where E.D. Hirsch is coming from, that it helps if people
are on the same page when they're talking. If I was going to do a
curriculum it would be his. When someone says, "It's a modern-day
Cinderella story" I don't want my children to say, "What the heck is
a Cinderella story?" I hope they don't respond to a reference that
the Emperor has no clothes by saying that we have a President, not an
Emperor. I don't think anyone born in this country needs a school to
teach them cultural literacy. But I do wonder what people tell their
children when the cultural myth is a blatant lie. What do you say on
Thanksgiving?
Sorcha
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/9/03 4:15:41 PM, sorcha-aisling@... writes:
<< This is something I've struggled with ever since I was in third grade
and my father told me that the Thanksgiving story they told me in
school wasn't true. Why does our culture lie to children? >>
It's called "mythology," and all cultures have it. In some it's exactly the
same as their religion. In a separation of church and state situation, the
state takes on some mythological overtones.
<<and people in Europe in 1492
didn't think the world was flat. >>
Some knew it wasn't flat.
Most didn't know diddly.
Some thought it was flat.
There weren't professional journals or anything like that. Some of the maps
from those days seem woeful now.
Just because SOME people know that school is bad for kids doesn't mean you
can say "At the beginning of the 21st century, peope didn't think school was
good for kids."
<< When someone says, "It's a modern-day
Cinderella story" I don't want my children to say, "What the heck is
a Cinderella story?" I hope they don't respond to a reference that
the Emperor has no clothes by saying that we have a President, not an
Emperor. I don't think anyone born in this country needs a school to
teach them cultural literacy. >>
When a family plans to shield their children from modern culture by keeping
them away from television, music, movies, and people who don't go to their
church, it might help for those parents to have a checklist so they can
mention things like Cinderella and The Emperor's New Clothes, since they're
not in the Bible.
<<But I do wonder what people tell their
children when the cultural myth is a blatant lie.>>
Double trouble for Christian literalists.
<< What do you say onThanksgiving?>>
You could say there's a traditional story, which isn't altogether true, but
has vague basis in some historical happenings, and talk about folklore! What
it is, though, is a feast of new-world foods, and that's true.
Folklore and mythology aren't "blatant lies." They're folklore and
mythology, which grow gradually, as crystals grow.
There ARE blatant lies in the world, but most of the traditional American
stuff falls under myth, I think.
There's a painting at the U.S. capitol building of George Washington and
Abraham Lincoln standing and shaking hands. Is that a blatant lie? It's
symbolic art. Nobody's pointing it out to tourists and saying "This is from
a photograph of the day Washington met Lincoln."
I think telling kids there's a conspiracy and the national symbols and
stories are all lies is likewise a lie.
I've been interested in traditional ballads since I was fifteen. They're one
of my favorite collectible things. In literature books they're sometimes
listed as "anonymous." They're not "anonymous." Anonymous means someone
wrote it, but forgot to sign it, or sent it out into the world without
wanting credit. There are broadside ballads which are truly anonymous.
Someone wrote a parody, or the account of a hanging or something ("to be sung
to the tune of Greensleeves"), it was published that afternoon to sell at the
public execution site as souvenirs, and it was over that same day.
But a traditional ballad will be found in different parts and places, with
variations and maybe different tunes, having changed gradually over long
periods of time. And when you find one it's not "anonymous," it's
"traditional."
So are lots of the simplified elements of history which schoolkids recite
back, which pass for "learning history." They're learning mythology, and
traditional accounts and such.
There is a growing set of lies which ARE composed by particular purposes and
they're being sold in homeschooling catalogs every day. That's the revised
history of America used by many homeschoolers, the history that shows that
America was always a Christian country, corrupted by immigrants and bad
influences; that the Indians were cannibals, killing each other all the time
in their mean igorance; that God chose and maintains this country but he's
very angry and this country needs to get back to its true roots. The paint
is still wet on those new true roots. How will kids who are presented that
as "this is history, period" know that what they have is a brand new kind of
mythology?
Then there is Christian "science." Not christian-science as in the church,
but homeschooling science materials written by Christians to match the Bible,
and if kids are limited to JUST the input their parents choose, how will they
know there is other more objective, more scientific science out there?
When kids gather up their own cultural literacy, Rumplestiltskin is a name to
know, and Teddy Roosevelt is a name to know. One's more real than the other,
but they've both had stories told about them that weren't true!
Sandra
<< This is something I've struggled with ever since I was in third grade
and my father told me that the Thanksgiving story they told me in
school wasn't true. Why does our culture lie to children? >>
It's called "mythology," and all cultures have it. In some it's exactly the
same as their religion. In a separation of church and state situation, the
state takes on some mythological overtones.
<<and people in Europe in 1492
didn't think the world was flat. >>
Some knew it wasn't flat.
Most didn't know diddly.
Some thought it was flat.
There weren't professional journals or anything like that. Some of the maps
from those days seem woeful now.
Just because SOME people know that school is bad for kids doesn't mean you
can say "At the beginning of the 21st century, peope didn't think school was
good for kids."
<< When someone says, "It's a modern-day
Cinderella story" I don't want my children to say, "What the heck is
a Cinderella story?" I hope they don't respond to a reference that
the Emperor has no clothes by saying that we have a President, not an
Emperor. I don't think anyone born in this country needs a school to
teach them cultural literacy. >>
When a family plans to shield their children from modern culture by keeping
them away from television, music, movies, and people who don't go to their
church, it might help for those parents to have a checklist so they can
mention things like Cinderella and The Emperor's New Clothes, since they're
not in the Bible.
<<But I do wonder what people tell their
children when the cultural myth is a blatant lie.>>
Double trouble for Christian literalists.
<< What do you say onThanksgiving?>>
You could say there's a traditional story, which isn't altogether true, but
has vague basis in some historical happenings, and talk about folklore! What
it is, though, is a feast of new-world foods, and that's true.
Folklore and mythology aren't "blatant lies." They're folklore and
mythology, which grow gradually, as crystals grow.
There ARE blatant lies in the world, but most of the traditional American
stuff falls under myth, I think.
There's a painting at the U.S. capitol building of George Washington and
Abraham Lincoln standing and shaking hands. Is that a blatant lie? It's
symbolic art. Nobody's pointing it out to tourists and saying "This is from
a photograph of the day Washington met Lincoln."
I think telling kids there's a conspiracy and the national symbols and
stories are all lies is likewise a lie.
I've been interested in traditional ballads since I was fifteen. They're one
of my favorite collectible things. In literature books they're sometimes
listed as "anonymous." They're not "anonymous." Anonymous means someone
wrote it, but forgot to sign it, or sent it out into the world without
wanting credit. There are broadside ballads which are truly anonymous.
Someone wrote a parody, or the account of a hanging or something ("to be sung
to the tune of Greensleeves"), it was published that afternoon to sell at the
public execution site as souvenirs, and it was over that same day.
But a traditional ballad will be found in different parts and places, with
variations and maybe different tunes, having changed gradually over long
periods of time. And when you find one it's not "anonymous," it's
"traditional."
So are lots of the simplified elements of history which schoolkids recite
back, which pass for "learning history." They're learning mythology, and
traditional accounts and such.
There is a growing set of lies which ARE composed by particular purposes and
they're being sold in homeschooling catalogs every day. That's the revised
history of America used by many homeschoolers, the history that shows that
America was always a Christian country, corrupted by immigrants and bad
influences; that the Indians were cannibals, killing each other all the time
in their mean igorance; that God chose and maintains this country but he's
very angry and this country needs to get back to its true roots. The paint
is still wet on those new true roots. How will kids who are presented that
as "this is history, period" know that what they have is a brand new kind of
mythology?
Then there is Christian "science." Not christian-science as in the church,
but homeschooling science materials written by Christians to match the Bible,
and if kids are limited to JUST the input their parents choose, how will they
know there is other more objective, more scientific science out there?
When kids gather up their own cultural literacy, Rumplestiltskin is a name to
know, and Teddy Roosevelt is a name to know. One's more real than the other,
but they've both had stories told about them that weren't true!
Sandra
jmcseals SEALS
What do you say on
Thanksgiving?>>
Pass the turkey and gravy??
No, really. When was in school, my Dad told me the true story of Columbus,
too, and always sang us his own little twist on the famous poem...
In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue
Round and round and round he went
Till his ship dropped sail, his energy spent
But what was poor Columbus to do?
Well, find an Indian,
HE'LL tell you the truth!
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanksgiving?>>
Pass the turkey and gravy??
No, really. When was in school, my Dad told me the true story of Columbus,
too, and always sang us his own little twist on the famous poem...
In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue
Round and round and round he went
Till his ship dropped sail, his energy spent
But what was poor Columbus to do?
Well, find an Indian,
HE'LL tell you the truth!
Jennifer
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mamita Mala
I guess alot of this depends on what one considers "their" culture to be. For example the Thanksgiving and Columbus issues are pretty much non-issues for me because even though my daughter is only 5 1/2 I was and continue to be honest about what went down because it directly relates to her heritage as an Indigenous/Latina person. While I think it is sad on some level, I feel we are outside the mainstream American culture. However because we live within the mainstream culture she sees for herself and is exposed herself to the images of the Natives having turkey with the pilgrims and of Columbus being welcomed by the Tainos. I really do discuss with her the different perspectives and where they come from ( we'll look at books or go to events/places etc). We don't "celebrate" Thanksgiving in my household. We protest it and I explain to my daughter why and she has the option of participating with me or not. Maegan la Mala
sorcha_aisling <sorcha-aisling@...> wrote:This is something I've struggled with ever since I was in third grade
and my father told me that the Thanksgiving story they told me in
school wasn't true. Why does our culture lie to children? And what
do we tell our own children?
Columbus didn't discover America, he didn't use the word "Indians"
becuase he thought he was in India, and people in Europe in 1492
didn't think the world was flat. But could someone be culturally
literate (mainstream American culture, not multiculturally literate)
without at least knowing that some people do believe these things?
Abraham Lincoln didn't fight the Civil War to free the slaves and
give them American citizenship, but it's a cultural myth so big that
it clouds any discussion of the Civil War.
I do "get" where E.D. Hirsch is coming from, that it helps if people
are on the same page when they're talking. If I was going to do a
curriculum it would be his. When someone says, "It's a modern-day
Cinderella story" I don't want my children to say, "What the heck is
a Cinderella story?" I hope they don't respond to a reference that
the Emperor has no clothes by saying that we have a President, not an
Emperor. I don't think anyone born in this country needs a school to
teach them cultural literacy. But I do wonder what people tell their
children when the cultural myth is a blatant lie. What do you say on
Thanksgiving?
Sorcha
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sorcha_aisling <sorcha-aisling@...> wrote:This is something I've struggled with ever since I was in third grade
and my father told me that the Thanksgiving story they told me in
school wasn't true. Why does our culture lie to children? And what
do we tell our own children?
Columbus didn't discover America, he didn't use the word "Indians"
becuase he thought he was in India, and people in Europe in 1492
didn't think the world was flat. But could someone be culturally
literate (mainstream American culture, not multiculturally literate)
without at least knowing that some people do believe these things?
Abraham Lincoln didn't fight the Civil War to free the slaves and
give them American citizenship, but it's a cultural myth so big that
it clouds any discussion of the Civil War.
I do "get" where E.D. Hirsch is coming from, that it helps if people
are on the same page when they're talking. If I was going to do a
curriculum it would be his. When someone says, "It's a modern-day
Cinderella story" I don't want my children to say, "What the heck is
a Cinderella story?" I hope they don't respond to a reference that
the Emperor has no clothes by saying that we have a President, not an
Emperor. I don't think anyone born in this country needs a school to
teach them cultural literacy. But I do wonder what people tell their
children when the cultural myth is a blatant lie. What do you say on
Thanksgiving?
Sorcha
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**and is exposed herself to the images of the Natives having turkey with
the pilgrims and of Columbus being welcomed by the Tainos. I really do
discuss with her the different perspectives and where they come from (
we'll look at books or go to events/places etc).**
For people who haven't investigated this after their public school
imprinting, there is some eye-opening stuff about Columbus, from
contemporary documentation, in Lies My Teacher Told Me, by Loewen.
Betsy
the pilgrims and of Columbus being welcomed by the Tainos. I really do
discuss with her the different perspectives and where they come from (
we'll look at books or go to events/places etc).**
For people who haven't investigated this after their public school
imprinting, there is some eye-opening stuff about Columbus, from
contemporary documentation, in Lies My Teacher Told Me, by Loewen.
Betsy
coyote's corner
Good for you!!! The straw that broke the camels back for me was the teacher telling my Brianna (Abenaki, Mandan-Hidatsu, Mohawk) that she had to be a pilgrim and that I had to make the outfit! Brianna (aka Mudpuppy) came home and said "the teacher wants......... I'm not doing it." So she didn't.
When I was younger - I was told that the Azores (we are also Azorean) - a group of islands approx. 750 miles west of Portugal - were conquered by the Portuguese around the 1200's. I was told that we - the Calouro's - could trace our family back to the invasion. I was told stories of what the invaders did on the island ( they found the women beautiful, and able to fish and fight along side the men; traders were warned about the islands, although the islands were beautiful, they were inhabited by witches and infidels)
Now, if you look up history about the Azores - the islands are described as "uninhabited" when the Portuguese "discovered" them.
Did you know that the current Japanese are not indigenous to those islands??
This seems to be a habit - assassination or assimilation.
Mudpuppy & I live outside the mainstream - that's good. She isn't so bothered about weight, looks or clothes. She's concerned with things of the People - which powwow will we go to. Will her new regalia be ready? Will her aunt Kelly get well ( fighting cancer) will we ( the council) get the long house and garden done this season? and how much will she do?
We can (and should) look at the culture and - maybe -0 if it's right for you - take what we want, what we need.
But stay outside of mainstream culture - it is the culture of consumerism, it is the culture of self- destruction -
Would you like some books???
Janis
When I was younger - I was told that the Azores (we are also Azorean) - a group of islands approx. 750 miles west of Portugal - were conquered by the Portuguese around the 1200's. I was told that we - the Calouro's - could trace our family back to the invasion. I was told stories of what the invaders did on the island ( they found the women beautiful, and able to fish and fight along side the men; traders were warned about the islands, although the islands were beautiful, they were inhabited by witches and infidels)
Now, if you look up history about the Azores - the islands are described as "uninhabited" when the Portuguese "discovered" them.
Did you know that the current Japanese are not indigenous to those islands??
This seems to be a habit - assassination or assimilation.
Mudpuppy & I live outside the mainstream - that's good. She isn't so bothered about weight, looks or clothes. She's concerned with things of the People - which powwow will we go to. Will her new regalia be ready? Will her aunt Kelly get well ( fighting cancer) will we ( the council) get the long house and garden done this season? and how much will she do?
We can (and should) look at the culture and - maybe -0 if it's right for you - take what we want, what we need.
But stay outside of mainstream culture - it is the culture of consumerism, it is the culture of self- destruction -
Would you like some books???
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: Mamita Mala
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Cultural literacy, cultural lies and mainstream society
I guess alot of this depends on what one considers "their" culture to be. For example the Thanksgiving and Columbus issues are pretty much non-issues for me because even though my daughter is only 5 1/2 I was and continue to be honest about what went down because it directly relates to her heritage as an Indigenous/Latina person. While I think it is sad on some level, I feel we are outside the mainstream American culture. However because we live within the mainstream culture she sees for herself and is exposed herself to the images of the Natives having turkey with the pilgrims and of Columbus being welcomed by the Tainos. I really do discuss with her the different perspectives and where they come from ( we'll look at books or go to events/places etc). We don't "celebrate" Thanksgiving in my household. We protest it and I explain to my daughter why and she has the option of participating with me or not. Maegan la Mala
sorcha_aisling <sorcha-aisling@...> wrote:This is something I've struggled with ever since I was in third grade
and my father told me that the Thanksgiving story they told me in
school wasn't true. Why does our culture lie to children? And what
do we tell our own children?
Columbus didn't discover America, he didn't use the word "Indians"
becuase he thought he was in India, and people in Europe in 1492
didn't think the world was flat. But could someone be culturally
literate (mainstream American culture, not multiculturally literate)
without at least knowing that some people do believe these things?
Abraham Lincoln didn't fight the Civil War to free the slaves and
give them American citizenship, but it's a cultural myth so big that
it clouds any discussion of the Civil War.
I do "get" where E.D. Hirsch is coming from, that it helps if people
are on the same page when they're talking. If I was going to do a
curriculum it would be his. When someone says, "It's a modern-day
Cinderella story" I don't want my children to say, "What the heck is
a Cinderella story?" I hope they don't respond to a reference that
the Emperor has no clothes by saying that we have a President, not an
Emperor. I don't think anyone born in this country needs a school to
teach them cultural literacy. But I do wonder what people tell their
children when the cultural myth is a blatant lie. What do you say on
Thanksgiving?
Sorcha
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coyote's corner
Okay - to finish this response.......
Brianna has been raised with the truth. I really don't see how we can do anything other than be truthful about "our" culture. The fact is - the Mashpees ( the folks who fed the Pilgrims) - do not have Federal recognition.
The fact is that the 'creation myths' of the US are insidious and I feel that Brianna has to know the truth.
I teach her about the invasion and the occupation; she knows People that have been in boarding schools - after being kidnapped from their families.
She knows that there are people that treat us differently because we are "Indian"
Some of us protest Thanksgiving.
Some use it as a generic holiday - we are giving thanks for our ancestors that survived.
We are giving thanks for our sisters, brothers, cousins, aunts, uncles, friends that survived.
It's really not so hard - when you wrap your mind around it!
Janis
Brianna has been raised with the truth. I really don't see how we can do anything other than be truthful about "our" culture. The fact is - the Mashpees ( the folks who fed the Pilgrims) - do not have Federal recognition.
The fact is that the 'creation myths' of the US are insidious and I feel that Brianna has to know the truth.
I teach her about the invasion and the occupation; she knows People that have been in boarding schools - after being kidnapped from their families.
She knows that there are people that treat us differently because we are "Indian"
Some of us protest Thanksgiving.
Some use it as a generic holiday - we are giving thanks for our ancestors that survived.
We are giving thanks for our sisters, brothers, cousins, aunts, uncles, friends that survived.
It's really not so hard - when you wrap your mind around it!
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: Mamita Mala
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Cultural literacy, cultural lies and mainstream society
I guess alot of this depends on what one considers "their" culture to be. For example the Thanksgiving and Columbus issues are pretty much non-issues for me because even though my daughter is only 5 1/2 I was and continue to be honest about what went down because it directly relates to her heritage as an Indigenous/Latina person. While I think it is sad on some level, I feel we are outside the mainstream American culture. However because we live within the mainstream culture she sees for herself and is exposed herself to the images of the Natives having turkey with the pilgrims and of Columbus being welcomed by the Tainos. I really do discuss with her the different perspectives and where they come from ( we'll look at books or go to events/places etc). We don't "celebrate" Thanksgiving in my household. We protest it and I explain to my daughter why and she has the option of participating with me or not. Maegan la Mala
sorcha_aisling <sorcha-aisling@...> wrote:This is something I've struggled with ever since I was in third grade
and my father told me that the Thanksgiving story they told me in
school wasn't true. Why does our culture lie to children? And what
do we tell our own children?
Columbus didn't discover America, he didn't use the word "Indians"
becuase he thought he was in India, and people in Europe in 1492
didn't think the world was flat. But could someone be culturally
literate (mainstream American culture, not multiculturally literate)
without at least knowing that some people do believe these things?
Abraham Lincoln didn't fight the Civil War to free the slaves and
give them American citizenship, but it's a cultural myth so big that
it clouds any discussion of the Civil War.
I do "get" where E.D. Hirsch is coming from, that it helps if people
are on the same page when they're talking. If I was going to do a
curriculum it would be his. When someone says, "It's a modern-day
Cinderella story" I don't want my children to say, "What the heck is
a Cinderella story?" I hope they don't respond to a reference that
the Emperor has no clothes by saying that we have a President, not an
Emperor. I don't think anyone born in this country needs a school to
teach them cultural literacy. But I do wonder what people tell their
children when the cultural myth is a blatant lie. What do you say on
Thanksgiving?
Sorcha
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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Mamita Mala
Did someone say books???? Janis, I think for me it was not wanting to deal with teacher's telling my daughter to play a pligrim or tell her as they told me when I was a student that the Rican indigenous culture didn't survive Spanish colonialism that led me to keep the MapucheRican, Carolina, out of mainstream schools. Knowing about the myths and being culturaly literate doesn't mean you have to be a part of it though or perpetuate it. In order to fight the enemy you have to know the enemy right? Maegan la Mala
coyote's corner <jana@...> wrote:
Good for you!!! The straw that broke the camels back for me was the teacher telling my Brianna (Abenaki, Mandan-Hidatsu, Mohawk) that she had to be a pilgrim and that I had to make the outfit! Brianna (aka Mudpuppy) came home and said "the teacher wants......... I'm not
doing it." So she didn't.
When I was younger - I was told that the Azores (we are also Azorean) - a group of islands approx. 750 miles west of Portugal - were conquered by the Portuguese around the 1200's. I was told that we - the Calouro's - could trace our family back to the invasion. I was told stories of what the invaders did on the island ( they found the women beautiful, and able to fish and fight along side the men; traders were warned about the islands, although the islands were beautiful, they were inhabited by witches and infidels)
Now, if you look up history about the Azores - the islands are described as "uninhabited" when the Portuguese "discovered" them.
Did you know that the current Japanese are not indigenous to those islands??
This seems to be a habit - assassination or assimilation.
Mudpuppy & I live outside the mainstream - that's good. She isn't so bothered about weight, looks or clothes. She's concerned with things of the People - which powwow will we go to. Will her new regalia be ready? Will her aunt Kelly get well ( fighting cancer) will we ( the council) get the long house and garden done this season? and how much will she do?
We can (and should) look at the culture and - maybe -0 if it's right for you - take what we want, what we need.
But stay outside of mainstream culture - it is the culture of consumerism, it is the culture of self- destruction -
Would you like some books???
Janis
coyote's corner <jana@...> wrote:
Good for you!!! The straw that broke the camels back for me was the teacher telling my Brianna (Abenaki, Mandan-Hidatsu, Mohawk) that she had to be a pilgrim and that I had to make the outfit! Brianna (aka Mudpuppy) came home and said "the teacher wants......... I'm not
doing it." So she didn't.
When I was younger - I was told that the Azores (we are also Azorean) - a group of islands approx. 750 miles west of Portugal - were conquered by the Portuguese around the 1200's. I was told that we - the Calouro's - could trace our family back to the invasion. I was told stories of what the invaders did on the island ( they found the women beautiful, and able to fish and fight along side the men; traders were warned about the islands, although the islands were beautiful, they were inhabited by witches and infidels)
Now, if you look up history about the Azores - the islands are described as "uninhabited" when the Portuguese "discovered" them.
Did you know that the current Japanese are not indigenous to those islands??
This seems to be a habit - assassination or assimilation.
Mudpuppy & I live outside the mainstream - that's good. She isn't so bothered about weight, looks or clothes. She's concerned with things of the People - which powwow will we go to. Will her new regalia be ready? Will her aunt Kelly get well ( fighting cancer) will we ( the council) get the long house and garden done this season? and how much will she do?
We can (and should) look at the culture and - maybe -0 if it's right for you - take what we want, what we need.
But stay outside of mainstream culture - it is the culture of consumerism, it is the culture of self- destruction -
Would you like some books???
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: Mamita Mala
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Cultural literacy, cultural lies and mainstream society
I guess alot of this depends on what one considers "their" culture to be. For example the Thanksgiving and Columbus issues are pretty much non-issues for me because even though my daughter is only 5 1/2 I was and continue to be honest about what went down because it directly relates to her heritage as an Indigenous/Latina person. While I think it is sad on some level, I feel we are outside the mainstream American culture. However because we live within the mainstream culture she sees for herself and is exposed herself to the images of the Natives having turkey with the pilgrims and of Columbus being welcomed by the Tainos. I really do discuss with her the different perspectives and where they come from ( we'll look at books or go to events/places etc). We don't "celebrate" Thanksgiving in my household. We protest it and I explain to my daughter why and she has the option of participating with me or not. Maegan la Mala
sorcha_aisling <sorcha-aisling@...> wrote:This is something I've struggled with ever since I was in third grade
and my father told me that the Thanksgiving story they told me in
school wasn't true. Why does our culture lie to children? And what
do we tell our own children?
Columbus didn't discover America, he didn't use the word "Indians"
becuase he thought he was in India, and people in Europe in 1492
didn't think the world was flat. But could someone be culturally
literate (mainstream American culture, not multiculturally literate)
without at least knowing that some people do believe these things?
Abraham Lincoln didn't fight the Civil War to free the slaves and
give them American citizenship, but it's a cultural myth so big that
it clouds any discussion of the Civil War.
I do "get" where E.D. Hirsch is coming from, that it helps if people
are on the same page when they're talking. If I was going to do a
curriculum it would be his. When someone says, "It's a modern-day
Cinderella story" I don't want my children to say, "What the heck is
a Cinderella story?" I hope they don't respond to a reference that
the Emperor has no clothes by saying that we have a President, not an
Emperor. I don't think anyone born in this country needs a school to
teach them cultural literacy. But I do wonder what people tell their
children when the cultural myth is a blatant lie. What do you say on
Thanksgiving?
Sorcha
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sorcha_aisling
> But stay outside of mainstream culture - it is the culture ofconsumerism, it is the culture of self- destruction -
>Janis,
>
>
> Would you like some books???
Please recommend some books. I agree about the mainstream culture,
which is why I homebirth, homeschool, and avoid stupid things like
the mall. But I wonder sometimes how much my children need to know
about mainstream culture. I mean, they will move out someday and I
don't want them to be completely lost in society. It's one thing for
me to reject the mainstream culture and live differently. I know
both ways and I made my choice. But I feel like I'm doing them a
disservice to raise them in this country and not tell them what it's
like (they're young right now so it hasn't been a problem so far).
It's the same as when I left Christianity -- I thought I'd raise my
kids to not even know Christianity, but now I'm wondering if I should
expose them to it while they're growing up. I mean, seventy percent
of Americans are Christian; it would be wrong for my kids to not even
know it's out there. I'm confused. And I'm tired on top of it and
not making any sense. But please, recommend some books.
Sorcha
Betsy
**I teach her about the invasion and the occupation; she knows People
that have been in boarding schools - after being kidnapped from their families.**
Once anyone knows this part of American history, it's really hard to
consider any kind of school to be a "good thing" that's really and truly
for "the child's own good." (I don't thiiiiink so!) When you know that
school has been used like a blunt instrument to attempt to crush
people's culture and totally reshape their lives as if they were
modelling clay, not people, then it's hard to think of school as some
benevolent force in kids' lives
There was an anecdote, maybe repeated in Lies My Teacher Told me, about
a school on a reservation where the teachers duct-taped the children's
mouths shut all day, except for lunchtime. Words can't describe how
horrifyingly wrong that is.
Betsy
PS We recently watched the DVD of Rabbit Proof Fence. It's the story
of Australian girls trying to escape from a similar boarding school
situation. My husband drew the conclusion that rape of servant
girls/women was an intentional part of the government's plan of diluting
racial characteristics. I wonder if other people who saw the movie,
read the book, or know the real history would agree with that inference.
that have been in boarding schools - after being kidnapped from their families.**
Once anyone knows this part of American history, it's really hard to
consider any kind of school to be a "good thing" that's really and truly
for "the child's own good." (I don't thiiiiink so!) When you know that
school has been used like a blunt instrument to attempt to crush
people's culture and totally reshape their lives as if they were
modelling clay, not people, then it's hard to think of school as some
benevolent force in kids' lives
There was an anecdote, maybe repeated in Lies My Teacher Told me, about
a school on a reservation where the teachers duct-taped the children's
mouths shut all day, except for lunchtime. Words can't describe how
horrifyingly wrong that is.
Betsy
PS We recently watched the DVD of Rabbit Proof Fence. It's the story
of Australian girls trying to escape from a similar boarding school
situation. My husband drew the conclusion that rape of servant
girls/women was an intentional part of the government's plan of diluting
racial characteristics. I wonder if other people who saw the movie,
read the book, or know the real history would agree with that inference.
Mamita Mala
Betsy, Regarding rape as an assimilationist even genocidal tactic of imperialist nations, I know in Puerto Rico and in Rican history classes here in the United States it was taught that it was the rape of the indigenous Tainos that contributed to the extinction of that culture (and also attached to that how Taina women would kill themselves and their babies to avoid those rapes and having mixed blood babies). Of course then later I find out that the Taino nation was never really complete made extinct but you get the point. Maegan la Mala
Betsy <ecsamhill@...> wrote:
**I teach her about the invasion and the occupation; she knows People
that have been in boarding schools - after being kidnapped from their families.**
Once anyone knows this part of American history, it's really hard to
consider any kind of school to be a "good thing" that's really and truly
for "the child's own good." (I don't thiiiiink so!) When you know that
school has been used like a blunt instrument to attempt to crush
people's culture and totally reshape their lives as if they were
modelling clay, not people, then it's hard to think of school as some
benevolent force in kids' lives
There was an anecdote, maybe repeated in Lies My Teacher Told me, about
a school on a reservation where the teachers duct-taped the children's
mouths shut all day, except for lunchtime. Words can't describe how
horrifyingly wrong that is.
Betsy
PS We recently watched the DVD of Rabbit Proof Fence. It's the story
of Australian girls trying to escape from a similar boarding school
situation. My husband drew the conclusion that rape of servant
girls/women was an intentional part of the government's plan of diluting
racial characteristics. I wonder if other people who saw the movie,
read the book, or know the real history would agree with that inference.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy <ecsamhill@...> wrote:
**I teach her about the invasion and the occupation; she knows People
that have been in boarding schools - after being kidnapped from their families.**
Once anyone knows this part of American history, it's really hard to
consider any kind of school to be a "good thing" that's really and truly
for "the child's own good." (I don't thiiiiink so!) When you know that
school has been used like a blunt instrument to attempt to crush
people's culture and totally reshape their lives as if they were
modelling clay, not people, then it's hard to think of school as some
benevolent force in kids' lives
There was an anecdote, maybe repeated in Lies My Teacher Told me, about
a school on a reservation where the teachers duct-taped the children's
mouths shut all day, except for lunchtime. Words can't describe how
horrifyingly wrong that is.
Betsy
PS We recently watched the DVD of Rabbit Proof Fence. It's the story
of Australian girls trying to escape from a similar boarding school
situation. My husband drew the conclusion that rape of servant
girls/women was an intentional part of the government's plan of diluting
racial characteristics. I wonder if other people who saw the movie,
read the book, or know the real history would agree with that inference.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi
When you know that
Thing is, school is used to crush humanity out of every child,
whatever the culture. Read John Taylor Gatto, "The Underground
History of American Education." makes you shudder.
HeidiC
> school has been used like a blunt instrument to attempt to crushsome
> people's culture and totally reshape their lives as if they were
> modelling clay, not people, then it's hard to think of school as
> benevolent force in kids' livesinference.
> read the book, or know the real history would agree with that
Thing is, school is used to crush humanity out of every child,
whatever the culture. Read John Taylor Gatto, "The Underground
History of American Education." makes you shudder.
HeidiC